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#rockbox log for 2014-11-12

00:00:10[Franklin][Saint] hates plugins! and kittens!
00:00:10[Saint]Thankfully there's no plugins in core yet that have any ridiculous requirements.
00:00:23[Saint]But, you're working on it.
00:00:23[Franklin][Saint]: yet... xworld?
00:00:48 Quit ender` (Quit: Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it... -- George Bernard Shaw)
00:01:03[Franklin][Saint]: how about doom?
00:01:30[Franklin][Saint]: xworld actually doesn't need that much processing power
00:01:40[Franklin]it needs a ton of memory, true.
00:01:46[Saint]We've had this discussion. The iPod Video is several orders of magnitude more powerful than the hardware DooM was intended to run on.
00:02:04*[Franklin] wants to se it run xworld
00:02:04[Saint]xworld needs a bit of resources due to all the behind-the-scenes fuckery for the port transition.
00:02:12[Franklin][Saint]: indeed
00:02:17[Franklin]that's exactly it
00:02:33[Saint]The actual game itself is hilariously simple.
00:02:40[Franklin]for example, the video could be optimized to write the real colors to a framebuffer
00:02:42[Saint]Bastardizing it onto other things...notsomuch.
00:02:56[Franklin]instead of using a palette and needing 3 framebuffers to draw one screen
00:03:05[Franklin]one for the internal buf
00:03:10[Franklin]one for the system buffer
00:03:15[Franklin]and one for the temporary rotation buffer
00:03:42[Franklin]it could write directly to the system buffer, saving 32K
00:03:56[Franklin]but it complicates things a lot
00:06:14[Franklin]so for now, the game will use ~1MB of memory :)
00:06:23[Franklin]a bit more, actually
00:06:39[Franklin]but the audiobuf is *huge*, and since we're already using it, why not use all of it? :)
00:06:54[Saint]*on some targets*
00:07:12*[Franklin] doesn't ever want to see this running on an archos
00:07:14 Join arp0177 [0] (
00:07:47[Saint]and, wildly using resources just because you can goes against embedded programming so much its not even funny.
00:08:12[Saint]in core, we're fighting for every single cycle.
00:08:18[Franklin]is this core?
00:08:51[Saint]That doesn't mean things should be wildly inefficient just because the developer is lazy. ;p
00:08:55[Franklin]indeed, the game is in dire need of optimization
00:09:01[Franklin]but first, it needs to *work*
00:09:05[Franklin]then I can optimize
00:09:11*gevaerts thinks we should remove many game plugins
00:09:14[Franklin]it barely works currently
00:09:24arp0177hoping someone can give some advice w/3.13 on 4th Gen. Can't/won't seem to mount on Mint 17. Any suggestions?
00:09:44gevaertsNot all, things that are playable while you listen to audio are fine
00:10:03[Franklin]yay! so 2048 will stay :D
00:10:35[Franklin]but another world will definitely go
00:10:40 Quit Makinit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:11:20[Saint]gevaerts: I've been thinking that myself
00:11:34[Saint]its audio player software after all...
00:11:43foolshIMO mos plugins should go to a seperate extras repo anyways
00:11:52gevaertsarp0177: ipod 4g I assume?
00:11:59 Join Makinit [0] (
00:12:18arp0177yep. Just a vanilla install too btw.
00:12:27zirra-afknow to figure out how to tell if its a 6g
00:12:37gevaertsDoes dmesg give any hints?
00:12:51zirra-afk[Saint]: I didn't realize it worked on all ipods (more or less) now.
00:12:52[Saint]zirra-afk: is the front metal?
00:12:55zirra-afkThat makes me very happy.
00:13:03[Saint]zirra-afk: its not a 'now' thing.
00:13:03zirra-afk[Saint]: Yes. I think.
00:13:07zirra-afkIt looks like aluminum.
00:13:11zirra-afkYeah, that makes me super happy.
00:13:12[Saint]its been this way for many, many, many years.
00:13:20zirra-afkDamn.. I must have read a lonnnnng time ago.
00:13:20[Saint]Really really.
00:13:33arp0177hid-generic 0003:05AC:1203.0006: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.10 Keyboard [ Rockbox media player] on usb-0000:00:1d.7-1/input1
00:13:33arp0177 - is all.
00:13:35zirra-afkI thought it was only like 2 years ago that I read that battery life was horrible because it was basically ipod4linux with rockbox.
00:13:41zirra-afkBut I have a really bad sense of time.
00:13:49zirra-afkTrying to go find a cable now so I can rockbox-ify it.
00:14:05[Saint]Battery life has never been /that/ terrible.
00:14:17gevaertsarp0177: what does the screen show?
00:14:45arp0177USB Keypad Mode: Multimedia
00:15:07 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 34.0/20141106201515])
00:15:29gevaertsCan you put a bit more from dmesg on a pastebin? I'd like to see everything started from where it detects a USB device plugin
00:15:38zirra-afkHuh. I never rockboxed my new ipod because I thought it was really bad.
00:15:44arp0177sure brb.
00:15:47zirra-afkOh well. Live and learn I guess. But happy day for now.
00:16:14[Saint]zirra-afk: you'll need this:
00:16:33[Saint]Rockbox proper doesn't support bootloader installation for this device at all.
00:17:18zirra-afkBoo. I'll have to do it when I get home since I'm on a mac.
00:17:41[Saint]Ohhh, shit.
00:17:51[Saint]You don't use a Mac regularly, do you?
00:18:00zirra-afkJust for work.
00:18:05zirra-afkNot for copying music from.
00:18:33zirra-afkI just don't have a PC at work. I have one at home though.
00:18:40[Saint]Ah. Good. The standard build won't mount on a Mac because they're stupid and only want to treat it as an iPod and not removable mass stoage.
00:18:49zirra-afkGood to know.
00:18:53[Saint]They see the VID/PID and decide its an iPod and how to treat it.
00:19:02zirra-afkAhhh. That doesn't surprise me.
00:19:06[Saint]Makes sense, but, bad for our use case.
00:21:42gevaertsarp0177: it does find the disk as /dev/sdb
00:22:08gevaerts"mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt" should work
00:22:36 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
00:24:08arp0177Gavaerts - Eureka!
00:24:37arp0177but must be as root to put files on/take off.
00:25:42arp0177any ideas as to why I need to mount via term?
00:26:06gevaertsI have *no* idea how automounters work, I don't use them
00:26:45arp0177thanks heaps anyway. (automount = i'm lazy w/somethings)
00:29:13 Join chrisb [0] (
00:29:51 Quit arp0177 (Quit: Leaving)
00:40:30[Franklin]foolsh: I actually do agree
00:40:41[Franklin]not everyone wants doom or another world
00:40:49[Franklin]or pacbox, etc.
00:41:11 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
00:41:53[Saint]Which is why none of the resources are included and said plugins by themselves are tiny.
00:42:12[Saint]Moving them off to a separate repo solves nothing, and adds complexity that isn't wanted or needed.
00:42:17[Franklin]really? and not legal reasons?
00:42:35*[Franklin] imagines a rockbox package manager
00:42:44[Saint]There's absolutely nothing stopping us from shipping the FreeDooM files.
00:42:59[Saint]Apart from the fact they're huge and largely irrelevant.
00:43:12[Franklin][Saint]: I was referring to pacbox
00:43:24[Saint]...which is why you mentioned DooM...right.
00:43:34[Saint]Easy train of thought to follow there genius. ;)
00:43:36[Franklin]and pacbox :P
00:43:56[Franklin]Easy train of thought to follow there genius. ;)
00:44:39 Join Strife89 [0] (
00:45:08[Franklin][Saint]: but it'd be nice to have a "repo" of plugins that won't get in the main distribution
00:45:12[Franklin](for various reasons)
00:45:29[Franklin]i.e. in development
00:45:38[Saint]That's what gerrit is...
00:45:42[Franklin]or not GPL-compliant (but open-source)
00:45:48[Franklin][Saint]: no, like pre-built bins
00:46:05[Franklin]wikipedia, for instance
00:46:16[Saint]what good would that be? Plugins are versioned. We'd need to build on every run.
00:46:18[Saint]Fuck that.
00:46:32*[Franklin] starts to think
00:46:35[Franklin]aha yes
00:46:36[Saint]And the things that aren't GPL compliant can go fuck themselves.
00:48:27*foolsh generally feels that way about non open source things anyways
00:48:50[Franklin]like wikipedia
00:49:00foolshbut the plugin's are a simple distraction, most are not useful
00:49:00[Saint]What happened with the wikipedia viewer was unfortunate, but, entirely avoidable.
00:49:07[Saint]So, I have little sympathy for it.
00:49:33[Franklin]foolsh: ahem?
00:49:40[Saint]If you try to GPL without clear're gonna have a bad time.
00:50:25*[Franklin] thinks that GPL actually gives people less freedom than no license
00:50:37[Franklin]sure, it "guarantees freedom"
00:50:43[Franklin]but freedom for whom?
00:51:12alexbobpobviously any license gives people less freedom than no license >_>
00:51:51foolshunless it was magical in some way
00:51:51[Franklin]I mean, it just complicate things, and in some cases, restricts freedoms
00:52:00[Franklin]like wikipedia
00:52:07[Saint]Newsflash: Forrests are made of trees - more news on this spooky occurrence at 6pm
00:52:28alexbobpbasically the gpl is intended to give people more freedom than a corporate proprietary license, and also successfully compete with products made under such a license
00:52:52foolshwhile protecting them from liability
00:52:59[Franklin]but then it fails miserably in some cases
00:53:03[Franklin]i.e. wikipedia!
00:53:19[Saint]It only failed there because some asshole decided to not know what he was doing or not care.
00:53:23[Saint]Its not a failing of the license.
00:53:27[Saint]Its someone being an idiot.
00:53:47alexbobpyeah the gpl, though strict, is pretty manageable by people who pay attention
00:53:54*[Franklin] does that often
00:53:54[Saint]^ this
01:07:22 Join Rondom [0] (~rondom@2a01:488:66:1000:2ea3:4892:0:1)
01:08:01zirra-afkThanks for the info guys. I'll likely have more questions tonight, but we'll see. :)
01:08:07zirra-afkReally afk for real now.
01:10:49 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
01:23:54 Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
01:24:04***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:25:58 Quit perky (Quit: Page closed)
01:34:46[Franklin][Saint]: I take it that you are opposed to XWorld getting commited?
01:35:28[Saint]I'm no more opposed to it than any of the other irrelevant plugins.
01:36:01[Franklin][Saint]: why?
01:36:11[Franklin]they don't slow down the player
01:36:16[Franklin]except when they're run
01:36:29[Franklin]and plus, the actual bin is pretty small
01:36:36[Franklin]as you said, its the data that's big
01:36:45[Saint]Its still irrelevant to those that don't use it.
01:36:50[Saint]Which is going to be almost everyone.
01:37:03[Franklin]then why have plugins at all?
01:37:13[Saint]At the end of the day, for most people, its a wholly unwanted and unneeded binsize hit.
01:37:28[Franklin]a tiny one
01:37:55*[Saint] points out that /most/ plugins actually have a use case. Its just the ones you work on that seem to be entirely surplus to requirement.
01:38:07[Saint]Were it up to me, all the games and demos could go die in a fire.
01:38:24[Franklin]2048 is useless?
01:39:56[Saint]Largely, yes.
01:40:03[Saint]A decade ago, I'd disagree.
01:40:06[Saint]Not today.
01:40:32[Saint]This is a time when pretty much everyone is carrying around a device that is vastly more capable and infinitely better suited to gaming.
01:40:43[Saint]WHen Rockbox was born, this was not the case.
01:40:50[Franklin]well, we already have a nice platform
01:40:54[Franklin]why not make the most of it?
01:41:03[Franklin]it seems like an awful waste otherwise
01:41:32[Saint]Because it doesn't make any sense to kludge this shit into an audio player when there's better options that pretty much everyone in the developed world has access to.
01:41:51[Franklin]it's a nice feature to have
01:41:59[Franklin]then why put games on *phones*?!
01:42:19[Franklin]phones are used to call people!!!
01:42:23[Saint]...because that's a device where such things actually make sense?
01:42:26[Franklin]why kludge *games* onto *phones*!?
01:42:40[Franklin]see, you need to be more open to new ideas :)
01:42:47[Saint]You seem to forget that first and formost, Rockbox is an _audio player_.
01:42:54*foolsh is not a hater, if runs code it's a computer to him
01:43:05[Franklin][Saint]: and it's a great one
01:43:07[Saint]And a large majority of people couldn;t care less about plugins
01:43:10[Franklin]so why not make it do other stuff?
01:43:21[Saint]see above
01:43:26foolshbecuase you can
01:43:33[Saint]That's not a valid reason.
01:43:37[Franklin]it is
01:43:37[Saint]I suspect you know that.
01:43:46[Franklin]100% valid
01:43:48[Saint]It most certainly is not.
01:43:57[Franklin]why put games on computers?
01:44:02[Saint]Just because it can do something doesn't mean its a good idea or that it should do it.
01:44:06[Franklin]computers should be used for business!
01:44:07[Franklin]not games!
01:44:14[Franklin]why have games at all?!
01:44:30[Saint]I am so close to muting you its not funny.
01:44:41*[Franklin] is trying to make a point
01:45:44[Saint]A stupid one.
01:45:45the-kyleGames are for fun. If the game is hard to play because it's crammed onto a tiny screen on a processor that's barely powerful enough to play it, what fun is the game?
01:45:57[Saint]You want to open the doors up to anything and everything just because you can.
01:46:01[Saint]And its fucking stupid.
01:46:07[Saint]Its an audio player.
01:46:26[Franklin]well, for great big devices with great big screens that can run games perfectly well
01:46:36[Franklin]games are *wonderful*
01:46:44[Saint]We don't support any of those...
01:46:49[Franklin]ipod classic
01:46:53[Franklin]nice color lcd
01:46:57[Saint]240x320 is "great big"?
01:47:03[Franklin]lol big enough
01:47:14[Franklin]VGA was only 200x320
01:47:38[Saint]That's nice, but, we're well past that.
01:48:06[Saint]As I said, almost everyone has a device in their pockets that is infinitely better suited for these tasks. Has networking, etc. etc. etc.
01:48:46[Franklin]what happens when that dies?
01:48:47[Saint]If this was a decade ago, my position would be very different.
01:48:52[Saint]But, its not.
01:50:00foolshI disagree some what with [Saint] if a device can do something and do it well enough to be usable, then whats the harm
01:50:09[Saint]Why does someone want to play <game> on their tiny DAP screen when they can fire up scamVM or a native port on their smartphone, readily available from <app_store_of_preference>?
01:50:16[Franklin]scamVM lol
01:50:22the-kyleI still like having the ability to make phone calls on my phone, but the battery dies too quickly when the same device is used to play games. That said, I just can't see playing a game on something as tiny as my Clip Zip.
01:50:41[Franklin]but what if its not a tiny device?
01:51:06[Saint]foolsh: I think that's all very well and good only if it doesn't shit on the party for those who don't care about it.
01:51:14[Saint]WHich, in this case, is the majority I feel.
01:51:30[Franklin][Saint]: I'd disagree
01:51:42[Saint]Well, we've established that fact.
01:51:44[Franklin]plenty of people use rockbox just for the games
01:51:57foolshdeaf people
01:51:58[Saint]Prove it.
01:52:07[Franklin]some use it for games and music
01:52:09*foolsh couldn't help himself and feels bad now
01:52:33[Franklin]it's nice to be able to visualize music with a starfield
01:52:45[Franklin]or just play 2048
01:53:16foolshthe gameboy titles I could have as a child cause I was poor
01:53:16[Saint]errr...since when has starfield been a visualizer?
01:53:35[Saint]that's another "infinitely better suited for a smartphone" case.
01:53:53foolshI disagree
01:53:54[Franklin][Saint]: it is
01:54:21foolshfor me at least
01:54:26[Franklin]now I gotta prove it...
01:54:34foolshso whats the harm
01:54:42[Franklin]line 231
01:54:51 Quit shamus (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:55:04 Join shamus [0] (
01:55:10[Franklin]it calculates the peaks and makes the stars pulse to the music
01:56:58[Saint]I dislike saying it, but, you should probably look at forking if you're going to want to continually try and add plugins that the majority are going to see as being largely irrelevant.
01:57:13[Saint]Then this discussion won't need to play out weekly.
01:57:30[Franklin][Saint]: I'd like to avoid that
01:57:38[Saint]Because you'll keep hitting people like me that don't see the point of adding functionality just because you can.
01:57:49[Franklin]no one wants to fork
01:58:13[Franklin]at least not yet... :(
01:58:46[Saint]GNU LibreBox
01:59:45[Franklin]that's a rockbox fork?
02:00:09[Franklin]so why spam the channel with it?
02:00:37[Saint]Spam the channel? Cute.
02:00:58*foolsh supposes the tight integration of plugins with the core is more problematic than anything else
02:00:59[Saint]Its all very well to feel like you're losing an argument, but, being an asshole about it isn;t a solution.
02:01:18foolshIt doesn't have to be such a point of contention
02:01:28[Franklin]foolsh: like what?
02:01:54[Franklin][Saint]: well, we disagree
02:01:57[Saint]foolsh: indeed - some plugins have gone awry
02:02:01[Franklin]I like plugins, you don't
02:02:08[Saint]very tightly coupled to the core.
02:02:09foolshthere must be a happy place
02:02:19[Franklin]not much more to say, is there?
02:02:42 Quit zoktar (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
02:02:55[Saint]You can like them all you want, its when you try pushing them into the core we'll have real difficulties.
02:03:09*[Franklin] never has
02:03:14[Franklin]and never will, it's too ugly!
02:03:15[Saint]While they're sitting on gerrit being harmless, I couldn;t care less.
02:03:32[Saint]Once there's a merge request, I'll care more.
02:03:37*[Franklin] is confuzzled
02:03:49[Franklin]what are we talking about here?
02:04:02the-kyleCouldn't some things be implemented in lua and then just downloaded into Rockbox by those who want them?
02:04:12[Franklin]the-kyle: simple stuff, yes
02:04:19[Saint]simple stuff, sure.
02:04:22 Join zoktar [0] (~zoktar@unaffiliated/zoktar)
02:04:48[Franklin]those with a complexity level of about 2048
02:04:50[Franklin]no more
02:05:01[Franklin]except does lua support bitmaps?
02:05:27the-kyleYeah, I guess it wouldn't work so well for games and such, but that becomes problematic as Rockbox would get larger and larger because of all the integrated games.
02:05:58[Franklin]the-kyle: some are quite useless... rockblox1d
02:06:36*[Franklin] has a name for a possible fork: GameBox
02:07:01[Franklin]it's rockbox without the "useless" music junk :P
02:07:40foolshIt would be nice if some plugs were pulled into rockbox core as utilities/applications, such as mpegplayer and a few others, and all the demos and games dropped into they're own subproject some how
02:07:59foolshrockbox would be pure
02:07:59[Franklin]mpegplayer really should be integrated into core
02:08:14foolshas plugins could exist as they plese
02:08:19[Franklin]same with other "integrated" plugins
02:08:40[Franklin]but then again, the modularity is good to an extent
02:09:31*[Franklin] would like to see mpegplayer integrated into the core though
02:10:02foolshwhy are the plugins versioned the way they are? it seems they could go by major versions
02:10:15 Quit sakax (Remote host closed the connection)
02:10:17[Franklin]foolsh: I think its by plugin API versions
02:10:21foolshah no the memory layout
02:10:23[Franklin]let me see
02:10:51[Franklin]yeah its by api versions
02:11:04[Franklin]and target ids, of course
02:14:42[Franklin][Saint]: we must share some common ground
02:15:17[Saint]I highly doubt it. My main menu doesn't even contain a plugins entry.
02:16:13[Franklin]yes, you told me that
02:16:46*[Franklin] wonders how [Saint] became an Expert
02:17:16[Saint]~6 years of dedication to a community
02:17:22[Saint]that's how.
02:17:34*[Franklin] thanks [Saint] for his dedication
02:17:50[Franklin]really truly
02:18:52[Franklin][Saint]: you're at 1337 posts!
02:23:04[Franklin]anyway, good night
02:23:06 Quit [Franklin] (Remote host closed the connection)
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02:56:45foolshfranklin needs to do a hardware port, then he'll appreciate/understand why (the way it is currently) we don't want a shit ton of plugins to port for every target, and perhaps that needs explained to him like he's five
02:57:48*foolsh nominates franklin to be maintainer of /extra-plugins/
02:57:54 Join cmhobbs [0] (~cmhobbs@fsf/member/cmhobbs)
02:58:50[Saint]The general embedded development philosophy seems largely lost
02:59:32foolshactually the extra-plugins idea makes more sense the more I think about it
03:00:02 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection)
03:00:13foolshleave it to joe public to figure it out
03:03:41foolshhmm yes the more I think about it, a separate /extra-plugins/ could be the happy place between keeping rockbox core pure and letting the children play
03:05:05foolshrockbox devs wouldn't need to maintain it, leave that up to franklin ;)
03:24:06***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
04:12:24 Nick zirra-afk is now known as godzirra (
04:13:00godzirraHey guys.
04:13:25godzirraSo I'm trying to boot my ipod classic into the mode it needs to be in to install EmCore, but instead of DFU, it booted to UMSboot, but i t doesn't show as a drive in windows.
04:14:09 Quit foolsh (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
04:14:25godzirraSame with what I think is DFU mode. It makes the noise like I've got it plugged in
04:15:30[Saint]I think you're confused.
04:15:44[Saint]If you got to UMSboot, the time you needed to be in DFU mode is no over.
04:16:00[Saint]But, in saying that, this isn't the right place to handle this.
04:16:07godzirraYeah, probably not.
04:16:17[Saint]emCORE/Freemyipod and Rockbox are entirely separate entities.
04:16:44godzirrayeah. I know. :/ Just trying to figure out what to do and i'm excited about getting rockbox back on an ipod.
04:18:23[Saint]While you're still here, I will say, though, that the Windows installation process is nightmarish and if you have access to a Linux distribution, I'd use it.
04:18:54[Saint]There's so many ways for the WIndows installation variants to go wrong its not even funny.
04:19:01[Saint]Its a miracle it works for anyone.
04:19:20godzirraOh. okay.
04:19:24godzirraI have a linux laptop right here.
04:32:59godzirraDo you know if there's an EmCore channel?
04:33:54 Join JdGordon_ [0] (
04:34:35[Saint]godzirra: what installatio instructions are you following?
04:34:54[Saint]The official documentation should have made you aware of such a channel's existence.
04:35:14godzirraNope, it's a link of the main page, but I just found it.
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05:13:10godzirra[Saint]: Got everything up and running. Thanks very much.
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06:47:46foolsh[Saint], well it wasn't "to" hard g#1036
06:47:49fs-bluebotGerrit review #1036 at : Plugins-extra: Add support for separate extra plugins repository by Benjamin Brown
06:48:09foolshI haven't tested it yet
06:49:44[Saint]I'm not entirely sure what problem that fixes.
06:49:57[Saint]If someone is building themselves anyway, this is already trivial.
06:50:03[Saint]What am I missing?
06:50:14foolshoff loads the plugin porting to the plugin writers
06:50:45foolshkeeps rockbox from accumulating cruft
06:51:04foolshmakes it easy in a way
06:51:07[Saint]But its only useful to those who are building themselves.
06:52:14[Saint]So, its not a problem (or, shouldn't be) for any of those people.
06:52:31foolshno more "when is X going to get plugins"
06:53:08[Saint] that a problem we have?
06:53:11[Saint]I was unaware.
06:53:26foolshyou're being cynical
06:53:49[Saint]Not deliberately. I genuinely don't see what issue this fixes.
06:53:59[Saint]It seems to address an issue that doesn't actually exist.
06:54:13foolshI'm thinking ahead
06:54:23foolshi solves franklin
06:54:42foolshoboy I'm tired
06:55:54foolshfranklin will never stop writing plugins
06:56:20foolshhe didnt even have any music on his ipod
06:56:32foolshhe will never stop
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07:17:20foolsh[Saint]: yes I see your point of view, but if this can evolve to something that rbutil takes care of, like it does themes, then it starts to get useful
07:18:12foolshand not just for those who can build
07:18:25[Saint]It would need to touch the build system then, and we'd need to keep a cache of plugins that would quickly grow vast.
07:18:31[Saint](due to plugins being versioned)
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07:21:46foolshwhy are they versioned so strictly?
07:22:07foolshseems like there's some room to wiggle there
07:22:28foolshmemory layout is it?
07:23:07[Saint]I honestly don't know.
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07:42:44wodzStrict versioning is the consequence of how we call core functions from plugins. If rb struct changes pointer dereference will be all wrong.
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10:45:41gevaertsIt's much deeper than the rb struct
10:46:40gevaertsThat one is handled with the plugin API versioning we have. What's *not* handled is data structs changing
10:46:47gevaertsAnd that's a tricky one to fix
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10:49:48wodzgevaerts: which data structures you have in a mind?
10:51:21gevaertswodz: I seem to vaguely remember problems with struct screen
10:51:34gevaertsOr viewport
10:52:00wodzdon't we access this through wrapper provided in core?
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10:52:17gevaertsNot really
10:52:26gevaertsWell, definitely not in all cases
10:52:29wodzah, that explains the problem
10:54:07gevaertsThings like "struct viewport" are accessed directly from both plugins and core
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10:55:25gevaertsAnd it's not at all trivial to know when changing some of those things in core will affect the plugin api
10:55:51wodzsure, I was under impression that we wrap such things
10:57:02gevaertsI'm not actually sure if the extra overhead of wrapping wouldn't be too much
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11:02:09wodzI am not saying we should do that
11:03:00gevaertsI realise that, I'm just wondering :)
11:03:22gevaertsAnd to be honest, I haven't really seen the need yet
11:03:57[Saint]right. largely a non-problem.
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11:15:23wodzWhen we talk about plugins - current state of all-or-nothing is pain in the butt when doing new port
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16:43:49fishshopPatched xworld on my Fuze+ runs really well. how do i get the sound to work? and is wolfenstien ready yet?
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18:22:40copperwhy would people want to play games on a Fuze+ or an iPod Classic?
18:22:46copperI don't get it
18:23:38lebelliumbecause it's fun to play on a device which wasn't meant for that when developed
18:24:40lebelliumDoom on the Clip is the best experience ever
18:24:43coppermore than once? for more than 5 minutes?
18:25:25lebellium5 minutes sounds good. It's the "wow" effect
18:26:42lebelliumonce the wow effect is over, you'd better play on a gaming device
18:36:13foolshI admit, I have played the gameboy title "dragon warrior" to completion on the fuze+, working on dragon warrior II currently
18:37:05foolshbut mostly, it's just there when I have nothing else to do
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21:18:57[Saint]There's only a VERY small subset of games that even make any sense to play on <insert_Rockbox_device_here>
21:19:04[Saint]Primarily turn based RPGs.
21:19:27[Saint]Things that don't require responsive, timely, or intricate button combinations.
21:19:38[Saint](or, more than one button press simultaneously)
21:29:07foolshyeah totally, there's just those so much useless, or should I say unpopular plugins that have to ported every single time I was trying to minimize them, I was just kicking around the idea last night, since you and franky were in such a mood of contention yesterday
21:30:57bertrikI've actually played the jewels-like game on a rockbox device
21:31:28foolshactually, I do like that one
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21:36:26foolshBut If any contention was taking place before the games and demos actually made it into the rockbox tree, the "why do X on a DAP, it's a DAP" would be an argument with some weight
21:41:00bertrikbecause X runs on $other_DAP too!
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22:30:33YellowBoyany devs in here?
22:31:46[Saint]Just ask your question.
22:31:52[Saint]If someone can help, they will.
22:35:16[Saint]YellowBoy: ...did you actually have a question?
22:37:36copperin Soviet Russia, the question has _you_!
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22:39:37YellowBoySorry, was idle. I'd like to know what are your criteria to work on a precise device. I'm asking this because I've got a Lenco Xemio-955 and although the firmware is alright, Rockbox seems to... rock.
22:40:40YellowBoyI'll understand if the answer is "no, won't work on it", it's just a request I guess.
22:40:41[Saint]We don't do device requests. Each and every device port occurs because a developer owns that particular device and wanted it to happen.
22:40:54[Saint]Basically, the best candidate for this is you.
22:40:55copperiPod Nano ripoff
22:41:30YellowBoyYeah, I see. I guess I'm gonna have to work it out myself.
22:41:39YellowBoyThanks though.
22:41:44[Saint]YellowBoy: this ought to clue you in:
22:42:03[Saint]If it seems like a steep curve, its is.
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22:42:50YellowBoy>You will need skills in electronics and embedded programming in C and assembler
22:42:55YellowBoyholy shit
22:43:07copperwhat'd you expect?
22:43:21YellowBoySorry for asking though I just noticed the bold text down there.
22:43:48YellowBoyYeah, I guess something like that...
22:44:55[Saint]For a competent developer, with experience in bare metal embedded programming, a new port is multiple hundreds of hours work.
22:45:34[Saint]And that's if you're lucky enough to have datasheets for the components.
22:45:41copperheavy metal programming
22:45:47YellowBoyAnd all of that because companies won't allow you to choose what you want to run with your machine.
22:45:53[Saint]If you don't, you can add a hundred hours or so of reverse engineering on top of that,
22:47:05[Saint]For someone who was literally just starting fresh and had to learn C and assembly as they go, its no exaggeration to state that its easily >1000 man hours work.
22:47:43gevaertsAlthough of course nobody has actually kept track carefully :)
22:48:18[Saint]Nuts to that. I suspect if anyone did so they'd end up slashing their wrists. ;)
22:48:49[Saint]But, there's a lot of questions to answer about the device before one even gets to that stage.
22:49:03[Saint]If you don't actually have a way're pretty much fucked.
22:49:09gevaertsIt has to be said though that things vary. If a device is very similar to another already supported one, it gets a lot easier
22:49:26[Saint]Right. That's true.
22:49:54[Saint]First thing would be to assess what hardware you're working with.
22:49:55 Quit edhelas (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
22:50:16[Saint]Then establish the relationship between the device and its firmware upgrade process (if such a thing even exists)
22:50:34[Saint]Then see if the image is signed or in any way verified...
22:50:52[Saint]NewPort page has it covered. It seems like a lot of stuff. Because, it is.
22:52:33YellowBoyThey say they have firmware updates but I see no such thing on the net... Although they must have a update protocol because the system partition is visible to me but I can't mount it.
22:56:32[Saint]Pretty much impossible to find any hardware info on the thing.
22:57:07[Saint]Not really a concern unless you're actually interested in going forward.
22:58:47YellowBoyThe worst is that I'm probably gonna have to do all from scratch, there seems to be only one touch screen player supported...
22:59:34YellowBoyYeah well, I don't think it'll be worth the effort. Thanks anyways.
23:00:20YellowBoyI'll eventually look it up some more on my own but I don't think that I'll get somewhere...
23:00:48[Saint]If you do want a Rockbox supported device, I highly recomment the iPod Video or iPod Classic
23:01:07[Saint]The latter is foolishly expensive now because it got decomissioned and now everyone wants one.
23:01:24[Saint]The former find, but, still in the realms of possibility.
23:02:08[Saint]There's also they el'cheapo Sansa Happy Meal devices (Clip, Clip+, Clip Zip, etc.)
23:02:39 Join edhelas [0] (
23:02:53foolshgo with a fuze variant if you want a better screen size
23:03:40[Saint]The Fuzes are getting harder to find now too.
23:03:47[Saint]In good condition, at least.
23:06:11YellowBoyThanks, should have took a look here before buying my device. I got pretty interested by the Sansa ones. Although the screen is small, I heard it has some amazing features and I liked the mixtape and ALiEn themes.
23:07:00[Saint]The only issue I have with them is that they feel cheap.
23:07:16[Saint]They don't _feel_ like a well made, built to last device.
23:07:18 Join stripwax [0] (~Miranda@rockbox/developer/stripwax)
23:07:20[Saint](because they aren't)
23:08:04[Saint]They have thin plasticy cases that creak under slight pressure, and...don't even get me started on those clips, they're so fragile they break if you look at them the wrong way.
23:09:12YellowBoyWhat you'd recommend then? iPod's are quite expensive even now...
23:11:26[Saint]I prefer the iPods because of their build quality.
23:11:58[Saint]HiFiman have excellent build quality as well.
23:12:14YellowBoyI want to change my firmware because it's ugly and contains spelling errors... I have not fully tested it yet but I suspect that it'll have bugs.
23:12:18[Saint]As well as iBasso, but the latter two are _very_ expensive devices.
23:13:12[Saint]The iPod Video 5/5.5G isn't /that/ expensive, considering.
23:13:12YellowBoyThe Apple firmware is not ugly and glitchy. iOS is, however.
23:13:31[Saint]Impossible to buy new, but, they're fairly available in the secondhand market.
23:13:46[Saint]The Apple firmware has its quirks too.
23:13:57[Saint]If it didn't, Rockbox wouldn't exist for it.
23:14:31[Saint]Rockbox pretty much exists because of manufacturers making such a hilariously broken operating system that it renders perfectly good hardware basically unusable.
23:15:10YellowBoyI believe you, but I can't buy new ones of those and I bought a new player because my iPod Touch left me recently.
23:15:13[Saint]That's been the case for almost every device port. Thogh, some of them the original firmware really wasn't /that/ bad and it was more of a "because I can" thing.
23:15:46YellowBoyOld ones tend to last less for obvious reasons.
23:16:29[Saint]If you're lucky, you could claim the device to be defective or state that it doesn't meet expectations and return it to the place of purchase.
23:16:39[Saint](I get the impression this was purchased recently?)
23:17:05YellowBoyBut they'll check if it's true.
23:17:51YellowBoyAnd they don't accept returns once out of the box
23:18:05YellowBoyRidiculous, I know.
23:18:19[Saint]That's, uhhhh, quite different to the way things work here. Wow.
23:18:42YellowBoyThey don't want to lose their precious money.
23:22:29 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@2602:306:bce1:8c20:176:e808:79bf:7439)
23:23:00YellowBoyYep. Still, the firmware doesn't totally suck: it has nice features like Flash compatibility (even offline, I really didn't expect that one) and it reads FLAC (that was a must for me but the retarded vendors had no idea if there even WAS a single player compatible with that format in their shop)
23:23:31YellowBoyIt could be better though. It could have Doom ;)
23:23:39[Saint]FLAC on such a low capacity device is an...interesting choice.
23:24:33YellowBoyI don't know how it'll turn out but I don't want to convert my whole library to mp3, you see.
23:24:40[Saint]I'd be willing to bet that it couldn't recreate the stream accurately enough for it to make any realistic difference, or even a perceptible one (in double blind testing)
23:24:59[Saint]LAME has come a looooooooong way.
23:26:09[Saint]Most people can't discern a difference between FLAC and mp3 320 with a modern LAME implementation these days.
23:26:51[Saint]Those who can can usually only do so with specific reference tracks they've trained themselves to hear specific encoding artefacts in.
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23:30:30 Join franklin [0] (
23:30:30 Nick franklin is now known as [Franklin] (
23:33:20[Franklin]foolsh: I'm having mixed feelings about having a "repo" for plugins
23:33:45*[Franklin] thinks it unnecessary complexity
23:34:24[Saint]The fact that it would need to be tied to the build system makes it so, yes.
23:34:34[Saint]Well, many facts make it so.
23:36:06[Franklin][Saint]: any other ways this could be implemented?
23:36:16[Franklin]perhaps tying "extra" plugins to the "fullinstall" option?
23:36:40[Saint]If its only for those building for themselves anyway, its largely useless.
23:37:13[Saint]It'd only be marginally useful (IMO) if it had rbutil and build system integration.
23:37:21[Franklin]anyway, even the most extravagant plugins are *tiny*
23:37:26[Franklin]xworld for ipod classic is 52K
23:37:54[Franklin]doom is only ~390K
23:38:47[Franklin]in fact the "clock" plugin is actually the biggest plugin there is!
23:38:57[Franklin]472K for classic
23:39:53[Franklin]foolsh: you're going to have to clearly define what an "extra" plugin is
23:41:38[Franklin]it makes no sense to do it by memory usage
23:41:50[Franklin]because if people don't run the plugin, it won't matter
23:41:58[Franklin]so then it'd be by binary size, right?
23:42:03[Saint]That's a fallacy.
23:42:15[Franklin]how so?
23:42:40[Saint]That if people don't run the plugin, it won't matter.
23:42:45[Saint]Its demonstrably untrue.
23:42:51[Saint]But, we've had this discussion.
23:45:38[Franklin][Saint]: so you're saying that memory usage would be the deciding factor?
23:45:43[Franklin]that makes no sense
23:46:03[Saint]Are you just inventing things now?
23:46:09[Saint]Where the fuck did I say that?
23:46:32[Franklin][Saint]: I assumed that since bin size wasn't, memory usage was
23:46:38[Franklin]how else can it be decided?
23:47:36 Quit YellowBoy (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:49:26[Franklin]would you go as far as to disable all plugins entirely?
23:50:43[Saint]Not the viewers or encoders. They serve a useful purpose.
23:50:56[Saint]But, if I had my way, the games and demos would be out on their ass, yes.
23:51:01 Join ZincAlloy1 [0] (
23:52:12 Quit Strife89 (Quit: Leaving)
23:52:52[Franklin][Saint]: well then... :)
23:54:01[Franklin]I can't say I agree with that :)
23:54:03 Join ZincAlloy2 [0] (
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