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#rockbox log for 2015-06-02

00:06:19 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
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00:32:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:54:14 Quit ender` (Quit: Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. -- Steven Weinberg)
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01:12:05 Join lvxz [0] (
01:13:13lvxzHi. Can anyone do a 15 seconds hack and make Rockbox support ".database.ignore" and ".database.unignore" in addition to period-lacking versions?
01:13:49lvxzCurrently, "database.ignore" sits in the middle of my files and frankly it's ugly.
01:13:58lvxzI know, it's silly, but I see no downsides. :)
01:16:00[Saint]Just set the file properties to hidden
01:16:11[Saint]Though, frankly...c'mon man. ;)
01:16:39lvxzI'm on Linux.
01:17:02[Saint]If you set the file properties to hiden via your host OS, and then select the "supported" view in the file browser in Rockbox, you won't see it.
01:17:32lvxzAnd I wouldn't ask if it weren't, I imagine, just a matter of adding a ' || ".database.ignore"' to the code. ;)
01:18:06[Saint]I'm not entirely sure what you running Linux has to do with the price of fish.
01:18:23[Saint]Do you think that in some way prevents you from setting the hidden file attribute?
01:18:27[Saint](it doesn't)
01:18:56lvxzAh, good point. I didn't think.
01:19:02[Saint]You could also just set the show files option to music.
01:19:10[Saint](where it'll just show audio and playlists)
01:19:29lvxzStill, my original point is fair too; it is pretty much a typical case for a .hidden file.
01:19:31[Saint]I didn't mean to sound overly aggressive there, I was just seriously confused.
01:20:27lvxzDon't worry, you don't.
01:24:04[Saint]Actually...shit, just set the file browser show files option to "supported"
01:25:14 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection)
01:25:53lvxzYesss I know I could, but I display all files on principle everywhere.
01:26:24lvxzdatabase.(un)ignore is a meta-file, and the . prefix is made specially for them.
01:26:31[Saint]To show a bunch of files you can't interact with in any user friendly fashion?
01:27:16[Saint]Was that just stringing a bunch of words together?
01:27:21lvxz...Yes? I edit .dotfiles pretty regularly. I want and need to see every file in a directory.
01:27:46[Saint]Which dotfiles would those be?
01:27:57[Saint]The ones in question have zero content.
01:28:02[Saint]Have fun editing those...
01:28:27lvxzWait. We're digging into a digression. The point is not really whether I should display all files as I browse my directories or not.
01:28:59[Saint]Well, it is when you're wanting to add a feature than can be replicated with native functionality.
01:29:05lvxzThe point is that database.(un)ignore is, exactly as you say, a file that the user is not generally supposed to edit, or even think about, and as such, should be generally hidden.
01:29:25[Saint]So set the file browser to "supportted" and you'll never see it.
01:30:22[Saint]We wouldn't be particularly willing to do this as it would require a setting to bypass this behavior.
01:30:41[Saint]ANd we really try to refrain from adding settings for the hell of it.
01:30:46lvxzThis is silly logic. Just because a room is rarely visited is no reason to keep it messy.
01:30:58lvxzAnd no, it hardly would.
01:31:29[Saint]And what if the user wants to remove the files manually on the device but can't because they're automatically hidden.
01:31:41[Saint]I understand. It is natural to fail to see use cases outside your own.
01:31:44lvxz;a=blobdiff;f=apps/tagcache.c;h=91220a3517160d84c3b7c11160c24974de24d099;hp=4ddf1d2d2d13c7b0b460a83d27015e5c66f7ea42;hb=c31ffae440b6e5b3ef28d584cd2a8f8b0c471c4e;hpb=2ed41f90201f1dd69e131837d051c6d41ac53721 (sorry, not sure if I can remove the cache argument)
01:31:44[Saint]But we need to.
01:32:29[Saint]We need all files to be visible to the user under the file browser.
01:32:53[Saint]In order to do as you want, we would need to add a file browser view configuration or a setting to govern this behavior.
01:33:05[Saint]Which is overkill.
01:33:24lvxzJust support both filenames−−both prefixed and unprefixed.
01:34:03lvxzIf the user's file browser doesn't display hidden files for some reason, he will use the unprefixed filename on his device.
01:34:10[Saint]We still need it to be visible if desired.
01:34:20[Saint](on device)
01:34:30lvxzIf so, then why is .rockbox itself a hidden directory? :/
01:34:47lvxzIf you have a no-hidden-files/directories policy?
01:34:49[Saint]On device, it isn't.
01:35:13 Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
01:35:14[Saint]Change the file browser view and it'll pop up as any other directory or file.
01:35:52[Saint]Having set your file browser to show all I would have thought you would have noticed this.
01:36:33lvxzYou're telling me, 'we won't support the dot-prefixed version because the user needs to be able to see all files on his device in his file browser'.
01:37:12lvxzIf this is a concern, if the user needs to be able to create and remove database.(un)ignore files at will (which he does), then he will still be able to−−by using the non-dot-prefixed verions.
01:37:34lvxzSupporting the dot-prefixed versions literally disrupts nothing.
01:38:10[Saint]Except for the fact that you would have files hidden from the user that behave like no other files in Rockbox.
01:38:11lvxzI really didn't expect this to be debatable.
01:38:17[Saint]I call that a disruption.
01:38:24lvxz'Behave'? What does that even mean?
01:38:48[Saint]Meaning that would be the only file(s) in the entire system to behave this way.
01:39:11[Saint]For no obvious reason barring questionable aesthetics.
01:39:41lvxzWell TBH, maybe this behaviour should be changed, too. For instance I noticed that 'games' directory is created in the root directory which really should be '.games' as well, unless the user is expected to manually edit his save files. ;)
01:40:23[Saint]The user can navigate to *.rock files and launch them as a viewer.
01:40:28[Saint]It makes no sense to hide them away.
01:40:34lvxzAre there any user-friendly (your own phrasing) files in the 'games' directory? :/
01:40:49lvxzIf no, then by your own logic it should be called−−oh. Apologies, then.
01:41:21lvxzStill, consider one more argument.
01:41:47lvxzdatabase.(un)ignore files are probably the only files that mix with the user's regular files.
01:41:56[Saint]Just to be clear, I can see your point - but I have to try to look at this on a much wider scale, taking in user confusion into account (a user could easily forget about the hidden dotfiles and wonder why their system isn;t behaving as they expect it to)
01:42:35lvxzIf a user has a directory with lots of files beginning with 'd', he can't very quickly figure whether this dir is ignored or not, which he would if it were dot-prefixed.
01:42:35[Saint]If the use case was not already possible, this would probably be a different story.
01:42:56[Saint]But users can quite easily hide away any files that Rockbox can't directly interact with in a sensible way.
01:42:57lvxzThis is an argument for breaking the general naming consistency.
01:43:36[Saint]Basically what I am saying is that I can see this creating more harm than good, and the functionality is already available with no modification.
01:43:38lvxzUsers edit files on their devices outside of Rockbox (i.e., on their desktop file browsers) as often as inside it.
01:44:14lvxz"a user could easily forget about the hidden dotfiles and wonder why their system isn;t behaving as they expect it to"−−this is not an argument because we're not forcing users to use the dotted form.
01:44:38lvxzWe can add the information about the dotform being supported as a footnote.
01:44:54[Saint]No, we're not, but they could quite easily forget it exists after the fact, even if it was their choice to use it.
01:46:11[Saint]Another thing I would be wary of is this snowballing.
01:46:30[Saint]Users wanting to add dotfile support for configs, playlists, etc.
01:46:47[Saint]As surely those cases are equally valid.
01:47:05lvxzBut they aren't. See my point about the 'mid-file-list confusion'.
01:47:25lvxz(01:41:49) lvxz: database.(un)ignore files are probably the only files that mix with the user's regular files.
01:48:02lvxzWhat would be other cases?
01:48:25[Saint]People place configs in folders (for an audiobook or podcast configuration, for instance.), playlists.
01:48:35 Quit babylonlurker (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
01:48:46lvxzHmm. All right.
01:49:09[Saint]Just to be crystal clear I do see your point and I do see the potential merits in it.
01:49:17[Saint]But I can also see the potential flaws.
01:49:20lvxzI didn't expect this to evolve into a discussion, but thank you.
01:49:46lvxzMaybe I'll submit the patch and try to find more arguments until then. ;)
01:49:57[Saint]I'm not trying to drag your idea into the ground, I think it is perfectly valid, but I think it wise to be wary of things that add the potential for needless confusion.
01:50:17lvxzNo problem. :) Thank you for engaging my suggestion.
01:53:03[Saint]From my point of view it boils down to (again, from my POV) these dotfiles still needing to be viewed on device if the file browser is set to display "all" files.
01:53:08[Saint](all files is all files)
01:53:32[Saint]With that in mind, the functionality already exists by virtue of using the "supported" file browser view.
01:54:31[Saint]think if the "all" setting in the file browser as the functional equivalent of "show hidden files and folders" on $arbitrary_operating_system
01:54:35[Saint]*think of
01:55:16[Saint]One specific file type that breaks that expectation, however trivial, warrants discussion.
01:56:37lvxzJust to make sure I understand. You're saying that Rockbox's manner of choice of hiding unwanted files for aesthetics' sake is not dotted-undotted, but recognized-unrecognized extension?
01:57:54[Saint]Basically, yes.
02:00:41[Saint]I know it may seem as though I'm being deliberately argumentative solely to rain on your parade for seemingly no reason, but like it or not part of my "job" here is to play Devil's Advocate and expand on things like this with thought experiments that consider all use cases and user simplicity.
02:01:06lvxzI trust completely that you have good intentions. :)
02:01:27[Saint]Thank you, I appreciate that.
02:02:53[Saint]To be clear I also appreciate your interest in our fine project and your want of expanding on its functionality.
02:03:25fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 2ec6fbc, 255 builds, 27 clients.
02:08:38lvxzThe project is awesome. It's clearly a labour of love. Consider small details such as (I use a Clip+) feature to put a setting in more than one slot of the Quick Screen, the feature to send settings into it to begin with, the real-time update, as you change the settings, of the interface (scrollbar width) or behaviour (changing the LCD highlighting time−−when I first scrolled into the 'off' option and the screen turned black, I thought the device
02:09:18lvxzOr minutiae such as two modes of displaying overlong menu entries.
02:09:30TorCI'm having issues with text viewer bookmarking not working on Clip Zip (dev and stable) but working on Clip+ (again, both)
02:09:35 Quit CustosLimen (Remote host closed the connection)
02:09:43fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 378 seconds.
02:09:47fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 2ec6fbc result: 0 errors 2 warnings
02:09:53 Join CustosLimen [0] (~CustosLim@unaffiliated/cust0slim3n)
02:12:46lvxz...Or that, I believe, scrolling behaves the same way in contexts as diverse as scrolling a document, scrolling a menu, and rewinding a song.
02:12:56 Quit Markmaster_ (Quit: Markmaster_)
02:13:07lvxzIt really gives the sense of well-designed software.
02:13:31fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 3e5e9cf, 255 builds, 27 clients.
02:14:17 Join Markmaster [0] (
02:14:50lvxzNot to mention that not even VLC supports .lrc files. :P
02:16:13[Saint]..yeah it does.
02:16:40lvxzRight, it does! But not when album art is displayed.
02:16:53[Saint]Ah, right, granted.
02:17:20TorCThe lack of bookmarking on the Zip is particularly annoying because with no bookmarks there is no way (that I've found) even to get to the first page of a long file without tediously scrolling through the entire file. Reopening the file simply results in returning to the last page viewed (mostly a Good Thing).
02:18:02lvxzOh, by the way of the text_viewer. Where are the per-file viewer settings stored? I tried to find this, but couldn't.
02:18:48TorCI just wrote a patch for the manual on the viewer settings file
02:19:29TorCIt is .rockbox/rocks/viewers/tv_file.dat
02:19:36lvxzThank you. :)
02:20:11TorCIt may take a bit for the patch to get into the manual, since I'm not ready to deal with gerrit to push it through
02:20:14fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 404 seconds.
02:20:17fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 3e5e9cf result: All green
02:20:41TorCIf you have it and want to help, it can be found at
02:23:28[Saint]lvxz: */rocks/viewers/tv_file.dat
02:24:33lvxzThanks. I opened a truckload of documents before I thought to change the default font, and I would hate to re-change it manually.
02:25:10lvxzI'll just delete this file.
02:27:15[Saint]Oh, by the way, since you mentioned the quickmenu...
02:27:35[Saint]Are you aware that you can replace the quickscreen with a list of shortcuts instead?
02:28:18lvxzYou mean, pressing the button will bring the list of shortcuts?
02:28:19[Saint](allowing you an infinite (well, not really...but, yeah) number of possible quickscreen setting outcomes, as opposed to just 4.
02:28:59lvxzCan you give me a quote from the manual, so that I can Google it to look this feature up?
02:29:06[Saint]Even for an experienced user, I very highly recommend reading our fine manual.
02:29:09[Saint]Yep. Sec.
02:29:12lvxzI did. >_<
02:29:17lvxzWell, to a large part.
02:29:37 Quit Markmaster (Quit: Markmaster)
02:30:06[Saint]Section 8.5.3 "use shortcuts menu instead of quick screen"
02:31:02[Saint](it isn't device specific so it doesn't really mater the target device the manual is built for for this instance)
02:31:04lvxzI have the HTML version on my Sansa. :)
02:31:16[Saint] poor bastard.
02:31:42lvxzWhat's bad about that? I don't read it on the text_viewer... I mean, I *did* that, but only once. ;)
02:31:59[Saint]It is a widely held theory that only masochists use the text viewer. :)
02:32:19lvxzI basically keep my player plugged in all the time and listen to music from it.
02:32:20[Saint]Especially on the Sansas.
02:32:36[Saint](tiny, terrible, screens)
02:32:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:32:45lvxzSo I keep the docs on it, too, because why not−−it's as accessible as on my PC's drives.
02:33:02[Saint]Aha, right, yeah - that makes some sense.
02:33:13[Saint]I thought you were actually using the text viewer...uuuuugh.
02:33:32lvxzAs for masochism, you have a point. But I just like small things to fiddle with.
02:33:50[Saint]Rockbox has a slew of things that are fun as a novelty but basically useless in the greater scheme of things.
02:33:59[Saint]Case in point, our virtual keyboard.
02:34:26lvxzRight. It probably won't get any more proof-of-concept than that.
02:35:02lvxzAs for the keyboard, I've read threads saying that full voice recognition of players is infeasible because of memory limits.
02:35:07lvxz*on players
02:35:27lvxzBut now I thought, maybe simple letter-by-letter recognition of spelling would work?
02:35:31[Saint]I have a feeling that if Rockbox were to be invented in this day and age it would not have the same kind of "lets just throw shit at the wall until something sticks" feel about it.
02:35:32[Franklin]and, from [Saint]'s perspective, all the games :P
02:35:38TorCWell, nearly useless is not the same as useless. I've been glad of the virtual keyboard to fix my folder_advance_list.txt a few times.
02:35:41[Saint]Damn skippy.
02:36:25[Franklin]and the demos
02:36:36[Saint]The games are fun for occasionally showing someone "Hey, look at this ridiculous hilarious shit my DAP can do!"
02:36:49lvxzHa. Speaking of demos.
02:36:51[Saint]But, besides that, the novelty wears out _reaaaaally_ quickly.
02:37:09[Saint]ANd, yes, demos.
02:37:13[Franklin]I suppose
02:37:17[Saint]Hell...even half the viewers.
02:37:25lvxzI have always been sceptical about them, but the 'mosaique' is positively awesome.
02:37:41lvxzI looked at it at like three minutes and was actually entertained.
02:37:56lvxzYou can tell its author. :)
02:37:56[Franklin]2048 and doom are the only fun games :P
02:38:04[Franklin]and xworld
02:39:44[Saint]If you REALLY hate yourself, we have a FROTZ viewer so you can play Z-Machine interactive text based adventure games with an even more horrible keyboard than the virtual keyboard.
02:40:29[Franklin]I've recently been thinking about Elite
02:40:54[Franklin]all you really need to play it is pitch and roll
02:41:09[Saint]lvxz: if you like mosaique you might also like 'bounce'.
02:41:23[Saint]You can get some fairly interesting patterns going with it.
02:42:12[Franklin]the original version used like 20K of memory
02:43:39lvxz[Saint] huh, I'd never guess it is customizable without reading the manual.
02:44:42[Saint]My favorite "viewer" is the credits
02:44:47lvxzBut when you think about it, every single arbitrary numerical value that's bigger than, say, 4, should be customizable in a piece of software. ;)
02:44:55[Saint]Especially if you skip to entry number 545
02:45:06 Quit krabador (Quit: Take The Time)
02:45:19[Franklin]I need 0xFF as a bitmask
02:46:27[Saint]But not entry number 568.
02:46:37lvxzThe credits are kind of bugged in the sense that the long names don't scroll to be visible, and the very last ones are not scrollable-to at all.
02:46:47[Saint]That Franklin Wei guy is a real dick...whoever he is.
02:47:23[Saint]Hahahaha, just yankin' your chain.
02:47:34[Franklin]time to submit a patch entitled "Remove that saint dude"
02:48:00[Saint]You'll have to figure out what my real name is first.
02:48:08[Saint]...though its not impossible.
02:48:23[Franklin]let's see... number 545
02:50:05[Saint]Hmmmm...OK...that's weird. I didn't expect the list numbers to change.
02:50:12[Saint]I thought we appended.
02:50:13[Franklin]no... the credits file is offset by 10
02:50:31[Saint]Ah, I'm safe! :P
02:50:33[Franklin]so it's 555
02:50:42[Franklin]... Mr. Pearce!
02:51:05[Saint] :)
02:51:12[Saint]Hey, look over there!
02:51:42[Franklin]but really
02:51:50[Franklin]Elite ought to be possible
02:52:08[Saint]Entirely so, yes.
02:52:11[Franklin]most of the framework code is already available
02:52:12[Saint]At least in theory.
02:52:18lvxzWhat's 'elite'?
02:52:32[Franklin]it's the greatest game in history
02:52:48lvxzOh, got it. :)
02:53:00lvxzLooking it up now.
02:53:26[Saint]A free roaming space exploration game.
02:53:33[Franklin]in 1984... in 20K of RAM
02:53:35lvxzI'm old, but not as old as to remember it first-hand.
02:53:37[Franklin]something like that
02:53:40[Saint]WHich has been re-imagined as Elite: Dangerous
02:53:44lvxzRight, definitely not that old. ;)
02:53:45[Saint]...which is AWESOME.
02:54:28[Saint]lvxz: Holy Hell, what on Earth do you consider to be old then?
02:54:48[Saint]I guess I must be bloody ancient in your eyes. :)
02:55:41lvxzNo, I meant that I'm not that old to remember that game.
02:55:59lvxzMine was probably the first generation whose first computer was a PC.
02:58:08[Saint]YEs, but you said "I'm old, but..."
02:58:45[Saint]"I'm old, but I don't remember a game launched in 1984 which was played well into the 90s" makes me feel like Methuselah.
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03:00:02[Saint]I think the Acornsoft version (it was Acornsoft that picked it up, yeah?) was implemented in just under 32k
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03:01:51[Saint]I may be misremembering.
03:02:17[Saint]I'm fairly sure, but not positive, that it was Acornsoft that picked it up after the second implementation when no one else touched it.
03:02:23[Saint]ANd they made a killing on it, too.
03:02:31[Saint]It was a massively successful game.
03:03:27[Franklin]beautifully implemented, too
03:03:43[Saint]Indeed so.
03:09:41[Franklin]32K... that's the size of an icon for a game :P
03:16:01 Quit [Franklin] (Quit: Lost terminal)
03:20:04 Part lvxz
03:44:22TorCWell, looks pretty clear that the lack of bookmarking on Clip Zip is a Zip specific bug.
03:44:31 Join keytar [0] (~keytar@
03:44:37TorC^Text viewer bookmarking, that is.
03:46:14TorCI just got a new zip, put the latest dev build on in, and still cannot set bookmarks in text viewer. Works correctly on two Clip+, one with both dev/stable, the other with stable.
03:48:25TorC*by latest build, I mean it: 3e5e9cf-150602
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03:50:48keytarwould having a swapped h/d for an SSD in an iPod video make a difference. first time installation and very sluggish, intermittent controls
03:51:06keytarcannot seem to find any info suggesting this.. but .. ?
03:52:00keytarplaylist problems / unable to change fonts / cannot update db etc...
03:54:08 Quit hannes3 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
03:55:20keytarerror accessing playlist control file.... a constant
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10:07:12keytarhas anyone here ran rockbox for 5th gen ipod video ?
10:14:11[Saint](awesome nick, btw)
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10:15:23[Saint]keytar: Do you have a specific question regarding Rockbox on the 5/5.5G iPods?
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10:36:46keytarwell, I ran rockbox for a day and found it to be very unresponsive
10:37:13keytari bought a second hand model and the hdd was replaced for an SSD of 30gig
10:38:02keytari'm assuming that is the problem, but I'm unsure
10:38:18keytari used the automatic installation
10:38:27keytareverything went well during installation
10:38:41keytari don't see why it behaves so awfully
10:39:23haydencan you elaborate on 'awfully' perhaps?
10:39:53keytarall aspects of the software.. ie. loading N eq SETTING
10:39:58keytaroops sorry caps
10:40:09keytarloading the EQ would take 1 minute
10:40:22haydenHow many bands are you trying to use?
10:40:27keytarskipping to the next track quickly would freeze
10:40:39keytarthe database could not be loaded
10:40:45keytarthe font files would disappear
10:40:54haydenIf you try to use a full parametric EQ like a 'dumb' GEQ, it is woefully inefficient.
10:41:09keytarit seems every function i tried had problems
10:41:13haydenThe iPod 5/5.5G only has an 80MHz core.
10:41:22haydenIt isn't a particularly powerful device.
10:41:35keytarok, perhaps I'm expecting miracles
10:41:57keytarwell, i was wondering if there was a stripped down version
10:42:04haydenusing the parametric EQ incorrectly is a surefire way to make this device perform like shit.
10:42:13keytaras i do like the fact i can drag and drop
10:42:21haydeneach band requires about 8MHz addition cpu overhead.
10:42:25keytarthat is basically the only reason i wanted to try rockbox
10:43:11haydenThen you'll need to look into how to correctly configure a full parametric equalizer.
10:43:20keytarok, i got you.. as a fresh install, even before i checked out the EQ, it seemed too slow
10:43:23haydenBecause really you only need to be using 2 or three bands at most.
10:43:52haydenthere are 10 bands, but it isn;t the intention the the user will use all of them.
10:44:03keytaryes, the EQ actually is something i won;t use too much anyway, my songs are encoded well
10:44:10*hayden nods
10:44:48keytarbut skipping tracks and through menus i expected to be quick
10:44:53keytarand they really are not..
10:45:30haydenHmmm. I wonder if you managed to accidentally disable directory caching.
10:45:42keytaris it possible that this SSD has problems with the rockbox o/s ?
10:46:53haydenIt is possible that it could be aligned better to be slightly more efficient at moving files around, but really the disk doesn't need to be very fast at all to decode modern lossy or lossless codecs in realtime.
10:47:06keytarwell, i kind of thought the menu was totally frozen at time, i may have changed an option or two.. but I did actually then switch to the latest build (unstable) only to see if there were a difference
10:47:23keytarand actually that just went straight into a diagnostic screen
10:47:27keytarthe debug screen ?
10:47:40haydenIt is highly recommended to use the current development build, which is not in any way unstable.
10:48:15haydenThe release is massively outdated and really no one should be using it.
10:48:32keytaryes, that was what i thought and I would prefer to use a stable build, I'm not interested in having a huge functionality but having an open filing system really appealed to me
10:49:17keytari used the rockbox utility... do you mean i ought to use another build
10:49:25keytaras there were only two options available
10:49:43haydenNo. You can install the current development build via RbUtil.
10:50:02haydenThat is perfectly sufficient, and exactly what you'd get doing it manually.
10:50:15hayden(all it is doing is extracting an archive to the root of the device)
10:51:17keytari actually believe there is a hardware problem
10:51:34keytarperhaps i need to look into finding exactly what i have here
10:51:41keytari only ran the autodetect
10:51:50keytarso that is all i know about the player
10:52:02keytari don't see why it should run so poorly
10:52:19keytarand as i say, there were no errors during installation
10:53:46haydenThe best way to ensure that the disk is set up as the iPod expects is to restore it with iTunes, or manually if you're on gnu/linux
10:54:18keytarthanks for your help
10:54:33keytari will do some research
10:54:37haydenthough I suppose it is possible that it could fuck up sector alignment.
10:54:46keytar... oh ..
10:55:11keytarthanks anyway, I will do some digging around
10:55:25keytartake care hayden
10:55:33haydenNo problem man.
10:55:36haydenTake care.
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11:28:14TorCJust looked through flyspray about my problem with text viewer bookmarks. Looks like it is FS #12798, which I can now confirm.
11:28:15fs-bluebot Clip Zip's Text Viewer Bookmark Failure (bugs, unconfirmed)
11:31:38TorCI went through the games that use combined buttons and it looks likely that some button combinations don't work, but others do.
11:32:17TorCFor instance, I couldn't get either solve to work in Flipit, but Home+Left works to shuffle the board
11:33:29TorCThe Submenu+Select seems to just be one of the broken combinations.
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11:34:22TorCSince it [key combination] is also broken in Star Game, but the Select+[Left|Right] works
11:36:20TorCIs there perhaps a way to change the TV bookmarking button combination to one of the combinations that works on Clip Zip, if it isn't possible to [immediately] fix the underlying issue?
11:37:32TorCPerhaps Select+[Left|Right], though it looks like for some people that might be a dangerous combination.
11:38:13TorCI didn't see anything that uses Select+Play to test that combination on the Zip, but if it turned out to work that would probably be the ideal alternate.
11:40:25haydenkeymaps are an absolute nightmare.
11:40:34haydenhave you seen our ridulous keymap files?
11:41:10haydenthey are foolishly complex and the possibility of conflicts on the minutest edit is immense.
11:41:16TorCNo, though I just realized that Minesweeper uses Select+Play and it works
11:41:40haydenyou can easily cause a cascade effect of conficts.
11:41:50TorCI suppose it is bad enough that it can't be done for TV alone?
11:41:58haydenthe key mapping is rather complex. :-/
11:42:38TorCAs I think about it I can't say I'm entirely surprised, given how much you wonderful folk have stuffed onto those keys
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11:44:00haydenI haven't the time to look presently but it may be a case of the original and subsequent maintainers never actually pushing past a keymap that just compiles without conflict and works for the major features or the ones they use individually.
11:44:14haydenthat would not surprise me in the slightest.
11:44:32TorCWhile I don't know what you've got to deal with, I would have hoped that the change might be able to be done only for TV
11:44:50haydenit is often difficult to put dedication into foolishly complex key mapping for plugins and features the maintainer doesn't even make use of.
11:45:43TorCIn this case, the offending combined failure also affects one of the games, but other similar combinations do work
11:46:02TorCIt also seems to be a clip zip specific bug because it works on clip+
11:46:26haydenand yes, it likely can, but without looking offhand I cna't say how much work it entails (as to whether or not there are existing conflicts or it just isn't done yet).
11:46:48TorCI'm pretty sure I did not find a combined key that worked in one place but not another.
11:47:08TorCSeemed like some combined keys work on the zip and others don't
11:47:21haydenThat's interesting.
11:47:39haydenWell, possibly.
11:47:51TorCThe manual doesn't record a conflict for the combined key I propose within TV.
11:48:04TorCBut I know manuals can be out of date
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11:49:21TorCCan you perhaps at least mark FS #12798 as confirmed to refresh it?
11:49:22fs-bluebot Clip Zip's Text Viewer Bookmark Failure (bugs, unconfirmed)
11:51:44haydenUnfortunately...I actually can't. I didn't have a cached session and we kinda messed up and let our gerrit instance login certification stuffs (openID2) lapse.
11:52:10TorCAh, I do recall seeing mention of that.
11:52:20hayden(google deprecated it in favor of OpenID Connect)
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11:52:47haydenPerhaps if I had a cached browser session from when I was logged in it would work, but I don't.
11:52:51haydenMaybe someone does.
11:53:47TorCWell, I'll try to keep an eye on things and if it doesn't get done when the login issue is solved I'll issue a reminder.
11:54:43haydenThere is an unfortunate situation in the present time with this project in that those who generously donate the backend hardware for our systems are wanting to move in on their lives and work on other projects, and life, full time.
11:55:22haydenWe should probably consider a github presence, but their pull/request system is bloody awful.
11:57:09haydenIt is no secret that momentum for the project has been gradually winding down for a period of some years now.
11:57:12TorCIn the scheme of things the bookmark issue isn't that big a deal. I spent some time looking and I haven't found anything that can duplicate what I can do on rockbox with Folder_Advance_List
11:57:27haydenSmartphones killed the DAP scene.
11:58:17TorCBlasted phones. I don't even own one, and don't want to
11:59:02TorCThe Clips are nice because they are /tiny/
11:59:49haydenMr. Someone (our in-joke for "pretty much anyone else but me") needs to aggressively go after the "Rockbox as a standalone playback library" approach so that Rockbox can have a future with relevance.
12:00:44haydenOtherwise, sadly, as much as I hate it - I and many others will at some point come to a point where it is no longer possible to acquire or maintain a supported device.
12:01:24TorCI suppose so. The state of the Clip Sport/Jam is sad.
12:01:29haydenI don't have the coding chops, time, or dedication to pull the "rockbox as a lib" approach off.
12:01:45hayden....but if someone did I would be more than happy to wrap a UI around it.
12:02:08TorCAnd I fear I have less than you. A little python and some bash is as far as I've gotten.
12:06:04TorCMy first intuition (which I know I don't have the qualifications to trust) wants to say it oughtn't be that hard for someone who knows what they are doing to replace the low level hardware routines with calls to OS functions - at least on GNU/Linux. I'd readily run Rockbox on a computer in preference to any other player I've come across.
12:06:36gevaertsThat bit is easy and done
12:06:43gevaertsWell, easy-ish
12:06:53gevaertsThe hard part is uncoupling it all from the UI
12:08:55TorCI'm perhaps not the best one to ask, but I'd take it in a window with a few keys bound to rockbox buttons if I had to.
12:09:10gevaertsYou can have that today
12:10:00TorCThe only thing is, I mostly listen to music in an environment I'd rather not subject my computer to.
12:10:40TorCDust in keyboards and such isn't to the taste of any laptop I've ever run across.
12:10:53TorC*Sawdust, that is
12:13:16haydenWe do have a functional SDL application that is perfectly usable and have had for an eternity.
12:13:25haydenIt is trivial to compile.
12:13:45haydenthough, granted, most users won't know of this.
12:13:53hayden...but it surely exists.
12:14:23haydenSo you essentially have a desktop media player with our touchscreen theme engine.
12:14:48hayden(and keyboard bindings ala SDL)
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12:15:46TorCWell, if I ever can't get a suitable player I might just cobble together something with an RPi to use that.
12:16:52TorCNothing else I'm aware of has the capacity by any means to run true random play but have sets of songs play in order the times the set comes up in the random play.
12:17:19haydenyep, you can surely use the sdl app on raspi.
12:17:47TorCIt makes the kind of familiar music I need to not distract myself too much a /lot/ more interesting without being more distracting
12:17:58haydenthere's also the pure cli 'warble' codec test suite that functions as a basic commandline player
12:18:13haydenwith seek, volume, ...basic playback and control features.
12:18:53TorCMaybe, but I'll keep my Random Folder Advance to random play a mix of songs and in order albums.
12:19:49haydenwell, anyway, yeah - think of the sdl desktop app as a touchscreen Rockbox target (if you've ever used one) with a display size you can decide arbitrarily.
12:20:07haydenyou can generate a binary of any resolution, and it has zooming features.
12:20:20haydenerrr, scaling, I should say.
12:20:40TorCI use ls|while read f; do mkdir "`basename $f $ext`"; mv "$f" "`basename "$f" $ext`"; echo $dir >> folder_advance_list.txt; done quite a bit to add music
12:21:23TorCHaven't used a touch target, and am not a fan of touchscreens in the first place.
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12:22:04TorCGood to know on the SDL app. I'll keep it in mind, though hopefully the clips I've got will keep me for a while
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16:09:43IvoahI can get the normal iPod OS to boot fine, but rockbox says it can't find rockbox.ipod
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16:24:26Ivoahis the dev version of rockbox stable enough to be used regularly?
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16:33:26pamauryIvoah: I know next to nothing about iPods but I think I was told the dev version is quite stable, at least on most ipods
16:34:02pamauryhowever if it says missing rockbox.ipod it probably means you didn't install rockbox but only the bootloader
16:35:20Ivoahpamaury: I had it working before, but I fixed it anyways by reinstalling rockbox
16:35:31pamauryah ok
16:35:32Ivoahhow do I launch pacbox?
16:35:39Ivoahit's not in the games list
16:36:15pamauryno idea, did you check if it's not in the other list by mistakes ? Or maybe it is not compiled for your target for some reason
16:36:35Ivoahthe wiki page says it supports the iPod 4g
16:36:49Ivoahand it's not in the other lists
16:37:28pamauryI don't know then, you can check whether the binary is in the .rockbox/plugins directory but since I never used it I can't say more
16:38:21Ivoahalso, is the only way to access the FS from a computer to boot into disk mode?
16:38:34Ivoahor can rockbox act like a flash drive too
16:42:20Ivoahthere is a file called pdbox.rock in .rockbox/rocks/viewers
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16:44:11pamauryIvoah: rockbox can act like a flash drive (unless your target doesn't have a stable usb driver)
16:44:53Ivoahpamaury: How would I enable that? When I plug it in it becomes a remote
16:45:41pamauryhuh, it's the default behavior, so maybe it is not enabled on the ipods
16:46:06pamauryhave you read the manual ? maybe it has an answer ?
16:46:43IvoahI'll poke around some more before resorting to reading the manual
16:46:58Ivoahalso, for pacbox, I installed the rom files where it says to
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16:55:32gevaertsWhen you plug in it becomes a device with two functions, mass storage *and* HID
16:56:17IvoahYeah, just found that out
16:56:20Ivoahthanks anyways
16:56:45Ivoahgevaerts: Can you help me with pacbox?
16:57:05gevaertsNo. I've never used that
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17:51:31pixelmaI *believe* pacbox only works on greyscale targets, maybe the drawing routines were never adapted to colour screens.
17:53:01pixelmahmm, no
17:56:02pixelmathe other way round - it works on colour screens if they are "big enough" and on the H100s and the M5 but no other greyscale target
17:58:23pixelmaso the question is which Ipod 4G you have, Ivoah (if I understood you correctly about your player). There is an Ipod 4th generation greyscale and the Ipod Color
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22:07:31Ivoahpixelma: I have an iPod 4g greyscale
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22:46:27TorCTook a look through the code for Text Viewer to see about getting bookmarking working on the Zip.
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22:47:33TorCSince the bug seems to be deeper in the code than TV (specifically, some combined keys are broken on the Zip), the quick and dirty solution is to change the key combination to one that does work.
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22:48:24TorCSelect+Up would be one possibility that has worked for me in a game.
22:48:52TorCThis also doesn't have dangerous side effects with either key in TV
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22:50:09TorCLines 208-219 in rockbox.git/apps/plugins/text_viewer/tv_button.h define TV's private keymap for all clips.
22:50:47TorCChanging that would also affect Clip/Clip+, which might/might not be a good idea.
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22:51:58TorCThe other possibility (since I doubt TV changes much) might be to offer a compiled binary of TV with the change made that people can download and replace manually if the lack of bookmarks bothers them.
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22:53:08saratoga_anyone know about this USB question:,48549.msg234894.html#msg234894
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22:53:19TorCThoughts on such a TV binary?
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22:55:01TorCI'd have to put in a good bit of work to compile any part of RB, but IIUC the actual change and compiling would be pretty simple.
22:55:27saratoga_a lot of button combinations can't be used because of the keyscan read out on the zip's board
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22:55:55TorCAnd the Select+Down that TV uses for bookmarking is one such.
22:56:46TorCSelect+Up has worked in a game, so I was asking about changing/making a manually updatable binary for the Zip based on that
22:56:46saratoga_you can check the wiki, i don't recall
22:57:07saratoga_if its unused and you update the manual i don't see a problem
22:58:51TorCUnused in TV, which seems to have a private keymap, so it shouldn't be much an issue.
22:59:45TorCCan download the files, make diffs, and send those to a dev, or do I need to (attempt) registering on gerrit?
23:01:27saratoga_you could post a patch and ask someone to commit it
23:02:38TorCI'll look into it.
23:03:51TorCThere is this pastebin that is a fix for where text viewer stores setting/bookmarks.
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23:10:36TorCIs the format of the aforementioned pastebin patch suitable for inclusion by a dev, or would I need to do something different?
23:11:29saratoga_as long as it applies to the current source
23:13:02TorCWhich it does.
23:13:47TorCOr perhaps a couple commits back by now, but I doubt it matters.
23:14:06saratoga_does that apply?
23:14:56saratoga_the file it patches doesn't even exist in rockbox
23:16:35saratoga_i think you mean manual / plugins / text_viewer.tex
23:17:17TorCOh, right. The download changed slashes to underscores on me, and I missed that.
23:17:33TorCSorry about that.
23:18:18saratoga_also the tex file name
23:18:37saratoga_its a good idea to try applying to the clean source code
23:21:07TorCRight. It was small enough that I'd only grabbed the one file. Guess I'll see about downloaded the whole thing before I pass over the other patch.
23:23:44 Join Electricguy_ [0] (
23:24:21saratoga_let me see if i can commit the idea of that patch from here
23:24:31saratoga_ah no i can't
23:28:07 Quit Electricguy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
23:28:47TorCThat same problem again.
23:30:13TorCI'm cloning the repo now, so I'll see about a better patch for this at the same time.
23:31:09 Quit pystar89 (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
23:33:30 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving)
23:39:16 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 39.0/20150601171003])
23:54:09 Quit saratoga_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
23:54:44 Nick suYin is now known as suYin`OFF (

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