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| 01:13:13 | lvxz | Hi. Can anyone do a 15 seconds hack and make Rockbox support ".database.ignore" and ".database.unignore" in addition to period-lacking versions? |
| 01:13:49 | lvxz | Currently, "database.ignore" sits in the middle of my files and frankly it's ugly. |
| 01:13:58 | lvxz | I know, it's silly, but I see no downsides. :) |
| 01:16:00 | [Saint] | Just set the file properties to hidden |
| 01:16:11 | [Saint] | Though, frankly...c'mon man. ;) |
| 01:16:39 | lvxz | I'm on Linux. |
| 01:17:02 | [Saint] | If you set the file properties to hiden via your host OS, and then select the "supported" view in the file browser in Rockbox, you won't see it. |
| 01:17:32 | lvxz | And I wouldn't ask if it weren't, I imagine, just a matter of adding a ' || ".database.ignore"' to the code. ;) |
| 01:18:06 | [Saint] | I'm not entirely sure what you running Linux has to do with the price of fish. |
| 01:18:23 | [Saint] | Do you think that in some way prevents you from setting the hidden file attribute? |
| 01:18:27 | [Saint] | (it doesn't) |
| 01:18:56 | lvxz | Ah, good point. I didn't think. |
| 01:19:02 | [Saint] | You could also just set the show files option to music. |
| 01:19:10 | [Saint] | (where it'll just show audio and playlists) |
| 01:19:29 | lvxz | Still, my original point is fair too; it is pretty much a typical case for a .hidden file. |
| 01:19:31 | [Saint] | I didn't mean to sound overly aggressive there, I was just seriously confused. |
| 01:20:27 | lvxz | Don't worry, you don't. |
| 01:24:04 | [Saint] | Actually...shit, just set the file browser show files option to "supported" |
| 01:25:14 | | Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 01:25:53 | lvxz | Yesss I know I could, but I display all files on principle everywhere. |
| 01:26:06 | [Saint] | ...why? |
| 01:26:24 | lvxz | database.(un)ignore is a meta-file, and the . prefix is made specially for them. |
| 01:26:31 | [Saint] | To show a bunch of files you can't interact with in any user friendly fashion? |
| 01:26:58 | [Saint] | I...what!?! |
| 01:27:16 | [Saint] | Was that just stringing a bunch of words together? |
| 01:27:21 | lvxz | ...Yes? I edit .dotfiles pretty regularly. I want and need to see every file in a directory. |
| 01:27:46 | [Saint] | Which dotfiles would those be? |
| 01:27:57 | [Saint] | The ones in question have zero content. |
| 01:28:02 | [Saint] | Have fun editing those... |
| 01:28:27 | lvxz | Wait. We're digging into a digression. The point is not really whether I should display all files as I browse my directories or not. |
| 01:28:59 | [Saint] | Well, it is when you're wanting to add a feature than can be replicated with native functionality. |
| 01:29:05 | lvxz | The point is that database.(un)ignore is, exactly as you say, a file that the user is not generally supposed to edit, or even think about, and as such, should be generally hidden. |
| 01:29:25 | [Saint] | So set the file browser to "supportted" and you'll never see it. |
| 01:29:27 | [Saint] | Sone. |
| 01:29:36 | [Saint] | *done |
| 01:30:22 | [Saint] | We wouldn't be particularly willing to do this as it would require a setting to bypass this behavior. |
| 01:30:41 | [Saint] | ANd we really try to refrain from adding settings for the hell of it. |
| 01:30:46 | lvxz | This is silly logic. Just because a room is rarely visited is no reason to keep it messy. |
| 01:30:58 | lvxz | And no, it hardly would. |
| 01:31:29 | [Saint] | And what if the user wants to remove the files manually on the device but can't because they're automatically hidden. |
| 01:31:41 | [Saint] | I understand. It is natural to fail to see use cases outside your own. |
| 01:31:44 | lvxz | http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=blobdiff;f=apps/tagcache.c;h=91220a3517160d84c3b7c11160c24974de24d099;hp=4ddf1d2d2d13c7b0b460a83d27015e5c66f7ea42;hb=c31ffae440b6e5b3ef28d584cd2a8f8b0c471c4e;hpb=2ed41f90201f1dd69e131837d051c6d41ac53721 (sorry, not sure if I can remove the cache argument) |
| 01:31:44 | [Saint] | But we need to. |
| 01:32:29 | [Saint] | We need all files to be visible to the user under the file browser. |
| 01:32:53 | [Saint] | In order to do as you want, we would need to add a file browser view configuration or a setting to govern this behavior. |
| 01:33:05 | [Saint] | Which is overkill. |
| 01:33:24 | lvxz | Just support both filenames−−both prefixed and unprefixed. |
| 01:34:03 | lvxz | If the user's file browser doesn't display hidden files for some reason, he will use the unprefixed filename on his device. |
| 01:34:10 | [Saint] | We still need it to be visible if desired. |
| 01:34:20 | [Saint] | (on device) |
| 01:34:30 | lvxz | If so, then why is .rockbox itself a hidden directory? :/ |
| 01:34:47 | lvxz | If you have a no-hidden-files/directories policy? |
| 01:34:49 | [Saint] | On device, it isn't. |
| 01:35:13 | | Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) |
| 01:35:14 | [Saint] | Change the file browser view and it'll pop up as any other directory or file. |
| 01:35:52 | [Saint] | Having set your file browser to show all I would have thought you would have noticed this. |
| 01:36:09 | lvxz | Wait. |
| 01:36:33 | lvxz | You're telling me, 'we won't support the dot-prefixed version because the user needs to be able to see all files on his device in his file browser'. |
| 01:37:12 | lvxz | If this is a concern, if the user needs to be able to create and remove database.(un)ignore files at will (which he does), then he will still be able to−−by using the non-dot-prefixed verions. |
| 01:37:34 | lvxz | Supporting the dot-prefixed versions literally disrupts nothing. |
| 01:38:10 | [Saint] | Except for the fact that you would have files hidden from the user that behave like no other files in Rockbox. |
| 01:38:11 | lvxz | I really didn't expect this to be debatable. |
| 01:38:17 | [Saint] | I call that a disruption. |
| 01:38:24 | lvxz | 'Behave'? What does that even mean? |
| 01:38:48 | [Saint] | Meaning that would be the only file(s) in the entire system to behave this way. |
| 01:39:11 | [Saint] | For no obvious reason barring questionable aesthetics. |
| 01:39:41 | lvxz | Well TBH, maybe this behaviour should be changed, too. For instance I noticed that 'games' directory is created in the root directory which really should be '.games' as well, unless the user is expected to manually edit his save files. ;) |
| 01:40:07 | [Saint] | Why? |
| 01:40:23 | [Saint] | The user can navigate to *.rock files and launch them as a viewer. |
| 01:40:28 | [Saint] | It makes no sense to hide them away. |
| 01:40:34 | lvxz | Are there any user-friendly (your own phrasing) files in the 'games' directory? :/ |
| 01:40:42 | [Saint] | Yes. |
| 01:40:49 | lvxz | If no, then by your own logic it should be called−−oh. Apologies, then. |
| 01:41:21 | lvxz | Still, consider one more argument. |
| 01:41:47 | lvxz | database.(un)ignore files are probably the only files that mix with the user's regular files. |
| 01:41:56 | [Saint] | Just to be clear, I can see your point - but I have to try to look at this on a much wider scale, taking in user confusion into account (a user could easily forget about the hidden dotfiles and wonder why their system isn;t behaving as they expect it to) |
| 01:42:35 | lvxz | If a user has a directory with lots of files beginning with 'd', he can't very quickly figure whether this dir is ignored or not, which he would if it were dot-prefixed. |
| 01:42:35 | [Saint] | If the use case was not already possible, this would probably be a different story. |
| 01:42:56 | [Saint] | But users can quite easily hide away any files that Rockbox can't directly interact with in a sensible way. |
| 01:42:57 | lvxz | This is an argument for breaking the general naming consistency. |
| 01:43:36 | [Saint] | Basically what I am saying is that I can see this creating more harm than good, and the functionality is already available with no modification. |
| 01:43:38 | lvxz | Users edit files on their devices outside of Rockbox (i.e., on their desktop file browsers) as often as inside it. |
| 01:44:14 | lvxz | "a user could easily forget about the hidden dotfiles and wonder why their system isn;t behaving as they expect it to"−−this is not an argument because we're not forcing users to use the dotted form. |
| 01:44:38 | lvxz | We can add the information about the dotform being supported as a footnote. |
| 01:44:54 | [Saint] | No, we're not, but they could quite easily forget it exists after the fact, even if it was their choice to use it. |
| 01:45:02 | lvxz | Sheesh. |
| 01:46:11 | [Saint] | Another thing I would be wary of is this snowballing. |
| 01:46:18 | lvxz | Hm? |
| 01:46:30 | [Saint] | Users wanting to add dotfile support for configs, playlists, etc. |
| 01:46:47 | [Saint] | As surely those cases are equally valid. |
| 01:47:05 | lvxz | But they aren't. See my point about the 'mid-file-list confusion'. |
| 01:47:25 | lvxz | (01:41:49) lvxz: database.(un)ignore files are probably the only files that mix with the user's regular files. |
| 01:47:45 | [Saint] | Nope. |
| 01:48:02 | lvxz | What would be other cases? |
| 01:48:25 | [Saint] | People place configs in folders (for an audiobook or podcast configuration, for instance.), playlists. |
| 01:48:35 | | Quit babylonlurker (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) |
| 01:48:46 | lvxz | Hmm. All right. |
| 01:49:09 | [Saint] | Just to be crystal clear I do see your point and I do see the potential merits in it. |
| 01:49:17 | [Saint] | But I can also see the potential flaws. |
| 01:49:20 | lvxz | I didn't expect this to evolve into a discussion, but thank you. |
| 01:49:46 | lvxz | Maybe I'll submit the patch and try to find more arguments until then. ;) |
| 01:49:57 | [Saint] | I'm not trying to drag your idea into the ground, I think it is perfectly valid, but I think it wise to be wary of things that add the potential for needless confusion. |
| 01:50:17 | lvxz | No problem. :) Thank you for engaging my suggestion. |
| 01:53:03 | [Saint] | From my point of view it boils down to (again, from my POV) these dotfiles still needing to be viewed on device if the file browser is set to display "all" files. |
| 01:53:08 | [Saint] | (all files is all files) |
| 01:53:32 | [Saint] | With that in mind, the functionality already exists by virtue of using the "supported" file browser view. |
| 01:54:31 | [Saint] | think if the "all" setting in the file browser as the functional equivalent of "show hidden files and folders" on $arbitrary_operating_system |
| 01:54:35 | [Saint] | *think of |
| 01:55:16 | [Saint] | One specific file type that breaks that expectation, however trivial, warrants discussion. |
| 01:56:37 | lvxz | Just to make sure I understand. You're saying that Rockbox's manner of choice of hiding unwanted files for aesthetics' sake is not dotted-undotted, but recognized-unrecognized extension? |
| 01:57:54 | [Saint] | Basically, yes. |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:41 | [Saint] | I know it may seem as though I'm being deliberately argumentative solely to rain on your parade for seemingly no reason, but like it or not part of my "job" here is to play Devil's Advocate and expand on things like this with thought experiments that consider all use cases and user simplicity. |
| 02:01:06 | lvxz | I trust completely that you have good intentions. :) |
| 02:01:27 | [Saint] | Thank you, I appreciate that. |
| 02:02:53 | [Saint] | To be clear I also appreciate your interest in our fine project and your want of expanding on its functionality. |
| 02:03:25 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 2ec6fbc, 255 builds, 27 clients. |
| 02:08:38 | lvxz | The project is awesome. It's clearly a labour of love. Consider small details such as (I use a Clip+) feature to put a setting in more than one slot of the Quick Screen, the feature to send settings into it to begin with, the real-time update, as you change the settings, of the interface (scrollbar width) or behaviour (changing the LCD highlighting time−−when I first scrolled into the 'off' option and the screen turned black, I thought the device |
| 02:09:18 | lvxz | Or minutiae such as two modes of displaying overlong menu entries. |
| 02:09:30 | TorC | I'm having issues with text viewer bookmarking not working on Clip Zip (dev and stable) but working on Clip+ (again, both) |
| 02:09:35 | | Quit CustosLimen (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 02:09:43 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 378 seconds. |
| 02:09:47 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Revision 2ec6fbc result: 0 errors 2 warnings |
| 02:09:53 | | Join CustosLimen [0] (~CustosLim@unaffiliated/cust0slim3n) |
| 02:12:46 | lvxz | ...Or that, I believe, scrolling behaves the same way in contexts as diverse as scrolling a document, scrolling a menu, and rewinding a song. |
| 02:12:56 | | Quit Markmaster_ (Quit: Markmaster_) |
| 02:13:07 | lvxz | It really gives the sense of well-designed software. |
| 02:13:31 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 3e5e9cf, 255 builds, 27 clients. |
| 02:14:17 | | Join Markmaster [0] (~Markmaste@vpn-dc-184-173-166-154.hosts.getcloakvpn.com) |
| 02:14:50 | lvxz | Not to mention that not even VLC supports .lrc files. :P |
| 02:16:13 | [Saint] | ..yeah it does. |
| 02:16:40 | lvxz | Right, it does! But not when album art is displayed. |
| 02:16:53 | [Saint] | Ah, right, granted. |
| 02:17:20 | TorC | The lack of bookmarking on the Zip is particularly annoying because with no bookmarks there is no way (that I've found) even to get to the first page of a long file without tediously scrolling through the entire file. Reopening the file simply results in returning to the last page viewed (mostly a Good Thing). |
| 02:18:02 | lvxz | Oh, by the way of the text_viewer. Where are the per-file viewer settings stored? I tried to find this, but couldn't. |
| 02:18:48 | TorC | I just wrote a patch for the manual on the viewer settings file |
| 02:19:29 | TorC | It is .rockbox/rocks/viewers/tv_file.dat |
| 02:19:36 | lvxz | Thank you. :) |
| 02:20:11 | TorC | It may take a bit for the patch to get into the manual, since I'm not ready to deal with gerrit to push it through |
| 02:20:14 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 404 seconds. |
| 02:20:17 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Revision 3e5e9cf result: All green |
| 02:20:41 | TorC | If you have it and want to help, it can be found at http://pastebin.ca/3015420 |
| 02:23:28 | [Saint] | lvxz: */rocks/viewers/tv_file.dat |
| 02:24:33 | lvxz | Thanks. I opened a truckload of documents before I thought to change the default font, and I would hate to re-change it manually. |
| 02:25:10 | lvxz | I'll just delete this file. |
| 02:27:15 | [Saint] | Oh, by the way, since you mentioned the quickmenu... |
| 02:27:35 | [Saint] | Are you aware that you can replace the quickscreen with a list of shortcuts instead? |
| 02:28:18 | lvxz | You mean, pressing the button will bring the list of shortcuts? |
| 02:28:19 | [Saint] | (allowing you an infinite (well, not really...but, yeah) number of possible quickscreen setting outcomes, as opposed to just 4. |
| 02:28:23 | [Saint] | ) |
| 02:28:25 | [Saint] | yes. |
| 02:28:59 | lvxz | Can you give me a quote from the manual, so that I can Google it to look this feature up? |
| 02:29:06 | [Saint] | Even for an experienced user, I very highly recommend reading our fine manual. |
| 02:29:09 | [Saint] | Yep. Sec. |
| 02:29:12 | lvxz | I did. >_< |
| 02:29:17 | lvxz | Well, to a large part. |
| 02:29:37 | | Quit Markmaster (Quit: Markmaster) |
| 02:30:06 | [Saint] | Section 8.5.3 "use shortcuts menu instead of quick screen" |
| 02:30:34 | [Saint] | http://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-sansaclipplus.pdf |
| 02:31:02 | [Saint] | (it isn't device specific so it doesn't really mater the target device the manual is built for for this instance) |
| 02:31:04 | lvxz | I have the HTML version on my Sansa. :) |
| 02:31:16 | [Saint] | ...you poor bastard. |
| 02:31:21 | lvxz | Hm? |
| 02:31:21 | [Saint] | ;) |
| 02:31:42 | lvxz | What's bad about that? I don't read it on the text_viewer... I mean, I *did* that, but only once. ;) |
| 02:31:59 | [Saint] | It is a widely held theory that only masochists use the text viewer. :) |
| 02:32:19 | lvxz | I basically keep my player plugged in all the time and listen to music from it. |
| 02:32:20 | [Saint] | Especially on the Sansas. |
| 02:32:36 | [Saint] | (tiny, terrible, screens) |
| 02:32:39 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 02:32:45 | lvxz | So I keep the docs on it, too, because why not−−it's as accessible as on my PC's drives. |
| 02:33:02 | [Saint] | Aha, right, yeah - that makes some sense. |
| 02:33:13 | [Saint] | I thought you were actually using the text viewer...uuuuugh. |
| 02:33:32 | lvxz | As for masochism, you have a point. But I just like small things to fiddle with. |
| 02:33:50 | [Saint] | Rockbox has a slew of things that are fun as a novelty but basically useless in the greater scheme of things. |
| 02:33:59 | [Saint] | Case in point, our virtual keyboard. |
| 02:34:08 | [Saint] | Also...DooM |
| 02:34:26 | lvxz | Right. It probably won't get any more proof-of-concept than that. |
| 02:35:02 | lvxz | As for the keyboard, I've read threads saying that full voice recognition of players is infeasible because of memory limits. |
| 02:35:07 | lvxz | *on players |
| 02:35:27 | lvxz | But now I thought, maybe simple letter-by-letter recognition of spelling would work? |
| 02:35:31 | [Saint] | I have a feeling that if Rockbox were to be invented in this day and age it would not have the same kind of "lets just throw shit at the wall until something sticks" feel about it. |
| 02:35:32 | [Franklin] | and, from [Saint]'s perspective, all the games :P |
| 02:35:38 | TorC | Well, nearly useless is not the same as useless. I've been glad of the virtual keyboard to fix my folder_advance_list.txt a few times. |
| 02:35:41 | [Saint] | Damn skippy. |
| 02:36:25 | [Franklin] | and the demos |
| 02:36:36 | [Saint] | The games are fun for occasionally showing someone "Hey, look at this ridiculous hilarious shit my DAP can do!" |
| 02:36:49 | lvxz | Ha. Speaking of demos. |
| 02:36:51 | [Saint] | But, besides that, the novelty wears out _reaaaaally_ quickly. |
| 02:37:08 | [Franklin] | eh |
| 02:37:09 | [Saint] | ANd, yes, demos. |
| 02:37:13 | [Franklin] | I suppose |
| 02:37:17 | [Saint] | Hell...even half the viewers. |
| 02:37:25 | lvxz | I have always been sceptical about them, but the 'mosaique' is positively awesome. |
| 02:37:41 | lvxz | I looked at it at like three minutes and was actually entertained. |
| 02:37:56 | lvxz | You can tell its author. :) |
| 02:37:56 | [Franklin] | 2048 and doom are the only fun games :P |
| 02:38:04 | [Franklin] | and xworld |
| 02:39:44 | [Saint] | If you REALLY hate yourself, we have a FROTZ viewer so you can play Z-Machine interactive text based adventure games with an even more horrible keyboard than the virtual keyboard. |
| 02:40:29 | [Franklin] | I've recently been thinking about Elite |
| 02:40:54 | [Franklin] | all you really need to play it is pitch and roll |
| 02:41:09 | [Saint] | lvxz: if you like mosaique you might also like 'bounce'. |
| 02:41:23 | [Saint] | You can get some fairly interesting patterns going with it. |
| 02:42:12 | [Franklin] | the original version used like 20K of memory |
| 02:43:39 | lvxz | [Saint] huh, I'd never guess it is customizable without reading the manual. |
| 02:44:42 | [Saint] | My favorite "viewer" is the credits |
| 02:44:47 | lvxz | But when you think about it, every single arbitrary numerical value that's bigger than, say, 4, should be customizable in a piece of software. ;) |
| 02:44:55 | [Saint] | Especially if you skip to entry number 545 |
| 02:44:56 | [Franklin] | meh |
| 02:45:06 | | Quit krabador (Quit: Take The Time) |
| 02:45:19 | [Franklin] | I need 0xFF as a bitmask |
| 02:46:27 | [Saint] | But not entry number 568. |
| 02:46:37 | lvxz | The credits are kind of bugged in the sense that the long names don't scroll to be visible, and the very last ones are not scrollable-to at all. |
| 02:46:47 | [Saint] | That Franklin Wei guy is a real dick...whoever he is. |
| 02:46:49 | [Saint] | :p |
| 02:47:09 | [Franklin] | meh |
| 02:47:23 | [Saint] | Hahahaha, just yankin' your chain. |
| 02:47:34 | [Franklin] | time to submit a patch entitled "Remove that saint dude" |
| 02:48:00 | [Saint] | You'll have to figure out what my real name is first. |
| 02:48:08 | [Saint] | ...though its not impossible. |
| 02:48:23 | [Franklin] | let's see... number 545 |
| 02:48:46 | [Saint] | Awww...dammit. |
| 02:48:54 | [Franklin] | :P |
| 02:49:21 | [Franklin] | Aaron! |
| 02:50:05 | [Saint] | Hmmmm...OK...that's weird. I didn't expect the list numbers to change. |
| 02:50:12 | [Saint] | I thought we appended. |
| 02:50:13 | [Franklin] | no... the credits file is offset by 10 |
| 02:50:31 | [Saint] | Ah, I'm safe! :P |
| 02:50:33 | [Franklin] | so it's 555 |
| 02:50:42 | [Franklin] | ... Mr. Pearce! |
| 02:51:05 | [Saint] | Ummmm....no? :) |
| 02:51:12 | [Saint] | Hey, look over there! |
| 02:51:14 | [Saint] | <runs> |
| 02:51:42 | [Franklin] | but really |
| 02:51:50 | [Franklin] | Elite ought to be possible |
| 02:52:08 | [Saint] | Entirely so, yes. |
| 02:52:11 | [Franklin] | most of the framework code is already available |
| 02:52:12 | [Saint] | At least in theory. |
| 02:52:18 | lvxz | What's 'elite'? |
| 02:52:32 | [Franklin] | it's the greatest game in history |
| 02:52:47 | [Saint] | lvxz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1f9bhYRDPk |
| 02:52:48 | lvxz | Oh, got it. :) |
| 02:53:00 | lvxz | Looking it up now. |
| 02:53:26 | [Saint] | A free roaming space exploration game. |
| 02:53:33 | [Franklin] | in 1984... in 20K of RAM |
| 02:53:35 | lvxz | I'm old, but not as old as to remember it first-hand. |
| 02:53:37 | [Franklin] | something like that |
| 02:53:40 | [Saint] | WHich has been re-imagined as Elite: Dangerous |
| 02:53:44 | lvxz | Right, definitely not that old. ;) |
| 02:53:45 | [Saint] | ...which is AWESOME. |
| 02:54:28 | [Saint] | lvxz: Holy Hell, what on Earth do you consider to be old then? |
| 02:54:48 | [Saint] | I guess I must be bloody ancient in your eyes. :) |
| 02:55:41 | lvxz | No, I meant that I'm not that old to remember that game. |
| 02:55:59 | lvxz | Mine was probably the first generation whose first computer was a PC. |
| 02:58:08 | [Saint] | YEs, but you said "I'm old, but..." |
| 02:58:45 | [Saint] | "I'm old, but I don't remember a game launched in 1984 which was played well into the 90s" makes me feel like Methuselah. |
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| 03:00:02 | [Saint] | I think the Acornsoft version (it was Acornsoft that picked it up, yeah?) was implemented in just under 32k |
| 03:00:25 | [Franklin] | wow |
| 03:01:20 | | Quit prof_wolfff (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 03:01:51 | [Saint] | I may be misremembering. |
| 03:02:17 | [Saint] | I'm fairly sure, but not positive, that it was Acornsoft that picked it up after the second implementation when no one else touched it. |
| 03:02:23 | [Saint] | ANd they made a killing on it, too. |
| 03:02:31 | [Saint] | It was a massively successful game. |
| 03:03:27 | [Franklin] | beautifully implemented, too |
| 03:03:43 | [Saint] | Indeed so. |
| 03:09:41 | [Franklin] | 32K... that's the size of an icon for a game :P |
| 03:09:52 | [Franklin] | nowadays |
| 03:16:01 | | Quit [Franklin] (Quit: Lost terminal) |
| 03:20:04 | | Part lvxz |
| 03:44:22 | TorC | Well, looks pretty clear that the lack of bookmarking on Clip Zip is a Zip specific bug. |
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| 03:44:37 | TorC | ^Text viewer bookmarking, that is. |
| 03:46:14 | TorC | I just got a new zip, put the latest dev build on in, and still cannot set bookmarks in text viewer. Works correctly on two Clip+, one with both dev/stable, the other with stable. |
| 03:48:25 | TorC | *by latest build, I mean it: 3e5e9cf-150602 |
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| 03:50:48 | keytar | would having a swapped h/d for an SSD in an iPod video make a difference. first time installation and very sluggish, intermittent controls |
| 03:51:06 | keytar | cannot seem to find any info suggesting this.. but .. ? |
| 03:52:00 | keytar | playlist problems / unable to change fonts / cannot update db etc... |
| 03:54:08 | | Quit hannes3 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 03:55:20 | keytar | error accessing playlist control file.... a constant |
| 04:00 |
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| 10:07:12 | keytar | has anyone here ran rockbox for 5th gen ipod video ? |
| 10:13:32 | [Saint] | Yes. |
| 10:14:11 | [Saint] | (awesome nick, btw) |
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| 10:15:23 | [Saint] | keytar: Do you have a specific question regarding Rockbox on the 5/5.5G iPods? |
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| 10:33:24 | | Nick [Saint] is now known as hayden (~saint@rockbox/staff/saint) |
| 10:36:46 | keytar | well, I ran rockbox for a day and found it to be very unresponsive |
| 10:37:13 | keytar | i bought a second hand model and the hdd was replaced for an SSD of 30gig |
| 10:38:02 | keytar | i'm assuming that is the problem, but I'm unsure |
| 10:38:18 | keytar | i used the automatic installation |
| 10:38:27 | keytar | everything went well during installation |
| 10:38:41 | keytar | i don't see why it behaves so awfully |
| 10:39:23 | hayden | can you elaborate on 'awfully' perhaps? |
| 10:39:33 | keytar | ok |
| 10:39:53 | keytar | all aspects of the software.. ie. loading N eq SETTING |
| 10:39:58 | keytar | oops sorry caps |
| 10:40:09 | keytar | loading the EQ would take 1 minute |
| 10:40:22 | hayden | How many bands are you trying to use? |
| 10:40:27 | keytar | skipping to the next track quickly would freeze |
| 10:40:39 | keytar | the database could not be loaded |
| 10:40:45 | keytar | the font files would disappear |
| 10:40:54 | hayden | If you try to use a full parametric EQ like a 'dumb' GEQ, it is woefully inefficient. |
| 10:41:09 | keytar | it seems every function i tried had problems |
| 10:41:13 | hayden | The iPod 5/5.5G only has an 80MHz core. |
| 10:41:22 | hayden | It isn't a particularly powerful device. |
| 10:41:35 | keytar | ok, perhaps I'm expecting miracles |
| 10:41:57 | keytar | well, i was wondering if there was a stripped down version |
| 10:42:04 | hayden | using the parametric EQ incorrectly is a surefire way to make this device perform like shit. |
| 10:42:13 | keytar | as i do like the fact i can drag and drop |
| 10:42:21 | hayden | each band requires about 8MHz addition cpu overhead. |
| 10:42:25 | keytar | that is basically the only reason i wanted to try rockbox |
| 10:43:11 | hayden | Then you'll need to look into how to correctly configure a full parametric equalizer. |
| 10:43:20 | keytar | ok, i got you.. as a fresh install, even before i checked out the EQ, it seemed too slow |
| 10:43:23 | hayden | Because really you only need to be using 2 or three bands at most. |
| 10:43:52 | hayden | there are 10 bands, but it isn;t the intention the the user will use all of them. |
| 10:44:03 | keytar | yes, the EQ actually is something i won;t use too much anyway, my songs are encoded well |
| 10:44:10 | * | hayden nods |
| 10:44:48 | keytar | but skipping tracks and through menus i expected to be quick |
| 10:44:53 | keytar | and they really are not.. |
| 10:45:30 | hayden | Hmmm. I wonder if you managed to accidentally disable directory caching. |
| 10:45:42 | keytar | is it possible that this SSD has problems with the rockbox o/s ? |
| 10:46:53 | hayden | It is possible that it could be aligned better to be slightly more efficient at moving files around, but really the disk doesn't need to be very fast at all to decode modern lossy or lossless codecs in realtime. |
| 10:47:06 | keytar | well, i kind of thought the menu was totally frozen at time, i may have changed an option or two.. but I did actually then switch to the latest build (unstable) only to see if there were a difference |
| 10:47:23 | keytar | and actually that just went straight into a diagnostic screen |
| 10:47:27 | keytar | the debug screen ? |
| 10:47:40 | hayden | It is highly recommended to use the current development build, which is not in any way unstable. |
| 10:48:15 | hayden | The release is massively outdated and really no one should be using it. |
| 10:48:32 | keytar | yes, that was what i thought and I would prefer to use a stable build, I'm not interested in having a huge functionality but having an open filing system really appealed to me |
| 10:49:17 | keytar | i used the rockbox utility... do you mean i ought to use another build |
| 10:49:25 | keytar | as there were only two options available |
| 10:49:43 | hayden | No. You can install the current development build via RbUtil. |
| 10:50:02 | hayden | That is perfectly sufficient, and exactly what you'd get doing it manually. |
| 10:50:15 | hayden | (all it is doing is extracting an archive to the root of the device) |
| 10:51:17 | keytar | i actually believe there is a hardware problem |
| 10:51:34 | keytar | perhaps i need to look into finding exactly what i have here |
| 10:51:41 | keytar | i only ran the autodetect |
| 10:51:50 | keytar | so that is all i know about the player |
| 10:52:02 | keytar | i don't see why it should run so poorly |
| 10:52:19 | keytar | and as i say, there were no errors during installation |
| 10:53:46 | hayden | The best way to ensure that the disk is set up as the iPod expects is to restore it with iTunes, or manually if you're on gnu/linux |
| 10:54:08 | hayden | s/best/best~easiest/ |
| 10:54:13 | keytar | ok... |
| 10:54:18 | keytar | thanks for your help |
| 10:54:33 | keytar | i will do some research |
| 10:54:37 | hayden | though I suppose it is possible that it could fuck up sector alignment. |
| 10:54:46 | keytar | ... oh .. |
| 10:55:11 | keytar | thanks anyway, I will do some digging around |
| 10:55:25 | keytar | take care hayden |
| 10:55:33 | hayden | No problem man. |
| 10:55:36 | hayden | Take care. |
| 11:00 |
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| 11:27:46 | | Nick suYin`OFF is now known as suYin (suYin@server1.bouncer4you.de) |
| 11:28:14 | TorC | Just looked through flyspray about my problem with text viewer bookmarks. Looks like it is FS #12798, which I can now confirm. |
| 11:28:15 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12798 Clip Zip's Text Viewer Bookmark Failure (bugs, unconfirmed) |
| 11:31:38 | TorC | I went through the games that use combined buttons and it looks likely that some button combinations don't work, but others do. |
| 11:32:17 | TorC | For instance, I couldn't get either solve to work in Flipit, but Home+Left works to shuffle the board |
| 11:33:29 | TorC | The Submenu+Select seems to just be one of the broken combinations. |
| 11:34:06 | | Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) |
| 11:34:22 | TorC | Since it [key combination] is also broken in Star Game, but the Select+[Left|Right] works |
| 11:36:20 | TorC | Is there perhaps a way to change the TV bookmarking button combination to one of the combinations that works on Clip Zip, if it isn't possible to [immediately] fix the underlying issue? |
| 11:37:32 | TorC | Perhaps Select+[Left|Right], though it looks like for some people that might be a dangerous combination. |
| 11:38:13 | TorC | I didn't see anything that uses Select+Play to test that combination on the Zip, but if it turned out to work that would probably be the ideal alternate. |
| 11:40:25 | hayden | keymaps are an absolute nightmare. |
| 11:40:34 | hayden | have you seen our ridulous keymap files? |
| 11:40:43 | hayden | *ridiculous |
| 11:41:10 | hayden | they are foolishly complex and the possibility of conflicts on the minutest edit is immense. |
| 11:41:16 | TorC | No, though I just realized that Minesweeper uses Select+Play and it works |
| 11:41:40 | hayden | you can easily cause a cascade effect of conficts. |
| 11:41:50 | TorC | I suppose it is bad enough that it can't be done for TV alone? |
| 11:41:58 | hayden | the key mapping is rather complex. :-/ |
| 11:42:38 | TorC | As I think about it I can't say I'm entirely surprised, given how much you wonderful folk have stuffed onto those keys |
| 11:43:57 | | Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP) |
| 11:44:00 | hayden | I haven't the time to look presently but it may be a case of the original and subsequent maintainers never actually pushing past a keymap that just compiles without conflict and works for the major features or the ones they use individually. |
| 11:44:14 | hayden | that would not surprise me in the slightest. |
| 11:44:32 | TorC | While I don't know what you've got to deal with, I would have hoped that the change might be able to be done only for TV |
| 11:44:50 | hayden | it is often difficult to put dedication into foolishly complex key mapping for plugins and features the maintainer doesn't even make use of. |
| 11:45:43 | TorC | In this case, the offending combined failure also affects one of the games, but other similar combinations do work |
| 11:46:02 | TorC | It also seems to be a clip zip specific bug because it works on clip+ |
| 11:46:26 | hayden | and yes, it likely can, but without looking offhand I cna't say how much work it entails (as to whether or not there are existing conflicts or it just isn't done yet). |
| 11:46:48 | TorC | I'm pretty sure I did not find a combined key that worked in one place but not another. |
| 11:47:08 | TorC | Seemed like some combined keys work on the zip and others don't |
| 11:47:21 | hayden | That's interesting. |
| 11:47:39 | hayden | Well, possibly. |
| 11:47:51 | TorC | The manual doesn't record a conflict for the combined key I propose within TV. |
| 11:48:04 | TorC | But I know manuals can be out of date |
| 11:48:46 | | Join michaelni_ [0] (~michael@188-23-247-24.adsl.highway.telekom.at) |
| 11:49:21 | TorC | Can you perhaps at least mark FS #12798 as confirmed to refresh it? |
| 11:49:22 | fs-bluebot | http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12798 Clip Zip's Text Viewer Bookmark Failure (bugs, unconfirmed) |
| 11:51:44 | hayden | Unfortunately...I actually can't. I didn't have a cached session and we kinda messed up and let our gerrit instance login certification stuffs (openID2) lapse. |
| 11:52:10 | TorC | Ah, I do recall seeing mention of that. |
| 11:52:20 | hayden | (google deprecated it in favor of OpenID Connect) |
| 11:52:21 | | Quit michaelni (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
| 11:52:47 | hayden | Perhaps if I had a cached browser session from when I was logged in it would work, but I don't. |
| 11:52:51 | hayden | Maybe someone does. |
| 11:53:47 | TorC | Well, I'll try to keep an eye on things and if it doesn't get done when the login issue is solved I'll issue a reminder. |
| 11:54:43 | hayden | There is an unfortunate situation in the present time with this project in that those who generously donate the backend hardware for our systems are wanting to move in on their lives and work on other projects, and life, full time. |
| 11:55:22 | hayden | We should probably consider a github presence, but their pull/request system is bloody awful. |
| 11:55:49 | TorC | Ah. |
| 11:57:09 | hayden | It is no secret that momentum for the project has been gradually winding down for a period of some years now. |
| 11:57:12 | TorC | In the scheme of things the bookmark issue isn't that big a deal. I spent some time looking and I haven't found anything that can duplicate what I can do on rockbox with Folder_Advance_List |
| 11:57:27 | hayden | Smartphones killed the DAP scene. |
| 11:58:17 | TorC | Blasted phones. I don't even own one, and don't want to |
| 11:59:02 | TorC | The Clips are nice because they are /tiny/ |
| 11:59:49 | hayden | Mr. Someone (our in-joke for "pretty much anyone else but me") needs to aggressively go after the "Rockbox as a standalone playback library" approach so that Rockbox can have a future with relevance. |
| 12:00 |
| 12:00:44 | hayden | Otherwise, sadly, as much as I hate it - I and many others will at some point come to a point where it is no longer possible to acquire or maintain a supported device. |
| 12:01:24 | TorC | I suppose so. The state of the Clip Sport/Jam is sad. |
| 12:01:29 | hayden | I don't have the coding chops, time, or dedication to pull the "rockbox as a lib" approach off. |
| 12:01:45 | hayden | ....but if someone did I would be more than happy to wrap a UI around it. |
| 12:02:08 | TorC | And I fear I have less than you. A little python and some bash is as far as I've gotten. |
| 12:06:04 | TorC | My first intuition (which I know I don't have the qualifications to trust) wants to say it oughtn't be that hard for someone who knows what they are doing to replace the low level hardware routines with calls to OS functions - at least on GNU/Linux. I'd readily run Rockbox on a computer in preference to any other player I've come across. |
| 12:06:36 | gevaerts | That bit is easy and done |
| 12:06:43 | gevaerts | Well, easy-ish |
| 12:06:53 | gevaerts | The hard part is uncoupling it all from the UI |
| 12:07:29 | hayden | right |
| 12:08:55 | TorC | I'm perhaps not the best one to ask, but I'd take it in a window with a few keys bound to rockbox buttons if I had to. |
| 12:09:10 | gevaerts | You can have that today |
| 12:10:00 | TorC | The only thing is, I mostly listen to music in an environment I'd rather not subject my computer to. |
| 12:10:40 | TorC | Dust in keyboards and such isn't to the taste of any laptop I've ever run across. |
| 12:10:53 | TorC | *Sawdust, that is |
| 12:13:16 | hayden | We do have a functional SDL application that is perfectly usable and have had for an eternity. |
| 12:13:25 | hayden | It is trivial to compile. |
| 12:13:45 | hayden | though, granted, most users won't know of this. |
| 12:13:53 | hayden | ...but it surely exists. |
| 12:14:23 | hayden | So you essentially have a desktop media player with our touchscreen theme engine. |
| 12:14:48 | hayden | (and keyboard bindings ala SDL) |
| 12:15:43 | | Quit petur (Quit: Leaving) |
| 12:15:46 | TorC | Well, if I ever can't get a suitable player I might just cobble together something with an RPi to use that. |
| 12:16:52 | TorC | Nothing else I'm aware of has the capacity by any means to run true random play but have sets of songs play in order the times the set comes up in the random play. |
| 12:17:19 | hayden | yep, you can surely use the sdl app on raspi. |
| 12:17:47 | TorC | It makes the kind of familiar music I need to not distract myself too much a /lot/ more interesting without being more distracting |
| 12:17:58 | hayden | there's also the pure cli 'warble' codec test suite that functions as a basic commandline player |
| 12:18:13 | hayden | with seek, volume, ...basic playback and control features. |
| 12:18:53 | TorC | Maybe, but I'll keep my Random Folder Advance to random play a mix of songs and in order albums. |
| 12:19:49 | hayden | well, anyway, yeah - think of the sdl desktop app as a touchscreen Rockbox target (if you've ever used one) with a display size you can decide arbitrarily. |
| 12:20:07 | hayden | you can generate a binary of any resolution, and it has zooming features. |
| 12:20:20 | hayden | errr, scaling, I should say. |
| 12:20:40 | TorC | I use ls|while read f; do mkdir "`basename $f $ext`"; mv "$f" "`basename "$f" $ext`"; echo $dir >> folder_advance_list.txt; done quite a bit to add music |
| 12:21:23 | TorC | Haven't used a touch target, and am not a fan of touchscreens in the first place. |
| 12:21:39 | | Nick hayden is now known as [Saint] (~saint@rockbox/staff/saint) |
| 12:22:04 | TorC | Good to know on the SDL app. I'll keep it in mind, though hopefully the clips I've got will keep me for a while |
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| 16:09:43 | Ivoah | I can get the normal iPod OS to boot fine, but rockbox says it can't find rockbox.ipod |
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| 16:24:26 | Ivoah | is the dev version of rockbox stable enough to be used regularly? |
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| 16:33:26 | pamaury | Ivoah: I know next to nothing about iPods but I think I was told the dev version is quite stable, at least on most ipods |
| 16:34:02 | pamaury | however if it says missing rockbox.ipod it probably means you didn't install rockbox but only the bootloader |
| 16:35:20 | Ivoah | pamaury: I had it working before, but I fixed it anyways by reinstalling rockbox |
| 16:35:31 | pamaury | ah ok |
| 16:35:32 | Ivoah | how do I launch pacbox? |
| 16:35:39 | Ivoah | it's not in the games list |
| 16:36:15 | pamaury | no idea, did you check if it's not in the other list by mistakes ? Or maybe it is not compiled for your target for some reason |
| 16:36:35 | Ivoah | the wiki page says it supports the iPod 4g |
| 16:36:49 | Ivoah | and it's not in the other lists |
| 16:37:28 | pamaury | I don't know then, you can check whether the binary is in the .rockbox/plugins directory but since I never used it I can't say more |
| 16:38:05 | Ivoah | okay |
| 16:38:21 | Ivoah | also, is the only way to access the FS from a computer to boot into disk mode? |
| 16:38:34 | Ivoah | or can rockbox act like a flash drive too |
| 16:42:20 | Ivoah | there is a file called pdbox.rock in .rockbox/rocks/viewers |
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| 16:44:11 | pamaury | Ivoah: rockbox can act like a flash drive (unless your target doesn't have a stable usb driver) |
| 16:44:53 | Ivoah | pamaury: How would I enable that? When I plug it in it becomes a remote |
| 16:45:41 | pamaury | huh, it's the default behavior, so maybe it is not enabled on the ipods |
| 16:46:06 | pamaury | have you read the manual ? maybe it has an answer ? |
| 16:46:43 | Ivoah | I'll poke around some more before resorting to reading the manual |
| 16:46:58 | Ivoah | also, for pacbox, I installed the rom files where it says to |
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| 16:55:32 | gevaerts | When you plug in it becomes a device with two functions, mass storage *and* HID |
| 16:56:17 | Ivoah | Yeah, just found that out |
| 16:56:20 | Ivoah | thanks anyways |
| 16:56:45 | Ivoah | gevaerts: Can you help me with pacbox? |
| 16:57:05 | gevaerts | No. I've never used that |
| 16:57:17 | Ivoah | :( |
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| 17:51:31 | pixelma | I *believe* pacbox only works on greyscale targets, maybe the drawing routines were never adapted to colour screens. |
| 17:53:01 | pixelma | hmm, no |
| 17:56:02 | pixelma | the other way round - it works on colour screens if they are "big enough" and on the H100s and the M5 but no other greyscale target |
| 17:58:23 | pixelma | so the question is which Ipod 4G you have, Ivoah (if I understood you correctly about your player). There is an Ipod 4th generation greyscale and the Ipod Color |
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| 22:07:31 | Ivoah | pixelma: I have an iPod 4g greyscale |
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| 22:46:27 | TorC | Took a look through the code for Text Viewer to see about getting bookmarking working on the Zip. |
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| 22:47:33 | TorC | Since the bug seems to be deeper in the code than TV (specifically, some combined keys are broken on the Zip), the quick and dirty solution is to change the key combination to one that does work. |
| 22:48:21 | | Quit Rower (Quit: Hmmm...) |
| 22:48:24 | TorC | Select+Up would be one possibility that has worked for me in a game. |
| 22:48:52 | TorC | This also doesn't have dangerous side effects with either key in TV |
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| 22:50:09 | TorC | Lines 208-219 in rockbox.git/apps/plugins/text_viewer/tv_button.h define TV's private keymap for all clips. |
| 22:50:47 | TorC | Changing that would also affect Clip/Clip+, which might/might not be a good idea. |
| 22:51:44 | | Quit pablo_pi_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) |
| 22:51:58 | TorC | The other possibility (since I doubt TV changes much) might be to offer a compiled binary of TV with the change made that people can download and replace manually if the lack of bookmarks bothers them. |
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| 22:53:08 | saratoga_ | anyone know about this USB question: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,48549.msg234894.html#msg234894 |
| 22:53:16 | | Part LinusN |
| 22:53:19 | TorC | Thoughts on such a TV binary? |
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| 22:55:01 | TorC | I'd have to put in a good bit of work to compile any part of RB, but IIUC the actual change and compiling would be pretty simple. |
| 22:55:27 | saratoga_ | a lot of button combinations can't be used because of the keyscan read out on the zip's board |
| 22:55:41 | | Quit pablo_pi (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
| 22:55:55 | TorC | And the Select+Down that TV uses for bookmarking is one such. |
| 22:56:46 | TorC | Select+Up has worked in a game, so I was asking about changing/making a manually updatable binary for the Zip based on that |
| 22:56:46 | saratoga_ | you can check the wiki, i don't recall |
| 22:57:07 | saratoga_ | if its unused and you update the manual i don't see a problem |
| 22:58:51 | TorC | Unused in TV, which seems to have a private keymap, so it shouldn't be much an issue. |
| 22:59:45 | TorC | Can download the files, make diffs, and send those to a dev, or do I need to (attempt) registering on gerrit? |
| 23:00 |
| 23:01:27 | saratoga_ | you could post a patch and ask someone to commit it |
| 23:02:38 | TorC | I'll look into it. |
| 23:03:51 | TorC | There is this pastebin http://pastebin.ca/3015420 that is a fix for where text viewer stores setting/bookmarks. |
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| 23:10:36 | TorC | Is the format of the aforementioned pastebin patch suitable for inclusion by a dev, or would I need to do something different? |
| 23:11:29 | saratoga_ | as long as it applies to the current source |
| 23:13:02 | TorC | Which it does. |
| 23:13:47 | TorC | Or perhaps a couple commits back by now, but I doubt it matters. |
| 23:14:06 | saratoga_ | does that apply? |
| 23:14:56 | saratoga_ | the file it patches doesn't even exist in rockbox |
| 23:16:35 | saratoga_ | i think you mean manual / plugins / text_viewer.tex |
| 23:17:17 | TorC | Oh, right. The download changed slashes to underscores on me, and I missed that. |
| 23:17:33 | TorC | Sorry about that. |
| 23:18:18 | saratoga_ | also the tex file name |
| 23:18:37 | saratoga_ | its a good idea to try applying to the clean source code |
| 23:21:07 | TorC | Right. It was small enough that I'd only grabbed the one file. Guess I'll see about downloaded the whole thing before I pass over the other patch. |
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| 23:24:21 | saratoga_ | let me see if i can commit the idea of that patch from here |
| 23:24:31 | saratoga_ | ah no i can't |
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| 23:28:47 | TorC | That same problem again. |
| 23:30:13 | TorC | I'm cloning the repo now, so I'll see about a better patch for this at the same time. |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).