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#rockbox log for 2015-08-25

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00:22:16[Saint]it's './path/to/ −−prefix=/path/to/desired/toolchain/location/", right?
00:23:40[Saint]hmmm, apparently not.
00:23:42 Nick suYin is now known as suYin`OFF (
00:35:18[Saint]Ah, got it.
00:35:30[Saint]Albeit in a kind of silly way, but, I got it.
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01:13:35***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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02:25:23n1ckyanyone have experience using a 128gb microsd card in the clip zip?
02:25:43n1ckythey've come down to the extent that they're somewhat affordable now honestly.
02:27:08n1cky $60
02:32:50Galoisyou mean with rockbox?
02:33:21n1ckywhat are the limits on FAT anyway?
02:33:24Galois I think that applies to all sansas
02:33:51n1ckyahh shoot, FAT32 can't do more than 32GB partitions in the first place.
02:34:01GaloisI think if you use linux you can format a large FAT32 partition
02:34:16Galois(which will then work in windows after having been formatted)
02:34:57n1ckysidenote: something i've noticed in using rockbox again for the first time in a few years (got a clip zip) is that the documentation never says that the partition table need be DOS
02:35:27Galoishere's a way to do it in windows.
02:36:01n1ckyGalois: thanks for the links.
02:36:37n1ckyi know the wiki will-never page says that alternative filesystems are out of the question, whens the last time that's been reconsidered?
02:38:47n1ckyext2 is smaller than you might expect
02:38:50Galois"Support for newer FAT variants (e.g. exFAT) would also be strongly considered as they become more widely used." presumably that time is now, or really soon
02:39:46n1ckyif you have /usr/src/linux populated, look at fs/ext2/ sometime. It's relatively tiny.
02:40:08n1ckyless than 10kloc
02:40:37n1cky(for reference, ext4 = 49kloc)
02:41:41n1cky(fat = 7.6kloc)
02:41:52GaloisI agree that something other than FAT32 is a necessary feature these days. FAT32 is inadequate for modern devices.
02:42:11n1ckywhat modern devices does rockbox target?
02:42:26n1ckyseems to me that most people have sadly moved onto smartphones
02:43:09Galoisok, well, more accurately, FAT32 is one of like a bazillion things that rockbox needs in order to keep up with modern devices
02:43:28Galoisarrgh, I meant "something better than FAT32"
02:43:35n1ckyi understood what you meant.
03:07:28[Saint]Errr...there's so much wrong here it's not funny.
03:07:49[Saint]The limit for FAT32 is 4TB
03:08:15[Saint]Any tool that refuses to format a 64GB+ volume as FAT is doing it for absolutely no reason at all.
03:08:43[Saint]TL;DR: yes, you can use a 128GB sdcard in a Clip* device with Rockbox as FAT32.
03:09:28[Saint]The sd spec dictates that sd volumes of 64GB and greater must ship to the client formatted as exFAT.
03:09:42[Saint]But there's absolutely nothing that states that it must be kept this way.
03:09:53[Saint]And any formatting tool that isn;t a pile of shit is happy to do so.
03:10:01[Saint]n1cky: ^
03:10:55[Saint]Galois: ...why?
03:11:13[Saint]Do you regularly use files that are greater than 4GB on a digital audio player?
03:11:22[Saint]If not...
03:11:58[Saint]The only reason to use exFAT is so that people don't get confused and large format sdcard work out of the box.
03:12:11[Saint]But if you're capable of installing Rockbox in the first place you can format an sdcard.
03:12:58[Saint]The only real reason to use exFAT is if you're playing or recording truly _giant_ (4GB+) media files.
03:13:08[Saint]I suspect this does not happen a lot. If ever.
03:13:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:22:55[Saint]That's like....ummmm....shit, math...errrr...a week solid worth of audio?
03:23:15[Saint]6.9 days of continuous mp3@ 320
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03:26:31[Saint]Galois: n1cky: If either one of you can come up with a compelling reason as to why Rockbox actually _needs_ exFAT...I'm all ears.
03:26:58[Saint]To date, there's none I'm aware of.
03:29:19[Saint]Or any other filesystem for that matter. We don't need a permissions or ownership system, we don't need journaling, we don't have a compelling use case for very large files (4GB+), FAT32 covers the entire unicode glyph set barring a few exceptions, ...I really can't see it.
03:31:05[Saint]If there's a valid reason you're aware of for why Rockbox "needs" "something other than FAT32", and/or an explanation as to why FAT32 is "inadequate for modern devices"...I'd love to hear it dude.
03:32:36 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection)
03:32:56[Saint]Alternatively it's also OK to say you were talking out your bumhole.
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04:33:23n1cky[Saint]: i just googled, "fat32 partition size limit" and google gave me a bad answer from technet that was related to Windows 98 / Windows 2000
04:39:22n1cky[Saint]: my main issues with FAT32 are:
04:39:47n1cky1: no symbolic links, wish that I could organize my library around them.
04:39:53n1cky2: filename limitations
04:41:03n1ckyI'll agree totally that rockbox does not need a journaling filesystem or a filesystem that supports large files.
04:41:28n1ckybut ext2 does not have journaling, and while it supports large files there's no real disadvantage for it.
04:42:27n1cky[Saint]: FAT32 may be good enough for everything rockbox needs but that doesn't mean there aren't more modern filesystems that fit all of the same requirements.
04:42:56n1ckyFAT32's limitations do not necessarily mean that it comes with a direct benefit in performance / speed / simplicity
05:04:42Galois[Saint]: The formatting tools that ship with Windows XP/Vista/7/8/10 won't create FAT32 volumes larger than 32GB
05:05:39GaloisI don't know the reason why, but I suspect it's because Microsoft wants people to stop using FAT32
05:06:26Galoisso, you can't just clicky-click and format a large FAT32 volume. You need to install extra software, or install linux, or be running linux, or otherwise be doing something unusual
05:07:56Galoisthe filename limitations are actually a serious issue, and in addition FAT32 has a 256-character limit on filename length
05:08:51Galoisnone of these issues is serious by itself, but well, if I have a choice (and I do), then I'm just going to use Android, which supports nice wonderful ext4 goodness and doesn't have these problems
05:11:10n1ckythe blobs in this directory:
05:11:18n1ckywhere do they come from?
05:11:46n1ckysansa provided a blob which we patch?
05:13:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
05:18:06Galoisactually it seems that the 255-char pathname limit is in the win32 api, not the filesystem
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06:59:09amiconnVFAT has a name entry length limit of 255 unicode characters (more precisely 255 utf-16 code units)
07:00:47amiconnThis is per component, not total path length
07:02:09amiconnTotal path length in windows is limited to 260 characters when using the old api, and 32767 characters when using the unicode api
07:03:38amiconnThis is independent of file system
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08:01:21[Saint]n1cky: No, for reasons of legality we don't ship any OEM files
08:01:50[Saint]The bootloader is all our code, and it gets patched into an original firmware image you supply at install time.
08:02:15[Saint]either with the Rockbox Utility front end or using mkamsboot directly.
08:04:29[Saint]I didn't mean to come off so harsh before, I'm admittedly a bit grumpy from having to go nil-by-mouth since midnight last night for a surgery and I'm not too fond of the "we need something other than FAT32" debate which gets dragged up by various people a couple of times each year.
08:04:55[Saint]Realistically speaking no one is ever going to hit one of the limitations of FAT32 in any normal use case.
08:09:52[Saint]Regarding the bootloaders, while we /probably/ could slide under the radar and ship patched factor images for the Sansas, it's not worth the risk and it's just infinitely easier to have the user supply the firmware image and have them patch it with RbUtil or mkamsboot.
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14:10:27wodzgevaerts: ping
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14:49:58gevaertswodz: pong?
15:00:14wodzgevaerts: I am playing around with compiling rb app for symbian 9.3. Thats odd platform and our makefile system barfs about some gcc opts I extracted from symbian sdk. I need to pass '-include /home/wodz/S60v3/s60-sdk/epoc32/include/gcce/gcce.h' which provides some symbian specific stuff but if I simply add it to GCCOPTS I get '/home/wodz/rockbox/lib/rbcodec/codecs/codecs.make:140: *** missing separator. Stop.'
15:00:24wodzgevaerts: Any clue?
15:04:29wodzgevaerts: I find some attempts here
15:08:38gevaertsI suspect that's related to the SOURCES files being preprocessed, so that -include also applying to those
15:10:09*gevaerts speculates
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15:12:16wodzgevaerts: Any idea where to hack it in so it gets included before anything else and not interfere with other stuff?
15:13:39*gevaerts thinks he's right
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15:14:15gevaertsGCCOPTS is added to CFLAGS near the top of root.make. CFLAGS is then used to build PPCFLAGS, which is used to preprocess SOURCES
15:15:17gevaertsYou could try adding it to CFLAGS after that line
15:17:31gevaertsFor a proper solution I think we'd have to split GCCOPTS
15:17:46 Quit Cust0sLim3n (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
15:17:54wodzhmm, no go
15:18:41wodzI added CFLAGS += -include /home/wodz/S60v3/s60-sdk/epoc32/include/gcce/gcce.h *after* PPCFLAGS in root.make
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15:18:47wodzgevaerts: ^
15:18:58gevaertsActually, I wonder why GCCOPTS is needed in PPCFLAGS at all. That one clearly needs INCLUDES and DEFINES, but GCCOPTS should be mostly about optimising and CPU settings, which shouldn't matter for preprocessing I think
15:19:18*gevaerts tries to remember the differenece between := and =
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15:20:50gevaertswodz: what if you change the = afyter PPCFLAGS into :=?
15:21:49wodzIn file included from <command line>:2:
15:21:49wodz/home/wodz/S60v3/s60-sdk/epoc32/include/gcce/gcce.h:161:1: config.h: No such file or directory
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15:22:37wodz161 is actually the end of gcce.h
15:23:35gevaertsWhere does it say that? An actual attempt at compilation, or is it still trying to get the entire makefile system parsed?
15:24:29wodztons of this when I do make bin
15:24:41wodzbut before any compilation
15:25:07gevaertsOK, so something else is still trying to use GCCOPTS somehow
15:26:40gevaerts(or CFLAGS)
15:31:05gevaertswodz: you could try removing all that and setting your -i in root.make in the actual CC rules
15:31:41*wodz tries
15:32:11gevaertsThat's not *complete*, as in it won't apply to (all?) plugins and things like that, but I think it should get the core built
15:32:56*gevaerts doesn't really understand why the CFLAGS thing doesn't work. CFLAGS doesn't seem to be used in a makefile building related way anywhere else
15:34:58wodzYour proposition works a bit better. Now I am bitten by lang.h not found
15:35:30*gevaerts also wants to throw things at people who think having to add -i to CFLAGS is a reasonable requirement for a toolchain
15:36:40wodzgevaerts: Yep, the whole idea of gcce.h is utterly broken
15:37:00gevaertslang.make also has some explicit compilation rules
15:37:40gevaertsIf you add the -i thing to line 34 in there you should get further I think
15:38:18gevaertsBut we really want it in CFLAGS itself eventually. This stacking of workarounds isn't really nice
15:38:44*gevaerts wonders...
15:42:22wodzNow it tries to compile but produces myriads of errors from .h files
15:43:23gevaertswodz: it would be useful to see what happens with (and no other makefile changes)
15:44:24wodzgevaerts: regular build or with symbian toolchain and braindead -i ?
15:44:43gevaertssymbian, with the -i in GCCOPTS
15:46:12gevaertsIf that works, we should test if nothing else breaks with those (rebuild the lot twice, once without and once with that change), and if all is fine just push that bit. The SDL stuff also comes from GCCOPTS, which means the filter-out call could also go
15:46:33gevaertsI can probably do a set of full builds tomorrow
15:49:19wodzgevaerts: Now it can't find standard headers
15:50:15wodzgevaerts: Before it starts to compile something. However lang.h is generated
15:50:56wodzah, not. It fails at building dependencies list
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15:53:09wodzmoving some -I to TARGET_INC helps a bit but still no go
15:55:23gevaertsHmmm, that leads to mkdepfile in functions.h
15:56:04gevaertsAnd that one also has -include config.h, which would be related to what you saw earlier
15:57:42gevaertsMaybe add CFLAGS there?
15:59:33wodzgevaerts: After moving some stuff to TARGET_INC the compilation starts but I am stuck at DIR not defined
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16:03:55gevaertsDoes symbian have that?
16:04:29gevaertsMaybe it's in a different header we need to include as well?
16:05:11wodzits rather hard to search for DIR as it is so general term
16:06:33wodzwhere DIR should be defined actually?
16:13:33wodzOk, on my linux box it is in dirent.h. There is no such thing in symbian posix layer :/
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20:18:07FrowardHello! I have an ancient (5G) ipod that would be a good candidate for Rockbox. Unfortunately it refuses to even charge (it gives a very weak battery icon, the backlight never comes on −− all while plugged in) or mount.
20:18:40FrowardSo, my questions are 1) are there any obvious fixes for this and 2) would any of you happen to have any ideas for fun stuff to do with the hardware?
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20:19:12Frowardconsidering the hard drive is 90% of the space inside, it might be possible −− though unlikely −− to replace it with a flash card.
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20:26:54FrowardI gotta go soon, but I'll be back later.
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21:23:04FrowardHi I'm back :)
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21:34:17amayerFroward: how long have you let it charge?
21:34:42amayerWhen ever my ipod goes dead I usually need to let it charge for 10-15 min before it can actually boot
21:35:55Frowardabout two hours
21:36:17Frowardit'll get a lil tiny battery icon for maybe five seconds. the backlight doesn't come on (or it's very very dim)
21:39:16amayeryeah that doesnt sound good
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22:46:55Petri152So, um... *ahem* any news on an iPod Classic stable release? :P
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23:03:46n1cky[Saint]: you weren't harsh, no worries. I like when people can argue about things eloquently.
23:04:36n1cky[Saint]: and you're right. FAT32 really doesn't hit many limitations. I'd be nice to be able to do symlinks, but that's fluff honestly.
23:05:49n1ckyone thing to remember to do: documentation needs to be updated so people know they need DOS partition tables.
23:06:01n1ckyat least for the clip zip, i imagine it's the case for other devices though.
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23:14:06***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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