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#rockbox log for 2015-08-31

00:00:38 Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP)
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13:12:10[Saint]Do we build Android on API16 or API19?
13:12:16[Saint]It's the latter, right?
13:13:33[Saint]AH, nope.
13:15:18 Join ZincAlloy [0] (
13:17:59[Saint] is.
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13:50:26[Saint]I can't build RaaA anymore.
14:01:26 Join ruhannn [0] (uid76353@gateway/web/
14:03:05[Saint]In a truly hilarious twist of events, I can build for bloody ypr*
14:03:15[Saint]...but not Android proper.
14:12:17[Saint]What's this shit about. configure is quite clearly lying about the Android toolchains not being in my $PATH
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16:00:52pizzaiolocan I permanently remove my original firmware from the ipod video?
16:03:30gevaertspizzaiolo: have a look at
16:03:44gevaertsYou can remove the main OF, but not the recovery mode
16:03:53pizzaiolothanks gevaerts, will have a look
16:03:58[Saint]you want 4) OSOS contains only Rockbox
16:04:08pizzaiolois it possible to run my ipod without any proprietary code?
16:04:15gevaertsWell, you can, technically, but then you'll have to write your own flashing code and replacement early boot code
16:04:24[Saint]^ that
16:04:40pizzaiolorockbox relies on the ipod's bootloader?
16:05:34pizzaiolomaybe u-boot could take care of that
16:06:15[Saint]In theory, possibly.
16:06:26[Saint]But I'm not positive about uboots PP coverage.
16:06:44[Saint]The SoC.
16:06:48pizzaioloI see
16:07:05pizzaiolodoes rockbox usually include bootloaders for devices whenever available?
16:07:39[Saint]not necessarily.
16:07:54[Saint]piggybacking off the original bootloader if possible is an obvious win.
16:08:39[Saint]there's not necessarily an objective with Rockbox to "FOSS All The Things(TM)" just because you theoretically could.
16:09:06pizzaiolooh I see
16:09:29pizzaiolothat's the reason I'm getting rockbox though :P
16:09:43pizzaioloI flashed my router with libreCMC, my phone with replicant
16:09:52pizzaiolomight flash my tv with samygo
16:10:12pizzaioloinstalling free software feels great :P
16:10:49[Saint]...wrapped your basement in foil and sleep in a Farraday cage. (sorry) ;)
16:11:17pizzaiolothere's no such thing as a tin foil hat in this post-snowden world ):
16:11:24 Join prof_wolfff [0] (
16:12:15[Saint]Replicant is the Android derivative of choice for masochists and/or people with waaaaaaaaaaaaayyy too much self loathing or time on their hands, lol.
16:12:46pizzaiolonah, you just need to agree with the free software philosophy :)
16:12:59pizzaioloit's not always convenient, that's true
16:13:05pizzaiolobut, such is life
16:13:51[Saint]If you wanted an iPod where you could remove almost every shred of proprietary code you would want an iPod Classic 6G
16:13:58gevaertsOne questions the concept of buying an ipod if that's one's philosophy
16:14:09[Saint]That's indeed true.
16:14:21pizzaioloyeah, I got it in 2006 though
16:14:29pizzaioloI didn't know about free software back then
16:14:33gevaertsBut yes, a classic might be better for you
16:14:54pizzaioloand I discovered about rockbox only this week
16:16:11[Saint]The plus side of rockbox.ipod in OSOS is the boot time is significantly faster with the stock disk.
16:16:24[Saint]The downside is updating becomes a pain in the dick.
16:16:43pizzaiolohow so?
16:16:58[Saint]Upgrading Rockbox and still maintaining that boot time increase becomes more complicated than just "extract zip to root".
16:17:13pizzaioloI see
16:17:22pizzaiolobut is the updating method trickier?
16:17:24[Saint]You need to flash rockbox.ipod for that specific Rockbox version _every time_ you upgrade Rockbox.
16:17:45[Saint]It's not difficult, no.
16:17:48 Quit alucryd_ (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
16:18:29*gevaerts points out that "flash" isn't really the right term here
16:18:37[Saint]I'm aware.
16:18:53[Saint]It's the term you have to use these days if you want peopel to know what you mean though.
16:19:14 Join alucryd [0] (~quassel@archlinux/developer/alucryd)
16:19:15[Saint]see also "Flashing" "ROM"s on smartphones.
16:19:32pizzaiolowhy is flashing wrong?
16:20:16[Saint]Flashing typically refers solely to EEPROM
16:20:19gevaertsBecause it's just put somewhere on the first partition, on disk
16:20:47pizzaioloah I see
16:21:19pizzaioloI suppose any firmware replacement is generally called flashing
16:21:25pizzaiolonowadays at least
16:21:31gevaertsIt's also not dangerous, as the in-rom USB mode still works
16:22:07[Saint]As long as you use our toolset as described you absolutely cannot hurt this thing.
16:22:38[Saint]It's technically possible to go to some great lengths very deliberately and render the device unusable though.
16:22:49[Saint]but you'll never do it accidentally.
16:23:27gevaertsNice? Really? This relies on the original boot code you don't like! :)
16:24:04pizzaiolohm I suppose you're right
16:24:19gevaerts(which is why we tend to keep it around)
16:24:32pizzaioloto avoid bricking it?
16:24:56[Saint]If we had full documentation on this SoC things would be a remarkably different story.
16:24:58gevaertsWith early boot code you tend to only get one chance
16:25:20pizzaioloit feels like you folks went 99% of the way to free it, but 1% remained :P
16:25:24[Saint]But even then I'm not sure if anyone would consider it worthwhile to go on a crusade to wipe out their early boot setup routines.
16:26:06gevaertsThat last 1% would result in loads of bricked devices
16:26:28Galoispizzaiolo: do you install free BIOSes on your computer too?
16:26:52gevaertsAnd it's *boot* code. None of this runs once rockbox is loaded
16:26:57pizzaioloI bought a macbook2,1 to flash (install) libreboot
16:27:01Galoisdo you use free replacement Intel CPU microcode updates?
16:27:20[Saint]libre BMC ROMs? ;)
16:27:25pizzaioloI'm not sure there is a replacement for the microcode updates
16:28:22pizzaiolocoreboot folks are working on freeing the embedded controller too
16:28:23[Saint]another good one, HDD controllers.
16:28:26GaloisBIOS is similar in functionality to the rockbox bootloader. Microcode updates are similar in difficulty (both have code signing)
16:28:51pizzaiolo[Saint] theoretically you could run your system on a usb stick
16:28:56pizzaioloto avoid HDD firmware
16:29:09GaloisUSB drive controllers can get infected with viruses too!
16:29:27[Saint]If you fully trust the ARM core that's likely driving that stick...
16:29:38gevaertspizzaiolo: why is usb stick firmware more trustworthy than hdd firmware?
16:29:53pizzaioloI'm more interested in the freedom aspect than security to be honest, although security is important
16:29:58[Saint]FOSS tinfoil hat-ism is a slippery slope of denial.
16:30:28Galoissure, there is stuff like controllerless flash ... but almost nobody uses that
16:30:37pizzaioloI don't think so, we acknowledge how hard it is
16:31:04pizzaioloideally we'd need to start making our own free designs
16:31:13pizzaioloto avoid further encroachment
16:31:27[Saint]shits expensive, yo.
16:31:39pizzaiolowe'll need to crowdfund like hell
16:32:26[Saint]and if you wanted to get it certified to run on a given network you can't do the whole open baseband thing.
16:32:37[Saint]which fucks the entire concept.
16:33:11pizzaiolowrong link
16:33:39pizzaiolothat's the rundown of what is still to be done
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16:35:36Galoisso USB drives avoid at least the DMA issues with internal buses
16:47:48pizzaioloI've been reading on wikipedia but I found no info on this: is rockbox a linux/busybox distro?
16:48:13pizzaiolowhat is it based on?
16:48:23gevaertsrockbox :)
16:48:35pizzaiolooh, it doesn't use the linux kernel?
16:49:56gevaertslinux might be usable for the newer devices, but when rockbox got started there was 2MB to play with. After loading linux that doesn't leave much for buffering
16:50:12pizzaiolomakes sense
16:50:28pizzaioloipodlinux was based on uclinux though
16:51:07gevaertsYes, but ipodlinux runs on ipods, which (those, anyway) have at least 32MB RAM
16:51:22gevaertsA sansa clip v1 has 2.3MB
16:52:02gevaertsThat's a flash device, so spin ups don't matter, but still
16:52:49gevaertsThe Archos Jukebox (which is where it all started) had 2MB and a 2.5" hard drive. That means spin ups are expensive battery-wise, which means every KB of buffer space matters
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17:06:42pizzaiolois it presently possible to run emCORE with ipod video?
17:10:07pizzaioloah nevermind, found the answer
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17:50:02n1cky[Saint]: I agree 100%. Stallman seems to make a whole lot of sense until you get to the part where he says, "But if it's not modifiable it can be treated as a circuit!"
17:53:05pizzaiolothis is actually a compromise
17:53:41pizzaiolothe FSF is willing to revisit that definition when more free firmware is produced
18:00:18pamauryMore on the freedom of bootloader: rewritting extremely low level stuff (like RAM init and so one) for Rockbox is a waste of time in my opinion. You could do it, it would take a lot of time (it's often undocumented). You have to rewrite it for each device basically (so nearly no reusability) and you'll end writing the exact same code as the manufacturer. Not to mention the increased risk of bricking.
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22:27:42pizzaiolois it possible to find out my ipod video's serial number under rockbox?
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