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#rockbox log for 2016-07-15

00:00:17[Saint]we are significantly more awesome than the foobar2000 project. ;)
00:00:34[Saint]and in a lot of areas significantly more efficient.
00:01:24[Saint]but - we can afford to be, we're not building a generic product. so there's a clear advantage to us there I suppose.
00:03:34skrzypand it doesn't require to use any closed components I think
00:04:56skrzypOr, are there any binary blobs left in Rockbox to support certain players?
00:06:14[Saint]No. We're entirely free, however you wish to quantify that word in terms of software development, it applies.
00:06:33gevaertsdefine "in rockbox"
00:06:35[Saint]free as in freedom, beer, libre/gnu philosophy, you name it.
00:07:02gevaertsWe do piggy-back on the OF for booting on some players, mostly to allow dual boot and to reduce risk
00:07:11skrzypgevaerts: in the resulting binary file to be flashed onto device's ROM space
00:07:15[Saint]though I guess our re-use of the OF for the boot chain might ruffle some GNU feathers.
00:07:24[Saint]ah, too late, gevaerts just tackled that.
00:07:37skrzyp[Saint]: I'm not a GNU purist, don't worry
00:08:04[Saint]In some devices we can completely remove the original firmware if that is what you desire.
00:08:15[Saint]this is not the Sansas, however.
00:08:42skrzypIt's okay only if it give me more ROM space to add plugins or something else
00:08:53gevaertsThose aren't in ROM anyway
00:09:32skrzypOh, are they loaded from HD/SD/MMC/other storage? nice.
00:09:45[Saint]We *could* replace the original firmware and boot chain on all the targets but as gevaerts alluded to it is fundamentally unsafe to do so for many targets as we use the original firmware to do the lowlevel hardware setup of the device, and to provide an escape route for device recovery.
00:10:16gevaertsI'm fairly sure making a fully free bootloader for the sansas will cost several devices
00:10:24[Saint]For devices with an independent recovery method, ie. iPods, we can remove almost all traces of the original firmware and boot chain.
00:10:28gevaertsGet it wrong, and goodbye :)
00:10:32*[Saint] nods
00:11:21[Saint]skrzyp: it might perhaps interest you to note that for almost all of our targets even the main Rockbox binary is too.
00:11:41[Saint]In many cases the bootloader involves modification of the original firmware to provide a jump point to our code.
00:11:52[Saint]the Rockbox binary is loaded from user storage.
00:11:54***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:12:06gevaertsWell, with "almost all" being defined as "on some targets you have the option to put the main binary in flash" :)
00:12:11skrzypthat's what I used for booting Linux on HTC phones/PDAs with Windows Mobile
00:12:20skrzypor Siemens SX1
00:12:43[Saint]gevaerts: yeah - granted, I could've worded that a lot better.
00:12:45skrzypthe Windows Mobile "hack" was called HaRET and it booted Linux kernel from sdcard partition right after loading Windows
00:12:55*[Saint] is never sure precisely how technical and/or vague to be.
00:13:38[Saint]But, yeah, devices where we actually put the Rockbox binary in non-user storage are very rare.
00:13:48skrzypother question - how's with Unicode support in rockbox?
00:14:14[Saint]We have support for all major (and a shittonne of minor) encoding formats.
00:14:33skrzypI would like to have Polish characters in fonts, do I need to somehow draw/convert new fonts or use TTF/PCF fonts?
00:15:04gevaertsrasher.dk/rockbox/fontstats/">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/fontstats/ might help
00:15:10[Saint]You can do so if you desire, we do provide a font pack which can provide a font with those glyphs.
00:15:35[Saint]though if you don't want your eyes to catch fire you might want to convert your own antialiased font to suit your needs.
00:15:47gevaertsBah!
00:15:54gevaertsSharp fonts or nothing!
00:15:56[Saint]GNU Unifont (the font with INCREDIBLY wide glyph coverage) is hideous.
00:16:11skrzyplooks like I need LATIN EXTENDED-A range
00:16:50ZincAlloytotally depends on the size for me. small sizes are fine without anti aliasing
00:16:52[Saint]Our wiki provides details on font conversion using either BDF or TTF original fonts.
00:18:07skrzypI should go deeper trough wiki then
00:22:34[Saint]Unfortunately your chosen device doesn't leave you with a hell of a lot of options for clearly rendering non-latin glyphs.
00:22:47[Saint]The screens on these devices are....less than stellar.
00:22:51 Quit paulk-collins (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
00:22:55[Saint]To put it mildly.
00:23:23*ZincAlloy drew his own pixel fonts for his clip zip
00:23:48[Saint]If you want the glyphs to be legible, you need to make some heavy sacrifices on how much content you're willing to lose on screen at any one given time.
00:24:05skrzyp[Saint]: IIf I'm able to convert BDF fonts I'll use creep/lime/whatever was that called.
00:24:10[Saint]devices with larger and significantly less shit displays don't have that issue.
00:24:13skrzypThis is a 5x4 font
00:24:46[Saint]yeah, at that kind of resolution any accented characters are going to pretty much be indistinguishable blobs.
00:25:39skrzypThat wasn't an issue on Nokia phones with 94x54 displays, so I don't think that would be problematic here
00:25:50[Saint]5x4 is only really going to provide you with glyphs you can actually use in the aA~zZ 0~9 range.
00:27:11[Saint]if our font conversion was absolutely perfect I would have a lot more faith in the ability to display legible characters in this range.
00:27:18[Saint]but it isn't, and I don't have any.
00:27:20[Saint]Sorry.
00:28:28[Saint]I guess you'll discover what works for you in a trial and error stage. when you have your hands on the hardware.
00:29:06[Saint]I just don't want to instill you with masses of confidence in this specific area.
00:30:24skrzypMaking custom themes doesn't look that hard
00:31:27[Saint]It isn't.
00:31:27[Saint]But I am quite a bit biased here. I had a pretty large input in shaping the theme syntax we use today - so it's kinda my baby in some regards.
00:32:09skrzypLooks like formats used in Conky or irrsi
00:32:14ZincAlloyit really isn't. until you try to do something that can't be done ^^
00:32:38[Saint]Bah, the only real limit with the syntax we have now is the author.
00:32:55[Saint]There's very little that "can't be done" if the author is sufficiently creative and determined.
00:33:29[Saint]That was one of my areas of attack in nutting out the engine, parser, and modern syntax used today.
00:33:47ZincAlloyI was trying to layer something semitransparent and text on an album cover.
00:34:02[Saint]this can be done.
00:34:29[Saint]order of execution bites people in the arse when they try to do this, though. So one needs to be very careful with how the theme is parsed.
00:35:17[Saint]Since we have no concept of layering or any direct concept of order of execution the parser serves this function by way of rendering things as they are parsed.
00:35:37[Saint]you can get creative with state dependent loops to try and ensure a specific order of execution.
00:35:40skrzypCan it slown down the CPU when one uses complex themes and formatting?
00:35:52[Saint]happy to help if you want to dig the work up again at some point.
00:36:00[Saint]skrzyp: yes.
00:36:21[Saint]though on this particular target you'll hit the buffer limits long before you bog the CPU down.
00:36:35ZincAlloylet me look up the theme on my backup drive..
00:38:03[Saint]skrzyp: the target you have is fairly limited in terms of resources, and the theme buffer and the audiobuffer share the same pool.
00:38:07ZincAlloyI've only saved the graphics
00:38:21[Saint]So the fatter your theme gets, the less room you have for audio buffer.
00:38:41[Saint]which can make the device significantly less efficient.
00:38:45skrzyp[Saint]: but I'm going to not use any graphics, maybe album art as background
00:39:03ZincAlloyhttps://picload.org/image/rrdwpwga/artfreakconcept.png
00:39:19[Saint]yes, and fullscreen album art uses a considerable amount of the buffer you'll have available.
00:39:42skrzyp[Saint]: I've considered Fuze+ too, but its touch panel wasn't look good for using it inside pocket
00:39:54[Saint]the theme engine also reserves two fullscreen bitmaps worth of space for the theme buffer right off the bat.
00:40:02[Saint]and your font also needs to chare this buffer.
00:40:06[Saint]and icons, etc.
00:40:14[Saint]you will be using graphics, and they do have a cost.
00:40:27[Saint]*share
00:41:00ZincAlloyI'll try to put it together when I have time
00:41:09[Saint]You can make the font rendering somewhat more efficient by putting a hard cap on how many different glyphs can be in the font cache at any one given time.
00:41:30[Saint]this gets a lot easier if you're using latin alphanumeric glyphs only.
00:42:10[Saint]Anyhow - my basic point is, on this target, you really don't have a hell of a lot of freedom in terms on the theme engine and system resources.
00:43:05[Saint]other targets have 16~32~64MB of RAM, of which Rockbox itself uses around ~6MB for itself, without the theme engine.
00:43:11[Saint]You have 8MB.
00:44:00skrzypso, why the Rockbox is bloody hell popular on Clip+/Clip (monochrome models) in Poland?
00:44:06 Quit athidhep (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
00:44:12[Saint]You'll either have a very pretty theme and virually no audio buffer, which will ruin your runtime. Or an ugly as Hell theme, and a larger audio buffer, and significantly better runtime.
00:44:13skrzypWhile they have very little amount of memory
00:44:46skrzypbut people are mostly happy with using those devices with Rockbox
00:45:30[Saint]Most likely because they don't know and/or don't care about how limited the resources are and that they may be shooting themselves in the foot regarding user experience.
00:45:38ZincAlloythey're super small and yet can handle a lot of storage. and they basically do everything other targets can do
00:45:53[Saint]I would posit that many of them are just using pure latin glyphs also.
00:46:38ZincAlloyand they're cheap. great value for money.
00:47:01[Saint]accessing flash storage is fairly inexpensive, in terms of power consumption, but having a very tiny audio buffer because your theme eats most of the available resources most definitely makes an observable hit in the total runtime.
00:48:09 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
00:48:17[Saint]with such limited resources you're pretty much forced into chosing directly between form or function.
00:48:20skrzyp[Saint]: there are only 16 additional characters to support: ąćęłńóśżź AĆĘŁŃÓŚŻŹ
00:48:26skrzypthis is not Kanji or something
00:49:11ZincAlloythe number is not the problem. it's the additional height some those characters need.
00:49:29[Saint]I would find it incredibly difficult to believe you'll render those legibly in 5x4
00:49:37[Saint]I actually find it frankly impossible.
00:50:06[Saint]they'll be indistinguishable blobs.
00:50:46skrzyp[Saint]: http://33degreesds.com/dragon33/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/type.png - here's what you should know
00:51:42[Saint]This tells me nothing I'm not aware of. I'm not sure I'm doing a good job of effectively communicating the problem to you.
00:52:09[Saint]there's absolutely no way in hell you'll render those glyphs legibly in 5x4 even if our font conversion was absolutely perfect.
00:52:29skrzypI'm not sure if we even have any problem in that context
00:52:57skrzyplet's just wait when the PP ship ClipZip to me
00:53:02[Saint]your 5x4 glyph size absolutely can not be accounting for glyph ascent and descent.
00:53:04skrzypand we'll see
00:54:47[Saint]the smallest font we offer (an embedded font designed for use if the shit hits the fan and there's no user supplied font or there are assets missing is 8x6 (from memory) including ascent and descent and is basically unusable.
00:55:23[Saint]bah
00:55:29*[Saint] throws a ) up there
00:56:00skrzyphmm
00:56:09skrzypdo we have any form of emulator?
00:56:20[Saint]We do.
00:56:39[Saint]You would need to compile it from source, however. We do not ship any.
00:57:04skrzypthat's not a problem
00:57:29[Saint]it's a simulator, though. not an emulator, that's definitely worth noting in this context.
00:58:27skrzypBut can it play sound as regular device?
00:58:34skrzypor only simulate the UX?
00:58:45[Saint]It can.
00:59:27[Saint]Ah, oh, that's right. Regarding the theme syntax, one of my favorite quotes from our GoldenQuotes Rockbox wiki page:
00:59:34[Saint]"<shiftplusone> It looks like regex written by a drunk cat on a keyboard.
00:59:34[Saint]*#raspberrypi channel moderator shiftplusone provides an amusing description of our theme engine markup"
01:00
01:10:35skrzyphttps://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13718801_1227898697242949_3374999316283651095_n.jpg?oh=cf387e218fe19fdfbca94d2ae2000d34&oe=5828F24C
01:10:38skrzypehh
01:10:45skrzypwrong window
01:10:49skrzypReceiving objects: 87% (8049/9149), 40.18 MiB | 171.00 KiB/s
01:11:03skrzypbut at least something is happening in that certain terminal
01:15:06skrzyp/home/skrzyp/Downloads/rockbox/firmware/export/hostfs.h:64:5: error: #error Unknown storage driver
01:15:14skrzypyeah, something happened
01:17:24skrzyplooks like using Normal build instead of Simulate helped
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01:27:14skrzypOkay, lots of text labels are mixed and used in completely other places
01:27:20skrzyp"exit" is "yes
01:27:22skrzypand so on
01:30:55[Saint]Our translation is user supplied and is only as good as any given native speaking contributor has made it.
01:31:07[Saint]We have a policy of not automatically translating anything.
01:31:17[Saint]translations must be submitted by a full native speaker.
01:32:38skrzypbut I used default english translation
01:32:49[Saint]see http://translate.rockbox.org/
01:32:50skrzypI think that's just a bug
01:33:23[Saint]Oh, I see.
01:33:24skrzypnow I'm rebuilding the Rockbox again to simulate other target
01:33:31skrzyplet's see
01:33:56[Saint]If you bailed out on a compile and then didn't do a clean make after the fact it is possible that you carried over corrupt assets.
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01:50:26skrzyplooks like that doesn't happen in Simulation mode
01:50:31skrzypsteps to reproduce:
01:50:35skrzyp1. clone latest -HEAD
01:50:46skrzyp2. configure as SDL target in normal mode
01:50:55skrzyp3. fullinstall in /usr/local
01:51:06skrzyp4. use fallback theme and english language
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02:48:17[Saint]skrzyp: wait, ...are you building the sim, or the SDL application?
02:48:31[Saint]They're two rather different things that serve very different purposes.
02:49:38skrzyp[Saint]: I was using SDL target first
02:49:42skrzypin Normal mode
02:49:48skrzypnow i use rockboxui sim
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13:02:05brickboxI believe I bricked my Sansa Clip+, searched forum for help and ended up here
13:03:55brickboxGot a Loading Firmware message on boot and was able to boot original firmware using left+power button procedure
13:04:25brickboxBut made a mistake to scan the device for errors and let Windows repair
13:04:45brickboxNow the Clip+ cannot be powered on
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13:14:22brickboxPC recognizes the device but only asks to format it
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13:22:04brickboxI thought I would ask here before trying Darko's unbricking tutorial
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13:48:16brickboxSorry for not explaining earlier but the Loading Firmware message appeared suddenly today after normally using the Clip+ for a year with RB installed
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14:24:15skrzypranmachan: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMSUnbrick http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaClipV2UnbrickingTutorial
14:25:48skrzypread this completely
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14:31:47brickboxThank you kindly skrzyp for the instructions
14:32:29brickboxSomething else I notice the Clip+ reports 30.6MB available space in properties it is a 4GB model
14:32:35skrzypbut please be careful
14:32:40skrzypI'm not a rockbox dev
14:34:11brickboxUnderstood, thank you for helping
14:34:33skrzypmake sure you have proper soldering skills
14:37:58brickboxFrom what I read 30.6MB reported available space commonly shows when the Clip hardware has failed, do you think this could be the case?
14:38:53skrzypMaybe it's different for other hardware revisions
14:38:58skrzypI'm not an expert, sorry
14:39:27skrzypbut I suggest you to hexdump the drive and look into its content
14:39:33skrzypor use strings, binwalk
14:42:36brickboxOk, I'll research it more
14:45:52ranmachanskrzyp: I think you meant to mention brickbox?
14:53:19skrzypprobably it's tabfail
14:54:05skrzypbut I haven't mentioned anyone…
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16:07:27gevaertsbrickbox: there are some stories of people supposedly having recovered "32MB" sansas, but I personally think it's provably hardware failure
16:07:53gevaerts(based on what people have reported here, not on personal experience)
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19:47:48T-rackdoes midknight2k3 still come here?
19:48:08T-rackzakk roberts?
19:49:32T-rackwe fell ouf several years ago
19:50:05T-rackhe called me a 'big know-it-all buafoon''
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20:13:19T-rackseriously does zakk roberts aka midknight2k3 still come here?
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20:15:06T-rackI haven't forgotton our grievance
20:18:12T-rackit may have been several years ago but I want answers
20:19:08__builtinT-rack: I don't believe so
20:19:11skrzypHmmm.
20:19:20skrzypClip Sport isn't supported yet, right?
20:19:32__builtinand it likely will never be
20:20:42T-rackhis username is midknight2k3
20:21:05skrzypo.o
20:21:23T-rackhttp://www.rockbox.org/irc/log-20030818
20:21:28T-rackthat will explain it
20:22:07T-rackMIDKNIGHT2K£
20:22:11T-rackMIDKNIGHT2k£
20:22:19T-rackMIDKNIGHT2K3
20:22:31T-rackZAKK ROBERTS
20:22:44skrzyp__builtin: ban.
20:22:55gevaertsT-rack: I believe you've asked what you wanted to ask. I don't think there's any reason to go on like that
20:23:14T-rackOK
20:23:52T-rackok sorry
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20:33:58T-rack09:06midknight2k3(i'm not saying i'm not such a baby) but still 09:06midknight2k3and THEN he will pout and not say anything 09:06midknight2k3an publicly advertise my own redzone 09:06midknight2k3I HATE THAT BUKENFLATZEN 09:06midknight2k4actually hes going by t-rack now 09:06midknight2k3i know 09:06midknight2k4...jackass 09:06midknight2k4lol 09:07midknight2k3and he is also going by "i am such a... 09:07midknight2k3
20:35:45Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
20:35:52Mode"#rockbox +q T-rack!*@*" by gevaerts (~fg@rockbox/developer/gevaerts)
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20:41:01__builtinhey, what's the different between the 6G's "bootloader usb mode" and having the designware driver merged in rockbox?
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20:44:29Mode"#rockbox -o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
20:44:39gevaerts__builtin: one is a driver and the other is a bootloader mode? :)
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