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#rockbox log for 2016-07-29

00:01:21saratogaShout: probably not, those devices have almost no memory and probably can't be programmed to do much
00:04:54Shoutaw man - because of course the clip zips have been discontinued and are majorly expensive
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00:55:44[Saint]I kinda feel sorry for the people buying the Sport or Jam on the back of assumption that it isn;t going to be too different internally and will likely be supported if not not then eventually.
00:56:33[Saint]Admittedly it isn't obvious that they would suddenly switch from hardware that was pretty clearly quite excessive to hardware that only just barely meets the minimum requirements.
00:57:20[Saint]Almost seems like they switch to someone else's dirt cheap reference design instead of using an in-house build.
00:57:50[Saint]I bet the BOM for the Sport or Jam isn't much more than a couple of dollars.
00:58:09[Saint]Something something, economy of scale, I guess.
00:59:26[Saint]I bet that we could come up with a reasonably priced "Rockbox Kit" with the Raspberry Pi zero and some of the off-the-shelf plug-and-play components from Adafruit or similar component vendors or wholesalers.
00:59:35[Saint]But it sure as shit wouldn't be pretty or reliable.
00:59:56[Saint]Or a nice form factor.
01:00:12[Saint]...or waterproof.
01:00:17[Saint]Or shock resistant.
01:01:30[Saint]But you could likely make a decent package for between $100 and $150 USD, including getting a case printed from a batch fabrication center.
01:01:46[Saint](or if you have your own 3D printer or CNC)
01:03:31[Saint]The only difficult part I can think of that drastically alters the build and can't really be done in any nice or remotely compact form factor with off the shelf parts would be making a daughterboard with a nicely routed GPIO header for supplying hardware keys.
01:04:54[Saint]But once a design was finalized, one person could send away and get one or two 16x16" double layer PCBs etched and then wear the initial cost and offset it by selling them off to other people.
01:05:02 Quit girafe (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:05:57[Saint]Then either spend the time populating them yourself and sell them for a little extra, or just sell bare boards and let other people populate them or sell them with the components inclusive and let the receiver populate the board.
01:14:01[Saint]Raspberry Pi zero, RTC module (off the shelf is large - this might be a candidate for a dedicated daughterboard as well for a nice form factor {perhaps on the back of the DPAD/hardware button daughterboard for a nice form factor, but complexity...}), sdcard, GPIO header strip, a half dozen momentary surface mount membrane switches,
01:14:01[Saint]1.1"~2" OLED display, 300~400mAh LiPo, two 3.5mm TRRS, a couple of slide action switches at least (power and hold - I'm a believer in dedicated fixed action switches for these) mic, DAC module (yet another candidate for a dedicated dauterboard unless we're willing to have a laughably large form factor where we may as well have a much larger display and battery if we do)
01:14:06[Saint]Ummm...what else.
01:15:10[Saint]oh, well, obvious things like a handful of resistors for reliable pullup/down from our hardware switches.
01:15:42[Saint]maybe a 7.5mm lineout as well, might as well.
01:16:47[Saint]passive amplifier (even with modular OPAMPs) could be added with a bare minimum of components, but then you'd get even more form factor woes.
01:18:11[Saint]I would definitely consider adding a second microsdcard reader for user storage and keeping the host OS and the boot partition to the main sdcard and keep the system read only for some degree of reliability.
01:19:48[Saint]I would likely build such a system around a debian armhf base image using the bare minimum of dependencies required to provide the SDL app.
01:20:29[Saint]footprint for the OS and boot partition would easily fit in a 2GB sdcard.
01:21:18[Saint]It would likely fit in under 1GB (512MB might be a stretch but doable), but microsd media that small is almost impossible to find these days.
01:22:06[Saint]The Raspberry Pi Zero itself is laughably difficult to find these days too, unfortunately.
01:22:27[Saint]And that's a real kick in the bum for us.
01:23:25[Saint]Because them the next best candidate becomes the Raspberry Pi Compute Module, and that increases the necessary complexity and cost by an order of magnitude.
01:23:54[Saint]The minimal order for the Compute Module is somewhere in the order of a thousand units.
01:24:26[Saint]And we would need to design and populate a receiver board for it to even be functional.
01:25:10[Saint]But, that could arguably benefit us be allowing us to design a receiver board that had the aforementioned components populated on it.
01:26:12[Saint]And the Compute Module breaks out all of the BCM and VideoCore pins as well which is somewhat of a benefit.
01:27:55[Saint]If we went that route it would be significantly more expensive and complex, and it would entirely eliminate the possibility of allowing Joe Average to build one in his home with off the shelf parts, but it would allow for a much much much nicer end product.
01:31:00[Saint]The Compute Module receiver board could include the hardware buttons, multiple microsd push-pull slots if desired, the mic, the DAC(s? - may as well if we're upping the complexity), the RTC, amplifier, sockets for interchangeable OPAMPs, the 3.5mm and 7.5mm TRRSs, header for the LCD or OLED display, ...
01:32:43[Saint]I could design one. Pick the components and route the receiver board design. But it wouldn't be cheap, and I definitely wouldn't be the one building it unless someone else (or multiple someones) funded it.
01:33:03[Saint]No way I'm dropping several thousand dollars on ideals alone. ;)
01:34:16[Saint]Oh, and I definitely wouldn't call it the Lyre Project.
01:34:37[Saint]As that name seems to be cursed, almost like Nokia.
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02:27:49BiceAnyone know if Rockbox is compatible with the SanDisk Clip Sport? The stable port list specifies Clip, Clip+ and Clip Zip, but not specifically the Clip Sport.
02:28:15BiceThe Sport looks almost identical to the Clip Zip, but I thought I'd ask before I try installing it.
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03:01:32dongsBice: no, it uses a chip with not enough ram to do anything with rockbox
03:02:30[Saint]Who'ya talking to bud?
03:02:51[Saint]missed 'em by a long ways.
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07:13:44duo8rockbox ultility suddenly works fine, font rendering broken though
07:14:16duo8I thought I set qt4 up differently
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09:36:42yuunHey [Saint] was that just a line, or are you really trying to build up such a project?
09:36:54yuunI mean about the rasperry player
09:41:53yuunI miss my rockboxed iPod classic, I used to hate iPods so much, but since I lost it no player has been offering me what I could do with it.
09:43:54yuundid try the DX90 rockboxed and it was ok, but not enough space with 1µsd slot, short battery life (even with a spare), and it started to have a strange bug; would have a cut after 2 - 3 seconds of a new song played.
09:44:56yuunnow, I m considering buying back an iPod classic and modify it for SD cards, but I'm afraid I'd buy a countefeit one, as there isn't an official way to buy them anymore.
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10:10:42duo8you can't easily counterfeit those
10:10:55duo8unless you make it really obvious
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11:59:26NathanVIs there ever much buying and selling of pmps in the rockbox community?
12:01:06gevaertsThere's some such activity on the forums every now and then
12:01:36gevaertsAlso on the mailing list, but that's *really* quiet these days
12:03:03NathanVI wonder what the likelihood is of me getting a response from an iso for a yp-r0
12:03:11NathanVIs there a specific section for that on the forum?
12:03:39NathanVThere doesn't seem to be any sort of off-topic section
12:05:53NathanVin search of
12:06:10gevaertsAh, right. Not an iso9660 filesystem image then :)
12:06:34gevaerts"Rockbox General Discussion" is appropriate
12:06:41NathanVI guess that wasn't the best term to use
12:06:45NathanVon such a website
12:07:00NathanValright, thanks. I'll post and hope.
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13:06:38yuunwell from the latest generation of ipod I ve noticed differences that are strange for refurbished products of same model : the wheel color and material seem to vary a lot.
13:06:52yuunbut maybe I'm just being paranoid
13:26:35yuunanyone here uses the iFlash quad?
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13:34:15AndyP_I've used and IFlash with 4x16GB uSD in a 6th Gen Classic
13:37:29AndyP_Not done a lot with it but it boots the OF and Rockbox quite happily.
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14:50:16yuunI'm interested if it has a nice behaviour with 4x128Gb
14:50:59yuunusing rockbox I guess you see it as many disks
14:51:13yuunlike sd1 sd2 sd3 sd4
14:57:46pamauryyuun: I don't know how this iflash adapter works but my guess is that it appears as one big disk
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15:00:35gevaertsIt *has* to be one big disk
15:00:50gevaertsFor the simple reason that we don't have code to deal with anything else on ipods :)
15:01:18pamauryyeah I was kind of expecting that but wasn't sure. What kind of drive is this ? ATA ?
15:03:59gevaertsUnless it's a first gen classic 160GB one, which is CE-ATA (still ATA I believe, but with a different connector and maybe some other changes)
15:04:32*gevaerts suspects those don't get too many custom adapters built for them
15:07:27pamauryCE-ATA is a weird mix of ATA and SD iirc
15:07:47pamaurylike ATA commands over SD-like bus
15:09:55gevaertsMMC IIRC, but yes
15:10:11pamauryah yes you are right
15:10:14gevaertsI don't know how much of the weirdness is handled by hardware
15:10:34pamaurybut mmc == sd in my head, just slightly more flexible on the bus size
15:11:04*gevaerts still wants to see someone try to get an Ondio work with one of those drives :)
15:11:08gevaertsShould be possible!
15:11:09pamaurysome of it is handled in hardware, because the imx controller has two modes: sd/mmc and ce-ata
15:11:28pamaurythe manual even explains the difference I think
15:12:16pamauryCE-ATA devices can be accessed via SD/MMC interface. In addition to requiring the
15:12:16pamaurySD/MMC interface, Command Completion Signaling (CCS) and CCS Disable is
15:12:16pamauryneeded. Refer to the CE-ATA specification for timing diagrams and more details on
15:12:16DBUGEnqueued KICK pamaury
15:12:16pamaurythese signals. The MMC state machine includes extra states to handle this
15:13:17pamauryit also supports the long-dead MS protocol
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16:00:47pixelmagevaerts: maybe you could build an MMC to drive connector (like a cable with an MMC "plug") and test with that?
16:01:22gevaertsThat'd be the start, yes
16:01:57gevaertsIt won't work as-is though. I'm fairly confident those drives probably don't do plain MMC
16:02:12gevaertsBut I don't really know
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16:03:37pixelmasounds nice. Is there a size limit to our MMC protocol limitation (similar to SD and SDHC)
16:03:51pixelmaerrr... implementation
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16:06:26*gevaerts has no idea :)
16:08:27*pixelma seems to remember something about an advanced MMC protocoll (MMC+ or so?) that was discussed once because there was talk about bigger capacity MMC but then wasn't needed because these never hit the shops
16:08:36pixelmanot sure though
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16:15:55pixelmanot correct
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16:18:36pixelmaMMCplus is already supported
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16:54:51pamauryMMCplus is about speed I think, not about size
16:57:30pamaurypixelma: there is a trick about the size
16:57:53pamaurythe old mmc protocol used byte addresses and reported the size (in byte) in the CSD. So the limit is ~2GB.
16:58:57pamauryBut modern cards to differently: they report the maximum in CSD and the host interpret this as "use block address" and use EXT_CSD to get the real size. If you do that, you can address at least a terabyte
16:59:23pamaurylast time I checked, the implementation of mmc for ondio assumes byte addressing but it can be fixed
16:59:49pixelmawell my 4GB MMC is definitely supported already, bigger cards weren't available IIRC
17:00:08pamauryyeah sorry, 4GB is the limit with byte addressing
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17:03:23pixelmathere was talk about 8GB cards and I believe amiconn wanted to add support for these when they would become available but then they never were (for end users anyway)
17:05:14pamauryif you are interested, you can look at g#1330 where I begun reworking mmc handling, that's when I noticed that the ondio only handles the old mmc format so I didn't dare touching it :)
17:05:16fs-bluebotGerrit review #1330 at : Rework sd/mmc handling by Amaury Pouly
17:18:03pixelmawould be nice to have an MMC > µSDHC card adapter
17:22:20amiconnOndio uses SPI for controlling MMC
17:22:42pixelmajust recently rediscovered my Ondio for listening to music (as my M5 is still awaiting headphone jack repair) and 4GB isn't much for music even if there are only MP3 files
17:23:34amiconnIt could do SD((H|X)C) that way too, but the slot is too thin for standard SD
17:24:21amiconn(the USB bridge uses proper MMC protocol, and is capable of SD as well, but not (H|X)C)
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17:26:15amiconnAn MMC-microSD adapter should be doable, and then the Ondio should be able to use even the largest capacity µSDXC, but for playback/ recording only; not USB
17:27:11amiconnThat's something I''m having on my list for a very long time already, but not at high prio
17:27:51amiconnMostly due to my git aversion, and my gerrit account still being in need for recovery
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17:32:13pixelmathe USB thing wouldn't be a show stopper as you can use an external reader to fill up the microSD card
17:33:25amiconnpamaury: MMC limit with byte addressing is 4GB, not 2. Why SD artificially limits to 2GB is beyond me (same as the artificial 32GB limit for -HC)
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17:34:19amiconnpixelma: exactly. The Ondio should just show a popup message stating that USB is not possible with this card
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17:35:02pamauryamiconn: yeah but 2GB or 4GB is not a big difference. you need proper sector addressing if you want to support much bigger disks
17:35:34pamauryactually I think the MMC spec recommends 2GB max ;)
17:35:57pamaury(for byte addressing)
17:36:03amiconnMMC introduced that with version 4.2 of the protocol iirc (which was never implemented in an actual MMC afaik)
17:36:48amiconnWell I do have a 4GB MMC using byte addressing (pixelma does too)
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17:38:12*pamaury has never seen an MMC card
17:38:23pamauryI have only seen eMMC chips
17:41:15pixelmayou should have had a better look at some DevCons ;)
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18:34:05Saratoga_Huh there are microsd to mmc adapters on Amazon
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18:51:24amiconnAre they actually adapting to MMC (aka thin-SD)?
18:52:16amiconnFullsize MMC and SD are very similar, just MMC is 1.4mm thick while SD s 2.1mm
18:52:39amiconnThe latter does definitely not fit into the Ondio's slot
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23:28:11PhotoJim<- new... contemplating installing Rockbox on a Sansa Clip+ to see what the fuss is about
23:44:16[Saint]There's a fuss?
23:44:20[Saint]No one told us about it.
23:44:34*[Saint] isn't sure he likes that idea at all
23:45:05[Saint]If we get popular, I might have to find something even more esoteric to work on.
23:47:52[Saint]PhotoJim: the long and the short of it, at the heart of it all, is that we turn SanDisk Sansa Happy Meal toy fashion crap in to something that is actually genuinely useful and that makes use of the hardware supplied.
23:48:53[Saint]For audio reproduction and capture, we do markedly better than the original firmware. Then there's various other things that you may or may not care about, like plugins and viewer extensions.
23:49:10[Saint]Many moons ago that mattered a hell of a lot more than it does now.
23:50:04[Saint]These days every man and their dog has a smartphone that is infinitely more capable in terms of the plugins that Rockbox offers, but nowhere near as capable as Rockbox in terms of audio playback and capture.
23:51:21PhotoJim[Saint]: sounds well worthwhile. and I was primarily concerned with using it for podcasts, but since I have a spare one (one got lost for 2 years in my car :) but got found a couple of months ago), I could experiment with one for music, too. and if 64 GB Micro-SDHC cards work with Rockbox on this player (which is my understanding) I can fit a good chunk of music on a card.
23:51:41[Saint]These days with most of the plugins I would think that Joe Everyday would go "Hey, wow - that's neat, this exists" and then pretty much promptly forget about them because the controls are klunky at best and as mentioned above you're probably carrying around a hardware device that is infinitely more capable.
23:51:43PhotoJimmight be a good chance to transcode to OGG Vorbis to see if it sounds better to my ear than MP3. (Have FLAC on the server)
23:51:56PhotoJimheh, that's probably true.
23:52:36[Saint]Also - yes. It is worth noting that any time you see "Works with up to *GB" on vendor packaging or specifications that it either comes down to shortsightedness or ignorance.
23:52:50[Saint]We'll address up to the full sd specification of 2TB.
23:53:26[Saint]The vendors generally will list the largest sd format available for retail sale at the time of the product launch.
23:53:35PhotoJimoh, very good. I have a 128 GB card I haven't deployed yet. if that would work that would make this an awesome FLAC device.
23:53:40[Saint]Perhaps in an effort to get users to stop asking that question.
23:53:42PhotoJimI often try larger.
23:55:19[Saint]It seems that only recently we have hit the other end of the scale in smartphones where vendors irrelevantly list that their devices support up to 2TB (full specification) sd media when we'll literally never see densities like that in that form factor.
23:55:47PhotoJimyes, that's possible.
23:55:53[Saint]256GB is _reaaaaaally_ pushing the limits of that form factor.
23:56:00[Saint]2TB just plain ain't happening.
23:56:00PhotoJim128 GB Micro-SD impresses me enough.
23:56:17PhotoJimI have a 32 MB (yes MB) CF card kicking around.
23:56:37PhotoJimI do my camera's firmware updates with it (30 MB), because it amuses me :)
23:56:48[Saint]You can get 256GB in retail commercial sale now, and around 6mo ago we had 200GB available.
23:56:56[Saint]But you'll pay an arm and a leg for them.
23:57:32PhotoJimthis 128 wasn't bad.
23:57:36PhotoJimbut that's interesting.
23:57:41[Saint]And they sacrifice some degree of reliability for the sake of bulk contiguous write throughput.
23:58:37PhotoJimI'm sure.
23:58:42[Saint]But in Rockbox access speed or contiguous or random read/write aren't particularly important at all.
23:58:52PhotoJimit would be fun to take modern Micro-SD cards back to about 1984.
23:59:01PhotoJimI used to think 170 kB on a 5.25" floppy was not bad.

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