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#rockbox log for 2016-07-30

00:01:00*[Saint] hopes he can grab PhotoJim before the actual installation process to say
00:01:00[Saint]"Don't use the release builds, use the development builds"
00:01:21[Saint]I mean, if you already did, updating isn't difficult.
00:01:37[Saint]But I assure you you want the development build over the release.
00:01:49PhotoJimyes, that's a later-today thing
00:01:58[Saint]Aha. Cool.
00:02:02PhotoJimand I'll take your advice
00:02:20PhotoJimI'll upgrade one, see if I like it. if so I'll do the other.
00:02:38PhotoJimI have a little Chinese MP3 player too that I got because it does Bluetooth (occasionally handy) but who knows what hardware it runs.
00:03:11[Saint]It's not much a question of like or dislike, there's 3.5~4 years worth of bug fixes and enhancements and optimizations that the development build brings with it.
00:03:29[Saint]Nothing user-facing is drastically different.
00:03:39[Saint]But the backend is markedly so.
00:04:28PhotoJimsounds like you've convinced me.
00:04:36PhotoJimif it is stable and works well, I'm good with development versions.
00:05:29[Saint]Yes. For the supported targets it is quite stable. With the aforementioned bugfixes and enhancements it is quite possibly arguably more so than the release.
00:05:51PhotoJimI'm glad you mentioned it. Thanks.
00:07:09[Saint]We actually had this discussion with another user yesterday and a developer mentioned a point I didn't really consider, in that the releases are useful for the very very old and rather limited supported targets where in order to go forward we had to keep making sacrifices in order for the binary to be small enough to actually fit on the device.
00:07:33[Saint]For the modern supported devices you absolutely want to the development builds though.
00:07:49PhotoJimgoodness, that's quite the user manual.
00:08:02PhotoJimright, that makes sense.
00:08:03[Saint]We're pretty proud of it. Indeed.
00:08:07PhotoJimbut the Sansas are modern enough for this purpose.
00:08:17[Saint]Indeed they are.
00:08:32PhotoJimI have a duplexing colour printer here. I'm going to print this.
00:08:34PhotoJimI like printed manuals.
00:08:57PhotoJimthen I can pore through it as I get things running tonight.
00:09:38xorly[Saint]: what is considered as "modern" device?
00:09:52[Saint]Good for you! That's awesome. I was going to suggest this, but it is always a gamble.
00:10:19[Saint]Some people take the idea that they should want to read our manual as an offense.
00:10:44[Saint]Rockbox isn't exactly....intuitive.
00:10:54PhotoJimI like manuals.
00:11:03PhotoJimI like intuitive stuff but I read the manual too.
00:11:10PhotoJimand manuals help you find the non-obvious stuff.
00:11:38[Saint]I often talk to people who have been using Rockbox for years, and due to lack of reading the manual they come in here and talk to me, or someone else, and then end up finding out that they have failed to discover a bunch of features they were interested in.
00:11:55[Saint]One guy I talked to fairly recently went 4 years without knowing we had a context menu.
00:12:37[Saint]It's great when you get feature requests that already exist.
00:12:58[Saint]"Rockbox should do...It would be great if...This could be..."
00:13:06[Saint]<It already is!>
00:13:50PhotoJimThat must be fun, responding to those requests.
00:13:56PhotoJim(annoying. but fun. :) )
00:15:47[Saint]xorly: in that context we would be speaking about the reaaaaaaaally old devices that most of you guys probably don't own anyway. Archos Jukebox|Recorder|Ondio, Toshiba Gigabeat, Cowon iAudio X*|M*, etc.
00:16:06[Saint]The literal vintage players.
00:17:43xorlyI get it, but I am thinking about buying some Rockbox supported player. Some actively developed/supported. That's the reason why I am adking...
00:18:02[Saint]iPod Classic\6g
00:18:44[Saint]It can be difficult to find, but if there are pawn shops or second hand electronics stores in your locale - try there first.
00:19:09[Saint]Resellers on the Internet know exactly what they have and how much demand it is is.
00:19:20[Saint]Ma & Pa pawn brokers...notsomuch.
00:19:21***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:20:04[Saint]The iPod Classic is about the best bang for your buck available in HDD based players these days. It is a bit of a machine of death, quite absurdly overpowered.
00:20:25[Saint](and it can be converted into a solid state player with relative ease)
00:20:32xorlyThanks for info! :)
00:20:41[Saint]Barring that the obvious choice is the Sansas.
00:21:03[Saint]Which are nice players but reminiscent of a McDonalds Happy Meal toy.
00:21:33[Saint]They are cheaply made, and they feel exactly that way. Nice hardware in a sub-par package.
00:22:01[Saint]If looks or engineering aren't important factors, then the Sansas are definitely a valid consideration.
00:22:05PhotoJimThe Clip+ isn't bad. I don't think it feels too cheap.
00:22:09PhotoJimI haven't used more modern Sansas though.
00:22:59[Saint]I don't think I've ever seen one with the display mounted in the center of the faceplate, or one with uniform molding around the edges where the case halves meet.
00:23:09[Saint]Not saying they don't exist, I just haven't seen one.
00:23:17 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
00:23:41[Saint]They're nice players, and I have a few myself, but I use them as what I basically consider to be a "disposable DAP".
00:23:57[Saint]I use them at the gym, or if I'm going to be near water, or mountain biking, etc.
00:24:21PhotoJimthe one rattled around the bowels of my car - in Saskatchewan, so it was seeing temperatures from -40 C to (in the car) probably 60 C - and it still works. I give it kudos!
00:24:22[Saint]I take them all the places I wouldn't dare take my precious solid state converted iPods.
00:24:31PhotoJimI figure it was there for 26 months.
00:24:38[Saint]Ha! Nice. :)
00:25:03[Saint]Yes. They definitely can be rather robust.
00:25:06PhotoJimI hunted for it for two hours.
00:25:15[Saint]Especially if you're prone to dropping things as I am.
00:25:16PhotoJimbut a detailer found it when I got the car cleaned up for a long driving holiday :)
00:25:25PhotoJimI'm not a dropper, but stuff can happen.
00:27:42PhotoJimI wonder what generation my iPod Classic is.
00:27:47PhotoJimit needs a new battery, but that can be done.
00:29:56[Saint]Going on statistics alone, the likelihood of it being an iPod 4G/Color or iPod 5G|5.5G/Video is immense.
00:30:10 Quit paulk-collins (Quit: Leaving)
00:30:33[Saint]Both make very decent targets and can be converted to high capacity platter HDD or solid state.
00:30:40gevaertsIt's either one of those *or* an ipod classic
00:30:47gevaertsCan't be both :)
00:31:03[Saint]Yeah, god damn I hate that naming scheme.
00:31:22[Saint]People conflate 'iPod Classic" and "classic iPods" all the time.
00:31:28[Saint]Apple did themselves no favors here.
00:31:54gevaertsI suspect those people to also mix up their first and last name, and probably left and right :)
00:32:19PhotoJimsaratoga: it was marketed as a classic. I bought it new in ... 2006? maybe '07.
00:32:45PhotoJim80 GB hard disk, colour display.
00:32:58PhotoJimI'll look at it tonight.
00:33:14[Saint]plastic front or metalic alloy front?
00:33:37gevaertsvideo or classic then. wikipedia says the classic was released in 2007
00:34:04[Saint]yeah. that's why I asked about the front of the case.'it's right on the edge of still being able to be a Video.
00:34:06PhotoJimhmm, it's a black front. but I forget if it's plastic or alloy. I think alloy.
00:34:13gevaertsI'd ask if it's thin or thick, but if you're not familiar with the things that's hard to say
00:34:17[Saint]Classic then.
00:34:19PhotoJimLooks like 6th gen.
00:34:31[Saint]You should definitely consider Rockboxing it.
00:34:37gevaerts[Saint]: isn't the classic front a bit non-flat as well?
00:34:39PhotoJimit's fairly thin, compared to my wife's iPod Photo.
00:34:40[Saint]It'll take a steaming shit all over the Sansas.
00:34:43PhotoJimbut not thin particularly.
00:35:05[Saint]gevaerts: yeah, kinda beveled off/rounded.
00:35:13*gevaerts nods
00:35:21[Saint]The HDDs in them like to commit suicide, though.
00:35:21gevaertsThought so. The video is entirely flat
00:35:25PhotoJimwell, one device at a time. but if I like Roxkbox on a Sansa, I think I should put it on my iPod.
00:35:42[Saint]The disks themselves are actually fine.
00:35:50PhotoJimthe drive on mine is still good. but upgrading it to an SSD of some sort is appealing. it'd be quieter and it'd have better battery life.
00:35:51[Saint]The controller firmware is batshit crazy, though.
00:36:01[Saint]They like to smash the heads against the platter for fun.
00:36:14PhotoJimYep, mine has Cover Flow. so mine's 6th gen.
00:36:20PhotoJimoh, that's not good.
00:36:35gevaertsActually, is that for *all* classics, or just the early ones?
00:37:01gevaertsIf this one is 2007 it's an early one, but I think it's interesting to know in general
00:37:01[Saint]AFAIK it's just the 80GB non-CEATA ones.
00:37:50gevaertsOh well, at least disks (or equivalent) for those aren't impossible to find I guess
00:37:57gevaertsNot necessarily cheap, but they exist
00:38:01[Saint]The CEATA ones we had a different problem that was eventually fixed where we weren't giving it enough time to do so and weren't powering it down correctly.
00:38:14[Saint]So a hard poweroff make a really sickening noise.
00:38:53[Saint]That's been fixed for quite a while though.
00:39:48[Saint]If you're going to add a new battery to it, myself personally, I would consider converting it to solid state when you've got it open anyway.
00:39:51gevaertsDid Apple ever use an 80GB disk that wasn't dodgy in some way? :)
00:40:04[Saint]I don't believe so. No.
00:40:20gevaertsI mean, the 80GB video has a disk that can't handle odd sector IO
00:40:28PhotoJimRockbox is "unusable" on iPod Classic (6G), but porting has begun. is that correct?
00:40:34[Saint]Well, the Video disks were technically fine as well, it just had that weird secotr size.
00:40:43[Saint]PhotoJim: no.
00:40:52gevaertsWell, it's not *incorrect*
00:41:06[Saint]PhotoJim: "unusable", "stable", and "unstable" mean different things to us than they do to Joe User.
00:41:09gevaertsThat "unusual" is a technical term though, and doesn't mean the same as it means anywhere else
00:41:22gevaertsWe like to confuse people :)
00:41:27PhotoJimHeh. evidently.
00:41:45[Saint]In this context it means "we don't officially have a bootloader or installation path for it yet"
00:41:50gevaertsAnyway, I suspect that status is outdated now, with the recentish bootloader work
00:41:51PhotoJimLooks like no dual-booting, plus manual installation.
00:41:55PhotoJimso that's not too awful.
00:42:01PhotoJimahh, that'd be convenient too.
00:42:03[Saint]There is dualboot. And there is guided installation.
00:42:18[Saint]Just not for public release.
00:42:27PhotoJimhence your recommendation for the dev version.
00:42:36gevaertsWell, apart from anything we do being public of course :)
00:42:48[Saint]Well, no. The dev version is public release.
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00:43:04gevaertsThat's not actually a recommendation, really. There is no "numbered" release for the classic
00:43:12gevaertsSo you have no choice
00:43:13[Saint]When I say "not for public release" in this context it means that unless you know someone like me, and now you do, you'd need to compile it yourself.
00:43:42[Saint]When or if the time comes I would be happy to guide you through the installation, though.
00:43:55PhotoJimThanks. I may take you up on that.
00:44:00PhotoJimMuch appreciated.
00:44:06[Saint]There's no risk involved.
00:44:19PhotoJimI tend to do this stuff under Linux. Looks like that isn't an issue.
00:44:26[Saint]We like to say the recommended way to brick an iPod is with a hammer, vigorously, and with gusto.
00:44:47[Saint]It certainly won't happen from userspace with Rockbox code.
00:46:06PhotoJimthat's one thing I like about the Sansas. it's really easy to load content onto them from Linux.
00:46:14PhotoJimmaybe it is now with iDevices too but I've never tried.
00:46:25[Saint]They're pretty much indestructible. The amount of hardware that can be completely non-functional, or totally missing, and still allow for a successful installation on the iPods is pretty obscene.
00:46:36[Saint]You don't need a HDD or a display, for instance.
00:46:54[Saint]I mean, you will in order to use the thing...but, hey.
00:47:24PhotoJimBut hey :)
00:47:51PhotoJimI'm looking forward to this experiment. (On the Sansa.)
00:47:52gevaertsIf you can the install from linux, you'll probably have a much easier time than those who try on windows or mac
00:47:58[Saint]In the Linux sphere with iDevices we've had libgpod available for quite a long time. But this isn;t something I would expect Joe User to stumble upon.
00:48:07gevaerts(for the ipod. For sansas it doesn't really matter much)
00:48:28[Saint]Windows is fine. Mac should be fine, but isn;t extensively tested.
00:48:50[Saint]The guided install in Rockbox Utility can do everything for us now except for place the device in DFU mode.
00:48:59gevaertsAh, right
00:49:15*gevaerts must somehow have missed that last bit of news
00:49:22[Saint]A year ago I would definitely agree.
00:49:46gevaertsIf it goes wrong in some way you'll probably still be happier on linux though :)
00:49:49[Saint]We've got a patch set sitting in gerrit that gives the Classic support for a full guided install in RbUtil.
00:50:53[Saint]And if it goes wrong (it almost certainly won't), while you /can/ restore the iPod manually in Linux it isn;t nearly as easy with the Classic/6G as it is with any of the other iPods.
00:51:02[Saint]Doable, yes. But not user friendly.
00:51:18[Saint]The canonical method would be "Force DFU, point iTunes at it"
00:51:32gevaertsAh yes, I forget that that thing exists :)
00:51:59PhotoJimI dual boot into Win10, so I wouldn't be high and dry.
00:52:03[Saint]iTunes automagically goes "Oh, shit, an iPod in DFU mode huh? want I should restore that, buddy?"
00:52:10PhotoJimI just rarely go there. Half the time I go there just to get patches. :)
00:53:09[Saint]If you do intend to dual-boot with iOS and Rockbox, it makes more sense (in my opinion) to manage the library on the device using the iOS side of things.
00:53:29[Saint]As we can access media added under iOS, but iOS can't access media added under Rockbox.
00:53:59PhotoJimMakes sense.
00:54:07[Saint]But this can be done in a Linux environment with pretty much any major modern media player, or anything that can support the libgpod backend.
00:54:12PhotoJimif I like Rockbox then single-boot mode might be fine with me. but I'll continue to manage it with iTunes for now.
00:56:39PhotoJimHometime. I'll check in tonight when I'm ready to do the Sansa Clip+ upgrade.
00:56:43PhotoJimThanks for the chat, and for the advice.
00:57:01PhotoJim(I'll stay in channel as a lurker...)
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03:25:18PhotoJimthere, Rockbox is on my Sansa Clip+ and it works
03:25:21PhotoJimand I have some learning to do
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11:56:24AndyP_Following on from yesterday, my iFlash Quad is seen as 1 x 64GB drive in the OF and Rockbox on a 6G Classic. Dual boots happily.
11:57:40AndyP_Also have a 6G with an iFlash CF fitted with a 32GB CF that also dual boots, as does another 6G with a 32GB SD card in a SD-CF adapter in another iFlash.
12:01:59AndyP_Just waiting for a 128GB mSATA to try in another 6G with an iFlash-Sata. The 32GB mSATA I have takes too much power to startup. Will post when I try it.
12:03:50AndyP_I'm currently trying to rebuild a 30GB 5G Video with another iFlash Quad, again with 4 x 16GB uSD. Need to get the 30pin connector changed at work first.
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12:06:01[Saint]Yeah man. I love those iFlash Quad boards.
12:06:42[Saint]Much more reliable than gambling on an SSD and whether or not Rockbox or the OF will have a fir with it.
12:06:51[Saint](I've been lucky with mine so far)
12:07:23[Saint]I absolutely love my solid state iPod conversions. I have quite a few now.
12:07:29[Saint]Various generations.
12:09:42[Saint]s/fir/fit/ 'have a fit with it'.
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12:13:02AndyP_I still have a couple of HDD based ipods but most are converted, even two of the mini's are now CF as is a 4G photo.
12:15:57AndyP_Time to go, Bo'ness Steam Railway Day Out With Thomas calling....
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14:06:08treakiis the snasa clip zip the same as the sansa clip zip sport?
14:06:19treakior is this one not rockbox compatible?
14:12:45pamaurytreaki: no
14:12:54pamaurythe zip sport is not supported by rockbox
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14:20:21treakihow bad...
14:20:25treakithanks for the info
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14:23:29treakimaybe you could write that on the page because of possible missunderstanding do to simillar names...
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15:09:32pamaurytreaki: we get that question often but we don't choose the player name, tell that to sandisk ;)
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18:33:58 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
18:52:00 Quit krabador (Quit: Leaving)
18:53:19 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador)
18:58:00 Quit krabador (Client Quit)
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19:09:32 Quit smoke_fumus (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium
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20:10:45 Quit krnlyng (Quit: krnlyng)
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20:19:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:32:27 Quit krabador (Remote host closed the connection)
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21:21:53 Quit nlogex (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
21:24:50 Join bp0 [0] (~bp@unaffiliated/bp0)
22:19:51***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:22:10 Quit duo8 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
22:25:00 Join Rower [0] (
23:36:54 Join JdGordon [0] (
23:36:54 Quit JdGordon (Changing host)
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23:39:15 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
23:40:44 Quit The_Prospector|2 (Quit: when in doubt, kernel panic)
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23:58:09 Quit paulk-collins (Quit: Leaving)

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