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#rockbox log for 2016-11-17

00:14:51 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
00:16:56 Quit ender` (Quit: Anyone who thinks people lack originality should watch them folding maps.)
00:53:20***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:58:15TorCBilgus: I can see that. Then again, the merits of boosting CPU vary with settings. I tend to run a 10s LCD timeout, so I expect the temporary boost would be inconsequential next to the backlight draw over that time.
01:00:00TorCAlso, if you haven't done so, consider deactivating Sel BL when plugged in. I probably run plugged into wall and external speakers at least half the time. Usually at those times if I want to see the display I want it to show up immediately.
01:01:02Bilgusthat shouldn't happen unless you have a timeout set on your backlight while plugged
01:01:20TorCFun fact: The BL delay hides the effect of the screen not being updated when the BL is off. Original behaviour is that when BL (and screen) comes on, the display still shows the old screen for a fraction of a second.
01:01:42TorCCurrently I have a 45s timeout when plugged in.
01:02:42Bilguswell yeah it gives the screen one more second to update
01:03:35BilgusI'm doubtful boosting the CPU will help and have already discarded the changes I tried out today since it was little benefit and a whole lot of extra code
01:03:49Bilgusbut I did fix the backlight timeout issue you spoke of
01:04:36TorCAh, well. Glad you found the one issue. That is annoying, since there is otherwise a delay to get the display to come back when it goes off prematurely.
01:05:12Bilgusabout the only other thing I can think of is to make every context able to be polled for its State and that would knock out some overhead
01:06:52Bilgusright now you have to wait for the button to be added to the queue and then wait for get_action to call get_action_worker then look throught the list of contexts till it finds a match where as the regular backlight code gets a button press sends BACKLIGHT_ON dumps it in a dedicated queue and turns on the BL
01:08:39Bilguskinda hard to compete with the difference if I had context data available at the button stage though I could look them up much earlier in the process and maybe have a chance but I'll have to have a look at the main_menu code maybe I can store what context it has selected last or something
01:09:35TorCAh... Now I see more clearly where the delay comes from.
01:11:42TorCI'd still wonder about setting Sel BL to only operate on internal battery. I also have an external battery I occasionally charge from, and while it is usually oversized, its capacity isn't infinite.
01:13:39Bilgusalong with the added (strictly superficial) constraint of not being able to touch APPS code from FIRMWARE code it makes it pretty much untenable except to do the lookup within the button code I suppose
01:14:13BilgusI'm not sure how you would be able to tell if you were on internal battery or external battery?
01:16:15Bilgusif you mean only when not charging it wouldn't be hard to make that change but i'm more focused on delay issue atm that is just menu stuff
01:18:53TorCI was inclined to simply make the plugged in/on battery distinction, which is already made at some level in the player. I don't see how the player can tell the difference between a wall charger and external battery, so I wouldn't ask you do divine the impossible in your code :P
01:21:06BilgusHere is the fixed SANSA CLIP ZIP firmware
01:21:48BilgusI'm going to explore ways to get the context earlier and store the button maps
01:23:56TorCI'm installing it now.
01:29:56TorCI can't claim experience in this kind of coding, but it seems the current context ought to already exist as a variable somewhere. The player needs to know what to bring up when activated and what each key does so it can behave correctly when "first keypress enables backlight" is disabled (as I keep it).
01:30:40TorCOn WPS, a click down does nothing, which makes it a useful key to turn on the BL without doing anything anyway.
01:31:25TorCBTW, initial testing found no errant BL turn off behaviour.
01:31:39TorCGood work there. Thanks.
01:32:08Bilgusnope it doesn't have the context stored you only get it when the wps/recording/ FM screen calls Get_action(context, timeout)
01:33:11TorCAh, well. "They" don't like to make things easy, do they? :P
01:34:25Bilgushalf way down is the WPS apps/gui/skin_engine/skin_display.c and at the bottom the radio
01:35:22Bilgusthose are all hardcoded from the function num { CONTEXT_STD = 0, /* These CONTEXT_ values were here before me, there values may have significance, so dont touch! */ CONTEXT_WPS = 1, CONTEXT_TREE = 2, CONTEXT_RECORD = 3, CONTEXT_MAINMENU = 4, /* uses CONTEXT_TREE and ACTION_TREE_* */ CONTEXT_ID3DB = 5, /* Add new contexts here, no need to explicitly define a value for them */ CONTEXT_LIST,
01:35:35Bilgusthey just correspond to numbers
01:36:22Bilgusbut its not anything about making it hard it is 1. most efficient and 2. selective backlighting was never planned on
01:37:44Bilgusanyway I'll bbl gonna go get dinner
01:38:41__builtinBilgus: what have you been working on?
01:39:38Bilgus ,
01:39:53TorCI know it wasn't to make it hard. I was joking, as I tried to make clear. Text doesn't always transmit tone accurately.
01:41:21BilgusI'll probably separate selective softlock from selective backlight and commit it separately since it is nearly perfect
02:04:13__builtinBilgus: nice
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03:33:57Bilgus1I found a function that I think will get me the current context ahead of get_action .−−>.enum current_activity get_current_activity(void)
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15:11:54guest12345what are the hardware and system requirements for rockbox?
15:12:19guest12345does it use an OS or does it run mare metal?
15:13:05guest12345in what ballpark is the required CPU power and memory?
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15:23:48guest12345also on a more practical side the Sansa Clip+ has favorable reviews and is marked as in-production on the wiki but it seems that information is outdated. The Clip+ model is no longer easily available and the supposed successor blackboxwise is Clip Jam. Any idea what's inside that one and if there is good chance running rockbox on it?
15:25:17[Saint]It is a full replacement OS on all but a very small subset of devices
15:25:44[Saint]And, regarding the Clip Jam, yes, and no, it never will. Ever.
15:26:16[Saint]Same with the Sport.
15:26:25lebelliumpamaury: do you think you still get something to try out this week?
15:29:51guest12345what's the problem with the new hardware?
15:30:58[Saint]Not even close to enough resources.
15:31:54guest12345and what is enough resources?
15:34:12[Saint]2MB RAM is considered a bare minimum I believe. But you're looking at it wrong I suppose. It isnt like you have any other options than the supported devices.
15:34:43[Saint]Rockbox is built as a unique binary for each supported device
15:35:11[Saint]New ports are often hundreds of man hours work.
15:36:01[Saint]And if you want Rockbox on $DEVICE, you're expected to be the one to facilitate that.
15:40:25guest12345I am looking for something to run on nRF51822 or nRF52832 or something like that
15:41:30[Saint]Rockbox has a list of supported devices clearly listed on the main page.
15:41:55[Saint]Anything not listed there you're either doing yourself or it plain isnt happening.
15:42:01[Saint]Possibly both.
15:42:34guest12345that's not a device. those are ARM Cortex M based microcontrollers with bluetooth radio
15:42:36[Saint]It is not a multipurpose OS. It is a targeted OS.
15:42:47[Saint]And, I'm aware.
15:43:12[Saint]It doesn't change the statement.
15:44:04guest12345if 2MB is bare minimum then it's not going to work.
15:46:07guest12345Either I need an extra processor to run the controlling software and use the nRF as peripherial or need something much smaller. So much for reusing something with audio codecs and event loop already integrated in one piece
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16:15:44wopamaury: It seems radio driver in sony uses standard radio v4l2 interface
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16:42:51guest12345hm, nRF52832 has a FPU but still only 64k ram
16:43:27guest12345what is sane interface for connecting audio codec on uderpowered SoC?
16:43:51worockbox is almost 100% fixed point so FPU doesn't help much
16:44:21woguest12345: what you mean? Usually codecs are connected by i2s
16:44:38guest12345yes, I am aware of FPU being superfluous with all those fine fixed-point codecs
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16:45:30guest12345I vaguely recall some spi and/or i2c audio drivers in linux
16:46:13guest12345nRF52832 has i2s but nRF51822 has only i2c and spi
16:46:46guest12345also even with soc that has i2s not all kits make it available
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16:53:27Saratogaguest12345: if you want audio decoding it might make more sense to start with an audio soc and then add Bluetooth
16:53:43***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:54:02SaratogaRather than try to add audio to a device without enough memory or IO
16:57:20[Saint]Well put.
16:57:31[Saint]We're literally spoiled for choice.
16:57:55[Saint]We don't need to grab the shoehorn and jerryrig these things.
16:58:16[Saint]Its a couple of bucks of silicon.
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17:08:21guest12345the reason to use nRF5x would be to try codecs other than the default sbc for BT audio
17:08:41woand btw you can easily create i2s with spi block + a tiny bit of software
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17:09:04guest12345the usefulness of different codecs that is questionable, no doubt
17:10:33guest12345wo: that sounds useful because i2s is the only extra hardware feature nRF51822 lacks besides cpu power
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17:14:15woguest12345: you'd need one free gpio though for channel signaling
17:15:13woor you can add some ttls to generate channel signaling based purely on clk
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17:23:13[Saint]Hmmm...I think I see now. Did the 'ds' falls off your 'wo'?
17:23:36[Saint]Or is this some odd coincidence?
17:25:49wo[Saint]: 'ds' striped
17:26:47wo'dz' to be precise
17:27:25guest12345there is more than enough of gpio on either nRF
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17:27:38[Saint]We really are living in the future. wodz (the s was a typo, sorry) is running in RAID.
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18:09:34guest12345regarding the couple of bucks worth of silicone ... there are chips like CSR8630 which do full BT audio solution in hardware
18:11:07guest12345and they probably work well enough that if I get one I will never take out the programmable chip an try to do something with it
18:12:39[Saint]Is this a bad thing?
18:12:49guest12345the other thing is that ESP-3212 has 520kb ram so it looks like more likely target for development than the nRF chips
18:13:27guest12345it depends
18:14:06guest12345the blackbox manufacturers try to beat each other by supporting more codecs
18:14:34guest12345but all you want is one decent codec and be done with it
18:15:11guest12345sbc is good enough to get some sound across, sure
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18:16:58guest12345I was wondering if something like celt could give better results
18:17:22guest12345and for what definition of better
18:18:05[Saint]All BT audio is shit, really.
18:18:48guest12345if you are forced to encode with shitty codec 95% of the time no wonder
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18:58:59saratogai think if you want better than SBC that is what APTX is for
18:59:09saratogabut at these bitrates, most subband codecs should do very well
19:00:23saratoganot sure CELT really makes sense, the advantage of subband is that you can basically just use some ASIC block to do a subband decomposition and then all you have to do in software is basic quantization and huffman coding
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19:28:16guest12345well, aptx is commercial so I need commercial blackbox for *both* ends which is not going to happen
19:29:43guest12345also I don't think I have an ASIC block for subband decomposition at my disposal
19:30:31guest12345which is of course amendable by changing the hardware
19:33:21guest12345CELT authors boast in some presentation how the lite version of the codec is undemanding of CPU resources and how it degrades gracefully on lower bitrates compared to some other codec
19:33:53guest12345which does not mean there is no better codec for the job
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19:35:07guest12345Especially given AC3 or what codec passthrough is a thing in PC audio drivers you could avoid recoding if your audio happens to be compatible
19:35:42guest12345but it saves processing power only on the PC where you need it least
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19:54:01[Saint]MUST you use a wireless transfer?
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19:55:49saratogawhy not just buy something that uses APTX and use that?
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21:11:18lebelliumpamaury: not on your list but might the NWZ-M504 be linux-based too?
21:11:52lebelliumI assume the B-series isn't. But the M500 is more high-end
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21:27:45pamauryit's not on sony open source website so I assume not
21:27:55pamaurygive the form factor and the screen, it seems very unlikely
21:28:47lebelliumonly color-display devices run linux?
21:34:16guest12345saratoga: I can buy something that uses aptx but I cannot reliably (or at all) get aptx on the other side
21:34:38guest12345so the aptx part is useless either way
21:35:32guest12345on the other hand, if I get something where the codec can be programmed I can set up both sides to use any opensource codec of my choice
21:39:24guest12345[Saint]: I am quite well set up for wired transfer. Unfortunately, it's impractical at times. So for those occasions I want wireless. I tried off-the shelf FM analog headset which was comfortable and sounded terrible and a BT headset which sounds passable and is not very comfortable.
21:41:24guest12345I find lack of choice in wireless headsets in general so I am looking for modular solution that can turn wired headset or speakers into wireless when needed and gives me all the choice of wired equipment. The choice of blackboxes for this purpose is not very good either.
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21:42:51guest12345so building my own sounds like a fun project that might give something usable not easily obtained otherwise
21:44:27pamaurylebellium: I'm not a 100% sure but given the hardware in the linux based player, it wouldn't fit in a small device, and it makes no sense to have such a powerful cpu in such a small device I think. But Sony open source page remains the reference anyway
21:44:44pamauryI would say try to put te M500 in recovery mode and see what the USB ID is
21:46:59lebelliumI don't have it
21:47:17lebelliumand won't buy it if porting Rockbox to it is not possible
21:48:04lebelliumbut I like those kinds of USB-key players like Samsung U series and Sony B series
21:48:51lebelliumit's a pity we don't have any of them supported
21:49:25pamauryno one seems to buy them...
21:50:03lebelliumIf Samsung released 7 Models from U1 to U7 and Sony even more, it's probably cause these are the bestseller
21:50:31lebelliumI'm sure many people buy them, but those people are not around :P
21:51:43pamaurythe problem with those players is that they tend to use super underpowered cpus with low memory
21:53:58lebelliumYP-U5 and U6 use a Sigmatel STMP3770 like the Creative you own
21:54:06lebelliumSony B-series I don't know
21:54:12pamauryand this one only as 512 KB of RAM
21:54:28pamaurythe STMP3770 is quite unlike the other STMP37xx
21:54:58lebellium512 KB instead of 2 MB required?
21:55:22lebelliumah yes, you actually only completed the port for the 3780 devices
21:56:00pamaurywe have a port for the STMP3700 (ie STMP3700/3710/3730) and STMP3780
21:56:12pamaurybut with only 512KB, it's hopeless for the STMP3770
21:56:57pamaurymaybe 1MB could be enoug but that remains to be seen
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22:00:45lebelliumwhen do you think you get something to try out on my A850?
22:05:18pamaurythis week-end, I have been very busy this week, more than I expected
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22:19:01[Saint]guest12345: Have you considered using Chromecast Audio?
22:19:21[Saint]Seems like a very obvious solution to me, and fits the modular requirement.
22:19:59[Saint]Going by the solutions you have proposed thus far, I believe it would also fit the requirement of form factor, even though you haven't directly set one.
22:21:34[Saint]One benefit with Chromecast Audio would be very widespread off-the-shelf compatibility with existing solutions. Almost anything that can beam WiFi is suitable for output, and anything that has a 3.5mm stereo TRRS jack are eligible for input.
22:24:56 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.0/20161104212021])
22:33:36guest12345 for the send part
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22:34:01guest12345for the receive part there is only 1 device which does not include a battery afaict
22:34:26guest12345so it's powerbank + the chromecast audio device
22:35:18guest12345also the protocol is not well defined
22:35:39guest12345what the 'search for chromecast devices' entails?
22:37:34guest12345are the devices paired afterwards in some way or do you connect any random transmitter to any random receiver at any time?
22:38:19guest12345how does the transmitter actually connect to the receiver with WiFi when it also uses WiFi for its own connectivity?
22:38:45guest12345do you need a WiFi network into which both devices are connected?
22:39:31guest12345if so, is WPA enterprise supported? is authentication using random web forms supported?
22:40:54guest12345[Saint]: I guess chromecast does not seem like that great idea after all
22:43:54guest12345but did not know such thing existed. kind of nice gadget until you try to think about usability
22:44:33[Saint]The questions you're asking are all very clearly answered in Google's own documentation.
22:45:48[Saint]I believe it is the most suitable, and cheapest, off-the-shelf solution that does what you want it to do (at least in the most part if you're a little liberal with the requirements).
22:46:27[Saint]And it has the benefit of not using BT(LE) and can do straight passthrough without transcode.
22:47:55guest12345From the documentation it shows you connect both the source device and the sink to common WiFi network
22:49:01scorche|shi think we have gotten a bit offtopic...
22:49:20guest12345the documentation does not specify what network is supported so I would expect WPA PSK only. Not WPA enterprise, not random web form
22:49:34[Saint]We have indeed. To be honest it was offtopic as soon as we established the silicon desired wouldn;t ever run Rockbox.
22:49:55[Saint]It does WPA-Enterprise.
22:50:17guest12345So to connect you either need an extra device (AP) or use your WiFi for SW hotspot and not own connectivity
22:53:10[Saint]In all fairness, who doesn't have wifi deployed? The solution you proposed initially sure as shit didn't sound portable. At least not portable in a practical sense.
22:53:50***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:54:16[Saint]Or, even if we say it is portable, who doesn't have a hotspot capable smartphone?
22:54:27__builtinwould writing a software bitmap antialiasing filter for rockbox be a good idea?
22:54:57__builtinmainly, would any target be able to run it at realtime or faster?
22:55:13[Saint]You had some (very real) concerns about sound quality with Bluttooth( Low Energy). These concerns are negated with a solution such as Chromecast Audio.
22:55:26[Saint]If you like we can move this to #rockbox-community
22:55:37[Saint]It's our 'anything goes' sister channel.
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23:45:16[Saint]guest12345: as this /is/ Rockbox would want to look at, and can compile and play with:
23:45:25[Saint]Which is derived from:
23:45:44[Saint]fs-bluebot: g135
23:45:45fs-bluebotGerrit review #135 at : Add the warble test program. by Sean Bartell
23:46:52[Saint](warble was a POC library created for us under guidance and supervision during a Google Summer Of Code event)
23:48:58[Saint]As you can see from warble.c, assuming you're familiar with or have a basic understanding of the language, the POC includes a basic playback library and hooks to the codecs.
23:49:58[Saint]There's support for start/stop/pause/seek/play-from-offset/and I believe also some rudimentary playback speed control)
23:50:20[Saint]Oh, as well as volume control and replaygain.
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23:54:11[Saint]guest12345: as you can (or might be able to...) see on warble.c around like 540 there is some breathing room in (input_buffer).
23:56:14[Saint]It is currently 32*1024b - this doesn't give you a hell of a lot of breathing room really, come to think of it, but you could very easily slim this down quite significantly and maintain realtime playback.
23:58:36[Saint]You could also conceivably remove the entirety of the metadata parsing and display passthrough, which IIUC you will have no use for.

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