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#rockbox log for 2016-11-27

00:08:08 Join Bilgus [0] (ae6611d9@gateway/web/freenode/ip.174.102.17.217)
00:09:43Bilgusjohnb2: yes pushing Vol+ and Vol- would turn on the backlight as it is an unfiltered button combination, just like play and select would do the same
00:10:29BilgusI could probably block unmapped button combos but I kinda felt like it was a good idea to leave them
00:15:31 Join JanC_ [0] (~janc@lugwv/member/JanC)
00:16:44 Quit JanC (Killed (karatkievich.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services)))
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00:33:55 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
00:42:05 Quit ulmutul (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.0/20161104212021])
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00:58:40***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:08:53dima_any clue when themes server might be up?
01:10:17[Saint]No. It's up/down sporadically, the issue is known, the factor is time.
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01:21:56 Part robertd1
01:30:43dima_you guys wouldnt happen to have a local copy of the "terminal" theme would you?
01:37:37Bilgusprobably be a good idea to specify the player as well
01:38:33 Join nlogex [0] (~filip@dhcp-198-2-91-25.cable.user.start.ca)
01:38:57dima_oh, does that matter?
01:39:00dima_its for the ipod 5g
01:41:51[Saint]yes, yes it does.
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02:24:49 Quit krnlyng (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
02:37:20 Join krnlyng [0] (~liar@77.116.38.218.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
02:37:25dima_can't seem to get the cache site working
02:37:34dima_keeps taking me back to the main theme page
02:58:44***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:58:46 Join Galois [0] (djao@efnet.math.uwaterloo.ca)
03:00
03:05:24[Saint]it wouldn't be useful anyway, as all you would dig up are URIs to files on a server that isn't responsive.
03:13:09dima_so all the files are hosted on the same server then
03:13:29dima_that's disappointing
03:23:37 Quit megal0maniac (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
03:23:52*__builtin has run into some design issues with some of these puzzles
03:24:09__builtinespecially this one: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/untangle.html
03:28:47[Saint]define design issues?
03:29:10[Saint]I imagine pretty much everything without a DPAD-ish type control setup is fucked with that one.
03:29:14__builtinwell control
03:29:38__builtinthere's no way of controlling that, as you said, with a d-pad
03:29:51[Saint]DPAD to control selection, select to 'pick up' a handle, menu+select to drop it.
03:30:11 Join megal0maniac [0] (~megal0man@unaffiliated/megal0maniac)
03:30:29[Saint]and, of course, DPAD to move it when it is 'picked up'.
03:30:39__builtinwell, I guess
03:30:49__builtinalso there's the issue of fonts
03:31:14__builtinthe game code can request whatever size font it wants
03:31:28__builtinbut there's no easy way of specifying a font size in rockbox, is there?
03:31:32[Saint]heh - I drew a penis.
03:31:48[Saint]and, no, there isn't.
03:32:15__builtinshort of reading the entire fonts/ directory and tabulating every font's specs
03:32:16[Saint]though you could ship a font pack for the plugin specifically and add it to the game addons.
03:32:53[Saint]just do '01-font1_10pt.fnt', '02-font2-11pt.fnt' etc.
03:33:19[Saint]ugly as hell but it keeps it out of the shipped binaries.
03:33:32[Saint](because it would get massive)
03:33:46__builtinheck why not just pack them inside the binary and RLE them and write them out on disk and load them at runtime?
03:34:20__builtinthe plugin is already twice as big as the next biggest one
03:34:24[Saint]because that would make the binary needlessly massive and you know that like, maybe three people will ever care about this?
03:35:28[Saint]there's a very real reason we don't ship fonts except sysfont and the default. they get large, quick.
03:35:46__builtinare they compressed at all?
03:36:14[Saint]no.
03:36:54[Saint]we actually made an effort to remove a bunch of themes and fonts because it made the shipped images huge.
03:37:09[Saint]i sincerely doubt anyone's gonna be too happy with you crammin' them back in there.
03:37:20[Saint]:)
03:37:45__builtinso IIUC the fonts are just bitmaps stored without any compression?
03:38:18[Saint]Now, if the user can download them /if they want to/ with the game addons pack, that's a different story.
03:38:19[Saint]and yes.
03:38:37[Saint]AFAIK they're just standard bitmap fonts with an arbitrary extension.
03:39:14[Saint](actually, maybe .fnt is standardized? I don't /think/ so...but, maybe.)
03:39:46__builtinno, doesn't look like it
03:40:05__builtinthe magic number is "RB12"
03:41:56[Saint]Aha, you're right. Been a while since I used the bitmap font scheme.
03:42:15[Saint]https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CreateFonts might give you some more insight.
03:42:30[Saint]it links to more info on FNT which seems to be proprietary.
03:43:40[Saint]you can use AA fonts too, but this isn't going to make things any more friendly with the shipped image size.
03:55:19__builtinwhat's stopping actual truetype support?
04:00
04:00:12[Saint]lack of an actual truetype engine, presumably.
04:01:30dima_[Saint]: think i should just go to bed and hope its up tomorrow? i'm not sure how long its usually down so
04:02:22[Saint]Oh, I didn't realize you were waiting for this.
04:02:26[Saint]Yeah...best to not.
04:02:39[Saint]It'll be up sometime between soon and possibly never.
04:03:18dima_alright. ill just make do with what i have now and try again tomorrow. have a good one.
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08:48:21 Join ipod [0] (47ee5f61@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.238.95.97)
08:48:36ipodhey the webpage for the apple docs file https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodFAQ redirects to the support. its no longer there
08:48:44ipodcant figure out how to boot back into rockbox on my ipod video
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09:05:56 Join PurlingNayuki [0] (~Thunderbi@117.114.158.10)
09:08:43[Saint]Seven minutes folks.
09:09:02[Saint]I guess he figured out that the manual explains this.
09:09:15[Saint]Or actually bothered rebooting.
09:09:44[Saint]Or, more likely, thinks we're all assholes for not answering immediately and had a hissy fit.
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09:26:06dima_[Saint]: i just got a crash or something
09:26:20dima_it says Data abort at 0004950C (0)
09:26:35dima_pc:0004950C sp:4000A7A0
09:26:42dima_a: 0001DF80
09:26:45dima_bt end
09:30:06[Saint]It happens. Those numbers are meaningless sadly.
09:30:17dima_alright
09:30:26dima_and the themes are back up too
09:30:30dima_glad i stayed up
09:30:36[Saint]Those numbers required a mapfile to correspond them to anything useful.
09:30:51dima_is there any way to force a database rebuild?
09:30:59[Saint]We strip the mapfile from released builds for no obvious reason.
09:31:13[Saint]Sure. Check the database context menu.
09:31:27[Saint]Context, init db.
09:32:13dima_i dont see that
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09:32:57[Saint]You know what the context menu is?
09:33:02dima_nope
09:33:20dima_sorry, last time i used this was literally like 3 years ago
09:33:23[Saint]Hold select on the Database main menu entry.
09:33:39*[Saint] gestures in the direction of our fine manual
09:33:41dima_ah got it
09:33:50dima_i tried reading that but...
09:33:56dima_its big
09:34:13[Saint]Yeah. My time is less valuable. Got it. :P
09:34:17dima_lol
09:34:55[Saint]It's big, but it kinda has to be. There's a lot of features.
09:35:09[Saint]If you get the PDF version you can search it.
09:35:14dima_yeah, im starting to grasp the scope of this whole project
09:35:37dima_is there an application to edit metadata on the rockbox?
09:35:48[Saint]No.
09:36:12[Saint]We don't manipulate metadata or any media outside of file naming.
09:36:27[Saint]Or moving it around.
09:37:12dima_i guess file moving is fine for now. drop it in a folder and mark it for editing next time im at a computer
09:37:39dima_good thing there is playlist support
09:39:14dima_using another program to scan the whole ipod and mass edit files wont corrupt it or anything right?
09:39:58 Join ender` [0] (krneki@foo.eternallybored.org)
09:43:44[Saint]I can't speak for any given program's misgivings.
09:44:16[Saint]The database will deal gracefully with metadata changes.
09:44:32[Saint]And playlists are path based.
09:44:46[Saint]So...on our end. No. It won't hurt.
09:45:03dima_hold on what do you mean path based
09:45:08dima_they dont link over folders?
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09:48:23[Saint]Folders are part of paths.
09:48:40[Saint]Paths are comprised of them even.
09:48:54[Saint]Well...not necessarily. But often.
09:49:23dima_i thought you meant the files had to be in the same directory
09:49:25dima_nevermind
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10:58:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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12:22:22duo8i wonder if rockbox could work on a typical pc
12:26:32[Saint]We have an SDL port. So, yes.
12:26:46[Saint]I does. Has for about a decade.
12:26:53[Saint]*It
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12:56:25duo8i mean bare metal
12:57:16pamauryyou could make it work, it's just a matter of having the proper drivers, which in the case of a PC is a real mess though
12:58:00pamauryfor the screen you could really on the bios, but for storage and audio, that's a whole different story
12:58:51[Saint]PC_SPKR
12:58:55[Saint]lol
12:58:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
12:59:15[Saint]Beep that shit out in 8bit glory.
12:59:40pamaurylol, death to audiophiles, 8bit ought to be enough for everyone
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14:47:31 Join cohokiller673 [0] (cohokiller@c-24-22-103-176.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
14:55:13cohokiller673whats the latest method to put it on ipod classic 160gb and is that something i want to do if i want to sync with musicbee
14:58:22[Saint]Freemyipod docs clearly state the current method in their guided install documentation
14:58:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:59:17cohokiller673ok, that's where ill go
15:00
15:06:44[Saint]But I'm fairly confident mudicbee uses libgpod, no?
15:07:01[Saint]It should be able to sync with iOS
15:12:36cohokiller673i've tried and it works sometimes but most of the time it doesn't, sometimes tracks will sync but the ipod will be really slow and glitchy
15:13:59[Saint]You should probably be aware that Rockbox needs no form of "sync" at all.
15:14:23[Saint]Just drag and drop.
15:15:08[Saint]It'll build the database itself, optionally, by walking the disk for available media.
15:15:24[Saint]Or, there's just a file browser.
15:16:00[Saint]Just use plain UMS for media transfer.
15:16:12[Saint]No spooky magic required.
15:17:26[Saint]You only need to use the crazy iTunes compatibility sync magic if you intend to use the original firmware.
15:17:37[Saint]And...why do that? ;)
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15:19:51cohokiller673so tired of itunes
15:20:33pamauryseriously kernel.org, error 404 has a PURPOSE, display a nice popcorn bowl breaks tools
15:23:43cohokiller673i might be able to use my ipod with my car stereo's usb port once i get rockbox installed
15:25:50cohokiller673will it be a fat32 drive?
15:27:56[Saint]So long as you're not doing this on a Mac. Yes.
15:28:17[Saint]And...maybe, maybe not.
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15:29:12[Saint]Some devices see the iPod USB VID/PID and don't even try to handle it as any other method despite it enumerating as mass storage.
15:29:29[Saint]Fair warning.
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17:41:32pamaurygevaerts: do you know curl well?
17:43:51*__builtin points to bagder in #rockbox-community
17:49:20*pamaury is ending up rewriting rockboxdev.sh at this point
17:49:40__builtinwhat's wrong with it?
17:52:31pamaurynothing per-se, just it's not very flexible, it was written with bare-metal toolchains in mind
17:52:41pamauryand want to build a linux toolchain
17:53:05__builtinah, that makes sense
17:53:21__builtinjust don't rm -rf all your toolchains this time
17:54:51pamaurywell that was a ct-ng "feature"
17:55:09pamaurybut I'm rewriting the toolchain build without ct-ng
17:55:26pamauryalthough in the process I've come to understand why people use ct-ng ;)
18:00
18:05:35 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@89-74-169-198.dynamic.chello.pl)
18:06:17wodzpamaury: So why people use ct-ng? Really, I am curious
18:10:25pamaurywodz: because building a linux toolchain involves GNU/magic
18:11:16pamauryseriously, this is what you need to give to configure to build a first stage GCC (I'm sure it changes at every version):
18:11:16pamaurybuildtool "arm-sony-linux-gnueabi" "gcc" "$gcc_ver" "$gcc_opts −−enable-languages=c \
18:11:16pamaury −−without-headers −−disable-threads −−disable-libgomp −−disable-libmudflap \
18:11:16DBUGEnqueued KICK pamaury
18:11:16pamaury −−disable-libssp −−disable-libquadmath −−disable-libquadmath-support \
18:11:16pamaury −−disable-shared −−with-newlib −−disable-libgomp −−disable-libitm \
18:11:18pamaury −−disable-libsanitizer −−disable-libatomic" "" ""
18:11:49pamauryI still fail to see why there isn't a "−−stage1" option given how common this operation is
18:11:59wodzpamaury: sure, but ct-ng doesn't solve this really. It does not document the steps needed. Last time I looked it was a bunch of 'recipes' which break here and there.
18:12:35pamauryyeah but that's the magic of it: people went to great length to figure out the magic commands at every step, because those are completely undocumented anyway
18:13:04wodzpamaury: exactly this, instead of providing insane set of commands why not to document it AND try to push patch to sanitize this
18:14:29pamauryyeah I don't understand why gcc doesn't have a saner way of doing it, maybe the more recent versions do, but 4.9.4 clearly doesn't. In theory it has the −−without-header option but this is far from enough
18:21:16pamaurymy feeling is that gcc would gain from not being written in GNU/C using GNU/autocrazytool with GNU/crazyconfig with a GNU/unhelpful spirit ;)
18:23:01wodzIt is known fact that gcc is arcane. Thats one of the reason llvm/clang took off (and license thing as well)
18:36:27pamauryit's such a shame that glibc doesn't build with clang
18:36:54pamauryalso we should try again clang, maybe I'll try clang on arm to see if it works
18:47:04wodzpamaury: The problem is that we are basically clueless if it doesn't work.
18:48:28wodzpamaury: btw. https://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/GlibcMeetsClang
18:49:18pamaurywodz: there was a time it didn't work because clang didn't know about attribute((interrupt)). I think last time it did but I couldn't spot anything obviously wrong in the generated code
18:52:39wodzpamaury: I mean you'd need jtag or something to figure out whats wrong.
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20:11:59[Saint]speaking of things that don't build things.
20:12:16[Saint]wasn't gcc failing to build itself until fairly recently?
20:12:21[Saint]or possibly still?
20:21:51pamauryI think gcc N and N+1 can always build each other
20:22:08pamaurythe problem is that gcc from now can't build real old gcc
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20:24:11pamauryand sometimes not even that old, for example GCC 6.1 couldn't build some really recent GCC because of some stupid code that used non-standard C
20:24:25pamaury(that GCC 6.1 finally dropped)
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21:13:04MilesAnybody know about Rockbox's AAC-HE support? (on Clip+) I'm trying to find out if it actually does the spectral band replication or just decodes the LC part of the stream.
21:15:39MilesAlso is it generally considered polished now? Saw a bunch of complaints about it but they were mostly from years ago.
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21:48:28saratogaMiles: SBR is decoded except on targets with not enough RAM (SBR uses a lot of RAM)
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21:48:53saratogai think of the Sandisk players that is just the Clipv1 and m200v4 which can't do SBr
21:49:48saratogaolder players will try to decode SBR, but often cannot in realtime due to lack of CPU power
21:50:05saratogawe got very close to getting it working on the old PP devices, but i think it was never quite 100%
21:50:44Miles_Thanks.
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21:51:23MilesSeen Bilgus by the way?
21:51:30MilesBeen trying to get a hold of him.
21:52:12saratogaoh you posted those test files right?
21:53:03MilesYes.
21:53:27saratogai looped that folder for 48 hours on the Clip+ but could not reproduce anything weird (unless it happened briefly and resolved itself between times I checked)
21:53:36MilesI wanted to report Bilgus' build with the modified CPU boost behaviour was working well for me.
21:53:51MilesI wonder if he ever managed to reproduce the issue/
21:54:25MilesYou were still able to pause or skip at any point?
21:54:32saratogayeah, UI was normal
21:55:02saratogawell normal when i checked, no idea if it was weird for a bit in the middle of the night or something
21:55:04MilesThanks for trying at least.
21:55:33saratogai still think the best thing to do would be to reset your settings then try to reproduce it with some minimum set of files
21:56:20MilesI guess I could do that with a spare microSD.
21:56:59MilesI actually didn't test to see if my card or the rest of the collection had anything to do with it yet.
21:57:13saratogamost likely you only need one or two files and to set the player to repeat
21:57:41saratogayour settings may also matter
21:58:02saratogabut anyway, if boost matters, it sounds like the codec isn't yielding enough under some conditions
21:58:37saratogawe have slower players than the clip+ as well, i should probably test one of those
21:58:39MilesIf the tweaked firmware works with the same collection and settings as before now though, I'd imagine something is screwy with Rockbox itself somewhere probably right?
21:59:13saratogaif boosting fixes the problem (and assuming the problem is actually replicable enough that we think its fixed), it is probably something in the codec itself
21:59:48saratogaopus doesn't yield at all right now, it just decodes a frame of audio and then returns, its possible under some conditions that takes too long and starves the UI thread
22:00
22:00:34saratogai haven't worked on the front end of the codec at all (just the transform parts) so i'm not sure how big of a problem that is
22:00:43MilesOh that's interesting.
22:00:57MilesI use a framesize of 60 to encode my opus when the default is 20.
22:01:08MilesI wonder if that's why my files are a little more crashy.
22:01:45saratogathat would make sense
22:01:57saratogaour test files for opus use 5 and 20 ms
22:02:15saratogai have no idea what that actually changes
22:02:51saratogacan you post a link to a 60 ms frame size file? I can't look now, but i'll try later
22:03:01saratogaframe length rather
22:03:09MilesWell my sample set I shared here before was all 60.
22:03:14MilesI can find the link again.
22:03:18saratogaoh okk
22:03:19saratogai have those
22:03:42saratogaif 60 literally means that it takes 3 times as long as 20 to decode one frame, that could be a problem
22:03:49saratogaalthough i don't know if it really works that way
22:04:06MilesIIRC it does.
22:04:39saratogai remember that decoding 5 ms files was much slower than 20 ms
22:04:57saratogatotal time, not time per frame
22:05:40MilesWell I know filesystem access can bottleneck the thing sometimes.
22:07:01Miles...but it probably wouldn't matter in that case now that I think about it.
22:07:04[Saint]Miles: what pray tell is the 'modified boost behavior'?
22:07:09[Saint]genuinely curious.
22:07:32MilesBilgus gave me a firmware where CPU boost is 10 seconds instead of 1.
22:07:58saratogalooking at the documentation, the celt mode of opus uses 20 ms frames at most, so i guess if you specify longer it just packs 2 or 3 together, which probably is linearly longer to decode
22:08:02[Saint]and, yeah, it's really hard to imagine any codec on any target where IO is a legitimate concern for bottlenecking.
22:08:26saratogaalthough this suggests that if you're using celt mode opus you probably should leave the frame length at 20 ms
22:10:11MilesYeah the 60ms things is mostly out of habit since I use lower bitrates for other stuff. 96 kbps the overhead from frame headers every 20ms should be totally negligible.
22:11:00MilesI will try that later then with the unmodified nightly firmware.
22:11:24MilesAnd a folder with the same songs with 60ms frames.
22:14:25saratogaback of the envelop calculation is that 20 ms uses about 1 million cycles per frame, so 60 would be 3 million cycles, or 75 milliseconds unboosted
22:14:35[Saint]the more I look at it the more it seems that pretty much nothing will gain from the (admittedly very limited) work I've done on intermediate scaling.
22:14:43[Saint]pretty much ready to throw this in the toilet.
22:14:55saratogaor probably a little less since the CPU is more efficient unboosted, but roughly 50-100 ms is a good estimate
22:15:27saratoganot sure why it doesn't glitch for a few milliseconds and then boost though
22:15:46[Saint]there's not really a hell of a lot of targets with room to scale efficiently in a linear way.
22:15:54CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
22:15:54*[Saint] grumbles
22:16:04saratogai guess there the reason for that is probably the reason you have this problem and I don't
22:16:12[Saint]not without a whole bunch of futzing around.
22:16:13saratogamaybe some settings ?
22:16:34saratogai wanted to do intermediate scaling for a while, but it is a lot of work for modest gain
22:16:55[Saint]probably you thought of the things I'm finding now slightly quicker.
22:17:06saratogaa simplier way would be to have 2 boost levels but let codecs or plugins specify which 2 (so for example mp3 could request 2 lower speeds, but APE the fastest)
22:17:37saratogaso all you have to do is implement 2 different boost clocks, and an API for switching between them
22:18:47[Saint]hmmm, that's actually pretty clever.
22:19:32[Saint]I would probably also use the 'middle' clock for GUI_BOOST
22:20:02[Saint]very few targets need to boost the GUI as aggressively as it does. A couple do boost it but don't need it at all in fact.
22:20:09saratogathat gets tricky though, since now you need a way to keep track of 3 levels at once
22:20:26saratogawhereas our boost counter assumes only 2
22:20:27[Saint]ipod6g can safely go without GUI_BOOST entirely.
22:20:40saratogathat means you should lower the clock!
22:20:48[Saint]it was just inherited as being enabled for all iPods.
22:21:15saratogadidn't prof_wolff have a patch for the 6g that massively reduced the voltage/clocks ?
22:21:16[Saint]n2g likely doesn't need it either.
22:21:32saratogai vaguely remember that you could get even more ridiculous battery life by better power management
22:21:44[Saint]yes, he did, it was far too aggressive and was hit or miss on individual targets.
22:22:02[Saint]riiiight on the edge of stable.
22:22:07saratogaby the way, buschel wanted this on the old ipod video years ago, so he could do 20 MHz low, and then 100 MHz boost IIRC
22:22:24saratogasince 30 MHz actually wasted a fair amount of power
22:22:35saratogaor maybe it was 16mhz
22:22:36saratogai forget
22:23:24[Saint]actually, what's with that? I have noticed on the iPod video, and maybe others, we /do/ actually have three scaling frequencies.
22:23:32[Saint]but you can only select 24MHz from the boost debug menu.
22:23:45saratogamaybe an idle frequency? i forget
22:23:57saratogawhat are the clocks?
22:23:58[Saint]and it'll go back to 30 immediately when you leave.
22:24:12saratoga30/80 and what is the last? 24?
22:24:19[Saint]24, 30, and...whatever MAX is...80?
22:24:39saratogai vaguely remember that 24 is used when the screen is off and playback is disabled
22:24:48[Saint]Hmmm.
22:24:49saratogaprobably 24 should just replace 30 now that we have gui boost
22:24:59[Saint]likely so.
22:25:16saratogaMP3 playback is multithreaded, so it only needs ~20 MHz for realtime
22:25:31saratogathe extra 10 are wasted when not driving the GUI
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23:58:53cohokiller673Saint, couldn't I change the VID/PID of my device somehow so it wasn't recognized as an ipod?

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