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#rockbox log for 2016-12-16

00:03:00 Join [Saint] [0] (~sinner@rockbox/staff/saint)
00:09:00 Quit robertd1 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
00:09:19Bilguschrisjj per your suggestion I looked into making the menus on selective actions more inline with rockbox, Only possible thing I can do is make you have to go through a second menu to choose Yes/No I'm unsure if that is better or worse than a setting that toggles between on/off when you click it, at least that way you have a visual indication of what it is without having to go through another meni
00:09:54chrisjjThing is though, the rest of Rockbox is highly inconsistent :)
00:10:19chrisjjWhy a second menu?
00:11:27Bilgusalready tried yes /no / settings but it kicks you out as soon as you select an item, there is no way to indicate which item is selected when you enter a menu that uses dynamic text
00:11:36chrisjjAh, right.
00:12:10Bilgusi tried making it so the currently selected setting was at the top but it was too confusing
00:12:38chrisjjYeah, it would be.
00:12:42Bilgusso using a second menu jives with rb and its a lot less code to boot
00:13:02chrisjjI think second menu is best.
00:13:30chrisjjAt least that makes it celar what the current state is... if you look inside.
00:14:30Bilguslol If you look inside is why I had the other method but tbh idc anymore a month of dev is enough for me
00:15:15 Quit alexweissman (Remote host closed the connection)
00:15:57 Join robertd1 [0] (~root@201.208.231.245)
00:18:13chrisjjYou going to make that second menu a sub-menu of the first?
00:22:12Bilgusyep its inside the first just like system>keyclick
00:23:16chrisjjGreat, but naming System>Keyclick>Keyclick is not great.
00:24:12chrisjjSystem>Keyclick>Enable is better IMHO
00:26:49Bilgusah but then is it enabled or disabled nope following the same format
00:27:39 Part robertd1
00:28:03Bilgusit'll be Display>LCD Settings> No backlight on selected settings > no backlight on selected settings Yes/NO
00:29:12Bilgusif there was already a lang defined for enabled or something like that I might consider it but I've already added several KB to english.lang and don't see a point in adding more
00:31:56***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:33:01chrisjj"ah but then is it enabled or disabled" Enabled>On or Enabled>Off.
00:33:06chrisjj"nope following the same format" OK! :-)
00:35:43 Quit dfkt (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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00:42:52Bilgusi'll wait and see if this ever gets committed and next maybe go through and add enabled to the lang file and fix the 5 or so places
00:56:47chrisjjIs there a way to set a track to be played when no other track is playing?
01:00
01:11:59BilgusI don't think so
01:13:09 Quit alexweissman (Remote host closed the connection)
01:27:02chrisjjOK, thanks.
01:27:32chrisjjAlso, is the Shortcuts Plugin mentioned here https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts now gone?
01:28:07chrisjjIt isn't listed in main menu>Plugins, and main menu>Shortcuts seems to make it redundant
01:31:51 Join alexweissman [0] (~alexweiss@c-68-51-123-75.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
01:33:23chrisjjHmm. Gone from \source\rockbox-3.13\apps\plugins\ too.
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02:00
02:04:38 Join PurlingNayuki [0] (~Thunderbi@2001:da8:215:4ff:c8cd:6bb2:744f:5951)
02:07:31__builtinchrisjj: re shortcuts: it's no longer a plugin
02:07:39 Quit PurlingNayuki (Remote host closed the connection)
02:08:13chrisjjOK, I'll mark the wiki page.
02:08:22__builtinit's already marked I believe
02:08:38__builtinoh well, that was because of your edit, it seems
02:08:57chrisjjOops, yes I already did it https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts.
02:09:01 Quit skapazzo (Quit: Lost terminal)
02:09:16chrisjjI'll edit the list.
02:09:58__builtinas [Saint] said, "plugins are my jam"
02:10:34chrisjjOh, I can't becasue it is machine-generated https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginIndex .
02:11:03chrisjjSo, I wonder how it can be wrong. Machines are infallible! :)
02:11:16__builtinI believe you can remove PluginIndex from being the parent of the article
02:12:48chrisjjI can remove CategoryPlugin.
02:13:46__builtinwait a second...
02:14:00__builtina "shortcuts" plugin is still present in the current HEAD
02:14:59chrisjjI removed that, and the plugin is gone from the index.
02:15:22__builtinchrisjj: I mean that the code for the shortcuts plugin is still present in git
02:15:46chrisjjOh? None seen in \rocks source.
02:15:48__builtinlook under rockbox/apps/plugins/shortcuts
02:16:04__builtinit's a multi-file plugin
02:16:42chrisjjI see it.
02:17:03chrisjjBut I think that's not the same plugin.
02:17:12__builtinit is, at least functionality-wise
02:17:16chrisjjI think that's two viewers.
02:17:53chrisjjWell, the wiki article does not accord with the Shortcuts functionality in 3.13.
02:18:11__builtin3.13 is not applicable here, only git HEAD
02:18:55chrisjjOK, good point.
02:19:14chrisjjBut the manual does accord with (3.13) functionality...
02:19:31__builtinif you're still running 3.13 you should definitely get a recent dev build
02:20:02chrisjj... so surely the plugin of https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts is gone, replaced by the Shortcuts feature of https://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ipod3g/rockbox-buildch5.html#x7-970005.12
02:20:24__builtinno, it's not gone, though I agree that it should be removed eventually
02:20:51chrisjjI checked 3.13 since that's the latest production release and so that's what the wiki and manuals should match... no?
02:20:53__builtinthe code for the shortcuts/ directory has not been modifed since 2011
02:21:16chrisjjNot gone? Can you find it on the UI?
02:21:30__builtinviewers are not visible to the user by default
02:21:49chrisjjunderstood, but https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts is not a viewer.
02:22:49__builtinin this case the wiki can be a bit confusing
02:23:37chrisjjIn this case the wiki can be a bit confused! :-)
02:23:42__builtinfrom the source it appears that there is a single shortcuts/ subdirectory under plugins/, but the code in that directory is used to build two viewer plugins, shortcuts_append, and shortcuts_view
02:24:04__builtinso I guess the wiki page name is a bit inaccurate
02:24:33chrisjjit would be... if was referring to those two viewers.
02:24:40chrisjjI see nothing to suggest it is.
02:25:16chrisjjIt appears to refer to an old now-removed plugin.
02:25:17 Quit krnlyng (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
02:25:35__builtinI assure you, it does not.
02:25:40chrisjjE.g. "This will create a file in the root directory of the DAP called "shortcuts.link"." Not true of the current feature.
02:26:39__builtinThat functionality has been merged into the core shortcuts feature (i.e. Main > Shortcuts)
02:28:51chrisjjPartially. Certainly none of the https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts functionality still exist where that wiki article says it does.
02:29:33__builtinFrom what I can gather, this plugin relied on features in the core to function as it should
02:29:44__builtin(and as described on the wiki page)
02:29:57chrisjjFigures. Still the plugin is now gone, though.
02:30:20__builtinThat functionality was removed from the core but the plugins (both of them) were not removed
02:31:33chrisjjYet now there's no pluging meeting the description of https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts .
02:31:42chrisjjGrandfather's Axe, perhaps :-)
02:31:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:32:25__builtinI can promise you that it still exists in HEAD
02:32:44__builtin(well, the two plugins that it consisted of)
02:33:27chrisjjNo doubt some shortcuts plugin code still exists in HEAD.
02:33:36 Join PurlingNayuki [0] (~Thunderbi@2001:da8:215:4ff:c8cd:6bb2:744f:5951)
02:33:50chrisjjBut the wiki is not documenting the source. It is documenting the UI.
02:34:14__builtinThe wiki is definitely out of date, and honestly I don't see why the plugin isn't removed completely
02:34:56chrisjjShould I revert my edit and leave the mess for others to sort out?
02:35:24chrisjjOr shall we get the edits correct for 3.13?
02:35:45__builtinI could in fact remove the plugin right now.
02:36:22chrisjjNow tell me, specifically what "plugin" do you mean?
02:36:44__builtinSorry, the plugins (shortcuts_viewer.rock and shortcuts_append.rock)
02:38:10 Join krnlyng [0] (~liar@77.117.78.23.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
02:38:49chrisjjSure that wont break the 3.13 shortcuts feature?
02:39:02__builtinagain, 3.13 is irrelevant
02:40:22chrisjjHow so? People are using 3.13 shortcut feature and won't they expect them to survive to 3.14?
02:40:33chrisjjs/them/it/
02:41:16 Quit PurlingNayuki (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
02:41:38__builtinThe functionality provided by the original two plugins has been completely replaced by the shortcuts feature in the core
02:42:34chrisjjOK... so...
02:42:55chrisjjthinking...
02:43:13__builtinanyone still using the old plugin's features on 3.13 will have to migrate, yes
02:43:31chrisjjAh, righty oh :(
02:43:50chrisjjThat's what I feared.
02:45:12chrisjjSo "I could in fact remove the plugin[s] right now." means breakage.
02:45:36__builtinThe original functionality has already been severely limited by the removal of core integration
02:46:21chrisjjSort of surprised it builds! :-)
02:46:41__builtinsorry?
02:47:48chrisjjI'm wondering how the plug-in even builds if it can't find the core features at compile/link time.
02:48:45__builtinThe plugins didn't rely on the core to build, but they were meant to be called from core from what I can gather
02:49:08__builtinmuch like the credits plugin is called from the System menu
02:49:15__builtin*how
02:49:46chrisjjAnd are we sure they are not still being called?
02:51:50__builtinlet me check
02:51:53__builtinfs-bluebot: FS #12251
02:51:53fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12251 3user shortcuts in the main menu (patches, closed)
02:52:47chrisjj"I forgot about the existing shortcut functionality when i started this," :)
02:54:24__builtinhmm, a commenter does make a good point that the original plugin made it possible to have what are essentially symlinks
02:54:29__builtinin the form of .link files
02:55:57__builtinSo the original plugin ought to remain
02:56:01chrisjjYeah. And the new author's "they are surpassed with this and should be removed if this goes ahead." is wrong.
02:56:32chrisjjThat leaves us with a muddle.
02:57:08__builtinFor now, you should probably restore the wiki page and leave things as-is
02:57:17chrisjjProbably is wasn't a great idea for the new Shortcuts feature to be allowed in without reconciliation with the existing.
02:57:18__builtin(if you haven't already)
02:58:16chrisjjBefore I restore, can you just tell me where https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts can actually be found in the 3.13 UI?
02:58:50__builtinIf you create a /shortcuts.link file and put a file name into it, and then open it up from the file viewer it will run the plugin
02:59:23chrisjjAnd that's the entire UI impact?
03:00
03:00:49__builtinalso if you create a .link file anywhere and put a filename in it and run it, the file browser will automatically point to that filename
03:01:59__builtinI believe it is this feature that makes the old plugin worth keeping around
03:03:05chrisjjMe too. Coudl eb essential to anyone who is using it.
03:05:45chrisjjhttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginShortcuts restored. Thanks for catching me :-)
03:06:39chrisjjNow can we fix this article so it is at least less wrong?
03:06:51__builtinFeel free
03:08:45chrisjjWith your help, I meant :-)
03:10:54chrisjje.g. "use the context menu on either a file or directory in the file browser tree, and use the "Add to shortcuts" menu option. This will create a file in the root directory of the DAP called "shortcuts.link"."
03:11:05chrisjj... seems plain wrong.
03:11:09__builtinwell, the entry is mostly correct, just remove the sentence about that
03:11:42chrisjjAtS does not create that file. Maybe FS #12251 stomped on that.
03:11:43fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12251 3user shortcuts in the main menu (patches, closed)
03:12:35chrisjjThat will vape all the non-Advanced usage.
03:13:00__builtinwell, the feature is still there, just the core integration is gone
03:13:15__builtinso if you want to, you can mark it as deprecated but kept for compatibility
03:13:41chrisjjI think the AtS feature of /this/ plugin is not still there.
03:14:12__builtinwhat is this "AtS?"
03:14:50chrisjj"Add to shortcuts"
03:14:54chrisjj(menu option)
03:15:17__builtinyeah, but the code to read it that was in the plugin was not removed
03:15:33__builtinso if you still have a shortcuts.link file it still works because of the plugin
03:18:03chrisjjSure, but I'm talking about Shortcuts Plugin AtS. And that's gone from the UI. Agreed?
03:19:21__builtinYes, remove the portion on "Add to shortcuts" because it has been replaced by the core feature
03:19:53__builtinbut everything else is still valid, including the part on reading the shortcuts file
03:21:37chrisjjOk, so how's this? http://i.imgur.com/omc0BPu.png
03:23:09__builtinThe part about reading the shortcuts.link file shouldn't be removed
03:23:27__builtinjust remove the part on how to add shortcuts, as that is broken now
03:24:09chrisjjThat part being the sentence " Launching this file from the file browser..." ?
03:24:23 Join Bilgus_ph [0] (4cf32773@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.243.39.115)
03:24:40Bilgus_phchrisjj: Might I suggest a sample file for the user as well
03:25:00Bilgus_phand a note that it is depreciated
03:25:00chrisjjSounds good... later :-)
03:25:30 Join smoke_fumus [0] (~smoke_fum@dynamic-vpdn-93-125-65-113.telecom.by)
03:28:44Bilgus_phWhy don't I see the main menu reorder plugin in that list?
03:30:17__builtinBilgus_ph: not every plugin has a wiki entry, though they should
03:30:44Bilgus_phnot that it is hard to figure out
03:31:31__builtinthat too ;)
03:32:44chrisjj__builtin: How about this? http://i.imgur.com/h6wqbjr.png
03:33:25__builtinlooks good to me
03:33:42Bilgus_phchrisjj I went ahead and made the menu say enabled although it is kinda odd having enabled at the top when you go to set it so idk not too very happy with the rb menu options
03:34:09 Join PurlingNayuki [0] (~Thunderbi@2001:da8:215:4ff:c8cd:6bb2:744f:5951)
03:34:56chrisjj__builtin: Thanks - saved.
03:35:06Bilgus_phthat wiki entry is still confusing af
03:35:22chrisjjWhich wiki entry?
03:36:30Bilgus_phDirectory entries without a trailing slash will cause the plugin to exit in the file browser with the directory selected. If the trailing slash is included, then the file browser will be left in the directory on the first file.
03:36:44Bilgus_ph^there
03:37:18 Join JanC_ [0] (~janc@lugwv/member/JanC)
03:37:21chrisjjYeah. Not clear. The manual is better https://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-ipod3g/rockbox-buildch11.html#x13-15800011
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03:39:28Bilgus_phyes.
03:51:17chrisjjI can't see why we have wiki & manual, but last time I questioned this I got my head bitten off. :-)
03:51:48__builtinwiki allows for more technical discussion that wouldn't be appropriate in the manual
03:52:03__builtinthe manual is for end-users mainly
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03:52:57chrisjjExample of extra depth in wiki?
03:53:32Bilgus_phlol
03:53:48__builtinwell, read the ones on using git and writing plugins
03:54:14__builtinthey go into a lot more of the technical aspects which don't really belong in the manual
03:54:17chrisjjOh, different topics. Yeah, sure.
03:54:40chrisjjBut unfortunately the wiki and manual compete on the same topics... and are inconsistent.
03:54:50Bilgus_phor the two three on wps themes that conflict with each other ;P
03:55:12__builtinthey are really not the best sources for accurate information... the source code is much better
03:55:20chrisjjAnd goodness, what a farce that WPS thing was.
03:55:23Bilgus_phtwo or three?
03:56:32chrisjj__builtin: Real Programmers don read the source code. They read the binary :-)
03:57:23chrisjjSeriously, I'm talking of user documentation.
03:57:47Bilgus_phhey it eventually worked, no real programmers write accurate comments so they don't have to read the source 6x to remember what it does
03:58:17__builtinhonestly, rockbox isn't written for the end user's convenience
03:58:22Bilgus_ph^
03:58:45__builtinit's made by devs, for devs
03:58:50Bilgus_phif it were it'd be not free
04:00
04:00:07Bilgus_phdevs just change it to their liking and sometimes users get lucky that we make it work for all
04:00:27chrisjj"rockbox isn't written for the end user's convenience" Indeed... making user docs all the more important.
04:00:58Bilgus_phtrue but funny thing is that programmers hate writing manuals
04:01:07chrisjj"it's made by devs, for devs" Got to wonder how the manual and wiki came to exist, then! :-)
04:01:34chrisjj"that programmers hate writing manuals" No problem. Manuals hate programmers writing them :-)
04:01:39Bilgus_phas a way to stop having to answer users
04:02:09__builtinthe wiki is really a place to put more extensive development-related documentation than can be put into source comments
04:03:26chrisjjThat would be less of a problem if a large warning alerted users to the fact.
04:04:01chrisjj'Cos otherwise they might read the wiki into and mistake the wiki for user docs!
04:04:49chrisjjToday's example being a good one. https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/PluginIndex
04:04:54__builtinthe wiki is "good enough" if the reader takes it with a grain of salt
04:05:44chrisjjIMHO this example of user documentation could be improved by being entirely deleted. Leaving users to the manual.
04:06:12Bilgus_phidk i used rockbox for several years without ever reading the manual
04:06:24chrisjjGood move :-)
04:06:30__builtinit's also mostly self-explanatory, IMO
04:06:41__builtingiven some time to poke around
04:10:16chrisjj"it's also mostly self-explanatory, IMO" Docs are for the bits that aren't.
04:10:54chrisjjThe Shortcuts Plugin .link fileformat being a good example.
04:11:41__builtinyes, and the wiki is mostly complete in that regard, it just takes a bit of poking around the source tree to figure out the rest
04:11:54chrisjjBilgus_ph, re the On/Off, perhaps start a discussion on what solution could be used uniformly on the UI.
04:12:25chrisjjLeaving aside why some existing ar eOn/Off and others Yes/No... to a non-question. :-)
04:13:11chrisjjThe Enabled point is a known UI issue, likened to lambda functions.
04:13:24chrisjj(UI design issue)
04:13:50chrisjj"the wiki is mostly complete in that regard" It's the other bits I'm talking about.
04:14:46chrisjj"it just takes a bit of poking around the source tree to figure out the rest" Can't be working too well, else the results would be in the manual, no? :-)
04:16:11__builtinusually code comes first, and documentation is sometimes an afterthought
04:16:23Bilgus_phSounds like you have a hankering for some manual writing :p
04:18:26chrisjj__builtin: Agreed, hence every messup I see, from WPS to Shortcuts.
04:18:57Bilgus_phstuff changes part of progress I suppose
04:19:41chrisjjBilgus_ph: First wiki article deleting and linking to manual! Problem is, there's no superset manual.
04:20:15 Part Bilgus_ph
04:23:46chrisjjTime for bed. Bye for now.
04:26:28__builtino/
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12:08:12pamaury_gevaerts: is there a wiki page explanation how to install rockbox (not the bootloader) in general ?
12:09:01gevaertsNot that I know of
12:09:15gevaertsThe manual has a bit about that of course
12:13:01pixelmamaybe on the port pages (so per port)?
12:15:42pamaury_I am currently rewriting the install instruction for the imx ports. I want to merge all install pages into one, since the instruction are the same and it's annoying to maintain all of them
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13:24:57chrisjj"merge all install pages into one" Sounds good.
13:26:00pamauryI'll do the same for the ZEN ports (ZEN, XFi, Mozaic)
13:34:08chrisjjAnyone else finding the Major Changes RRS feed bust ? rasher.dk/rockbox/majorchanges.php">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/majorchanges.php
13:42:36pamaury_yeah, although I didn't even know it existed
13:43:54chrisjjOK, thanks. Reported. Is rasher still active on the project?
13:44:14pamaury_rasher: apparently your rasher.dk/rockbox/majorchanges.php">http://rasher.dk/rockbox/majorchanges.php page is broken
13:44:30pamaury_not really
13:48:49chrisjjpamaury: Your https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CreativeZENXFi3 is a mystery to me. I have never heard of a Creative Zen Style X-Fi3.
13:49:08pamaury_probably a typo
13:49:35pamaury_fixed
13:54:27chrisjjThanks.
13:54:30chrisjjOrthography refined. Creative ZEN X-Fi3 :)
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14:05:17chrisjjpamaury: Thanks again for the great work on the ZEN BSoD.
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14:33:14chrisjjAlmost all units tested are usable, and some are 100% BSoD-free so far. http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,13462.msg238564.html#msg238564
14:45:25chrisjjAnd that crash on USB "Error accessing playlist control file" seems easily avoidable http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,13462.msg238565.html#msg238565
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15:49:57chrisjjReplacement Major Changes RSS: http://feed43.com/rockboxmajorchangeswiki.xml
15:51:15pamaurychrisjj: is that supposed to be a feed for commits ?
15:51:47pamaurychrisjj: if so, why not used https://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=rss ?
15:52:03chrisjjIt's a feed for the Major Changes list here: https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/MajorChanges
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16:05:28chrisjjHmm... not much accordance seen. Compare GIT http://i.imgur.com/4iiEygs.png with wiki http://i.imgur.com/rrZqwd5.png
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16:13:09pamaurychrisjj: my page is for commits,not major changes
16:13:28pamaurymajor changes are randonly updated when we remember this page exists ;)
16:13:57pamaurychrisjj: oh by the way, do you think the ZEN can be considered stable with the BSoD fix ?
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16:33:58chrisjjpamaury: "my page is for commits,not major changes" Indeed. That's the good reason for anyone who wants just Major Changes to use the wiki page/feed, I think/
16:34:26chrisjj"major changes are randonly updated when we remember this page exists" Got it :)
16:34:47pamauryok, I wasn't aware that anyone following the major changes that closely ;)
16:34:53pamaury*was following
16:35:12chrisjj"randonly updated when we remember this page exists" I think you could say likewise for just about every wiki page, no ?
16:35:33chrisjj"I wasn't aware that anyone following the major changes that closely" And I think you could say likewise for just about every wiki page, no ? :-)
16:37:29chrisjjpamaury: re ZEN status, by RB meaning of stable here: https://www.rockbox.org/ ... ZEN isn't yet stable.
16:43:50pamaurywe don't follow those constraints closely, forget about the manual and rbutil.
16:44:30pamaurywriting the manual is easy (but super boring). Add rockbox utility support for the ZEN is a very nontrivial task
16:45:41chrisjjOK, so tell me what you mean by RB stable and I'll tell you if I think ZEN is stable :-)
16:45:58chrisjjPS "forget about the manual and rbutil" That would be a real shame.
16:46:10pamaurybasically does it run well?
16:50:27pixelmawell, IIRC the Ipod 6G was never promoted to stable because there's mo means to install the bootloader with rbutil. Once you have it installed with the help of some other project for the bootloader part Rockbox is said to run well
16:50:37pixelmas/mo/no
16:51:33pamauryI could add support for the ZEN to RbUtil but that means teaching RbUtil to do MTP, which means 1) Windows specific code on Windows, 2) an extra libmtp dependency on linux 3) what the hell exists on macos
16:51:36pixelmathat might match the "mo" in promoted... sorry for offtopic here
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16:58:13chrisjjTMK it runs as well as some other ports that https://www.rockbox.org/ classes as 'runs well' despite being a way short of all green e.g. https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CreativeZENXFiPort
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17:00:27chrisjjpixelma: "Ipod 6G .. Once you have it installed with the help of some other project for the bootloader part Rockbox is said to run well" Perhaps update https://www.rockbox.org/ which says it is Unusable?
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17:02:47chrisjjpamaury: " means teaching RbUtil to do MTP" I'd vote No. Lots of effort better spent elsewhere.
17:04:08pamauryI'll have a look into it. Basically the question is whether we can easily integrate the code of sendfirm in RbUtil. On Linux this is easy but on Windows I don't know, currently it relies on some ugly DLL
17:11:26pixelmamy point was rather that in my opinion pamaury's view on this is wrong. If everyone makes up his/her own definitions, I wonder why we have them in first place. Maybe we can discuss these categories but we should try to be precise when we use them so that users can find what they are looking for
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17:15:10chrisjjpamaury: Just to say I have found Windows MTP to be a horror of unreliability on ZEN in every app from MediaMonkey (OK, not a great example of solid s/w) ...
17:16:16pamaurymtp is unreliable everywhere it seems, it's too complicated and poorly implemented on devices
17:16:21chrisjj... to Beyond Compare (a great example of solid software). Regardless of whether the fault lies with MS or Creative, taking RB there may just be inviting extreme pain.
17:16:41chrisjjA major attraction of RM on ZEN to me is escaping MTP!
17:16:45pamaurywell sendfirm worked for you on Windows right ?
17:17:00chrisjjs/RM on ZEN/RB on ZEN/
17:21:23chrisjjsendfirm worked on Windows 7 for me. On XP and Vista it was trouble.
17:22:08chrisjjWould RUtil use MTP just for sendfirm? Or for RB player too?
17:22:40pamauryjust to install the firmware, it cannot be avoided
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17:25:00chrisjjOK, then perhaps because the amount of data is small, the chance of fail is small. I'm presuming fail could not brick the device. I.e. fail could be recovered by re-running the OF installer.
17:27:34chrisjjpixelma: "If everyone makes up his/her own definitions, I wonder why we have them in first place." Point taken ... except that it seems to me we don't have them in the first place, so Devs are inevitably suffering Tower of Babel.
17:28:00chrisjj"Maybe we can discuss these categories but we should try to be precise when we use them so that users can find what they are looking for" Agreed 100%
17:29:06chrisjjPerhaps first though should be compliance with one definition we do have: "Rockbox runs well on these players, has a complete manual and is supported by the installer:"
17:30:40chrisjjAFAICT, quite a few of those port don't have manuals. https://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/13091?project=1&opened=5890
17:31:44chrisjjHow about moving them to the "is incomplete" class? (Ignoring that class's inaccurate label "Unstable ports")
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18:45:27cc___hi
18:45:44cc___Sometimes I've got crashes on my sansa fuzev2 when playing music
18:46:43cc___it shows either a white screen with an arror or a screwed up gui, and I have to hard reboot (hold on/off for 10 seconds)
18:47:17cc___there I have a white screen, I'm going to post the error while I'm at it
18:47:37cc___Data abort at 30007C04
18:47:43cc___FSR 0x8
18:47:54cc___(domain 0, fault 8)
18:48:10cc___address 0xCA1A2A23
18:48:33cc___I think it's a similar message each time, only the numbers/addresses change
18:48:49cc___and I'm using a nightly build
18:48:54cc___let me check
18:49:32cc___d492f25-161101
18:50:02cc___I think it happens more often when the battery is low
18:50:10cc___but I's maybe just an impression
18:50:29cc___and I'm listening audio from the mSD
18:50:38cc___I didn't try with the internal flash
18:50:55cc___it's hard to reproduce
18:55:38duo8how do i pull a specific change from gerrit again?
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19:07:34pamauryduo8: there is a download menu on the top right with the commands
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19:46:57fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 78cb7f0, 255 builds, 16 clients.
19:47:34bluebrotherpamaury: I just pushed a change to libtools.make
19:48:05bluebrotheryou should now be able to simply add a c++ file (with cpp file extension) to SOURCE / LIBSOURCES and it will handle that
19:48:36bluebrotherhaven't tried it on Windows / OS X yet, but I don't expect issues there. If so I have to fix them up later :)
19:50:06bluebrotherthis libucl handling is another thing that could be improved, but enough make for today.
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19:52:15pamaurybluebrother: great, thanks
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19:56:35fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 579 seconds.
19:56:36fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision 78cb7f0 result: 0 errors 1 warnings
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21:07:18pamaurybluebrother: there is a typo in libtools.make
21:07:23pamauryyou used CFLAGS for CXX
21:07:52bluebrotheroh, right.
21:08:00bluebrotherI forgot to separate them.
21:08:03pamauryI'm not sure how to fix it because CFLAGS seems nontrivial on some platforms
21:08:52pamaurybluebrother: how do I specify libraries to link against? Can I set LDFLAGS?
21:09:11bluebrotherthe simple solution is to rename it −− currently we use the same compiler options for c and c++
21:09:30pamauryI'm not sure how it works for libraries given that it can be built both as standalone and in rbutil
21:09:48bluebrotheruse EXTRADEPS
21:10:39bluebrotherrbutilqt/Makefile.libs doesn't pass CFLAGS, so no problem here
21:11:12bluebrotherthere's quite some stuff in libtools.make that would make sense to rework a bit. This EXTRADEPS thing is one ...
21:11:55pamaurycan I use `pkg-config −−libs libcrypto++` and hope it will work when building for windows ?
21:11:55bluebrotherwell, EXTRALIBS assumes lib<foo>.a in the build folder
21:12:11bluebrotherthat's pretty unlikely :)
21:12:35bluebrotherby default there's no pkg-config on Windows. Not sure if MinGW actually has pkg-config at all ...
21:12:58bluebrotherI guess on Windows we need to build libcrypto++ ourselves and link it directly
21:14:21pamauryhum, so should I create a ifdef depending on the platform then ?
21:14:40pamauryyou use mxe to cross compile for windows right ?
21:14:46bluebrotherpartly
21:15:01bluebrotherI use mxe for development, but when creating release binaries I use MinGW on Windows.
21:15:28bluebrotherthe problem is that Qt built with mxe for some reason (haven't figured why) doesn't support accessibility properly
21:15:28pamauryI see
21:15:45bluebrotherwith mxe it should work. At least I expect that :)
21:15:57gevaertspamaury: that's why this isn't a problem for you!
21:16:54*pamaury decides to ignore windows for the moment
21:17:15bluebrotherwe could also consider simply importing it and building it as part of the binary.
21:17:42bluebrotherbuilding crypto++ seems pretty straightforward −− just g++ *.cpp
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21:18:34bluebrotheralso, do we need all of crypto++? We could put it in a separate folder and simply add the required sources to SOURCES in the Makefile
21:18:47pamaurybluebrother: actually no, I just need DES for now
21:18:56pamauryand ECB mode
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21:19:45pamauryactually if we are going to use crypto++ for DES, I might switch a number of things to crypto++, like MD5 and AES, since it's probably more optimize
21:19:45pamauryd
21:19:55bluebrothermakes sense
21:20:02pamauryand maybe hmac-sha1, used for ZEN
21:20:17pamauryso maybe it's better to build all of crypto++
21:21:25pamaurybluebrother: EXTRADEPS := -lcrypto++ doesn't work as expected, what am I supposed to write ?
21:21:31fIorzDES and ECB? Sounds like it's missing some MD2, maybe?
21:22:02pamauryfIorz: I didn't choose the cipher ;)
21:22:12fIorzI suspected as much ;-)
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21:22:33pamauryalso it's quite irrelevant since most of Sony security relied on obscurity anyway
21:22:41 Quit idonob_ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
21:22:43bluebrotherthat's not a linker flag, it expects a dependency on an archive
21:22:47pamauryoh
21:23:21bluebrotherhmm. Won't work like that :/
21:23:58bluebrothertry adding it to CFLAGS
21:24:16bluebrotherthat's not really the proper way but afaiu the compiler should ignore it when not linking
21:24:45bluebrotherthen we need to figure if we want to link a system crypto++ at all. But that can be done later
21:24:59bluebrotherplus we should add LDFLAGS to the linker call :)
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21:26:05pamauryah damn it, linking fails because I think it's using gcc as the linker
21:26:47bluebrotherwhy is that? gcc should invoke the linker on the object just fine
21:27:02bluebrotheror is there yet another gcc vs g++ call issue?
21:27:07pamauryI don't know, I get this:
21:27:07pamaury/usr/bin/ld: /home/pamaury/project/rockbox/myrockbox/rbutil/mknwzboot/buildposix/mg.cpp.o: référence au symbole non défini «_ZTVN10__cxxabiv117__class_type_infoE@@CXXABI_1.3»
21:27:21bluebrotherok, looks like there is :/
21:27:38pamauryI think g++ does some making when linking compared to gcc
21:27:46pamaury*magic
21:28:03pamauryor maybe gcc disables some ld magic for c++
21:28:07bluebrotherok, I get it. It links other compiler libs
21:28:37pamauryyeah I replaced CC by CXX at linking stage and it works
21:29:04pamaurynot sure if that the right solution but I don't see any other solution
21:29:18bluebrotherwhen using ld it should work too −− but then it complains about -DVERSION=...
21:29:26bluebrotherthis really needs some more cleanup
21:30:10pamauryyeah ld would be cleaner but that needs separation betwee cflags and ldflags
21:30:17bluebrotherright, and when using ld it doesn't link the standard library
21:30:37bluebrotherno, I think we need to use gcc / g++
21:35:22bluebrothersince that ensures the stdlib stuff is linked correctly
21:35:27*bluebrother is working on it
21:36:22pamaurygevaerts: bluebrother: question for you. The mknwzboot needs to embed an sh script that will run on the device. Should I:
21:36:22pamaury1) hardcode it as a string in the .c
21:36:22pamaury2) put it in a .sh file and use something like bin2c ?
21:36:46gevaertsHow big is it?
21:37:02pamaury150 lines
21:37:22bluebrotherin that case I'd use something like bin2c
21:37:32*pamaury notes that 60% of it is error handling
21:37:34gevaertsI'd say that's too much to maintain as a C string
21:37:45pamauryyeah I think so too
21:39:16pamauryshould I do as in mkimxboot where the .sh -> .c is done manually and the .c is included in the repository or should it be rebuilt automatically?
21:39:49pamauryI don't know how to automatically tell libtools.make to build bin2c ;)
21:39:57gevaertsI think I'd prefer an automatic bin2c
21:45:28bluebrotherI'd prefer an automatic bin2c for mkimxboot as well :)
21:45:48pamaurybluebrother: that's actually a bad idea because it requires a cross-compiler ;)
21:45:50bluebrotherbut libtools.make doesn't have support for that right now. Another thing to add :)
21:45:53pamaury(for mkimxbot)
21:46:37pamauryI am trying something along those lines:
21:46:37pamauryinstall_script.c install_script.h: install_script.sh $(BIN2C)
21:46:37pamaury$(BIN2C) install_script install_script.sh
21:46:37DBUGEnqueued KICK pamaury
21:46:37pamaury# explicit dependencies on install_script.{c,h} and mknwzboot.h
21:46:37pamaury$(OBJDIR)mknwzboot.o: install_script.h install_script.c mknwzboot.h
21:46:38***Alert Mode level 1
21:46:38pamaury$(OBJDIR)main.o: install_script.h install_script.c main.c mknwzboot.h
21:46:40bluebrotherin that case we could have the object in git instead. I usually prefer to have all generators run automatically that make sense to do so
21:47:44pamaurysure I can do that
21:48:18pamauryhum, I can't seem to make make happy with my automatic bin2c
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21:50:19pamaurya finally I made it to work
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21:51:39pamaurybin2c is actually built in libtools.make so it was almost too easy ;)
21:52:53bluebrotherI'm about to push some more changes to fix that linking thing
21:54:19pamaurygreat
21:54:22fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 3ee7972, 255 builds, 17 clients.
21:54:33bluebrotherand done. Now you can set LDFLAGS.
21:56:39***Alert Mode OFF
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22:03:38fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision 3ee7972 result: All green
22:03:47chrisjjRockbox Info > Battery is looking odd on ZEN. "87% 225h 30m". Then after a minute on USB "91% 7h42m". Then after a minute off USB "82% 6h56m"
22:04:43chrisjjI'm guessing XXh YYm is the estimated time to empty. So varies widely on current and hence projected draw.
22:07:40pamaurywe can't measure current draw on the ZEN, estimate is solely based on voltage, which apparently is not reliable. Might be a problem with the calibration curve, I'm not even sure I calibrated it at all
22:09:07chrisjjOK, so X% is measured_voltage/expected_maximum_voltage ?
22:10:48pamauryno, the curve is not linear, we interpolate between 11 known points
22:11:04pamauryyou can look at firmware/target/arm/imx233/creative-zen/powermgmt-zen.c
22:12:39pamauryif you want to help calibrate, what you can do is:
22:12:39pamaury1) charge your device to 100%
22:12:39pamaury2) start the battery_bench plugin
22:12:39pamaury3) start a very long playlist in repeat all mode
22:12:39pamaury4) put a reasonable volume with headphone
22:12:40***Alert Mode level 1
22:12:40pamaury5) let it discharge until it powers down
22:12:42pamaury6) send me the battery_bench.txt file
22:14:30pamauryideally you also want to do the same when charging:
22:14:30pamaury7) [right after power down] start battery_bench again
22:14:30pamaury8) plug usb by holding a key (so that usb mode is not triggered)
22:14:30***Alert Mode level 2
22:14:30pamaury9) let it charge to 100% percent
22:14:30***Alert Mode level 3
22:14:30pamaury10) send me the battery_bench.txt file
22:14:36chrisjj"if you want to help calibrate" Yup!
22:15:22chrisjj "what you can do is: 1) charge your device to 100%" It never reaches Rockbox 100%.
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22:15:48pamaurychrisjj: it doesn't matter, by 100% I mean not charging anymore physically.
22:16:54pamauryyou can go to System > Debug > View battery, it indicates charging status and voltage. If you want to be safe, let it charge 1 hour after it reaches the maximum you usually see
22:19:04__builtinhey Bilgus
22:19:47bluebrotherbattery calibration. The most important thing in a new port.
22:19:50CtcpIgnored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
22:19:50*bluebrother hides
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22:21:37*pamaury finds bluebrother and recalibrates its battery
22:21:59bluebrotherbzzzzt!
22:24:31***Alert Mode OFF
22:24:46chrisjj"you can look at firmware/target/arm/imx233/creative-zen/powermgmt-zen.c" OK...
22:25:02chrisjjFor ZEN: " /* Sansa Fuze+ Li Ion 600mAH figured from discharge curve */" :-)
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22:30:38Bilgus__builtin: ?
22:30:49__builtinwhat is it you were wanting committed?
22:31:11__builtinthe backlight patch?
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22:32:40Bilgusyes but ideally after it gets tested on more targets
22:33:29Bilgusits been tested on around 5 or 6 of 73
22:33:43__builtinhow low level is it?
22:33:46chrisjj"by 100% I mean not charging anymore physically." Understood, but FAOD there's no way to actually determine this TMK. On those units I've inspected, the OF's Charge Complete doesn't appear even after 6hrs on the charger.
22:34:16chrisjj"If you want to be safe, let it charge 1 hour after it reaches the maximum you usually see" OK.
22:34:26Bilgusdefine low level
22:35:01__builtindoes it rely on driver-level or device-specific code?
22:36:12pamaurychrisjj: if you really want to know, go to System > Debug > HW Info > Power, and it shows the charging state: charging, topoff, disabled, discharging
22:37:37BilgusNope it sits in action.c lowest it goes is backlight.c
22:40:27chrisjjpamaury: That says "charging: 1 batadj: 1"
22:40:55chrisjjI assume "topoff" means full, so should I want for that?
22:41:01gevaertsThat's the score, I think
22:41:47pamauryah sorry it must be powermgmt where it show charging/topoff/... wait for topoff. Otherwise in powait, wait for charging: 0
22:44:23chrisjjpowermgmt says state: charging\ncharging tmo: 1436679\ntopoff tmo: 0
22:44:33pamauryok, so wait until you see topoff
22:44:47chrisjjOK. What's "tmo"?
22:45:11pamaurytimeout
22:45:21Bilgus__builtin: afaik its ready I just upped the last commit
22:46:04__builtinlet me test it first
22:46:50chrisjj"timeout" Interesting. I've got 3.88 hours to go!
22:47:16BilgusPlease do.
22:47:39__builtinit doesn't interfere with the default operation, either, right?
22:48:12pamaurychrisjj: this is just the maximum time. It's a safety measure, we disable charging after this time.
22:48:47Bilgusnope
22:48:49chrisjjAh, how very green! :-)
22:49:47Bilgusif turned off it works just like normal
22:50:21__builtinBilgus: one last thing −− are you in CREDITS yet?
22:51:04Bilgusnope
22:52:27__builtinok, then add yourself
22:56:17__builtinit appears that the patch breaks "Backlight on Hold"
22:56:24__builtinis that supposed to happen?
22:58:33BilgusWhat is it doing and with what settings?
22:58:38[Saint]I should hope not.
23:00
23:00:35__builtinok, I have enabled "No Backlight on Selected Actions" and selected some actions to not affect backlight (play and volume), and then when I turn on the hold switch the backlight remains on, even though "Backlight on Hold" is "Off"
23:02:02Bilgusah ok let me have a look into how bl on hold works
23:04:12Bilgushmm thats odd it really shouldn't affect it
23:04:29chrisjjpamaury: I recorded your procedure here https://archive.is/gydhO#selection-1217.1-1283.184 .
23:06:55chrisjjBilgus: ISTM "No Backlight on Selected Actions" isn't quite accurate to design. Perhaps there's a better way of saying "Disable selected actions' restoration of backlight".
23:07:58Bilguschrisjj: what do you suggest?
23:08:12pamaurychrisjj: I am not sure this is necessary, this is the standard calibration procedure, which I should have done during the port
23:09:40chrisjjI'm not sure it is necessary :-) But do you really only need it on one unit?
23:11:07pamaurywe can only have one calibration curve, and it will never be a perfect match anyway because batteries loose capacity over time
23:11:19pamauryit's just an indication
23:12:20chrisjjSo you don't take an average of different units' ?
23:12:46__builtinhey, how do I do LCD_RGBPACK on a 24-bit color depth device?
23:13:06chrisjjPerhaps there's insufficient variation. Or too much!
23:13:21__builtinoh duh
23:14:38pamaurychrisjj: usually manufacturers only one type of battery. And if they don't it's hopeless because it doesn't make sense to "average" discharge curve
23:14:41__builtinnever mind, stupid question... :/
23:15:28Bilgus__builtin: what device are you testing on?
23:15:53__builtinipod6g
23:15:54chrisjjOK. I guess the ideal would be for each device to be able to make it's own curve.
23:16:04__builtinchrisjj: yes, but that's highly impractical
23:16:57chrisjjAnother day I'll ask why :-)
23:17:19__builtinit would require a self-calibrating battery meter, which I /guess/ would possible if every user was willing to calibrate the battery (e.g. full charge/discharge), and even then the battery would change over time
23:19:13__builtinchrisjj: by the way, I have zen build of puzzles available for you to test: https://www.fwei.tk/rockbox-zen.zip
23:19:24chrisjjBrill!
23:20:11chrisjjCan I duplicate the content of teh current playlist in place?
23:20:52__builtintell me when you have it downloaded so I can delete the file
23:25:48chrisjjDownloaded, installed and running (Plugins>Games>puzzles)
23:26:21__builtinok, do the colors look odd at all?
23:27:17Bilgus__builtin: are you testing this on the SIM?
23:27:26__builtinno, hardware
23:27:46chrisjj__builtin: Data abort. Do you want reporting in the forum?
23:28:00__builtinunder what conditions?
23:28:09Bilguscan you check your backlight timeout when you get a chance?
23:28:16chrisjjGame menu. Not sure what press.
23:28:41__builtinrestart your device and see if you can reproduce it
23:28:56__builtinBilgus: 15s
23:28:57chrisjjAre the Data Abort details any use to you?
23:29:05__builtinthe PC, if there is any
23:29:41Bilgushmm if you turn the setting off does it work properly then?
23:29:57Bilgus(selective backlight)
23:29:59__builtinyes
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23:31:06chrisjjpc:688507AC
23:31:22__builtinunder what conditions, again?
23:31:25Bilgusas far as i can tell bl on hold is implemented directly in backlight.c and the only thing i'v changed there is adding a bool to allow ignoring turn on nothing with the off state
23:32:06__builtinchrisjj: also, what game are you selecting?
23:32:32Bilgusah i see it give me a moment
23:32:34chrisjjNone, but had last selected Untangled.
23:33:06__builtinso you didn't do anything but go up and down in the menu?
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