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#rockbox log for 2016-12-23

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00:09:08 Quit ender` (Quit: There are two types of people in the world: those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.)
00:09:18Bilgusok g#1444 is up
00:09:39Bilgus#g 1444
00:10:22Bilgusoh the bot quit lol
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00:15:09Bilgus Gerrit review #1444 at :Fix FMS Volume-long press Up and Down button actions for SANSA CLIP derivatives by William Wilgus
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00:33:31chrisjjHmm... some lines from me did not appear. Retrrying.
00:34:17chrisjjulmutul: On the Play next issue: thanks for testing this.
00:35:25chrisjj" For me this function works exactly as expected (tested on YH820)." I assume this means as expected from the manual: "Play Next - Replaces all but the current playing track with track(s). Current playing track is queued."
00:35:27***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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00:37:15chrisjj"Are you shure you really /stopped/ audio (as opposed to just /pause/ audio)?" Why would you expect audio stop to be required? Note the manual describes the effect on the currently playing track. If play were stopped, there would be no currently playing track.
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01:04:41Bilgus'Play Next. Replaces all but the current playing track with track(s). Current playing track is queued' and if there was no playing track then nothing would be queued sounds perfectly acceptable to me
01:05:20Bilgusif anything put a Note* to add only the selected track stop playback first
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01:27:58chrisjjBilgus: "if there was no playing track then nothing would be queued sounds perfectly acceptable to me" Except that's not the way it works. Try pausing and then do Play Next. The non-playing paused track gets queued.
01:28:56chrisjj"only the selected track stop playback first" I don't understand that.
01:29:01Bilgusas I was saying the other day pause != stopped
01:29:54Bilgusulmutul was telling me / us there is a stop button for every player listed in teh manual
01:30:17Bilgusfor instance the clip+ stop = power button
01:30:41chrisjjBut that should be irrelevant. The Play Next description does not discriminate between the two.
01:31:30Bilgusbut the function does I showed it to you the other day
01:32:04TorCWhy isn't it reasonable that pause is treated as playing? Many CD players keep the CD spinning when paused, and only spin down when stopped.
01:32:35TorCIt can be surprising at first, but I'm not sure any other behaviour would be more correct.
01:33:14chrisjj"there is a stop button for every player listed in the manual" No there isn't. E.g. iPod Video. Not to mention the fact that many "Stable ports ... has a complete manual" have no manual at all! :-)
01:33:35chrisjjspinning != playing.
01:35:22TorCHmmm... try this then: on some cassette players, the pause merely stops the reel drive.
01:36:18Bilgus4.3.1 WPS Key Controls ..........−−−−−−−−>Long Play Stop playback.
01:36:47TorCNot technically playing, but traditionally far closer to play than stop in implementation.
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01:43:49Bilgusif there is no manual look at the rockbox/apps/keymaps keymap-%player%.c file for instance ipod
01:47:31chrisjj"spinning ... far closer to play than stop" The sounds isn't playing. The sound is stopped. That makes it far closer to stopped. The internals are irrelevant when considering the user interface, as here.
01:50:18chrisjjBilgus: You're right - the manual does mention a stop. I stand correct. Thanks. But as far as the WPS is concerned, that command seems to do exactly the same as pause.
01:50:58Bilgusexcept it makes the icon a square instead of a pause sign
01:51:19Bilgusyou are getting pedantic at this point
01:51:29chrisjjIn particular that 'stop' it doesn't clear the playback position, as does stop on e.g. a CD player.
01:52:04chrisjjOn the WPS? I don't see a square on the WPS. Long Play bounces me off the WPS.
01:52:40Bilgusit is in the main window
01:53:22chrisjjI see a square on the Main Menu status bar. But when I return to the WPS, I see no difference between pause and stop.
01:53:31TorCWherever there is an icon to display current play state. There are three. Play, Pause, and Stop.
01:53:45TorCThat must have to do with your current theme not displaying the detail.
01:54:01chrisjjSo what's the difference between pause and stop as far as WPS is concerned?
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01:54:34chrisjjMy theme doesn't dispaly stop on WPS. It is the defaults cabbieV2.
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01:55:29Bilgusthere is an icon strip command in the theme engine but it all depends if the theme implements it
01:55:51Bilgus(Stop Icon that is)
01:56:44TorCHmmm... I think the real answer is that it may be impossible to view the WPS in stopped mode - because there is nothing playing.
01:57:02chrisjjHow can I reenter WPS to see if it shows stop?
01:58:14chrisjjI can't see why WPS should not be viewable in stopped mode.
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02:00:22chrisjjFor example, if you wanted to see what track WPS was on, or what time position it was on.
02:01:08chrisjjOr to step to the track/position at which you wanted to start play.
02:02:54chrisjjISTM you can't do it. Because in stopped state, the only way to enter the WPS is on a Main Menu command that enters play state.
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02:06:18TorCWhat track? AIUI, there is none. Merely (for convenience) a record of what the dynamic playlist is, and where in that track you were.
02:07:41chrisjj"What track?" The track teh WPS is on. The track that will play when you do Resume Playback, reentering the WPS.
02:13:03chrisjjE.g. 1) you are playing a track 2) do Stop - this puts you to Main menu 3) Do Resume Playback - this puts you to WPS with the current track and position unchanged.
02:18:35chrisjjThat's why I say there's no difference between Stop and Pause on the WPS. At least with any default-installed theme. If there's a difference on some other theme, I'd be interested to know what that theme is.
02:19:15shrizzaArgh, infant broke the clip on my clip zip.
02:21:27TorCStill, AIUI there is nothing playing when stopped. Therefore there is nothing to display in *While* *Playing* screen. As a convenience RB remembers where you were so you don't have to hunt that up again because the most common thing to do is to resume because you turned the player off for a while or it powered down after exceeding the idle time, both of which invoke stop. Otherwise, the assumption is that you want to demand some specific random thing, and w
02:21:47TorCBummer on the clip. Those things are useful.
02:23:32TorCshrizza: You might find a cheap one with electronic issues on ebay. With care you can usually get them apart without entirely destroying them to swap cases. Want a different front and back colour? Just buy a bad one that has a back you like to go with your front.
02:24:19shrizzaWell, I have a spare and actually someone here informed me that this one is likely having onboard storage issues.
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02:24:38shrizzaIt randomly gets stuck at "boot 4.0".
02:25:26shrizzaI'm concerned how expensive these things appear to be these days though.
02:25:31TorCSpares are good. Still worth hanging on to.
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02:26:00TorCHorrible, I know. I bought another spare recently myself.
02:26:51TorCNOS from a random for about $65USD delivered - and in purple.
02:27:07chrisjjTorC: " there is nothing playing when stopped. Therefore there is nothing to display in *While* *Playing* screen" Sure there is. There's the tracks that's gonna play when you enter it.
02:27:27chrisjjPlus the WPS doesn't just display while playing. For example it displays while paused.
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02:30:24TorCchrisjj: It's still not playing. Pause, in all formats I recall, has distinct hardware differences that make it technically very close to play and very different from stop. RB makes the user interface difference between pause and stop about as small as it is possible for it to be by making stop act close to pause, not the other way round. At least AFAICT.
02:31:15webuser551so I was just reading the wiki and it says rockbox doesn't have a built in TTS, is that correct?
02:31:40chrisjjI agree it is not playing. But what doesn't make sense is that the UI kicks it in to play mode when I try to view it to see what is current but /not/ playing.
02:33:13chrisjjThis makes even less sense if RB wants the "the user interface difference between pause and stop about as small as it is possible for it to be".
02:33:27TorCBecause, AIUI, only when paused is there something current but not actually playing. Resume playback has to do something? Are you saying "Resume Playback" from stop should start in pause instead of play?
02:34:15shrizzaI think his concern is that there's no way to view the playlist without playing from a stopped state?
02:34:27chrisjj"only when paused is there something current but not actually playing." But that's not true. When stopped, there is something current but not playing. It is the track that starts playing when you next enter WPS.
02:35:29***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02:35:32chrisjj"Are you saying "Resume Playback" from stop should start in pause instead of play?" No. I'm saying I ought to be able to reenter WPS without it being kicked into play mode.
02:35:55chrisjjThen I can put it in to play mode when I want.
02:36:02TorCThen you want it to be in pause mode?
02:36:29TorCBecause there are only three states AFAIK, and only two of them have anything currently playing.
02:36:43chrisjjIf there were a WPS command on the Main Menu, this is what surely everyone would expect it to do.
02:37:30chrisjj"Then you want it to be in pause mode?" I want it to be in whatevere mode it is in. I don't want the mode changed by the act of entering it.
02:37:38TorCBut there isn't a WPS command on my main menu, just resume playback - which does just that.
02:38:19chrisjjResume Playback is fine for people who want to resume playback. Not find for people who simply want to reenter the WPS.
02:38:52TorCBut AIUI, when stopped, all track info is unloaded from memory. There is nothing for WPS to act on in stop mode unless I've misunderstood things.
02:38:55chrisjjEvery DAP OF that I know allows one to freely enter the WPS-equivalent from the main menu.
02:39:22chrisjj"when stopped, all track info is unloaded from memory." You keep saying that, but that's not what I find. e.g. the example I gave.
02:39:45chrisjjGave here:
02:42:56shrizzaIt is true that preparing a playlist while paused/stopped is fiddly if not impossible since RB insists on playing/resuming when performing insert actions.
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02:43:46shrizzaInserting when paused I guess is fine if your playlist isn't empty.
02:44:42shrizzaBut there's no way to prepare a fresh playlist without having RB kick into play and then pausing it to continue inserting.
02:44:48shrizzaFrom what I can tell anyway.
02:45:12chrisjjshrizza: I get Insert switching to Play only in Stop state.
02:45:26chrisjjInsert does not switch to Play in Paused state.
02:45:41TorCI suspect what you want exists only in a file - quite possibly /.rockbox/.playlist_control
02:47:06TorCBecause pause is a play mode, just temporarily paused. Pause still takes up the audio buffer space and all that. Stop unloads that, and one of the uses for stop is to allow for large plugins that need more RAM/processor than is available while playing.
02:47:11chrisjjTorC: I suspect it exists on the WPS that we're prevented from seeing :)
02:47:55chrisjjInteresting. Which plugin, for example?
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02:49:19chrisjj('cos I thought any launch of a plug-in that needed the audio buffer did its own Stop.)
02:49:33TorCSome of the games are that way. RFA configurator will stop the playback when doing some operations. I don't use many games/plugins (RFA config is about the only one)
02:50:14chrisjjWhich game? I've found no game that requires the user to Stop first.
02:50:21TorCYes, the plugin calls the stop in one way or another, but the effect is the same: get into a mode which makes the resources available, i.e. get out of a play mode.
02:51:07chrisjjOK, so your saying this is one of the uses of Stop mode, not this is one of the uses of the Stop /command/.
02:51:46chrisjjSo, is there /any/ use for the Stop command? Apart from changing the status bar icon to a square :-)
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02:52:19TorCThe other use I make of it is to set a bookmark - but that requires bookmark on stop to be active.
02:52:39TorCThere's probably another way to set a bookmark offered in the fine manual, though.
02:53:21chrisjjCan't you do that in Pause?
02:55:29chrisjjOh, sorry, I misunderstood.
02:56:11chrisjjYou mean that you use the automatic bookmarking on Stop.
02:56:49TorCYep. The other way I just found looks a bit convoluted, though it no doubt works.
02:58:30chrisjjThen ISTM the Stop command's only purpose is as the Pause command, but with the option to autoset a bookmark.
02:58:37chrisjjDo you know any other purpose?
03:00:27TorCI can't claim knowledge of one, but the state has to exist.
03:01:38TorCIf you want the WPS screen to be viewable in stop mode, you can write it. I don't care enough to make it worth my time even if I had the skill.
03:03:48chrisjjWe've seen nothignnothign to indicate the state has to exist. If you try my example, you'll see that the Stop state stores the same info as the Pause state. Hence any plug-in that needs to suspend playback could simply Pause. No need for Stop.
03:06:02chrisjjulmutul: "Are you shure you really /stopped/ audio (as opposed to just /pause/ audio)?" I tried really stopping auto (by holding Long Play) before doing the Play Next.
03:06:52chrisjjThis is what I got: . I.e. Stop caused the Play Next command to disappear from the menu. If you managed to do Play Next while stopped, I'd love to know how.
03:11:05chrisjjBilgus: see my 2:05 to ulmutul
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03:46:16Bilgusyes after you stop playback only insert is left in the menu which calls the same function as PLAY NEXT
03:48:00BilgusNew Selective Backlight, Advanced Softlock Firmware is up; TorC, Johnb2 in ~20MINUTES
03:54:44chrisjjGoodness know why anyone thought it smart to move the same function to a different command just because the WPS is stopped!
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10:34:57BilgusCHRISJJ Insert. Add track(s) immediately after any tracks added via the most recent Insert operation. If no tracks have yet been added via an Insert, new tracks will be added immediately after the current playing track. If playback is stopped a new dynamic playlist will get created with the selected tracks.
10:35:23BilgusPlay Next. Replaces all but the current playing track with track(s). Current playing track is queued.
10:35:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:35:44Bilguswhat more do you want??
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11:00:46TorCBilgus: To be a complainipus?
11:04:57TorCBTW, I'm downloading the new version. The build ID in the file name appears to be the same as the 12/20 version I have, just with a different compile date. Is this expected?
11:05:50Bilgusreally? sure it isn't just slightly longer?
11:06:24TorCBoth say V866aad1M-$date
11:07:02TorCls sorts them one above the other, making it real easy to check.
11:07:56Bilgusyea you are correct I'm guessing since I hadn't committed changes when I built them it didn't change
11:09:39TorCAll those pesky details the computer demands you do its way.
11:12:03BilgusIf in the backlight menu there is only an entry that says 'Disable Unmapped Buttons' then it is correct sorry for the confusion
11:12:51TorCI installed it, and yes, there's only one entry for unmapped/unknown buttons as you say.
11:14:58Bilguswell it should be exactly that string if unknown is anywhere in there it isn't correct
11:15:45BilgusThats the only user facing change at least behind the scenes different story
11:16:09TorCThat's the string - at least in selBL settings.
11:17:13Bilgusok then all good
11:18:57TorCGood. That makes things easier for you.
11:22:00TorCjohnb2: ^ So that you know the change propagated even though only the date and not the build ID changed.
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14:44:35treaki__ive got a Sansa Clip+ with a broken power button
14:45:05treaki__i can still start the device using usb power, but the controll is very limited
14:45:20treaki__right now its frozen, and when that happens i have no way but waiting until the battery is emty to get it running again
14:46:08treaki__so my question: is it possible to build a modified bootolader that can use the menu button similar to the power button (long press=force reboot, short press on off condition=power on)?
14:46:16treaki__thanks for any help on this in advance
14:50:18Bilgusyou wouldn't be able to do the power on part
14:51:01Bilgusthat is controlled by the device but remapping power off wouldn't be impossible
14:53:04Bilgusnext question is what would you want to give up to have power off as the clip doesn't have free buttons, so trade off would be either multiple buttons to press or giving up an existing function
14:54:44Bilgusnow if the device were hung OTOH I don't think you could do anything anyways
14:55:18Bilguswhy not fix the power button hardest part is getting the device open
14:55:58treaki__Bilgus, power off is not the problem, i just have to set the timer matching and stop playback, wait 10 minutes and its off
14:56:11treaki__to get it on, or reset it is the problem...
14:56:54Bilgustake out the power button and use finger nail clippers to remove switch and make a little foil tipped stick to bridge the contacts if you don't have access/skill with a soldering iron
14:56:58treaki__i am not the hardware guy, and not able to solder such a small button, i have also lost that button and it wouldnt pay off to order a new one of that size...
14:57:36treaki__so what would you suggest me to do to be able to reset/power on using the home button, do i have to install the building system and modify some lines of code?
14:57:47treaki__if so how exactly do that?
14:58:58BilgusWhat I'm getting at is if the device is truly hung you can't
14:59:20treaki__it was that much difficult to open it up the first time and now it lookes quite bad, i am not able to open it again without future damage, i am, how to say it in english...
14:59:27Bilgusthe power button does hard reset in hardware
15:00:01Bilgusso have you already removed the actual switch (not just the plastic button?)
15:00:43treaki__i have very gross motor skills, if thats the right frase for it...
15:01:12treaki__Bilgus, the switch soldering was lose and after i tryed to fix it again i have lost it
15:01:39Bilgusok so you have an open switch hole as well?
15:02:13Bilgusie. the plastic button is gone?
15:06:02Bilgus^look there not power button on top right
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15:06:59Bilgus^look there note power button on top right
15:07:32Bilguswhat I would do is bend a paperclip and make a reset clip to bridge those contacts
15:08:06treaki__thanks for all the harware related intel, but the only possible way to make this thing usable agian would be a software solution working without opening up the player, its much to small for my big hands to make anything better
15:08:27Bilgussoftware can't do a hardreset
15:08:52Bilgusyou don't need to open the player to hit those contacts with a paperclip
15:09:23treaki__hard reset is only done on long press
15:09:28Bilgusif the button is still there then melt to small holes just to either side of the power button with a hot paper clip
15:09:43treaki__i have asumed that that it is firmware/bootloader based
15:10:03Bilgusno, the clip tries to shut down before the hardreset is called in hardware
15:10:19treaki__or is ther actually a hardware timer or another microprozessor integrated that dose the reset???
15:10:56treaki__so is it possible to modify rockbox that i can long press the menu button to reset the device?
15:11:05treaki__or maybe some signal i send using usb
15:11:06Bilgusif you truly have a hang then nothing in software is getting called anyways
15:11:46treaki__i dont want this situations where i have to wait until the battery is emty to get use of the player again
15:12:13Bilgusmeh maybe you could have a watchdog timer that you pet every so often but I haven't looked into the AMS datasheet to see if such a watchdog exists
15:13:04treaki__yea, i am only a java programmer that can do hello worlds (and a little more) in c, so i would need some help to know where to start...
15:13:33treaki__do you know enough bout the coding of rockbox to help me with that?
15:14:37Bilgusif such a timer exists maybe.
15:16:30BilgusI still say you would be better off shorting the pins
15:17:49treaki__you dont know me, i am happy if i can insert pc memory the right way
15:18:53Bilgusthere isn't much else you could mess up
15:19:50Bilgusbend a paperclip in a L and wiggle it back and forth
15:20:43BilgusThere are several watchdog timers in the older version of the chip who knows if the clip+ is the same and thats pretty low level
15:23:58Bilgusonly thing under the power button is the head phone jack
15:24:30Bilgusnot like you need to press hard and how often do you need a hard reset?
15:26:06chrisjjInsert is currently broken. It is supposed to leave the track there "even after it is played." In fact, the track gets wiped when play reaches the current playlist's end:
15:32:53Bilgustreaki__ I found some watchdog functions that would probably work but I have no Idea how viable an option it would be, probably mess with everything and have the device resetting on you constantly
15:35:36chrisjjDynmanic playlist detection is currently broken. Resume Playback can indicate there's no DP whilst at the same time Files, track Select can say there is a DP.
15:36:18chrisjjTesting on ZEN simulator dev build 2016-12-18 3ee7972
15:36:43treaki__Bilgus, is it possible to enable some usb serrial to debug all that watchdogs so i could thest them out if one of the would be suitable?
15:37:11treaki__where should i start in setting up a matching development enviorment?
15:38:32BilgusI'm not the person to ask on the USB stuff
15:38:59BilgusDev environment though is easy
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16:10:22BilgusChrisJJ go to the Main Menu > Playlist Catalogue long press select and choose View Current Playlist
16:16:24chrisjjWTF is it doing in there?? Playlist Catalogue has nothing to with WPS.
16:20:33chrisjjSo, why on earth is Main Menu 'Resume Playback' not resuming playback? Why it is barring a return to the WPS, saying "Nothing to resume"?
16:20:39BilgusI'm guessing there is some difference between Dynamic Playlists that the manual hasn't hinted to
16:21:07chrisjjDifference between DPs and some other kind of playlist?
16:21:39chrisjjOr differences between various dynamic playlists?
16:23:29Bilgusperhaps? it seems when a saved playlist is done playing the result is the same
16:24:32Bilgusif you choose Repeat All it works like that
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16:31:06chrisjjOK, I retract my "Insert is currently broken." It looks as if the fault is instead in Resume Playback, which is supposed to "resume if music playback is stopped or paused and there is something to resume" but in this case fails: ->
16:32:41Bilgussubmit a bug then
16:33:17BilgusI'm assuming that when a playlist is done it is considered nothing to resume
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16:38:02chrisjjThe thing that's there to resume is the current playlist. :-) The word resume means continue /or begin again/ and begin again is the only sensible thing to do here.
16:38:12chrisjj"submit a bug then" Will do.
16:54:41chrisjjpamaury: re your "take the first file of the new playlist, and press play, it clears the playlist and adds one file" (which fails to clear clear a CP /equalling/ the list of tracks /containing/ the single required track)...
16:54:49chrisjj... now I find it fails in the Nothing to Resume state:
16:54:54chrisjj... and fails differently in the Stopped state:
16:56:39chrisjj...and fails in the paused state.
16:56:50chrisjjI'm now unsure of whether it ever works.
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18:43:15chrisjjpamaury: This Play function doesn't accord with the manual
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19:18:14BilgusJohnB2: I've decided to leave unmapped actions as they were it would be better to edit the keymap on offending devices rather than add all the extra code to filter it out
19:19:58Bilgusthere is definitely a reason to leave unmapped action in as it prevents the double key presses
19:21:00Bilgusbut in the case of the fuzev2 the center button is still mapped to STD_OK
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19:25:35johnb2Bilgus: I completely agree, for me your code is already a 99% percent solution and it's not worth adding complexity. For the Duze Select I don't really care.
19:27:36BilgusYeah as I was going through I found some optimizations that are IMO more important than trying to workaround the action fall through Editing the keymap on devices like that is pretty simple and won't incur overhead on all the other devices
19:27:56Bilgusnor run the risk of breaking anything
19:29:22johnb2* Fuze not Duze
19:30:52BilgusI'll look over what I have in the next day or two and compile new builds
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19:31:49johnb2alright, then I will wait until then for further testing. BTW, where are you located?
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19:33:29Bilgusill go ahead and commit if you want to compile it your self I just don't have time to wait for the mess of them to compile and upload
19:34:23BilgusI also think i'll leave the name Disable Unmapped Actions as it is still technically true
19:43:39Bilgushere is the first part #g1445
19:43:40fs-bluebotGerrit review #1445 at : Make short press of SELECT in FMS return ACTION_NONE on Sansa Fuze by William Wilgus
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19:55:10Bilgusand #g1417 is up as well
19:55:11fs-bluebotGerrit review #1417 at : Selective Backlight/Advanced Softlock - Selective actions based on context by William Wilgus
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20:22:57monolithI can't find the rockbox build for the most recent iPod Classic
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20:23:47monolith* 6th gen
20:24:37monolithIf I remember correctly from when I did this a long time ago, there was a custom bios I had to install that then made a build compatible
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20:27:56monolithNevermind, I solved my own issue
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21:54:22chrisjjWhen in Stopped state, Files track Current Playlist removes the Queue commands, preventing any tracks from being Queued. The manual fails to accord, AFAICS. Anyone know a reason for this, if it is not a bug?
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