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#rockbox log for 2017-01-08

00:04:57 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.")
00:05:34chrisjjlebellium, re your URL+PDF search, I use Teleport Ultra (not cheap) + Agent Ransack for that. Works great, and with stealth. If you'd like me to run a job, give me a list of urls (or pattern) and the content pattern if not just "NZW".
00:06:46[Saint]chrisjj: you're aware there's rather a great deal of devices that do not appear on, no?
00:06:46[Saint]...I guess not.
00:12:08[Saint]did you recently retire or something? you seem to have a lot of time for nitpicking and entitlement lately.
00:14:18 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik)
00:15:51[Saint]the guts of it is that just because there's a subset of code in the tree for any given target doesn't mean it appears on the mainpage or installer.
00:18:13[Saint]to be honest, I would like to get rid of the concepts of stable/unstable/unusable entirely.
00:18:36[Saint]they're largely meaningless.
00:21:37 Nick megal0maniac is now known as Guest29437 (~megal0man@unaffiliated/megal0maniac)
00:21:37 Quit Guest29437 (Killed ( (Nickname regained by services)))
00:21:37 Join megal0maniac [0] (~megal0man@unaffiliated/megal0maniac)
00:26:45 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
00:35:18 Join Senji [0] (~Senji@
00:36:10chrisjjAdd to New Playlist primes the input to go after the extension, which creates a file that RB then does not recognise. I'm guessing this is a bug... unless anyone here can suggest a good reason for it.
00:37:36***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:38:15pamaurythere was an attempt of a port to the ZEN Vision M at least
00:38:16[Saint]pamaury could probably have his own section on mainpage.
00:39:39pamauryconfigure lists ZEN Vision/Vision M/etc builds but I don't know if the port was ever successful or just never completed or never announced
00:43:21chrisjjThanks P.
00:43:33chrisjjA :-)
00:43:52DBUGEnqueued KICK [Saint]
00:44:22__builtinsurprised you spelled that one right, [Saint]
00:48:50chrisjjpamaury: I'd seen the ZEN Vision M attempt. That model is substantially different and doesn't interest me.
00:50:24 Quit petur (Remote host closed the connection)
00:50:48pamaurychrisjj: the port supports Vision and Vision M, at least that's what configure script claims
00:52:07 Quit Mihail (Quit: - A hand crafted IRC client)
00:52:14[Saint]I guess the concept of builds that support multiple variants is what caused you to claim that there were 'multiple' release targets without a manual.
00:52:33[Saint]I'm still kinda lost on that one because it's very easily disproven.
00:53:55pamauryI mean the source code supports both, possibly with some #ifdef, those are two different builds
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00:58:32 Join megal0maniac [0] (~megal0man@unaffiliated/megal0maniac)
00:59:52chrisjjpamaury: Ah, thanks, I see it (target_id=39). I've noted this info in the wiki article.
01:00:50 Quit Guest62154 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:02:47pamaurynot sure I see the point
01:02:48chrisjjpamaury: does the ZEN port have anything for battery charge management beyond the RB standard DFS? I'm meaning charge management e.g. preservation, rather than e.g. display.
01:03:10 Quit megal0maniac (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
01:03:30pamaurywhat do you mean by preservation ?
01:03:32 Join megal0maniac [0] (~megal0man@unaffiliated/megal0maniac)
01:05:19chrisjjI mean maximising battery runtime.
01:05:47chrisjjbattery lifetime.
01:05:55pamauryof course
01:06:13chrisjjbeyond the RB standard DFS??
01:07:33[Saint]It's really mostly needless voodoo magic.
01:07:43pamaurywell there no "standard" per say, if the code supports it, rockbox can scale the frequency but on imx233 we scale the frequency, the core voltage and the memory frequency
01:07:46[Saint]Charge goes in, charge comes out, almost always handled in hardware.
01:08:04[Saint]he means charge management I believe.
01:08:17[Saint]the weird consumer voodoo people think matters.
01:08:37pamauryno I think DFS means Dynamic Frequency Scaling
01:09:16[Saint]hmm, I thought he was just confused, because it's not like that has anything to do with charge management.
01:09:21[Saint]but, fair call.
01:09:58chrisjj(DFS does mean Dynamic Frequency Scaling)
01:10:03chrisjjYou answered it. Thanks.
01:11:12 Quit ender` (Quit: Do not believe any statistic you didn't falsify yourself.)
01:11:25pamauryI mean, there are other tips and tricks to optimizing battery life but frequency and voltage are really the main contributers
01:11:33pamauryon the ZEN, afaik
01:12:29pamauryI don't remember how rockbox does compared to OF on the ZEN
01:12:47chrisjjDoes the ZEN port use any of these other tricks for maximising battery /runtime/?
01:13:21pamauryactually on the ZEN I disabled memory frequency scaling, it only scales cpu
01:13:21chrisjj(that you remember)
01:13:29chrisjjAh, right.
01:13:50chrisjjAny particular reason you disabled memory DFS?
01:15:30pamaurywhen you change memory frequency, you have to disable access to RAM for a short while. That can cause a dma underrun. On STMP3780, this is not an issue because the dma can recover but on STMP3700, because of the display+dma hardware bug, I've deemed it safer to avoid it altogether
01:15:41pamauryotherwise it causes display glitches
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01:16:26fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 5c6ccb4, 255 builds, 16 clients.
01:17:30chrisjjYou saw such glitches?
01:17:48pamauryusually it will garbage a frame
01:18:18chrisjjWith your display+dma fix applied?
01:18:33pamauryI disabled memory scaling to avoid the display glitch
01:19:08__builtinpamaury: I'm going to just go ahead and revert the commit regarding the buildmaster
01:19:09pamauryI guess in theory one could sync the memory scale at the end of the frame but that's much work for little gain I think
01:19:19pamaury__builtin: ok
01:19:44__builtinstill zagor needs to increment the version number
01:19:52chrisjjThat work is just a loop waiting for sync, no??
01:20:00 Quit Senji (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
01:20:57__builtinthat sounds like a bad idea
01:21:06pamaurychrisjj: not really, a frame takes a long time, you don't want to busy wait for a full frame
01:23:11chrisjjOK, got it. So you'd have to schedule the disable for background, and I guess that delay at full speed could lose a significant part of the saving.
01:24:38pamauryto be fair I haven't benchmark with and without memory freqency scaling, but that's probably small compared to cpu scaling anyway. But why all those questions if I may ask ?
01:30:07fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 820 seconds.
01:30:08fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 5c6ccb4 result: All green
01:35:36chrisjjI was wondering as to the cause of RB's reduced battery runtime w.r.t. OF.
01:35:55pamaurywhat is the difference ?
01:36:06chrisjjNot that I mind a few hours less... provided I know the cause :-)
01:36:15[Saint]not really a fair comparison.
01:36:26[Saint]like, at all.
01:36:36 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.1.0/20161208153507])
01:37:24pamauryIf you give me some actual number, with comparable tests on the SAME device, I'll consider investigating it
01:38:03chrisjjI haven't benchmarks, and it seems to vary with audio file type and memory capacity, but I'd say RB is 75%.
01:39:06chrisjjIf it is likely due only to absence of memory DFS, then it doesn't sound worth your work to me.
01:39:13 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
01:40:01pamauryI can send you a build with memory DFS if you want, but then you'll have to benchmark objectively at least between RB and RB+mem DFS
01:40:12pamaurybecause subjective tests are really useful
01:42:06chrisjj'not really useful' I'd say :-)
01:42:28pamauryyes, that's what I meant ;)
01:42:33chrisjjI guess :-)
01:43:02chrisjjI can benchmark objectively between RB and RB+mem DFS - just not much between RB and OF.
01:43:36pamauryyou already benchmark RB, it lasted 22h40 apparently
01:44:00pamauryso now you would need to benchmark RB+mem dfs on the *same device*
01:44:27chrisjjSame device, same files, same volume, same everything :-)
01:44:43pamauryI'm compiling a build with mem dfs
01:44:45chrisjjI'd repeat the RB plain test.
01:44:50chrisjjSo if you think memory DFS might be not too much work to add, let's do the benchmarks.
01:45:29pamauryIt's trivial to enable, just be prepared to see display glitches
01:46:17chrisjjI'm assuming the only side-effect of mem DFS is the garbage frame you mentioned... which won't itself have any effect on battery consumption.
01:47:06chrisjjI know it is trivial to add memDFS with glitchy LCD.
01:47:07pamauryit's already enabled in all builds except ZEN and ZEN X-Fi
01:47:38chrisjjWhat I meant was 'if you think memory DFS with glitch avoidance might be not too much work to add...'
01:48:00[Saint]glitch avoidance was added.
01:48:04[Saint]you're asking for it back.
01:49:48pamauryno, maybe I was unclear: on the zen and zenxfi, mem dfs is disabled because it causes graphical glitches, but it is enabled on all the others. Thus I'm sending you a ZEN build with mem dfs enabled, but they might be glitches
01:51:12chrisjjUnderstood. And I am saying the mem DFS is benchmarking only if the additional work required to deglitch it is affordable.
01:51:58chrisjjI'm saying I agree with you that glitchy (and possibly crashy) operation is not fit for release, whatever the gain in battery runtime.
01:52:01pamaurywell for the sake of science it's always useful to know if it makes a difference, even without the glicth
01:52:13chrisjjScience?? :-)
01:54:26chrisjjs/the mem DFS is benchmarking only if/the mem DFS is WORTH benchmarking only if/
01:55:03chrisjjOK, for Science, let's do it :-)
01:55:54 Join saratoga [0] (123e1c1b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
01:56:19saratogabenching any firmware is easy if you have a PC with a MIC or line in jack
01:56:34saratogajust play files and record to wav, see how long the music plays
01:57:42chrisjjEasy if you have a PC with a line-in jack that is otherwise unused for 60hrs :)
01:58:42chrisjjBut I have other recorders e.g. a dozen DAPs.
01:59:22chrisjjHowever doesn't Rockbox system runtime suffice, without recording?
01:59:32pamaurychrisjj: use battery_bench
02:00:19chrisjjOOI, does the extra info from battery_bench help us here?
02:00:35saratogain rockbox you should use the plugin for battery testing, but if you want to test any original firmware, you can't do that
02:01:16pamauryit's just more practical, also if we enable mem dfs in the future, that gives us discharge curve to calibrate
02:01:26pamauryanother one
02:02:23saratogais there an imx runtime page?
02:02:27saratogaor Creative?
02:03:11 Part robertd1
02:05:37saratogacnet says that the Zen Xfi got 11 hours run time in their test with a new battery
02:08:32chrisjjpamaury, OK. I'm assuming the preferred audio format for such a test is WAV.
02:10:48 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
02:12:09saratogawhat do you mean?
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02:14:14[Saint]format doesn't matter a bean as long as it is repeatable.
02:14:28[Saint]do whatever you want as long as you can do it twice.
02:14:56[Saint]though the world at large is likely going to be more interested in LAME320.
02:30:25 Quit CaptainKewl (Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: ))
02:37:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:02:18chrisjjAny playlist experts here? Why does <playlist> > Playlist Catalogue > Add to New Playlist fail to add the playlist to the new playlist? Instead it copies the playlist's references to the new playlist. I though RB was supposed to do recursive playlists.
03:22:59[Saint]playlist catalog is a fucky feature I'm not certain anyone really understands except JdGordon
03:23:09[Saint]who probably long forgot whatever the hell he was shooting for.
03:24:02[Saint]and who all but disavowed himself of the project years ago.
03:26:24__builtinchrisjj: what makes you believe that?
03:26:48 Quit chrisjj (Quit: Page closed)
03:27:08fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 077e206, 255 builds, 16 clients.
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03:34:33chrisjj__builtin, '[Saint]y'know you can nest playlists, right?'
03:36:15[Saint]well, that largely depends on how you're trying to achieve it.
03:39:19fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 732 seconds.
03:39:20fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 077e206 result: All green
04:20:05 Join ddubs [0] (68fe5a22@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
04:20:50ddubsI am attempting to mod my sony nw-wm1a
04:21:02ddubswith scistool-nwz-v3.exe
04:21:09ddubsi keep getting this message
04:21:22ddubs"Device didn't send the expected amount of data"
04:21:29ddubscan anyone help me with this problem?
04:23:43[Saint]the person who is best suited to is not here.
04:23:59[Saint]you would be best to do this via our forum if time is not a pressing issue.
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04:37:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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06:37:45***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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08:23:12JdGordon[Saint]: you really think i still understand it?
08:37:47***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
08:43:35[Saint]I had my doubts, indeed, but I thought it was a possibility.
08:44:03[Saint]The ambiguity described above is really less of a playlist catalog thing and more a general Rb playlist thing.
08:44:51[Saint]The fucky aspect of the playlistviewer is the magic that defines whether or not a playlist ever actually appears there or not. It's like a dice roll dictates it.
08:45:00[Saint]I was never really sure what it did.
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10:37:48***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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11:04:08lebellium_z3cddubs: I
11:04:27lebellium_z3cIs there the -r in the command you run!
11:04:47lebellium_z3cI bet you didn't read the instructions carefully
11:10:43 Join sony_a15 [0] (18854eee@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
11:11:29sony_a15I want to thank you to who prepared "Sony NW/NWZ series: destination and sounds pressure tool"
11:11:53sony_a15and I also add that it worked for my NWZ-A15 model properly
11:12:36lebellium_z3cPamaury is the developer. He's not here yet but he may read the logs and your kind message
11:13:11lebellium_z3cFor sure it worked on A10. It was tested on mine :)
11:13:34lebellium_z3cWhich destination code did you use?
11:16:14sony_a15I used the example exactly "scsitool-nwz-vX.exe H: dest_tool set dest_tool set E2 off" then I checked from service menu. It's OK.
11:16:58lebellium_z3cOk. It was CEW2 originally?
11:17:17sony_a15unfortunately :) EU
11:17:31lebellium_z3cDo you feel a huge volume difference?
11:18:10lebellium_z3cBecause it was hard me to test on my PC speakers. I don't have any demanding headphone
11:21:42sony_a15I haven't tested yet, I just did it but it is necessary for me because I use sennheiser headphones. It is hard to feed it. Now, Im going to test it and write the result :(
11:22:33sony_a15Especially, It was very hard to listen high res files.
11:23:32lebellium_z3cOk. Make sure you factory reset the device
11:24:24[Saint]In what world does SPL have a governance on 'high res' (lol) audio?
11:24:56[Saint](more so than any other audio, I mean)
11:25:02 Join lebellium [0] (
11:25:37[Saint]unless you're a lower level mammal, 16/44.1~48 is all you'll ever hear the benefit of.
11:26:19[Saint]if you're a male over 30 you won't even make use of the available headroom in that.
11:26:59[Saint]15 bits is ample for reproducing the human audible spectrum.
11:28:00sony_a15Do you experience random resets during playing music on A10, too? It occurs less when I upgraded firmware to 1.21 but still it occur when I listening flacs...
11:29:18sony_a15@Saint you get me wrong. I mean 320 kbps files are much louder than flac files.
11:29:24 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
11:29:35lebelliumsony_a15: no, but I probably don't use the A10 enough to experience that
11:29:49lebelliumhere is the man :
11:30:00 Quit lebellium_z3c (Quit: Bye)
11:30:13[Saint]sony_a15: well, flac has no replaygain concept - likely that you're bouncing off.
11:30:41sony_a15thank you for "Sony NW/NWZ series: destination and sounds pressure tool"
11:30:45[Saint]sorry, I wouldn't consider either as high res. I did misinterpret indeed.
11:30:49sony_a15it is very helpful
11:31:04pamaurythanks :) is it working for you ?
11:31:26sony_a15yes, I use A15 model and it worked perfectly
11:31:58pamaurygood :)
11:32:16[Saint]well, I guess I should say that flac doesn't have a standardized (AFAIK) replaygain.
11:32:28[Saint]iirc it uses the wild west of vorbistags.
11:32:36pamauryI didn"t expect that many people would be using this tool
11:33:44lebellium[Saint]: is it not just that "high res" files (so FLAC 24/96 and more) are supposed to be demos of how it should be mixed and mastered and not following the loudness war?
11:35:00lebelliumpamaury: you definitely don't follow head-fi (I neither but I know it^^). There are hundreds people owning very expensive DAPs and demanding headphones
11:35:22CtcpIgnored 4 channel CTCP requests in 1 day and 0 hours at the last flood
11:35:22*pamaury suspects that high impendance headphone + flac recorded at "low" volume = low volume on Sony's
11:35:41sony_a15but this walkman gives me cancer. Its random reset occurs so many times.
11:36:01lebelliumsony_a15: the fix will be rockbox :)
11:36:02[Saint]in my experience it is not a given at all that masters don't follow the loudness wars.
11:36:09[Saint]increasingly less so, in fact.
11:37:06[Saint]and consumers playing masters on production players is a whole other kettle of fish that has no reason to happen anyway.
11:37:38lebelliumI'm not sure we should debate that here :P
11:38:00[Saint]There would need to be another side of the story for it to be a debate. ;)
11:38:07sony_a15hmm, does rockbox have a version for A15, I couldn't see on the site. @lebellium
11:38:09[Saint]Facts are facts. :p
11:38:23lebelliumsony_a15: "will be" hopefully. Pamaury is the man
11:41:03pamaurysony_a15: the port is underway, it is not released because it is not ready (can't play audio right now)
11:41:38sony_a15Then, I ll be checking regularly :) . I miss my ipod classic days but enforcing ALAC is very ennoying.
11:41:51lebelliumpamaury: why "scsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -s nw-a30 E: dest_tool get_dnk_nvp kas" gives the get help command result?!
11:44:02pamaurylebellium: you have to remove dest_tool :-p
11:44:23pamauryscsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -s nw-a30 E: get_dnk_nvp kas
11:45:12pamaurysony_a15: before leaving, could you run a command for me ?
11:46:09pamaurysony_a15: scsitool-nwz-v3.exe E: get_dnk_nvp kas
11:46:19pamaury(replace E: with the drive of your player)
11:48:02lebelliumpamaury: I already did that for you
11:48:10sony_a15I did too
11:48:24sony_a15kas: "a lot of numbers"
11:48:29sony_a15need a screenshot?
11:49:10pamaurylebellium: oh? I forgot :-/ Too many players
11:49:18lebelliumhere is the result
11:49:32pamaurysony_a15: no need, lebellium reminded me of the result already
11:49:55lebelliumpamaury is a bit lost. He doesn't have enough Sony players :D
11:51:30sony_a15by the way, the difference after removing sound cap is quite drastic. Sennheiser becomes a small speaker at the top level.
11:52:17lebelliumso the tests on my PC speakers are quite useless. I need to find a demanding headphone
11:52:53pamaurylebellium: by the way, I think there is a need (low priority) to review the codenames and series names in;a=blob;f=utils/nwztools/database/series.txt;h=f33f40311e35897b9467095963121c61361bf34f;hb=077e206
11:52:58lebelliumpamaury: reading head-fi, there are still users forgetting to reset the settings. Why can't people just READ instructions....
11:53:23pamauryfor example I called the A10 series NWZ-A10 series, but it also has some NW-A1x in it, so should it be NWZ-A10 or NW-A10 ?
11:53:33lebelliumI'll check
11:53:35pamaurylebellium: and I wrote in BIG RED!!
11:54:12pamaurylebellium:;a=blob;f=utils/nwztools/database/models.txt;h=a8ac46bfc2fccc788f5581daaf7e49c7c90eb6f5;hb=077e206 is correct, straight out of Sony's code
11:55:07pamaurylebellium: I will make the "reset your player" bigger on the wiki if I can
11:58:24pamaurylebellium: done
11:58:30pamaurynow it's impossible to miss!
11:58:38lebelliumregarding A10, the Japanese version is NW-A10 (I checked on amazon Japan), the worldwide version is NWZ
11:59:21pamauryI think my convention was to use NWZ if there is at least one NWZ player in the list
11:59:23lebelliumthe japanese version seems to have NC (so what's the difference with A20?!)
11:59:37pamauryexcept there are bugs ;)
11:59:44pamaurylike nwz-a20
11:59:57lebelliumyeah, this one definitely doesn't exist
12:00:02lebelliumit's NW-A20 worldwide
12:02:05pamaurydid anyone with a A20 give us the kas ?
12:03:00lebelliumnot yet. But you can ask the user who sent you an email
12:03:33sony_a15A little off-topic, why does sony insist on using weird data cables. Is it hard to use standard usb cables.
12:03:36lebelliumI confirm the NW-A10 and NWZ-A10 firmware is different
12:04:06lebelliumsony_a15: to have a line-out
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12:07:34lebelliumpamaury: aha just saw your edit on wiki :D
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12:10:49fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 1bd8207, 255 builds, 17 clients.
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12:13:32lebelliumpamaury: is it normal that the kas extracted from the device differs from your theoritical kas?
12:15:31 Quit sony_a15 (Quit: Page closed)
12:15:53pamaurylebellium: yes
12:15:59pamaurythere isn't a unique kas
12:16:23lebelliumwhat does it depend on? storage capacity?
12:16:45pamauryafaik, the kas is only used for encryption and thus there is discernible difference between those but I still prefer to have the real one. No it only depends on the series
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12:17:49lebelliumfor fun I tried "get" on the old S610
12:18:01lebellium"this device doesn't have node 'shp'"
12:18:33pamauryouch, those are very old, one of the first generation, I don't aim at supporting those
12:18:58lebelliumyes, you told me they use an even older linux kernel
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12:19:24pamauryyeah, it's really too old
12:19:32pamauryE450 is as far as I'm ready to go back basically
12:19:49pamaurymaybe A840, that would need some checking
12:20:41lebelliumplease :P
12:21:02pamauryS630 is definitely too old. A850 is like E450, so should be supported
12:21:06lebellium2010. like yesterday
12:21:45pamauryNW-S740,NW-S640,NW-A840 looks like it could be supported
12:22:47lebelliumpamaury: finally got it!
12:22:59lebelliumSeries: NW-A30 Series
12:23:02lebellium63 34 30 64 39 31 65 37 65 66 66 66 33 65 33 61 c40d91e7efff3e3a
12:23:04lebellium61 35 63 38 38 33 31 64 64 38 35 35 32 36 66 65 a5c8831dd85526fe
12:23:05lebellium34 39 37 32 30 38 36 32 38 33 34 31 39 63 38 63 4972086283419c8c
12:23:07lebellium64 38 66 61 33 62 37 64 63 64 33 39 d8fa3b7dcd39
12:23:18lebelliumSeries: NW-A30 Series
12:23:21lebellium04 00 00 22 20 31 36 47 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ..." 16G........
12:23:22lebellium00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
12:23:24lebellium00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
12:23:25lebellium00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ............
12:24:43pamauryhum, so A30 is like WM1, uses a different encryption
12:25:52pamaurylebellium: do you remember if/when we extracted the wm1 kas ?
12:26:09pamaurylebellium: which model is it exactly ?
12:26:14pamauryA35 ? A31 ?
12:26:34lebelliumJapanese A35 (you can see 16G in the mid)
12:27:05lebelliumyes we got the WM1 kas. I try to find the logs
12:27:51pamauryso just NW-A35 ? (ie there is no fancy NW-A35HKIHATESONY)
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12:28:23lebelliumhere is the log for WM1 kas
12:29:02pamauryah you beat me to it
12:29:02lebelliumpamaury: I don't know if it's NW-A35 or NW-A35HN
12:29:02johnb2Any major advantageof the A850 vs. E585 except for storage?
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12:30:14lebelliumjohnb2: I have the 16GB version for both. The only advantage of my A850 is that it's pink, japanese, very rare and only cost me €20 :P
12:31:13johnb2So it's for collectors ;-)
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12:31:33lebelliumwhich I am
12:31:49johnb2I figured that in the meantime ...
12:32:03b-thi - have an issue with one of my clips (fat is corrupt message) tried to repair the fs with "sudo dosfsck -w -r -l -a -v -t /dev/sdb" but it didn't help. Any other ideas?
12:32:31johnb2Can you recommend a forum / site which properly explains the features of the OF?
12:32:35lebelliumpamaury: according to the A20 service manual (I would assume it also applies to A30), A20HN is a A20 with different supplied headphones
12:32:46lebellium• NW-A25 is not supplied headphones.
12:32:48lebellium• NW-A25HN/A26HN/A27HN (except CEW) are supplied Headphones (MDR-NW750N).
12:32:49lebellium• NW-A25HN/A27HN (CEW) are supplied Headphones (MDR-NW750NE).
12:33:00b-tthe checkdsk feature in gparted didn't help as well..
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12:34:45lebelliumjohnb2: I would suggest to compare the user manuals of the models you're interested in?
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12:37:23johnb2Well, I already orderee an E585 on amazon last week, but the UM I find on the Sony website only give basic information. I wanted to read up something in advance, especially on the different sound effects.
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12:39:06lebelliumokay. I won't help you much. I tried the different settings on my E580 then went back to "flat" sound as I do on any player. Managing different EQ and sound effects on 100 players is kinda difficult...
12:43:04pamauryso I think the sony database is getting close to complete now. I "just" need to finish that port ;)
12:43:43lebelliumpamaury: can you later release a new scsitool including A30 so that we can remove -s from the command?
12:44:12pamauryalthough -s will still be necessary for other A30 players (if there are any)
12:44:41lebelliumwell, I think there is only one
12:44:47pamauryone thing I could do is add detection of the series based on MID, even when the full MID is not known
12:45:04lebelliumHN is just different packaging (headphone supplied), I think the firmware is the same for all
12:45:10lebelliumthat would make sense at least
12:46:10lebelliumpamaury: oh it's base on the full MID? WOuld that mean that currently WM1Z wouldn't work either?
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12:46:34pamauryno, because we don't know the MID of WM1Z
12:46:42pamaurybut MID seem to follow a pattern
12:46:48pamaurythe top 8-bit is the series I think
12:47:10lebelliumthe service manual doesn't give you the full MID for both WM1A and WM1A?
12:47:17pamauryI didn't check
12:47:20lebelliumyou should
12:47:27lebelliumit's very interesting and cleare
12:47:49lebelliumpage 8
12:48:22pamauryactually I added the WM1Z Id already
12:48:27pamauryI just forgot about it :-p
12:48:51pamauryWM1A and WM1Z appear as two different series though
12:48:57pamaury(based on MID)
12:49:34lebelliumthat makes sense indeed
12:50:01pamauryso yeah, I might stick with full MID
12:50:06lebelliumgive the price difference, I expect another difference as the storage capacity (128G vs 256G)
12:50:46lebelliumThey are 2 different series but with only one model in each
12:50:51lebelliumthat's quite confusing
12:51:03pamaurythat's Sony
12:51:10pamaurymaybe they plan to release more
12:51:19pamaurywhat's the difference between WM1A and WM1Z ?
12:52:40lebelliumZ is made of gold and cost €3000 :D
12:52:57pamaurya :)
12:53:08lebelliuminternal components
12:54:48lebelliumthe only obvious difference is the storage capacity but as the Z costs twice as much as the A, I can believe Sony put some golden components in it. If it does really improve the sound or not is another story
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12:56:58pamaurylebellium: of course it does, one need gold components to interface a golden ear :D
12:58:55lebelliumpamaury: if you look at this page though, it looks like Sony consider them as the same series, just as 2 different models based on storage capacity
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13:06:05b-thmm... might try
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13:08:53chrisjjJdGordon, nice to see you here. You can perhaps answer something I've wondered about. Why did you rename Main Menu 'Playlists' to 'Playlist Catalogue'? I've read your;a=commit;h=97a4c1ef and am none the wiser.
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13:11:45chrisjjWe discussed this a few years back, at which time you couldn't recall.
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13:14:18madkpamaury: random question, what exactly is the status of rockbox port for Fiio X1? I've read all the forum posts by you and others, and the wiki page detailing the hardware and such. I see that you've got code running on it, but there's not much info on how exactly you did that
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13:14:53madkI'm totally new to rockbox but have some embedded experience. I'd like to at least try to work on this but I'm confused as to where to go
13:14:58JdGordchrisjj: I'm not here. And I don't really remember
13:15:05chrisjjOK, thanks.
13:15:11JdGordI think I had ideas of hooking the database viewer into it
13:15:15JdGordBut yeah dunno
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13:19:44chrisjjI don't know why its claimed here that the playlist catalogue has fucky magic to determine whether a playlist appears there. Every time I use PC to create a playlist, it appears in PC. But a new user can fall foul of this: . Fancy giving it a look?
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13:21:38[Saint]If JdGord fancied giving anything a look you wouldn't have only just met the man.
13:21:56chrisjjI haven't only just met the man.
13:22:28JdGordI basically have no time anymore
13:22:33[Saint]well, at the very least you haven't talked to him in years.
13:22:34chrisjjOK, thanks.
13:22:53JdGordYeah I've been away for about 2 years :(
13:23:00JdGordStupid work blocking irc
13:23:09JdGordAnd not so stupid kid taking home time
13:24:17[Saint]and what I mean by fucky magic for the playlist viewer is the magic that determines if a playlist created on the device ends up in the playlistviewer seems to be determined by magic.
13:24:23[Saint]or random die.
13:24:35[Saint]magic everywhere.
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13:25:32[Saint]half the time they end up folder-local, half the time they end up in the playlistviewer.
13:25:39[Saint]with no obvious rhyme or reason to it.
13:28:15pamaurymadk: port in progress, but right now stalled because I'm working on NWZ ports.
13:28:52pamauryprogress depends on my amount of free time basically
13:31:01ddubsHello, I am attempting to install the Sony Nw/NWZ series;: destination and sounds pressure tool on a NW-WM1A but I get the error code "Device didn't send the expected amount of data."
13:31:29lebelliumddubs: I already replied to you, did you put the "-r" command?
13:31:51pamauryddubs: use:
13:31:51pamauryscsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -m nw-wm1 dest_tool get
13:32:01pamauryscsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -m nw-wm1 H: dest_tool get
13:32:04pamaury(notice the -r)
13:32:06ddubsOh I apologize
13:32:15ddubslet me attempt that now
13:32:22[Saint]why the shit has this blossomed 3000% in the last ~48h?
13:32:26lebelliumjust read carefully the instructions on the wiki
13:32:36pamaurylebellium: I wonder if I should enable relaxed by default
13:32:39lebelliumwe spent much time to write them, we'd like people to read carefully
13:32:40pamauryfor dest_tool
13:33:11lebelliumpamaury: any consequence for the other models not needing it?
13:34:21pamaurynot that I know. What relaxed mode does is that it tells the device "Please give me 4096 bytes of this node" and the device says "Ok, here are 32 bytes of this node" and then the code says "Fine, this node must 32-byte in length"
13:34:41pamauryIn non-relaxed mode, the code expects the node to be say 32-byte and complains if the device doesn't agree
13:36:10lebellium[Saint]: because the link to the wiki was posted on head-fi, the big forum. And in the wiki instructions, we asked people to come here when getting an error message. Which they wouldn't have if they read carefully the instructions
13:38:20ddubsThank you lebellium and pamaury, after following your instructions
13:38:39ddubsI was able to apply the tool correctly!
13:38:43pamaurygood :)
13:39:01ddubsWill I need to perform a factory reset on my device?
13:39:05pamauryddubs: yes
13:39:27madkpamaury: thanks and good luck :)
13:39:44lebelliumpamaury: then maybe add "-r" for all models. If there is a new one, it still won't work because of the missing -s and force the user to come here, what we want
13:40:58pamaurylebellium: I think I will make the code use -r permanently and add a warning if the device returns an unexpected amount of data
13:41:48lebelliumthat would only happen if the device returns more thgan 4096 bytes, right?
13:42:33pamauryit cannot. If the node is >4096 and I ask for 4096, it returns 4096
13:42:51pamauryin practice, all nodes are <=4096 by design, except for a select few (basically images)
13:43:02pamaurywhich is why having a table of expected size is still useful
13:43:32pamauryactually it would be useful to ask someone with wm1a to send us the length of shp on the wm1a
13:43:34pamauryddubs: still here ?
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13:45:04pamaurywe need a wm1a/z user to run:
13:45:04pamauryscsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -m nw-wm1 H: get_dnk_nvp shp
13:45:17chrisjjAnyone else fancy giving a try? I'll do the documentation :-)
13:45:27lebelliumpamaury: ok I ask for that on my forum
13:45:54pamaurychrisjj: did you start benchmarking with mem dfs ?
13:46:20chrisjjNo. Because I haven't received it yet :)
13:46:28pamauryhuh ?
13:46:38pamauryI sent you the link yesterdau
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13:47:52lebelliumpamaury: are you sure it's -m and not -s? I don't find the signification of -m in scsitool.c
13:48:08pamaurylebellium: yes you are right
13:48:16pamaurym is the new s
13:48:20[Saint][20170108135022] with NZDT offset, if you were wondering, chrisjj
13:48:29[Saint](was when it was sent intially)
13:55:28chrisjjpamaury: sorry, I missed your send yesterday, Got it now.
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13:58:09chrisjjOn this be68b6a7bM-170108, there are other diffs too e.g. in codecs and RAM usage, so perhaps significant ones I can't see. If we want a clean A/B test, would you like to send me a build having /just/ the memDFS change?
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14:03:46pamaurychrisjj: ?
14:04:20pamauryit's be68b6a7b with just mem dfs
14:17:57chrisjjpamaury: Did I miss a link to be68b6a7b? 'Cos I don't see it for ZEN on
14:19:40pamauryit's a commit number
14:20:02pamauryI just took the trunk version fro yesterday and enabled mem dfs and rebuilt
14:20:27pamauryyou don't need to benchmark the same exact version as last time, nothing has change on the ZEN since then
14:25:23chrisjjSo 'the trunk version fro yesterday' is the lcd_fix 45697a0bf-161212 version unchanged?
14:25:23chrisjjThe version I benchmarked last time is lcd_fix 45697a0bf-161212.
14:26:08pamaurylcd_fix 45697a0bf-161212 is 45697a0bf + lcd fix
14:26:16pamaurybut lcd fix doesn't change battery life
14:26:31pamauryand there is no difference on the ZEN between 45697a0bf and be68b6a7b
14:27:12pamaurythus the only difference, battery-wise, between be68b6a7b_memdfs and lcd_fix 45697a0bf is mem dfs
14:27:47chrisjj'there is no difference on the ZEN between 45697a0bf and be68b6a7b' How come I see differences in codecs and RAM usage?
14:36:17chrisjjCodecs and other files:, Ram usage and other items:
14:37:43pamaurychrisjj: we constantly fix code here and there, this result is minor RAM changes
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14:38:20chrisjjUnderstood, which is why 'nothing has change on the ZEN since then' seems very unlikely to me.
14:44:56pixelmait's just not ZEN-specific
14:47:27pamauryand it doesn't influence the battery life
14:50:17chrisjjWe hope.
14:51:16chrisjjSince we're doing this for science, let's make it good science. For A/B test of memDFS we need 'A' be68b6a7b and 'B' be68b6a7b+memDFS.
14:51:20chrisjjWe've got B.
14:53:17pamauryok so I suggest you start with be68b6a7b+memDFS. and I'll send you be68b6a7b when it's done
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15:31:28lebelliumCraftyClown: could you run a command on your WM1?
15:34:31CraftyClownOf course. What do you need?
15:34:49lebelliumscsitool-nwz-v3.exe -r -s nw-wm1 H: get_dnk_nvp shp
15:36:18CraftyClownWhat should that do?
15:36:27lebelliumpamaury will tell you
15:37:58pamauryCraftyClown: it shuld print a lot of numbers, can you copy-paste them here ?
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15:42:55CraftyClownSeries: NW-WM1 Series shp: 06 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ............
15:45:51pamauryso the shp node is smaller on the WM1 than on previous series indeed
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15:52:49johnb2Bilgus: regarding the manual for g#1417 if have uploaded three files to . The third one is advanced_topics/main.tex. I have tried to cast your description at,51589.0.html into Latex. Can you (and others) please cross-read and then do the git/gerrit stuff to include?
15:52:50fs-bluebotGerrit review #1417 at : Selective Backlight/Advanced Softlock - Selective actions based on context by William Wilgus
15:53:43johnb2As I cannot build the manual in my dev env, I have not been able to see the resulting doc ;-) So there surely are some things to be corrected still.
15:54:00CraftyClownpamaury: Anything else you'd like me to check whilst I'm here?
15:54:20johnb2If someone else could create the doc for review that would be great.
15:55:04johnb2Bilgus: I was wondering whether "Unmapped Buttons" ought to be renamed to "Unmapped Keys"...
15:55:52pamauryCraftyClown: I think not. Thanks for your help :)
15:57:31CraftyClownpamaury: No problem at all. Thank you for all your hard work :)
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16:02:43lebelliumpamaury: I didn't notice before but on A10/A20, "E2" with "get"/"set" is "E1" in test mode...
16:02:58pamauryI know, some user told me that
16:03:21lebelliumI didn't believe Sony could be more messy than Samsung
16:04:45johnb2TorC: please see above
16:06:21pamaurylebellium: I will have very soon a new version of the tool without relaxed mode
16:06:43pamauryI'll ask you to test it before we update the wiki
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16:07:24lebelliumpamaury: ok
16:10:39pamauryCraftyClown: actually, you can still help ;)
16:10:43pamaury(last time I promise)
16:11:01CraftyClownHa ha, no problem at all
16:11:11pamauryCraftyClown: could you download
16:11:52pamaury(this is v4)
16:11:52pamauryand run:
16:11:52pamauryscsitool-nwz-v4.exe H: get_dnk_nvp kas
16:11:52DBUGEnqueued KICK pamaury
16:11:52pamauryscsitool-nwz-v4.exe H: get_dnk_nvp kas 100
16:11:52pamauryscsitool-nwz-v4.exe H: get_dnk_nvp shp
16:13:06CraftyClownall 3 lines?
16:13:18pamauryyes, one after the other
16:13:24pamauryand copy-paste the result of all three
16:15:00CraftyClownC:\WINDOWS\system32>scsitool-nwz-v4.exe F: get_dnk_nvp kas Model: NW-WM1A Series: NW-WM1 Series kas (node 11,key and signature): 65 38 64 31 37 31 61 35 64 39 32 66 33 35 65 65 e8d171a5d92f35ee 64 39 36 35 38 63 30 33 66 62 39 66 38 36 61 31 d9658c03fb9f86a1 36 39 35 39 31 36 35 39 38 35 31 66 64 37 63 34 69591659851fd7c4 39 35 32 35 66 35 38 37 61 37 30 62 9525f587a70b
16:15:25CraftyClownC:\WINDOWS\system32>scsitool-nwz-v4.exe F: get_dnk_nvp kas 100 Model: NW-WM1A Series: NW-WM1 Series kas (node 11,key and signature): 65 38 64 31 37 31 61 35 64 39 32 66 33 35 65 65 e8d171a5d92f35ee 64 39 36 35 38 63 30 33 66 62 39 66 38 36 61 31 d9658c03fb9f86a1 36 39 35 39 31 36 35 39 38 35 31 66 64 37 63 34 69591659851fd7c4 39 35 32 35 66 35 38 37 61 37 30 62 9525f587a70b
16:15:55CraftyClownC:\WINDOWS\system32>scsitool-nwz-v4.exe F: get_dnk_nvp shp Model: NW-WM1A Series: NW-WM1 Series shp (node 12,ship information): 06 02 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ............
16:16:03pamauryok great, it seems to work
16:16:15pamaurylebellium: I think we can update instructions with v4 and get rid of relaxed mode
16:16:30pamauryI will do that
16:17:03lebelliumI just try it on my E580
16:19:22lebelliumseems to work
16:19:34lebelliumI tried TW and default language is not english ahah
16:29:01chrisjjpamaury, OK will do.
16:31:27pamaurylebellium: I updated the wiki, tell me if you spot anything wrong
16:33:42fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 1895af8, 255 builds, 17 clients.
16:37:15lebelliumpamaury: it's ok
16:37:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
16:38:46chrisjjjhMikeS: Re 'Drive-relative paths of the form "c:foo" (no separator after ':') will be treated as purely relative.' I suggest it worth recording that this is incompatible with Windows.
16:39:31chrisjjPS Good to hear no restore of Volume substitution on fully-qualified UNIX/RB paths.
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16:54:54fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 577 seconds.
16:54:55fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 18b4bf2 result: All green
17:01:49lebelliumCraftyClown: looks like the news didn't go outside the WM1 thread. I'm reading the ZX100 thread and the poor EU owners don't seem to know they no longer need to buy an US or Asian model
17:03:04 Join Initiate|2 [0] (
17:14:11CraftyClownlebellium: Let me go and spread the good word then :)
17:19:22Initiate|2I'm having a hardware issue with Sansa's e200v2 scrollwheel. Physically the wheel itself seems to scroll fine, but the device wildly takes the input in opposite direction. Same happens on Sansa's OF, so it's hardware. I've checked RB and Sansa forums, some people had the same problem, and suggested either cleaning the wheel with compressed air or disassembling it(...)
17:20:33Initiate|2Tried the former, didn't work. The latter solution linked to a tutorial, which was good but it was intended for the v1 version which is completely different hardware. I would try disassembling the wheel but I've no idea how as I can't find instructions for that for v2 models.
17:21:18 Quit CraftyClown (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
17:21:26Initiate|2So if someone knows of a disassembly tutorial for a v2, I'd appreciate linking me to it.
17:23:29 Quit johnb2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
17:24:23Initiate|2Also, Rockbox website DID link to an album showcasing a disassembled v2. I did check it, but it did not contain instructions for the disassembly itself.
17:28:57lebelliumpamaury: mutnai has the S750 and S760, the interesting ones we didn't find second-handed yet. To remember for the potential rockbox port :)
17:36:32Initiate|2Solved. I've figured out how to pry the faceplate and take the wheel out. Thanks anyway. For creating a FOSS firmware as well, I suppose.
17:37:24[Saint]you basically have to hope it's a tiny bit of grit in there.
17:37:43Initiate|2I am spraying it with compressed air right now.
17:37:44[Saint]if the actual contacts are bent in the wheel structure you're pretty much fucked.
17:37:54[Saint]and these are impossible to find second hand.
17:37:54 Join girafe [0] (
17:38:08Initiate|2I did not apply any violence to the player before it broke as far as I remember
17:38:14[Saint]rarer than hens teeth.
17:38:27Initiate|2If the airstream won't do the trick, the tutorial suggested applying alcohol
17:38:31Initiate|2Or something along the lines.
17:41:01Initiate|2People on Sansa forums claimed the solution worked for them, but v1 had a different wheel so I may not be as lucky.
17:44:00pamaurylebellium: is it you who has a A840 or I am confused ?
17:44:29lebelliumI have the Japanese A850 (=A840 + NC)
17:44:32lebelliumI don't have the A840
17:44:49Initiate|2Aaaaand nope.
17:45:02Initiate|2Seems smoother now but still going in wrong direction.
17:45:24Initiate|2I'll have to apply some liquid then. Alcohol or something like that maybe.
17:47:44 Join johnb2 [0] (
17:52:26 Quit alexweissman (Remote host closed the connection)
18:04:18Initiate|2Cleaned the wheel, it's even smoother now, but still didn't do the trick. Something's up with the metal base, trying to work it out right now.
18:04:28__builtinHey, can someone test the new control scheme for sgt-untangle? (in latest HEAD)
18:05:24__builtinI'm mainly after how intuitive it is
18:05:52 Quit johnb2 (Quit: Nettalk6 -
18:14:37Initiate|2Alright, it's something with the base. Some other tutorial (without pictures) on anythingbutipod suggested prying the base with "ALPS" on it from underneath. Not sure if it applies to v2 as well. I'm probably centimeters from bricking my DAP now.
18:17:54Initiate|2The disassembly pic gallery on v2 did not show the base taken off... Not sure if it supposed to come off on those models.
18:34:44 Join CraftyClown [0] (516de8be@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
18:37:58***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
18:38:27Initiate|2Alright, fixed for most of the part. The wheel *almost* does not jump anymore after cleaning the base off, but it may get better later on. Won't risk bricking my DAP for now and I'll see how it develops.
18:40:20 Nick [Saint] is now known as ScottKnowles (~sinner@rockbox/staff/saint)
18:40:20DBUGEnqueued KICK ScottKnowles
18:41:47Initiate|2Still pretty jumpy again. At this point I'd probably have to pry off the base. Tried that but couldn't do it. Not sure if it's taken apart easily.
18:42:57Initiate|2Guess I'll idle here for 2 hours or so to see if some v2 owner can give a tip. If not then I'll go for a forums post or ask on Sansa forums.
18:44:35 Nick ScottKnowles is now known as [Saint] (~sinner@rockbox/staff/saint)
18:44:35DBUGEnqueued KICK [Saint]
18:47:04[Saint]You're overwhelming confident about the frequency of V2 owners.
18:47:33Initiate|2I'm trying my luck.
18:47:48[Saint]The amount of people who own these that aren't using them as museam pieces is very few and far metween.
18:47:51Initiate|2As it's a stable port, I assume there is at least a few.
18:48:00[Saint]can go a year without ever seeing anyone.
18:48:19[Saint]god my typing is terrible today. uuuugh.
18:48:32Initiate|2I'm aware v1 is superior, honestly I'd replace my v2 with it if I could
18:48:38Initiate|2But it's kinda hard to get an e200 today
18:49:05[Saint]even the v1, e200s in general are pretty rare.
18:49:09[Saint]functional ones at least.
18:49:42[Saint]the ones that are functional are generally carefully regarded as museum pieces because if they break...that's basically it.
18:50:01[Saint]it's not like you're gonna find parts for it.
18:50:05Initiate|2Could stick with the Fuze as well, probably. I saw an affordable offer but was turned down by the seller.
18:50:27Initiate|2The only offer in my area right now is way too overpriced
18:50:33Initiate|2That's probably because the seller knows what Rockbox is.
18:50:55[Saint]even without rockbox they're in demand from collectors.
18:52:05 Quit CraftyClown (Quit: Page closed)
18:52:05Initiate|2Well, what I'm after is a stable device that supports SD cards. Only SanDisk devices qualify, and I'm not really into Sansa Zip models.
18:52:17Initiate|2Leaving me with a rather narrow selection.
18:52:52Initiate|2I meant, Sansa Clip
18:53:34 Join johnb2 [0] (
18:53:59johnb2Initiate|2 where do you live?
18:54:11Initiate|2johnb2: Eastern Europe
18:54:44[Saint]Initiate|2: if you're thinking of 'stable' as in from our ports list, those qualifications are basically meaningless.
18:54:58[Saint]stable/unstable/unusable basically means nothing these days for the large part.
18:55:47johnb2I have an clip+ 8GB up at Ebay (Germany) right now, but shipping costs might get out of scale ...
18:56:15johnb2for you
18:56:25Initiate|2Are you implying that these designations are not being maintained enough to use them as a reference, or that the unusable/unstable devices have progressed so well most of them are on the "just werks" stage?
18:58:26Initiate|2johnb2: I saw Clip offers in my area but as I said I'm not interested in Clip models. And no, it's not about Doom.
18:58:56[Saint]Initiate|2: they've never really actually implied stability
18:59:10[Saint]the important qualifiers are listed next to those designations.
18:59:27[Saint]'stable' basically just means 'has a manual, and the installer'
18:59:34[Saint]it doesn't actually mean it's stable.
18:59:43[Saint]bugs are bugs and happen everywhere.
18:59:58Initiate|2Saint: As far as I remember, it implied at least the "MOST features work as expected"
19:00:10Initiate|2And by that sentence I do not mean "no bugs"
19:00:29johnb2Sorry, I was typing when you changed zip to clip ,-)
19:01:35[Saint]Initiate|2: the guts of it is, it's complicated, basically. There's unstable and unusable classed targets that are arguably more stable in the literal sense than stable release targets.
19:02:00[Saint]If I had my way I'd get rid of those designations altogether.
19:02:11Initiate|2[Saint]: Oh. That puts the situation in a completely new light then.
19:02:46Initiate|2Yes, it doesn't take a genius to understand potential RB-ported device buyers will suggest themselves with those designations
19:02:57Initiate|2That's what I did when I got the Sansa anyway.
19:04:36 Quit johnb2 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
19:05:19[Saint]ironically, if people opt for the release build odds are things will be significantly less stable for any given target, and for many of them rather less refined and efficient.
19:05:35[Saint]the releases are nearing four years old.
19:05:47Initiate|2Alright, I will take your advice about the frequency (or lack thereof) of Sansa users here and try my luck on SanDisk or Anythingbutipod forums regarding disassembly.
19:06:02[Saint]You may have some luck on our forums.
19:06:20Initiate|2I had an opposite experience. Release build has caused more trouble for my device than Stable one.
19:06:59Initiate|2Also Release seemed to have a higher consumption of RAM. I've ran out of memory trying to play module files I could play on Stable.
19:07:39[Saint]Anyone with a SanDisk target should be using the development builds unless they have a specific use case with a known fault, in which case, reporting it would be useful.
19:09:11[Saint]there's been rather a lot of optimization across the board over those years since the release.
19:09:29Initiate|2Like I said, I've opted out because I had less RAM for Demoscene music playback which I did often. There was a bug that appeared on a Release update which involved the player freezing to the point manual shutdown was impossible.
19:10:01Initiate|2I had to take out the battery to reboot the player. I don't remember the details too clearly to file a correct bug report for Gerrit or on forums or anywhere
19:10:32[Saint]that is very curious.
19:10:44[Saint]you should have more RAM available with the new buffering system.
19:10:58Initiate|2I did not check RAM usage and compare it.
19:11:15Initiate|2The only thing I can tell you is that I've ran out of RAM on Release builds
19:11:22Initiate|2While I had enough of it on Stable.
19:11:38[Saint]release == stable
19:11:51Initiate|2I meant, development builds
19:11:59Initiate|2Cutting edge, them Arch Linux guys and so on.
19:12:06[Saint]it's just that stable isn't really a concept that implies stability.
19:12:10[Saint]ah, right.
19:12:43[Saint]curious indeed. generally speaking this shouldn't be the case.
19:13:00Initiate|2I'm aware of that. I assumed Rockbox's definition of stability is at least SIMILAR to Debian's
19:13:15[Saint]except for a tiny subset of players, I don't recommend the release builds to anyone.
19:13:25Initiate|2That means, you have stable, which is really old, but the code has been reviewed so much it just works
19:13:39Initiate|2And the testing/dev which has more features and bugfixes but it's a bit of unknown territory
19:13:43[Saint]these days you'd only really want the release for the very esoteric space constrained devices.
19:13:46[Saint]like the archoses.
19:14:50Initiate|2Let's just say that I had a devbuild. I could play some mod files on it. Then I've updated. I could play less mod files. Then I reverted to release. I could play more mod files than on the two former.
19:14:50[Saint]the problem with the naming is a tough one. not sure how to tackle it.
19:15:09[Saint]I think ideally I'd rather just have release and development builds, and drop the qualifiers entirely.
19:15:13 Quit alucryd (Remote host closed the connection)
19:15:16[Saint]makes more sense at this stage.
19:15:51[Saint]that's a very interesting regression indeed, with no immediately obvious cause.
19:16:18[Saint]mod isn't the best tested use case though I imagine.
19:16:25 Join alucryd [0] (~quassel@archlinux/developer/alucryd)
19:16:25Initiate|2Well, this is one of those "I wish I had knowledge to join in and help" moments. Really, RB is an awesome FOSS project, and I wanted to get into coding for a long time, but with virtually no experience...
19:16:43Initiate|2They say C is a hard language, embedded C may be even worse.
19:16:49[Saint]None of us had experience until we did. :)
19:17:15Initiate|2Most gurus agree larval stage would-be hackers should start with Python
19:17:36Initiate|2So Python -> C -> Embedded C... Well, we may talk in... six years?
19:18:04[Saint]perhaps it is a sign of age, but I tend to think people should learn on a language that doesn't do as much hand holding.
19:18:17[Saint]then the abstracted languages seem a breeze later.
19:19:21[Saint]it also depends on how much time you have available I guess.
19:19:50[Saint]there's been a couple of recent additions that went from 0 to high-level developer in the scope of months.
19:20:05CtcpIgnored 3 channel CTCP requests in 2 hours and 32 minutes at the last flood
19:20:05*[Saint] looks in __builtin's direction
19:20:22Initiate|2Maybe... In theory I feel doing things the hard way makes us learn more, but sometimes taking a hard start is *really* discouraging
19:20:34*__builtin waves
19:20:41[Saint]Yeah, you're not wrong. A supportive community helps.
19:21:33__builtinI'd say start off with C or something low-level
19:21:51Initiate|2I've listened to gurus/hackers/programmers talk and there was some consensus that some languages are more suitable for starters, others than not. Many have agreed that Python is good for starters, as it demonstrates stuff. ESR did at least.
19:22:02__builtinit really gives you a better feel as to how everything actually works, instead of just leaving you with computer being a black box
19:23:39[Saint]I tend to feel the same way. Abstracted languages well...abstract too much of the theory away.
19:24:04Initiate|2Well, C is basis for everything. C was there in Bell Labs fridge-sized computers, and it's now in everything from computers to microwaves. I'd definitely want to understand it one day, but I'd probably give up if I took it as 1st language.
19:25:06__builtin[Saint]: what do you mean by "high-level?"
19:28:59[Saint]well, you're a core contributor now.
19:32:17__builtinso not "level of abstraction"
19:33:17Initiate|2Anyway, back on topic, the device is more or less usable, I'll ask on Sansa Forums or anythingbutipod later. I'll keep an eye open for Fuze or e200v1 offers. In the meantime maybe I'll hang out around RB community from time to time.
19:33:21Initiate|2The lone Sansa dinosaur.
19:33:55Initiate|2I can report bugs and findings about devbuild on my v2 later if you want it.
19:37:38 Join johnb2 [0] (
19:39:34Initiate|2I'll see about status of unstable devices then and check if an SD-capable has no outstanding bugs enough to dissuade myself from buying it. Though with your calling the entire categorisation in question, I'm not sure just how up to date target status posted on the mainpage is.
19:40:40Initiate|2If you could provide a recommendation for a purchase among SD capable ones, I'd be most glad to hear and consider that.
19:47:13 Quit johnb2 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
20:01:07[Saint]IS cost a factor?
20:01:31 Nick Initiate|2 is now known as stabx (
20:02:10stabxIf it wasn't, I'd get myself an overpriced Fuze already.
20:02:40stabxI'm rather buying second-hand stuff rather than new and shiny anyway.
20:02:54stabxOften people don't know what they have and you can catch a good deal here and there.
20:03:11stabxMy Sansa was sold rather cheaply, for an "item of collector's value"
20:21:31stabxOn the second thought, since used stuff can sometimes go much below market price anyway, I guess it doesn't matter that much.
20:22:09stabxThe bigger the choice the better, as DAPs are getting a bit rare in the age of smartphones.
20:26:10[Saint]the hifiman players are very nice if money is not an object.
20:26:39[Saint]ibasso too.
20:26:56stabxWill have to see how they look like and work, there are no simulators for them
20:27:22stabxSome of the Creative Zen stuff seemed fine, at least at first glance.
20:29:00[Saint]yeah, the xfi-3 is very nice.
20:29:43[Saint]or the xduo x3.
20:30:49[Saint]the latter afaik doesn't have anything consumer-ready yet though.
20:31:12[Saint]might be mistaken there, not overly familiar with it.
20:31:25stabxWell, I may be able to get a used device from Sony NWZ series easily
20:31:32stabxI know personally someone who does have one
20:31:43stabxThough there is no Rockbox port for that particular one yet
20:32:34stabxI meant, that if they have it then maybe I can find used offers for supported ones easily.
20:32:54[Saint]you mean that very particular model of NWZ, or you think NWZ in general?
20:33:01 Join johnb2 [0] (
20:33:04[Saint]because there most certainly are NWZ ports.
20:33:09stabxNWZ in general
20:33:11stabxYes, I know.
20:33:19stabxJust not the particular one that is owned by that person
20:33:42[Saint]so that very particular model then.
20:33:42stabxI don't remember the exact model but there was no port for it as far as I remember
20:34:24 Join Bilgus [0] (
20:35:52stabxBut that one didn't support SD cards anyway
20:38:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
20:39:29[Saint]I'm only really familiar with the E3*0
20:39:45*[Saint] summons lebellium
20:40:21[Saint]lebellium: you've a better idea of esoteric supported devices, idea for the man above?
20:41:29stabxSo far I think something from either Creative Zen or Sony NWZ families could work, they have SD support and Port status is more or less on "just werks" level
20:41:42*[Saint] nods
20:41:43stabxIf I've read that well.
20:42:07[Saint]If you're willing to drop the sdcard requirement there's some wide options.
20:42:28[Saint]you can very easily create a 1TB+ solid state iPod, for instance.
20:42:41[Saint]pisses on any sdcard capacity.
20:42:42stabxI have a pre-smart telephone with an SD Card support, an 32GB card resides on it
20:42:54stabxAbout 30GB of that space is occupied by music.
20:43:10stabxAnd yes, I dual use my Sansa and that phone when listening to music
20:43:19stabxSo yeah. I hoard stuff.
20:44:42[Saint]about $200 (including purchase price of the DAP) will convert an iPod video to 256~512GB solid state.
20:44:49stabxHm, that's interesting. Though I presume a 1TB HDD for ARM devices would cost an awful lot.
20:44:54stabxWell yeah.
20:45:35[Saint]And, not really. Youd use an SD RAID1 adapter plate.
20:46:45Bilgusjohnb2, buttons, keys? IDK why would you pick one over the other?
20:47:53stabxThat's interesting. Could be great for the future when I'm stuck innawoods with nothing to do but listen to music, but for now I'd rather make use for the 64GB SDXC I've bought specifically for that purpose.
20:48:11stabx*make use of
20:48:35johnb2I am not a native speaker, but it's "key lock", key pad, ...
20:48:46BilgusI wish apple had just put an SD card on their devices instead of being greedy
20:49:19stabxSeeing the lack of headphone jack on the new iPhones, they seem to be heading for the "removing" direction rather than "adding"
20:49:28[Saint]Bilgus: it's not really greed, it's the same path Android took, they just saw it first.
20:49:36Bilgusjohnb2, Sure sounds good to me, I've Downloaded the files I'll peruse them the next few days
20:49:42[Saint]SD is a fucking terrible storage medium.
20:49:46johnb2I don't want to nitpick.
20:49:55[Saint]People tent to think they can rely on it.
20:50:03[Saint]Which is laughable at best.
20:50:14stabxI've heard an anecdote about a troll claiming that the new iPhones can be "drilled through" to get the hidden headphone jack
20:50:20stabxSupposedly lots of people fell for it.
20:50:32Bilgussure but it sure is conveient, Oh yeah the behind the scenes is SCARY
20:50:41[Saint]see also: microwave radiation charging.
20:50:49[Saint]and automatic liquid ingress protection.
20:51:00[Saint]consumers are generally just idiots.
20:51:25[Saint]its not unique to iphone users or apple apologists. ;)
20:51:55BilgusSD cards are very unreliable as a storage medium but for music who cares
20:52:03stabxI find SD cards convenient enough. The only displeasure I've had with them was the necessity to format SDXC to FAT32
20:52:11stabxBut it wasn't that hard to get over.
20:52:35BilgusI do dislike how easy they are to lose
20:52:59stabxNot really... You usually keep them inside of the device all the time.
20:53:05stabxExcept if you're a photographer.
20:53:16[Saint]that defeats the purpose.
20:53:21stabxBut then you'd be probably carrying those fancy expensive camera bags with SD card pockets
20:53:30[Saint]if you never remove it, why get removable storage to begin with?
20:53:35BilgusI carry different ones for different music
20:54:09stabxYou can swap them, or expand them
20:54:31Bilgusmy clip+ is no longer locking them though and I will not take it apart again till I have to I just made a metal shim out of EMI shielding for now
20:54:57[Saint]are they push-pull or friction fit?
20:55:00[Saint]I forget.
20:55:08stabxYou get an universal disk that can be applied and course freely between phones, cameras, DAPs and so on
20:55:11BilgusI guess the socket only has so many insertions till it wears away
20:55:44[Saint]one of the problems is that nothing modern wants to deal with FAT32 anymore.
20:55:57[Saint]which makes a lot of sense, really.
20:56:01[Saint]we're stuck in the past.
20:56:10Bilgusjohnb2, thanks for the manual work, I hate the stuff :)
20:56:38stabxI've heard that the split between SDXC and SDHC and in extension, fat32 and exfat (I think it was exfat) was some sort of Microsoft patent thing actually.
20:56:41[Saint]sadly the benefits of exfat in the context of Rockbox don't outweigh the cost of implementation.
20:57:24[Saint]stabx: no, it's just that exfat is the spec-defined SDHC format.
20:57:35[Saint]it doesn't need to stay that way, it only needs to ship that way.
20:58:03stabxWell, of course it doesn't if we can format it.
20:58:08[Saint]ask the SD association why they dictated this I suppose.
20:58:13johnb2Welcome. As mentioned it was blind writing, I hope the formatting turns out as intended.
21:01:23stabxReally, in my case it's just more convenient to have my music and stuff stored on an external SD card. If the device doesn't have enough space on its HDD, I can always stash additional 60 Gigs on it, and if it gets bricked, I won't have to mourn the loss of all that storage AND the data.
21:01:25johnb2Maybe someone else should review the Autolock part, as I feel the wording / style doesn't fit the other manual prose.
21:02:44[Saint]That we should suffer the slings and arrows, of outrageous autolock.
21:02:57*[Saint] writes prose on autolock
21:03:06stabxOscar Wilde/10
21:05:16BilgusI've seen a lot of SD bricks the last few years sometimes they get lucky and I can recover *most* of their data and usually it is just DEAD
21:05:45stabxBilgus: As a result of physical or digital failure?
21:06:04Bilgusguessing digital usually in android pphones
21:06:37Bilgusmakes me wonder if they have a write limit and just auto brick
21:06:37stabxSD Foundation had a download for official formatting tool, probably useful when it comes to bricking
21:07:44johnb2it is called.
21:07:49stabxI had weird stuff with the detection of my SD Card. It was troublesome to write to an SD Card on my Sansa on PC, on Laptop it was even worse. I often used an USB stick with an SD slot to write into it, and then stick it back to Sansa.
21:07:57stabxLast time I messed up badly
21:08:46stabxI was writing to the SDCard through the USB stick, and it would again disconnect while writing. Only that this time it has left me with a corrupted folder full of nonsense data I can't get rid of
21:08:52stabxBut hey, at least Rockbox still works.
21:09:06[Saint]yeah, some sds just plain hate being zeroed.
21:09:20Bilgusno the really bad ones don't even ack insertion nothing on the data lines even
21:09:20[Saint]that's the only time that shitty sdformatter is vaguely useful.
21:10:06stabxI've had corrupted data which I couldn't delete from PC before, because the entire card would turn into a read-only filesystem, but I was able to delete it from Rockbox
21:10:52stabxThis time it won't get rid of that folder stuffed with scary random data. Maybe I'll format the drive in the future, but it doesn't cause trouble yet.
21:10:52[Saint]lol - pretty cavalier attitude to an obviously corrupt filesystem.
21:10:57[Saint]whatever floats you boat.
21:11:19BilgusI remember this DOS/Win virus that would fill your pc with garbage files you couldn't see LOL
21:11:29[Saint]throw fsck.vfat at it.
21:11:53BilgusWould be funny on an SD
21:11:53[Saint]the garbage files are a symptom of the problem.
21:12:03[Saint]not the problem.
21:12:19stabxHm. Guess I'll format the card soon then.
21:12:31stabxI pretty much have most of music backed up, luckily.
21:12:34[Saint]removing said garbage without addressing the underlying issue is a stopgap fix.
21:13:07[Saint]it'll just keep happening.
21:13:35stabxI have similar crap going on with my Windows partition from quite a time now
21:14:22stabxI have a tiny Linux partition for most of stuff I do with my PC, and a Windows partition under it for stuff I don't do and storage. I would store most files there because I didn't have enough space on Linux
21:14:43stabxFrom quite a time now, the Win partition has turned into a read-only filesystem, no damn idea how.
21:15:07stabxWell, I can write onto it when I actually boot Windows. But can't anymore when running Linux
21:19:50 Quit johnb2 (Quit: Nettalk6 -
21:21:05 Join alexweissman [0] (
21:22:08BilgusThat sounds like a windows FU from their boot BCD dislike of linux
21:22:31stabxLess acronyms if you please.
21:22:54__builtinBCD: boot configuration data
21:23:07__builtin(I think)
21:23:20BilgusI've been running windows in Virtual disks for a few years now, and with 8+ having native support it has made fixing family members PCs a breeze too
21:23:57__builtinoh say, Bilgus
21:24:12__builtinwould you consider g#1417 "done"?
21:24:14fs-bluebotGerrit review #1417 at : Selective Backlight/Advanced Softlock - Selective actions based on context by William Wilgus
21:24:36BilgusYEAH BCD is what windows boot loader uses
21:25:12Bilgus__builtin it is done except a couple manual entries ill add in the next few days
21:25:35 Quit alexweissman (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
21:25:52Bilgusand changing 'Unmapped buttons' to 'Unmapped Keys'
21:26:53BilgusI'm kinda balls deep in a new time picker atm and don't really want to stop atm
21:27:05stabxBilgus: Hm, maybe I could try researching and resolving that since I brought that up. Any recommended place where I could try? I'd go to #ubuntu, but asking about *Windows* partition there would feel a bit weird.
21:27:11__builtinooh, the date/time settings?
21:27:46Bilguswell it won't be for the dates I'm thinking but for all other time settings yes
21:27:55[Saint]you still got your heart set on that really weird scrolling list with linear scaled values instead of what we do right across the board?
21:28:04*[Saint] prepares his premptive frowny face
21:28:43BilgusNO think of the time picker for the RTC but it dynamically scales the inputs to HH:MM:SS:MS
21:29:35[Saint]doesn't that mean going through every single setting and then getting it to pass the units it expects to the picker?
21:29:41[Saint]seems like a lot of overhead.
21:29:46Bilgus "test_time", UNIT_SEC, -1, 120, 1, backlight_test_formatter, backlight_getlang,
21:29:46Bilgus backlight_set_timeout)
21:31:10[Saint]Guess I shouldn't be too surprised, not really any other way to do it.
21:31:25Bilguswe already pass units.. Really not much overhead to scale the input properly
21:32:05[Saint]I tend to favor the 'single massive list' path myself.
21:32:28[Saint]it's easier to deploy and much easier to talk.
21:32:52BilgusBAh I bet i'll knock some size off the binary when it is all said and done
21:32:57[Saint]in hindsight - I'm unreasonably bitter at the visually impaired users, lol
21:33:34Bilgusplus it will unify the 13 different inputs
21:33:46[Saint]having to remember about talking strings and values is unreasonably annoying sometimes.
21:33:59[Saint]stoopid blind people, bein' all blind 'n shit.
21:34:55Bilgusyeah it would ber nice too have a screen reader instead of having to put it all in but it is pretty cool
21:36:17[Saint]one thing I'm not positive you've thought about, and I'm sure you'll hate me for, is RTL langs.
21:36:26[Saint]remember they'll expect the values to flip.
21:36:40stabxOK, I think I'll go now and let you serious devs be the serious devs you are.
21:36:49Bilgusthat was the first thing I had working :P
21:37:03stabxThanks for help and advice. It was greatly appreciated.
21:37:06[Saint]colour me impressed.
21:37:21stabxGuess I'll be off hunting for them relic DAPs of the past.
21:37:23[Saint]Take care stabx
21:37:50stabxI'll hang out from time to time probably :)
21:38:13Bilgus[Saint] Ill have you take a look at it once its all working get some input
21:38:47stabxAnd Saint, do you want me to reproduce and send you RAM usage and eventual freeze bug on dev versions of v2 later on? I can do that if it helps Rockbox, though I don't feel confident enough to file a proper bug report.
21:39:09[Saint]stabx: yes, that would be very useful, thank you.
21:39:15[Saint]whenever you're ready.
21:39:44stabxOkay. I'll drop in with details some unspecified time in the future.
21:39:47[Saint]it's not something that has any obvious reason to happen and is likely a fairly trivial oversight.
21:40:09stabxBye now and have... fun bugfixing?
21:41:00 Quit stabx (Quit: --)
21:45:24__builtinhmm, was the idea for localizable plugins ever put into action?
21:47:09[Saint]there's not really a sane way to do it.
21:47:12pamaurylebellium: I've tried on the NWZ-E580 and I can launch service menu directly from bootloader
21:48:23__builtinhow about spoken menus?
21:51:25 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~root@irssi/staff/TheLemonMan)
22:06:52lebelliumpamaury: nice!
22:27:54lebelliumpamaury: can you check in the test mode DAC->B-GAIN. Is it on 0.0?
22:28:32 Quit soap_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
22:28:53lebelliumIt was 1.5 on mine but I can't remember if it's the default value or if I unintentionally changed it
22:30:03 Join soap [0] (~soap@rockbox/staff/soap)
22:33:07fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision a38e9ba, 255 builds, 17 clients.
22:37:58 Quit CommunistWitchDr (Remote host closed the connection)
22:38:03***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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22:42:07fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 540 seconds.
22:42:08fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision a38e9ba result: All green
22:42:09fs-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 1d7b37e, 255 builds, 15 clients.
22:42:54pamaurylebellium: let me see
22:43:32pamaurylebellium: BASS GAIN: 1.5, BSS FC: 50 Hz
22:44:32lebelliumso Sony doesn't want to give you a "flat" sound by default
22:45:53pamauryapparently not
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22:53:12fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 665 seconds.
22:53:13fs-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 1d7b37e result: All green
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23:07:13lebelliumpamaury: did you intentionally put on gerrit a new patch for the port instead of updating the older one?
23:08:19pamaurylebellium: no, indeed that's a mistake, I thought I copied the Change-Id over...
23:08:58 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.")
23:09:55*[Saint] has a bashrc.d alias that manages that somewhere.
23:10:13[Saint]bt it revolves around you specifically exporting the changeid as an env var.
23:10:26[Saint]so it's still open to failure.
23:10:31[Saint]I just got lazy.
23:17:56 Join Guest93 [0] (~textual@
23:21:24pamauryWell I thought I copied the Change Id when I copied the old commit text, must have made a typo
23:21:38*pamaury thinks that's the perfect example of why git needs something like git-series
23:29:20 Part robertd1
23:36:22 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 50.1.0/20161208153507])
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23:58:37 Quit skapazzo (Quit: Lost terminal)

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