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#rockbox log for 2017-02-09

00:01:15__builtinmadk: no, I'm not
00:01:24__builtin(regarding Abe)
00:01:50__builtinit was just easy to port
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07:54:43*dys dumped his TEAC notes into the wiki ->
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08:15:09[Saint]EDITORS NOTES: run
08:16:36dysthat bad?
08:21:12[Saint]If I recall your previous statements, it's Blackfin based isn't it?
08:21:48*[Saint] puckers
08:23:14[Saint]hah - actually just now reading the notes, I find the Flash dump section way more amusing than I should.
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10:01:38pamaurywodz: did you get my email ?
10:02:04pamauryhunterloo said that the OS dev team apparently doesn't want to share any info
10:02:58wodzpamaury: I just realized that problem with ubifs can be mitigated if Agptek is really interested in running rockbox on this device. They can release official upgrade image with second level bootloader (aka rockbox bootloader) included.
10:03:46wodzpamaury: yes, got email
10:04:58[Saint]pamaury: wait...what?
10:05:28[Saint]I sincerely hope that they want to get fucked on calling it Rockbox then. Even though they /can/, that would be a very large "dick move".
10:05:53pamauryI've looked quickly at the uboot binary an I think there is some hope in the sense that the uboot binary is really "the Nth sectors of flash" and thus contains the flash parameters, the IPL and uboot. Thus, it should be possible for example to modify it to run rockbox I think. For example, we extract just uboot, patch it so that the first instruction select between uboot and rockbox) and repack. Thus the IPL loads uboot+rockbox
10:06:32[Saint]wait, maybe I'm confused - hunterloo is the AGPtek guy that was "making a dedicated Rockbox device", no?
10:06:44[Saint]They guy that periodically disappears from the forums.
10:07:02wodz[Saint]: agptek bought firmware from fiio. Fiio dev team might be reluctant to support any side activity.
10:07:19pamauryI think it's clear that agptek doesn't develop the OS, they only dev the UI.
10:07:31[Saint]The plot thickens.
10:07:52[Saint]He certainly alluded to his team doing active HW and SW dev with full control.
10:08:13[Saint]Though, I've thought for a while now that there was, in fact, no "team".
10:08:18[Saint]Just him.
10:09:58wodzI think the truth is that 1) Agptek bought some generic design from 3rd party which is hardware wise similar to fiio X1v2 2) They signed contract with fiio to customize firmware 3) Agptek is in fact responsible only for marketing burden.
10:10:09pamauryalso I think it's better not to rely on apgtek, if the fiio team did the port, the more generic our patching is, the more likely we can use it on other devices from fiio
10:11:05[Saint]I guess that explains all the needlessly vague responses.
10:11:23[Saint]In reality I guess he didn't have any clue either and wasn't being dismissive or evasive.
10:11:35[Saint]Man...that's really depressing.
10:11:45[Saint]A lot of people are going to be pissed.
10:11:56[Saint]Well...several dozen people. Maybe.
10:12:27pamauryI've asked the kernel and uboot source but we all know china enforces the gpl in general
10:12:55wodzStill, that is interesting platform. Affordable and available from amazon. Seems to run linux which should make porting relatively easy and general.
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10:15:10lebellium_z3c[Saint]: I'm a sucker. I bought it...
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10:16:03lebellium_z3cI can return it though if I feel too fooled
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10:23:28wodzpamaury: unpacked ubifs, seems to be glibc-2.16 based
10:29:20pamaurywodz: I plan to spend the least possible amount of time reversing the linux userspace if possible. I'm only interested in the firmware upgrade mecanism at the moment. But I didn't have much time to play, I only unpacked the stem and located the main firmware
10:29:24*pamaury goes to work
10:30:01wodzpamaury: Actual player application is /usr/bin/hiby_player (it is run though shell script /usr/bin/ which basically reboots device when player application exits)
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10:33:35[Saint]lebellium_z3c: I was waiting for a gerrit submission
10:33:41[Saint]good thing I held fire.
10:34:02[Saint]though, I'm willing to bet one of the two above will get Rockbox running on it just to spite the fuckers now.
10:36:39lebellium_z3cThe robot can port Rockbox to anything so I'm quite confident :) it's just that I could have waited for the OEM version Benjie T6 which will probably be cheaper.
10:39:08lebellium_z3cI paid €Xx more just for a reworked UI
10:39:24lebellium_z3cAnd maybe a warranty
10:44:00[Saint]...which you'll void immediately.
10:44:36wodzrobot :P
10:47:11 Quit lebellium_z3c (Quit: Bye)
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10:48:19[Saint]I prefer to think of him of a being that isn't bound by human limits.
10:48:23wodzha, according to strings in binary thats the player app
10:48:26[Saint]But isn't necessarily robotic.
10:48:46[Saint]We know he doesn't experience time linearly.
10:49:22[Saint]To pamaury, for any given target, Rockbox exists in both ported and unported states simultaneously.
10:49:32 Quit Elfish (Remote host closed the connection)
10:51:34[Saint]He's like Abbott and Costello from A Brief History Of You.
10:52:10[Saint]In some dimensions he's already finished the port. In others, he's no yet begun.
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10:54:45[Saint]Bah, sorry, mixing books - A Story Of Your Life
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11:12:08pamauryI can confirm that the OF doesn't look as nice as the HiBy website ;)
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11:12:59pamauryI find it quite amazing how this player is in fact the sum of two things, none of which was done by AGPTeK apparently
11:15:44[Saint]regurgitated iOS boilerplate development and 'nice' don't belong in the same sentence. :)
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11:51:32lebelliumpamaury: just got NWZ-A867 :)
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12:51:54pamaurylebellium: again another player!
12:53:03lebelliumyes! Only €35 for 64Gb
12:53:13lebelliumI had no choice to buy it :S
12:54:13lebelliumMy AGPtek Rocker should arrive today at the Amazon Locker too. But since I'm sick and at home, I don't know yet if I'll pick it up
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13:08:19Bilgus_someone shoved it up his nose!
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13:20:35pamaury_hum, I am confused, I asked huterloo about the firmware upgrade format and process. And he sent me this link
13:21:08pamaury_which 1) doesn't give any technical info, it's a user thing 2) why the hell point to me to questyleaudio ??
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14:44:45Bilgus_I fianlly managed to shove multiboot into the sansaclip+ firmware 15 bytes to spare the ClipV1 OTOH never gonna happen
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14:51:19Bilgus_Oops Bootloader the firmware was alway fine :p
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17:30:16nicknejmsomebody tolds me that when i plug mp3 player with rockbox on it, to my pc via usb for copy some music to my device, it runs default non-free OS/Firmware ?
17:30:47nicknejmcan i fully remove all non-free stuff from my device ?
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17:30:51[Saint]That is broadly untrue.
17:31:10[Saint]And, for a wide majority of devices, no, you can not. Nor would you want to.
17:31:36lebelliumIt really depends on devices. Some of them indeed rely on the OF for USB
17:31:48[Saint]non-free != bad
17:32:42[Saint]lebellium: right, hence why I said broadly untrue instead of entirely untrue.
17:32:48nicknejmSaint, maybe for you, i dont want to talk about your beliefs, i just ask that maybe i can remove all non-free stuff from mp3 player, its not possible then ?
17:32:58[Saint]more detailed discussion would require the actual model.
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17:33:57[Saint]It's not possible to completely remove any and all shreds of the OF on any of the recent targets to my knowledge.
17:34:06[Saint]and nor would it be advisable to.
17:34:10nicknejmI dont have any for now, i want to buy, so is there exist any mp3 player model where i can fully remove all non-free stuff maybe ? lebellium ?
17:34:36lebelliumThere is lightROM on YP-R0 which has no OF
17:35:24[Saint]is their lowlevel bootloader entirely open?
17:35:28pamaury_almost all targets requires at least some non-free stuff to initialize the RAM
17:35:34[Saint]^ that
17:35:45nicknejmlebellium so Samsung YP-R0 can be fully free then ?
17:35:46pamaury_I highly doubt this is free on the YP-R0, but I might be wrong
17:36:06[Saint]I have my doubts also, but I thought lebelliummight know.
17:36:14pamaury_on the imx233 targets, the closest you can get to free is letting OF initialize the RAM (a few kiloytes of code)
17:36:33[Saint]actually, I'll retract what I said earlier.
17:36:47[Saint]I'm not aware of a _single_ target where we can shed all proprietary code.
17:36:48lebelliumLightROM is here
17:36:51[Saint]recent or otherwise.
17:37:07[Saint]lebellium: I'll take that as an "I don't know" then?
17:37:15lebellium[Saint]: yes :)
17:37:29[Saint]I think the safe bet is it isn't.
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17:37:45lebelliumI'm not knowledgeable enough. From my user point of view, there is no "Samsung" trace
17:37:47lebelliumbut that's it
17:38:03[Saint]lowlevel init's being done by something that isn't us.
17:38:44nicknejmlevellium so that YP-R0 with lightbox will be fully free, without any priopetary firmware or something ?
17:38:45pamaury_I'm not sure what nicknejm calls free, but I believe he expects 0 bytes of code that doesn't have some associated source code
17:39:04nicknejmpaumary_ yes
17:39:12[Saint]then, no.
17:39:13lebelliumnicknejm: just read the discussion and what I said to [Saint]
17:39:36lebelliumThere is the user point of view, what I and you would see
17:39:41lebelliumand there is the reality behind
17:39:55nicknejmi dont understand
17:40:36[Saint]He's saying he doesn't think, and neither do I, that you're aware that there's more than just the original and third party firmware.
17:41:03nicknejmstill dont understand
17:41:07pamaury_it is my humble opinion, but there is some level of "freeness" that makes little sense to me. For example RAM init is the typical example where you don't even have the doc for the controller (or it is mostly unreadable). Sure you can reverse-engineer the code, and you get code, that you can compile, but not understand. Is that really free ?
17:41:13[Saint]if you want to entirely remove proprietary code, it's not going to happen.
17:41:25[Saint]in a nutshell.
17:41:36[Saint]not on a consumer DAP at least.
17:41:45[Saint]And not on most consumer SBCs either.
17:42:00 Quit Bilgus_ph (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:42:12pamaury_[Saint]: it's not happening but it could happen, someone "just needs to do the work" ;)
17:42:39pamaury_as in "someone just needs to write coreboot" ;)
17:42:42[Saint]'re not wrong, but, not even you hate yourself that much.
17:43:11[Saint]Most of us are willing to deal with proprietary assets that make our lives easier and assist recovery.
17:43:23lebelliumjust to close the discussion about the YP-R0, I just powered on mine with lightROM and there is still the original Samsung bootscreen....
17:43:24[Saint]Especially on things with little to no real attack potential.
17:43:26pamaury_yeah as I said, I don't think it's worth spending 100h to RE some RAM init code I cannot possibly understand
17:43:55[Saint]If you're putting sensitive data on a DAP, you already failed opsec.
17:44:03nicknejmOkay then, so when ill install Lightrom for samsung YP-R0, it will replace something like boot-firmware on PC's ?
17:44:49[Saint]There's not a singular device I am aware of that meets your criteria.
17:45:21lebelliumnicknejm: the developed actually just removed the Samsung application so there is no dualboot
17:45:38lebelliumbut you get the original Samsung bootscreen
17:45:40lebelliumthat doesn't sound good :)
17:45:56pamaury_lightROM looks very non-free actually
17:46:08[Saint]It does.
17:46:09pamaury_they still use the kernel and proprietary modules from Samsung I think
17:46:20[Saint]There's also things you're just plain not thinking about.
17:46:23pamaury_and probably proprietary bootloder
17:46:28[Saint]Like, a lot of LCDs have their own controllers.
17:46:36[Saint]Good luck reflashing them.
17:46:51 Join Bilgus_ph [0] (~Bilgus_ph@
17:46:57[Saint]NAND, same story.
17:46:59pamaury_Most controllers have code in ROM though, you can't change it
17:47:09 Join foolsh [0] (
17:47:12[Saint]Precisely my point.
17:47:20lebelliumpamaury_: there is the original Linux kernel and the Samsung bootloader too I guess.
17:47:39lebelliumHe just removed the Samsung app and USB relies on "Safe mode"
17:47:50[Saint]IIRC the original linux kernel was pretty fucky on the YPR*s
17:48:02[Saint]the supplied source can't actually compile a functional kernel from memory.
17:48:08[Saint]so something's amiss.
17:48:38pamaury_yeah good luck compiling the kernel
17:48:43[Saint]I'm prepared to believe I /may/ be misremembering that one but I don't believe so.
17:48:48[Saint]the source was a bag of shit.
17:49:30[Saint]just "has a linux kernel" isn;t good enough without being able to audit it and having to have implicit trust.
17:49:31pamaury_nicknejm: I'm kind of advertising the players I've done the port too, but players like the Fuze+ can be made very close to non-free. If you can leave with a few kilobytes of code ran once at boot to init ram
17:49:37nicknejmAny free kernel for mp3 players then ?
17:49:40[Saint]we've all seen linux kernels that are anything BUT free.
17:49:52Bilgus_phWhat is the significance of rockbox being loaded from root rather than they .rockbox folder does this indicate a failed install? I think if I can find the room i'd like to add boot flags to boot_data things like in_root on_ext etc.
17:49:56pamaury_other such players include NWZ-E360, E370, E380
17:50:21pamaury_Creative ZEN X-Fi3
17:50:53[Saint]what of things like LCD and GPU magic pamaury_?
17:51:02lebelliumpamaury_: I guess he doesn't want dualboot
17:51:03[Saint]I'm widely unfamiliar with these linuxy targets.
17:51:04nicknejmpaumary_ so you mean ZEN X-Fi3,NWZ-E60,70,80 will be the most free options ?
17:51:24*[Saint] poitns out that "most free" != "free" and we're abck where we started.
17:51:28pamaury_lebellium: there is an option to create a single boot bootloader, thus remove almost all of OF
17:51:39lebelliumwas not aware
17:51:50pamaury_almost as in everything except the few kilobyte that init RAM
17:51:50[Saint]If "almost free" was acceptable it would've changed this whole discussion.
17:51:54[Saint]you maintained it wasn't.
17:52:26lebellium[Saint]: I bet he doesn't see any OF trace with his eyes, that's enough
17:52:29nicknejmpaumary_ i will have free kernel on these models ?
17:52:30pamaury_I'm just stating the option. I'm fine with RAM init being non-free, I am not a fan of the entire bootloader being non-free
17:52:40[Saint]lebellium: you're probably right, which is pretty sad really.
17:52:42 Quit Bilgus_ph (Remote host closed the connection)
17:52:53[Saint]informed enough to make a serious decision, but not to validate it.
17:53:03[Saint]or justify it.
17:53:41pamaury_[Saint]: those targets have a LCD controller but I'm 99% sure it's implemented in hardware, not software. And the imx233 has a very weak gpu but we don't use it at all
17:54:20[Saint]but _it's there_.
17:54:29[Saint]which I read as a problem for this type of user demand.
17:54:31pamaury_(and this gpu does not require a firmware blob, it's just glorifed DMA basically)
17:54:36[Saint]though lebelliumis likely right.
17:54:44[Saint]and "out of sight" would be suffiecient.
17:54:51[Saint]Hell...we could likely just lie.
17:54:56[Saint]Not like he'll audit it.
17:54:59nicknejmhow can i have free kernel on mp3 player ? Rockbox will replace it ?
17:55:15[Saint]Sad but true.
17:55:48[Saint]A convincing nod and a mistruth would be plenty good enough. It'll never be audited or verified either way.
17:55:59pamaury_nicknejm: that depends, on YP-R0 we rely on the linux kernel (which is free but we are not sure all the kernel modules are freee, you would need to check samsung open source website). On many targets we use our own kernel
17:57:12 Quit pamaury (Remote host closed the connection)
17:57:48nicknejmpaumary_ can i replace linux for linux-libre(which is fully free) on YP-R0 ?
17:58:20[Saint]If you could you wouldn't be asking the question.
17:58:58lebelliumnicknejm: I told you even with lightROM you have the original Samsung bootscreen. You won't like it
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17:59:43lebelliumand lorenzo tried to replace the original Linux kernel with a less-buggy and more recent one, it didn't work
17:59:44nicknejmyeah, but if i can get fully free device, ill search for mostly free model
18:00:09nicknejmbut linux-libre is that same kernel but fully free
18:00:25[Saint]So "not at all the same, in any way or form" then.
18:01:41[Saint]Incidentally, do you use a mobile phone?
18:01:51[Saint]Or anything with a wireless modem?
18:02:03[Saint]...I bet you can see where I'm going with this.
18:02:17pamaury_I think it's almost impossible to have a completely free kernel on the YP-R0 unless you are an experience kernel developer and have a lot of work
18:02:23pamaury_*lot of free time
18:02:57[Saint]yeah, hence my "if you need to ask if you can do it, you can't do it"
18:03:08pamaury_I don't think the datahseet for the cpu is even available
18:03:36[Saint]there's a /very/ similar CPUs datasheet available IIRC.
18:03:36pamaury_and, most importantly, it is entirely plausible that the bootloader (even if it's free), is signed
18:04:02[Saint]I believe that is indeed the case.
18:04:26[Saint]Not to mention that working with bootloaders when there's no clear hardware recovery route is dead scary.
18:04:29pamaury_so unless you can break PKI, that's a no-go to change the bootloader unless you find a ROM exploit
18:04:43nicknejmSaint, nope i use nothing about my pc
18:05:05[Saint]so this PC you're on, the Internet with, doesn't have a modem?
18:05:07lebelliumanyway lorenzo stopped contributing for some time now so most likely no-one will change something on YP-R0. nicknejm can only rely on himself
18:05:22[Saint]carrier pigeons?
18:05:30nicknejmSaint, oh yeah, it have a modem
18:05:37pamaury_some wireless cards have an open firmware actually
18:05:47nicknejmwhat cards ?
18:06:32pamaury_I don't remember, that was some time ago. Now it's possible that they have stopped
18:06:50[Saint]If they haven't yet, they will very shortly by mandate.
18:07:02[Saint]which I'm not convinced is a bad thing.
18:07:03*pamaury_ points to
18:07:18nicknejmabout what cards you talking about ?
18:07:56pamaury_for example
18:08:47[Saint]I would also wonder what magical open BIOS this PC runs.
18:08:49nicknejmwhat is Qualcomm Atheros AR7010 ?
18:09:15[Saint]I guess the point I'm making is that there's a lot of links in the chain of hardware and software you're not considering.
18:09:16nicknejmif i have internet modem in home, and im using internet from it via wi-fi
18:09:25[Saint]Being militant about openness is practically impossible.
18:09:29nicknejmthen i need free-software drivers ?
18:09:37nicknejmhmmm, internet modem have non-free firmware ?
18:09:44[Saint]Yes. Of course.
18:09:53nicknejmany free replacement for it ?
18:10:02[Saint]Almost certainly not.
18:11:11nicknejmwhat u mean by almost ?
18:11:15[Saint]Of the hundreds and hundreds of possible chipsets, there's literally only a few with usable open firmware.
18:11:25[Saint]And of that few only a couple that aren't complete shit.
18:11:43nicknejmSaint, can u give me names of them ?
18:12:01[Saint]I can not. Not for lack of want, but for their obscurity.
18:12:31nicknejmwhat obscurity
18:13:09[Saint]But as I see it a system is only as open as its least open aspect.
18:13:09[Saint]I mean, does it really matter if your wireless chipset, or CPU, or GPU is open, if your BIOS isn't?
18:14:39[Saint]Can you trust the firmware on your HDD or SSD?
18:15:10[Saint]These are questions you need to ask yourself if you want to persue this route.
18:16:39[Saint]If you're not careful, you'll turn into Stallman.
18:16:47[Saint]And no one wants that.
18:17:08 Quit nicknejm (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
18:17:43[Saint]bah - must be that unreliable open modem firmware. ;)
18:23:57 Quit pamaury_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
18:32:51 Join nicknejm [0] (50ee68ab@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
18:33:06nicknejmim here again, anyone writing to me ?\
18:33:35lebelliumjust read the logs
18:36:16nicknejmi do not have BIOS
18:36:25nicknejmand why u think Stallman standing is bad ?
18:37:39[Saint] don't have a BIOS?
18:39:08nicknejmi was replace it with libreboot
18:40:15nicknejmWhy u thing thats Stallman standing is bad idea ? Why turning into Stallman is bad in your opinion
18:40:30[Saint]OK. so that "only" leaves your HDD/SSD firmware then, the single point of access for all your persistent data.
18:40:54[Saint]nicknejm: because it essentially puts you in a position where you can't freely touch any technology.
18:41:22[Saint]and socks and sandals makes you a goddamn weirdo.
18:41:34*gevaerts suspects RMS would *never* type "u" instead of "you"!
18:41:35*[Saint] looks at gevaerts
18:41:46nicknejmSaint... yes i can, some laptops can be fully free
18:42:29nicknejmthere are work for made ssd's/hdd's fully free
18:47:35[Saint]there are, yes, though I maintain they're few and far between enough to count as not being freely accessibly.
18:47:54[Saint]and I also feel like if you have to ask why turning into Stallman is a bad thing you already failed life.
18:49:41nicknejmwhy u think that Stallmans thinking is that bad...
18:49:46nicknejmfreedoom is always good
18:51:02[Saint]not when it impinges on your quality of life more so than it helps.
18:51:38[Saint]at that point, at Stallman levels, it is a mental illness.
18:51:40gevaertsLuckily you *can* play freedoom on rockbox!
18:51:58nicknejmi dont think so
18:52:03[Saint]*ahem* pRBoom
18:52:06nicknejmfreedoom improve quality of life
18:52:48[Saint]how's it working out for you right now?
18:52:58[Saint]you want a DAP that's entirely free.
18:53:02[Saint]You can't have one.
18:53:08[Saint]How's the freedom treating you?
18:53:28foolshfreedom and free market do not good bed fellows make
18:53:35*gevaerts would argue that this discussion is off-topic
18:53:48[Saint]gevaerts would be entirely correct
18:56:46nicknejmfreedoom is more important that music
18:56:51nicknejmor else
18:57:08gevaerts"or else"? Threats, now?
18:57:12Mode"#rockbox +o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:57:21nicknejmliving free in shit is better than golden cage ;)
18:57:29nicknejmi have to go, thanks, cya
18:58:56 Quit nicknejm (Quit: Page closed)
18:59:09Mode"#rockbox -o gevaerts" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
18:59:23***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:16:52 Join kylemsguy [0] (~kylemsguy@
19:18:41kylemsguySaint: relevent webcomic in response to socks + sandals:
19:18:54 Quit kylemsguy (Client Quit)
19:35:41 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
19:37:46prof_wolfffi am going to commit g#1265 and tag the first release of the ipod6g bootloader, everything should be fine by following, but what about g#1266 (mks5lboot)? there are a couple of tags for mkXYZboot tools, so i think that mks5lboot should be tagged but not sure at all
19:37:49fs-bluebotGerrit review #1265 at : iPod Classic: bootloader by Cástor Muñoz
19:37:49fs-bluebotGerrit review #1266 at : iPod Classic: dualboot installer (mks5lboot) by Cástor Muñoz

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