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#rockbox log for 2017-02-26

00:14:28pamaurylebellium: I can confirm that fr is for france
00:14:44 Quit skapazzo (Quit: leaving)
00:37:14__builtinhey, about a release, if we're going to have a feature freeze, how long are they usually?
00:38:19gevaertsOne or two weeks, but realistically speaking that's the average time between commit batches these days
00:38:52 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
00:39:35__builtinalso, who decides if there's going to be one in the first place?
00:39:46gevaertsThe release manager? :)
00:42:58 Join saratoga [0] (126f6645@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
00:43:24saratogai don't think we need to do a real feature freeze, just prepare a branch, then build all the targets and give people time to test as many as possible
00:43:47saratogaif anyone was preparing a major refactor or something, we should coordinate with them anyway
00:43:59*gevaerts nods
00:44:30saratogafor example, it would be nice to get the ipod6g rbutil code committed before a release (although it is not necessary)
00:44:45__builtinwhat's preventing that?
00:45:20saratogai think just bluebrother and prof_wolfff being busy
00:45:30pixelmaI don't think you'll get a lot of testers for the old devices though :/ I include myself to the list of people not being motivated to test because I'm afraid that too much is broken by now (as I haven't updated in a looong while)
00:45:33saratoga are the release notes i prepared a while back
00:45:56saratogai think we pull the HWCODEC devices from this release anyway
00:46:04gevaertsYes, I think so too
00:46:15pixelmathen I'm even less motivated
00:46:15saratogathat mostly just leaves a few obscure CF and very old ipods which are unlikely to have been broken without someone noticing
00:46:52saratogapixelma: i think everyone agreed ages ago that newer builds were mostly just breaking things on hwcodec for very little gain
00:47:01gevaertsWell, if HWCODEC appears to actually be working, I'm not against including them
00:47:03saratogaor at least that was my impression
00:47:18saratogaaren't there binary size issues with at least some devices?
00:47:36pixelmaas far as I remember my M5 has been having trouble with voice enabled (crashes with stkov) for a while
00:47:53saratogaiAudio M5?
00:47:59*gevaerts tries to remember things
00:48:16saratogathat is possibly fixed by the recent file system fixes (last month)
00:48:19gevaertsArchos Recorder isn't in the build system due to size issues. The others are all there
00:48:39saratogaunless its actually the voice thread that fails?
00:48:58pixelmawhen I last asked about it, ages ago I got no answer or even interest in it
00:49:00gevaertsI vaguely remember the plan being to include HWCODEC in this release and drop them right after
00:49:26saratogaregardless, for very old targets, even getting people to write down what is currently broken would be a huge help
00:50:41saratogabut yeah given that about 6 M5 players probably still exist at this point that is a tough target to test
00:50:48pixelma gevaerts: IIRC rombox is broken for quite a few targets but rockbox (not run from ROM) is not
00:51:39saratogaanyway, having test builds up would be nice, we could try to bug people to actually try them out
00:51:52saratogai have a few old players in boxes somewhere i might be motivated to unpack for the first time in years
00:52:13pixelmasaratoga: the X5 was probably more popular and is very similar, so I expect similar problems
00:52:25saratogaoh good, should be easier to test then
00:52:47saratogawhich thread is it that overflows?
00:53:38saratogaby the way, if anyone has a nano2g, could they test if the hold switch is broken in the current build?
00:53:44saratoga(i gave mine to funman)
00:54:07pixelmanot sure, as far as I remember it didn't tell but I'd need to test again with a current build anyways
00:55:29saratogai thought it always prints, although maybe the text is cut off?
00:55:35saratogaX5 has a tiny screen right?
00:55:52saratogaoh m5 is the one with just a remote screen right?
00:56:01gevaertsNo, that's m3
00:56:18pixelmagevaerts: I meant that rockbox at least still builds, not sure about the usability
00:56:37pixelmasaratoga: greyscale 160x128
00:56:59gevaertsI think m5 vs x5 is mostly colour vs greyscale
00:57:06pixelmanot that tiny, but not big either
00:57:14gevaertsThe m5 doesn't do color sound :)
00:57:30pixelmabut but it says so :P
00:57:42saratogaat least on the clip zip (96 px width) some crash messages do cut off
00:58:16pixelmaalso radio (except for the X5Vs and *my* M5
01:01:10Bilgus_Ive a few things up atm that should knock off around 4.5kb assuming they don't break any other players bootloaders
01:01:36saratogayes, having new bootloaders available would be nice for ams
01:01:52saratogaalso i guess some of the creative and sony players should be added to the release
01:02:27saratogai can't even remember why we didnt make gigabeat s stable years ago
01:04:06 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.")
01:04:26gevaertsI don't know, but as far as I can remember it (a) never got a nice and easy bootloader installation, and (b) has a habit of suddenly disliking whatever rockbox does to the disk and reformat the main partition and then refuse to boot
01:08:12***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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01:23:13 Join nearffxx [0] (25778c27@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
01:25:18nearffxxHi, I have a rockbox firmware for the Sandisk e200 v2, and I want to test a .rock application. Is there any emulator available?
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01:37:46 Quit smoke_fumus (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium
01:43:46__builtinnearffxx: kind of, but it's not an emulator
01:43:56__builtinit's a UI simulator
01:44:20__builtinthe problem is that it can't just run any .rock file, every .rock is tightly bound to the rockbox it was built for
01:47:05nearffxxI actually almost reversed a .rock application in ida pro
01:47:38nearffxxbut it seems it uses some library functions or OS calls?
01:48:08nearffxx__builtin: so qemu/qemu-system is not usable right?
01:48:31nearffxxI have the rockbox.sansa too
01:50:14nearffxxI mean is there any documentation about the e200 v2 .rock format?
01:50:46__builtinhow did you manage to get a bare .rock file?
01:51:25nearffxxits a zip with rockbox-info.txt and other files
01:51:34nearffxxwhich includes a .rock file
01:51:44__builtinwhere'd you get that zip from?
01:53:09__builtinalso, rockbox-info.txt ought to have some information about the git commit it was built from
01:53:16__builtincan you pastebin that please?
01:54:58nearffxxhere is the full "zip"
01:55:32__builtinwhat .rock file are you examining?
01:56:31__builtinhmm, so this is a modified build
01:56:39nearffxxwhat do you mean?
01:57:04__builtinit wasn't built from a clean source tree
01:57:30__builtinhow did you get this .zip in the first place?
01:57:48nearffxxnot now is down
01:57:51nearffxxits a ctf XD
01:58:45__builtinno source?
01:59:21nearffxxits a reversing challenge
01:59:39nearffxxI have the pseudo code from ida pro
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01:59:55saratogaits that contest that people have been asking about for the last day or two
02:00:14*__builtin hasn't been keeping up with the backlog
02:00:18saratogaits just some simple plugin they're supposed to reverse engineer
02:00:49nearffxxbut something seems missing
02:00:54*__builtin hates to be picky, but isn't that a GPL violation?
02:00:58nearffxxlike well an emulator
02:02:26__builtinthere's no way to run that .rock without a hardware device
02:03:00__builtinI would point you to the linker script used to link the .rock though
02:03:24nearffxxthat might be helpful
02:03:34saratogapresumably they'll post the source code after the contest
02:03:55nearffxxsaratoga: yup
02:03:57saratogaan emulator for an mp3 player? that'd be a fun thing to write
02:04:07saratogaprovided one had a few years of free time
02:04:12nearffxxsaratoga: well its an arm based
02:04:16 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
02:04:40nearffxxat least an user space emualtor?
02:04:53 Quit ender` (Quit: I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. — Stephen Roberts)
02:05:07__builtinnearffxx: there is one but it's of no use to you
02:05:10saratogayou could start with an arm emulator, then you'd only have to do the other 99.9% of the work
02:05:26__builtinit can only run plugins that were specificially compiled for it
02:05:26nearffxxo.O ok
02:05:46__builtini.e. using an x86 compiler and a totally different file format
02:05:56__builtinso it's useless for this
02:06:00nearffxx__builtin: yup
02:06:35nearffxxis there any documentation for the e200v2 .rock format?
02:06:41__builtinthe linker script :P
02:07:27__builtinit seems to me like it's just a header with code sections following it
02:08:50nearffxxThere are some metedata in the header that I still don't understand :)
02:09:07nearffxxand some pointers points an anrea of memory out of the ROM
02:10:06saratogai think the idea here is that you have a binary and the source code to the build used to generate it, so you're supposed to look at the binary and figure out what it does
02:10:17saratogawhich is actually not that hard
02:12:17nearffxxsaratoga: maybe I should take a look at the source code
02:14:02__builtinnearffxx: I'd suggest you take a look at firmware/load_code.c and apps/plugin.c as well
02:15:05__builtinlc_ is the code that actually processes the .rock
02:15:18nearffxx__builtin: cool
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03:56:35ForgerI would like to join the group. I am just learning.
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10:30:49aude__can you recommend a device for Rockbox?
10:32:11aude__my beloved ClipZip was sadly stolen, after many years' daily use
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10:56:30johnb3If you need sd card support try to get a used sansa clip+ or zip, if not, the sony series can be found rather cheap.
10:57:07johnb3or the iPods (gen 5 -7).
11:02:52aude__yeah, I need SD card
11:03:06aude__it sounds like a ClipZip will be a quite good choice still
11:04:31lebelliumyes, probably the best. There are a few on-going sd targets (Sony A10/A20 and AGPTEk Rocker) but the port is not ready at all
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11:15:53aude__AGPTEk sounds really interesting
11:16:18aude__just found this exciting thread:,51071.0.html
11:17:28lebelliumyes, but in terms of size and weight, it's not exactly a Clip Zip :)
11:18:06lebelliumhere's the port thread,51653.0.html
11:20:32aude__I see. the tiny size of the Clip Zip is nice, but not essential to me. I'd gladly prefer that AGPTEk Rocker
11:20:51aude__sounds like I'll buy a ClipZip, and keep my fingers crossed for AGPTEk :D
11:22:09aude__I see there's also an AGPTEk Clip:
11:22:23lebelliumthere are several clones
11:22:42lebelliumbut only the Rocker has Rockbox requirements
11:23:42aude__ok. yeah, it seems only the rocker has enough memory etc.
11:24:12lebelliumand even if the OF is not as bad as I could imagine
11:24:19lebelliumI definitely need Rockbox on it
11:24:30lebelliumso the other AGPtek are not for me
11:25:01aude__ditto. Rockbox is a requirement
11:25:08aude__we do hang out here after all
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11:46:59polytuxprof_wolfff: it seems that it was an issue with my laptop, from my desktop it seems ok. do you have any recommendations for syncing a music folder that does not involve iTunes?
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12:19:13prof_wolfffpolytux: just copy your files from computer to iPod or use some generic tool that syncs music in that way, there is no RB ipod-classic manual but you can use ipod-video manual for more info
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12:32:39lebelliumpamaury: did the trace log help?
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12:55:23prof_wolfff__builtin, saratoga: about rbutil for ipod6g, i think it works well on Windows and Linux, already not implemented for Mac but mks5lboot works on latest Macs so it should work for rbutil, it can be implemented for old Macs but i can not test it and not sure if it does worth at all
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12:57:15prof_wolffftrue i am a bit busy so I don't want to start to implement something that could take a probably long undefined time, but there is no problem to help on rbutil, bugfix, testing... on classic or nano2g (the targets I own)
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13:31:50pamaurylebellium: sorting through the log takes a lot of time
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15:17:52AlexeyanHi. Any hints on reversing a .rock file?
15:20:02pixelmaI don't know how to but read the logs here and there was already some talk about it since yesterday as you are at least the third person asking here, so maybe start by reading the logs available at the homepage
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16:29:37pamauryAlexeyan: a rock file is essentially a small header + a raw binary (code), any disassembler or static analyzer tool (like radare2 or ida pro) will do
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16:53:15AlexeyanBut for which architecture?
16:54:10__builtinit depends on which device it was compiled for
16:54:29__builtinAlexeyan: is this the BKP2017 competition?
16:56:04Alexeyancompiled for sansa e200 v2
16:56:19__builtinso that's ARM
16:56:53__builtinI'd point you to our source repo at
16:57:03__builtinlook at firmware/load_code.c as a starting point
17:00:13*__builtin wanders off to fix some bugs
17:00:22AlexeyanOkay thanks. I didn't get ida to load the .rock file properly.. None of the Arm-modes neither the metaPC worked
17:00:45__builtindiscard the header portion
17:01:44__builtinwhat's left is just raw code
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18:35:01lebelliumpamaury: I didn't try yesterday but I just tried your latest version of the patch on A10
18:35:37lebelliumand the sound is fine!
18:36:09pamaurylebellium: in normal mode or cuerev or acoustic or all ?
18:36:21lebelliumwithout touching the debug menu for now
18:37:54lebelliumdo the changes in debug menu persist after reboot?
18:38:43lebelliumbecause on A10 it's clearly quieter than on E580
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18:40:43lebelliumOn E580 I'm at 8dB (or whatever it is) and on A10 at 18dB for similar volume
18:41:07lebelliummaybe I should also try the latest patch on E580 and a clean install again
18:42:16lebelliumthe only difference I know of is that in the test mode of E580, it has a bass boost by default
18:42:26lebelliumA10 has no bass boost
18:43:52lebelliumSince it's RaaA I assume the settings in the test mode also apply to Rockbox?
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18:48:41pamaurylebellium: changes do not persist over reboot
18:49:05pamaurylebellium: haha, so maybe bass boost is the culprit
18:49:18pamauryI can't say for sure but I would expect so
18:49:42pamaurythe sound driver has a ioctl interface to control treble and bass boost, I will look into it
18:49:43lebelliumin OF there is only a minor difference with and without the bass boost
18:49:46lebelliumbut I can try
18:50:08pamaurylebellium: do you remember if A10 also clips in normal mode ?
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18:50:22lebelliumwhat do you mean?
18:50:26lebelliumI just tried the normal mode
18:50:53lebelliumor is normal mode acoustic=0 + cue=0?
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18:53:08lebellium0 + 0 also clips but much less than on E580
18:53:29lebelliumI try with bass gain 0,0 instead of default 1,5 on E580
18:55:03lebelliumno, doesn't help
18:56:27pamaurylebellium: normal is acoustic=0 + cue=0
18:56:35pamauryacoustic is acoustic=1 + cue=0
18:56:41pamaurycuerev is cue=0
18:56:50lebelliumso normal mode is much better on A10
19:00:46pamaurybut still clips ?
19:01:28pamaurylebellium: does test mode changes bass gain permanently though ?
19:02:20lebelliumyes, Sony put 1,5 bass gain by default so that the E580 sounds "better"
19:02:33lebelliumthe A10 is in the audiophile range and doesn't need that
19:02:43lebelliumit has a flat osund
19:07:39lebelliumby the way, I still get a panic when reaching volume 31
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19:09:21pamauryon A10 ?
19:09:37pamaurybut not on E580 ?
19:09:42lebelliumvolume 30 is OK. If you press once more the volume up button, panic
19:09:47*pamaury wonders how one can even listen to volume 30
19:09:59lebelliumwith a 250 Ohm BT990 :)
19:10:07lebelliumit's easier to track clipping
19:11:07lebelliumindeed, it doesn't occur on E580
19:11:19lebelliumso back to the clipping comparison
19:11:47pamauryah great, even more small differences betweem players
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19:18:20lebelliumso actually on A10 it seems that there is no clipping with the 3 modes
19:18:58lebelliumI think the remaining light clipping comes from how the track itself is mixed and mastered
19:26:54lebelliumcomparing side by side, I think cue on A10 is very similar to A20 OF
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19:27:05lebelliumin term of sound and volume range
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19:37:31lebelliumthere is a 5 dB difference
19:38:02lebelliumpamaury: so with the same destination code on A10 and A20 and normal mode, I have exactly the same volume
19:38:09lebelliumso I assume normal mode is used in OF
19:41:50lebelliumI'm now sure about that
19:42:49lebelliumthe sound is exactly the same
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19:46:51pamaurythe A10 probably uses a different DAC from E580 though so it's hard to compare with E580 for example
19:47:14lebelliumhard to compare
19:47:22lebelliumbut at least we have the right setting for one target
19:48:00pamaurythe thing is that there are many more parameters that can be set, most of them not really documented
19:48:27pamauryit's possible that on the E580 the OF changes them but on A10 it uses the default ones
19:50:16lebelliumhow is the sound on E460?
19:50:52pamaurylast time I tried it was like the E580, the normal mode clips a lot
19:50:59pamauryand acoustic is too loud
19:51:04pamauryhaven't tried cuerev
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19:58:29lebelliumpamaury: with the same destination code, same volume, no bass boost on E580, they sound the same to my ears
19:58:36lebelliumbut yes, the DAC may be different anyway
19:58:46lebelliumI mean E580 and A10/A20
19:59:17pamauryyou mean OF sound the same ?
19:59:30lebelliumif you're under the same conditions
19:59:33lebelliumit sounds the same
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20:25:24pamaurywodz: lebellium: I had a quick look at the strace log but it's not very helpful. I cannot tell which alsa controls it is read/writing. I can see that it does a few ioctl to the sound driver directly but as far as I can tell, those only read data. There are a few more dsp ioctl that are called, but I cannot tell what it does, I'll look at the OF disasembly
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20:40:23lebelliumfunny, building the database works but the counter doesn't increase, it stays on "building database... 0 found" during all the process
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21:25:52__builtinis there a reason why lcd_puts_scroll is limited to lines and not pixels?
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21:29:36__builtinI guess it kind of makes sense on charcell
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21:32:31lebelliumpamaury: could you update your patch with normal sound for A10?
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21:33:31pamaurylebellium: you mean normal sound by default ?
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21:34:23lebelliumthen with a enhanced bootloader (power off possible), I would say the device is roughly usable! :)
21:35:36pamauryI haven't investigated power off yet
21:43:39pamaurylebellium: as I recall, we can run stuff on the A20 right ? So I could add support for it easily if you are interested
21:44:26lebelliumpamaury: yes, you can add support for it. It's basically an A10 with NC so I don't expect much difference in Rockbox behaviour and issues
21:45:51lebelliumI didn't ask before because that's my only recent Walkman left which I can turn on/off easily
21:46:15lebelliumon my E580 and A10 it's a nightmare while waiting for your updated bootloader :P
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