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#rockbox log for 2017-04-04

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10:49:35wodzpamaury: Where from is this 8bit shifting in sony pcm?
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13:04:16pamaurywodz: trial and error
13:06:20pamauryif you don't shift the level will be too low, since a 16-bit pcm is at most 2^16, so that mean your pcm sample would be only up to 2^16 when the maximum range is 2^32
13:06:37 Nick ben2 is now known as mercutio (
13:06:53pamauryso essentially you have a maximum volume of 2^(-16) compared to theoretical maximum, that's around -55dB
13:07:21pamauryif you shift by 8bit, you now only maximum volume of 2^(-8) which is 25dB
13:07:56pamauryand then you use the DAC/HP volume to compensante and that gives you a reasonable volume range
13:08:18pamauryof course one could adjust this shifting to produce a larger volume range in theory
13:08:55 Join robertd1 [0] (~root@
13:13:14wodzpamaury: But isn't it that 16bit signed should be scaled to cover 32bit signed?
13:14:29robertd1Hi pamaury, just saw your message.
13:23:38pamaurywodz: I think that would be incorrect
13:24:37pamaurymy understanding of a pcm sample is that it is essentially a fixed point integer between 0 and 1
13:24:48pamaurythus switching from 16-bit to 32-bit gives you more precision
13:25:16pamaurythus if you take a 16-bit sample, shift it by 16-bit and feed it as a 32-bit sample then it produces the same output
13:27:33wodzso in this case scaling by 8bits (256) is incorrect
13:28:39pamaurybut if I shift by 16-bit, it will be too loud
13:29:09pamaurybecause Sony's HP volume starts quite high already
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13:30:18pamauryby shifting by 8-bit instead of 16-bit, I am essentially applying a -25dB pre-amplification
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13:35:48wodzpamaury: Ok, I understand now but it seems odd you cannot use full pcm swing
13:36:37wodzMaybe they use 24bit representation internally? That would match your observations.
13:37:02pamaurywodz: you cannot magically turn 16-bit into 24-bit
13:37:25pamauryI guess internally they use 24-bit but I can't be sure
13:37:46pamaurypossibly we need to experiment with this, see if the sound is indeed correct with this mecanism
13:38:20wodzI mean if they internally use 24bit than they could compensate this at HP/DAC stage
13:40:11pamauryI couldn't find why Sony's code is doing to PCM, it's too complicated. But clearly we *have* to send 32-bit samples, at least on E580.
13:42:22wodzI think we can live with that as long as it produces reasonable sound at output
13:43:30pamauryyeah, I suggest several people listen to it and say that they think
13:43:47pamaurymaybe saratoga can tell us what is the proper way in theory
13:43:48robertd1There is a note in the specs of the Walkmans stating that the sampling frequency may not correspond to all encoders
13:44:13wodzthats irrelevant
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13:45:48pamaurythe thing is, I have two theories about why 32-bit sample are necessary:
13:45:48pamaury1) they screwed up the driver and the code is broken for 16-bit sample
13:45:48pamaury2) they set the DAC/HP volume chain very high so that if so do 16-bit sample, they get converted to 32-bit by shifting 16-bit and it clips
13:46:25pamauryExplanation #2 would match the observation: when we send 16-bit it looks like it clips, but if we send 32-bit by reducing volume of PCM, we get correct sound
13:53:06wodzpamaury: It is also possibility that builtin DSP is used for something and uses 24bit representation. So instead of properly scaling they simpy extend it to 32bit and compensate in HP stage
13:54:19pamauryanything is possible. I don't know if they use the DSP in the SoC for anything, I don't know what is the miniDSP program running on the codec, I don't know what magic the codec driver may be doing
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14:35:41igorskpamaury: tried installing bootloader on X1000, nothing happened ("showed "upgraing firmware" for a few seconds, then booted back to OF)
14:35:57igorskno logs on the user partition :/
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15:00:49igorsktried using dump_rootfs script, also nothing...
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15:08:10pamauryigorsk: maybe those old generation work differently
15:08:18pamauryI didn't have a look at them
15:08:29pamaurythe installer usually leaves a log though
15:10:04pamauryigorsk: are you sure there is no install_dualboot_log.txt file on the user partition ?
15:10:36pamaurymaybe the partitions are mounted at different places
15:11:01igorskpretty sure...
15:11:51igorskthe official firmware update uses /contents/$_UPDATE_FN_.UPG so should work normally...
15:12:54igorskah, I think I know
15:12:58igorskno lcdmsg binary
15:14:08igorsklet me try moving logging to front
15:17:47igorskoh wait there is lcdmsg on the fwup ramdisk... not sure then
15:19:30igorskbtw you mentioned something about passwords. you have an idea what it could be?
15:21:58 Quit wodz (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
15:29:33igorskmeh, now it's stuck in the update mode... I hope I didn't brick it
15:31:20igorskok, booted back to OF after reset... let's see
15:31:50igorskstill nothing on user partition
15:38:24pamauryigorsk: the thing is that the user partition is mounted read-only on firmware upgrade, so the first thing my upgrade script does is to remount it read-write
15:38:29pamauryapparently this is not working in your case
15:39:34pamauryigorsk: can you write down everything the install script prints on the screen?
15:40:10pamauryit should print Contents partition: <device corresponding to /contents/>
15:40:27igorskI didn't see even that
15:41:08pamauryreally ? So what did it print?
15:43:34igorskjust the standard "performing firmware update; do not disconnect etc."
15:43:41igorskthen rebooted
15:43:49pamauryigorsk: maybe it's a font problem
15:44:06pamauryon devices from E460, I specify the font as
15:44:06pamaurylcdmsg -c -f /usr/local/bin/font_08x12.bmp
15:44:30pamaurybut maybe the fonts are in a different place or the lcdmsg binary works differently on older players
15:45:09pamaurythe thing is that we do not have the fwup initrd
15:45:13pamauryfor this device
15:51:32pamaurylet me have a look at the rootfs for this device, see if I can find something interesting
15:52:20igorskok lcdmsdg worked without extra options
15:52:33pamauryhaha, that's annoyin
15:52:38igorskERROR:remount failed
15:53:18pamaurywhat was the partition?
15:53:33pamauryit should be printed after Contents partition:
15:53:35igorskit was too quick
15:54:01pamaurythere is a 3 second daily before it restarts, that should be enough if you retry and know what to look for
15:55:42igorskhm, shot a slow-mo video with my iphone, the error seems to appear immediately
15:56:33pamaurystrange, the sleep 3 is not taken into account then
15:58:24igorskadded sleep 10, now I can see the messages
16:00:48igorsklooks like $CONTENTS_PART is empty
16:01:32pamauryigorsk: for debug purposes, what you can do is edit and do the following:
16:01:32pamaurylcdmsg -l 0,0 `mount`
16:01:32pamaurysleep 10
16:01:32DBUGEnqueued KICK pamaury
16:01:37pamauryby the way, VERY IMPORTANT
16:01:49pamaurydo not mess with the nvpflag fup 0xFFFFFFFF at the top
16:01:56pamauryalways do things AFTER this line
16:02:01igorskyeah, not touching it
16:02:16pamaurymaybe triple sure you script don't have a bad syntax (ie check syntax with bash in posix mode before running)
16:07:13igorsk(i think it has no bitmap for /)
16:10:04pamaurywell then remount should work, logically
16:12:11igorskmising awk?
16:13:47pamaurymaybe, this device is running an ancient version of everything
16:14:00pamaurywhich is why I didn't plan on supporting it
16:14:54pamauryI suggest you
16:14:54pamaurylcdmsg -l 0,0 `mount | grep contents`
16:14:54pamaurysee if the output is correct, if so then it's a problem with busybox's awk
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17:58:28robertd1Im trying to compile mknwzboot but i encountered an error gcc: error: directory-170404": No such file or directory
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20:12:44pamauryrobertd1: that's a strange, error could tell us more what exactly you run and all the error essage, your build environment, etc
20:13:17lebelliumpamaury: congrats for sound on E580, max volume is very low though. On A10 with latest patch 32: *panic* NWZ_AUDIO_GET_ALC_DATA_EX
20:15:25pamauryarg, the various differences between devices is going to kill me. As I exlained on the channel, there is an issue about to scale the volume to get it right. I haven't done many tests so far. On my E580, max volume is very high very my headphones
20:15:56lebelliumThat's why I'm here to test all players :D
20:17:43pamaurypart of the problem I an afraid is that 30 volume steps is few. I think we might want to either introduce more steps using DAC volume + sample rescaling, or a setting to change sample rescaling (some kind of "high gain" on/off setting)
20:17:47lebelliumvolume 0dB on E580 is like -35dB on Clip+
20:19:26lebelliumvolume steps shouldn't make a difference for max volume, only for steps between min and max volume
20:20:10lebelliumyou can achieve the same max volume with 30 or 100 steps
20:21:16pamauryexcept we don't control Sony's step, they have no relation to dB or anything
20:21:32robertd1pamaury i was following the instructions for the bootloader build for for the nWZA10, everything went well until the compile mknwzboot
20:21:54lebelliumrobertd1: I have a prebuilt bootloader for A10 if you want
20:22:28robertd1thank you lebellium I appreciate it.
20:22:57pamauryalso 30 steps is few. Imagine each step is 1dB, that's 30dB range, that's very little if you want to handle both very sensitive and no sensitive headphones
20:23:24robertd1Thank you !
20:23:40lebelliumpamaury: I agree that 30 steps is too few. But I thought it would be another problem as max volume
20:23:49pamauryrobertd1: this error is weird, it would be useful to understand the problem
20:24:01pamaurylebellium: not sure what you mean
20:24:22robertd1now im recompiling the toolchain, be right back
20:25:18lebelliumpamaury: that volume steps shouldn't make a difference for max volume. Logically these are 2 different problems. But you already replied that you don't control steps
20:27:00pamauryI don't control the DAC volume, it's given by sony. What I control is essentially how much of software pre-amplification I can do. Currently I am more or less do -25dB in software + Sony's volume
20:29:46lebelliumso it's the same DAC volume in OF? Would that mean that Sony is more agressive on pre-amplification since min and max volumes are much higher in OF with still 30 steps
20:30:09pamauryyes, and yes I guess
20:30:54pamauryI find Sony's player have a general high volume
20:31:13pamaury(with OF)
20:32:12lebelliumit's funny because usually people complain that max volume is not high on Sony players, especially with capped volume :)
20:32:39pamauryyeah but that's because people have not very sensitive headphones
20:35:17lebelliumthat's why you set the general volume very low so that the 1st steps are low enough for your sensitive earphones, thank you :P
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20:35:46pamauryI am the port developer :-p
20:41:16pamaurywhat I would like to do is mix pre-amplification and DAC volume to have a larger volume range
20:41:31pamaurybut it's tricky to do so if we don't know Sony's volume in dB
20:42:06lebelliumI can try to estimate dB of each of the 30 steps based on another target
20:42:13lebelliumbut I'm not sure it's a good idea
20:44:03pamauryit's only going to work for this target for HP with/without volume cap, we need something better
20:44:24pamaurySony's driver has some function (NWZ_AUDIO_GET_ALC_DATA_EX) to *I think* get the volume curve
20:44:35pamaurybut I can't make sense of the values, they must encoded in some way
20:46:49lebelliumThis function is my *panic* on A10 :P
20:48:47pamauryI know, but probably I something wrong or they changed the ioctl number, I mean Sony
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22:07:42lebelliumpamaury: also a strange bug I never saw on another target before, when you initialize the database, it remains stucked on "building database...0 found", the counter doesn't increase although it is actually really building it and display "please reboot to enable" if you wait
22:08:42pamauryit's probably due to it being to stupid to realize the filesystem has some loops
22:09:15pamauryit should start scanning in /contents/ instead of /
22:23:40pamaurydamn, Sony only uses completely undocument codecs, cs47L01, CXD3774GF, seriouly no google hit
22:26:39 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
22:38:01lebelliumpamaury: you can select directories to scan. I selected /contents/ but the counter is still displaying "0 found"
22:38:18lebelliumbuilding is faster though
22:38:20pamauryI don't know then. Does it ever finish ?
22:38:31lebelliumyes it works properly
22:38:32pamauryso it's only a display problem then ?
22:38:43lebelliumonly "X found" doesn't work so you don't know exactly what's going on
22:39:05pamaurymaybe it's related to jhMikes recent changes to database?
22:39:20pamauryI suggest you try on another player (non-NWZ) with current dev build
22:39:46lebelliumI already had the issue with earlier NWZ builds so i'm not sure it's related but I can check
22:44:22pamauryit would useful to know if it's specific to NWZ or not. I don't really see why it would be related NWZ. Or maybe it's a problem with hosted
22:44:44pamaurylooking at Sony's driver sound curve on the E580, I think it has 1.5dB per step at the beginning of the curve but then it maybe be 1dB or even 0.5dB but I'm not sure
22:44:58lebelliumI'm going to try on YH-820 but I can check on YP-R0 too
22:46:53 Quit Bilgus (Remote host closed the connection)
22:47:56 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik)
22:54:25lebelliumYH-820: there is a message "building.... xxxx" then "commiting database X/9" on top of "building database ... 0 found" (weird...) while on hosted like YP-R0 and NWZ you only have the message "0 found" in background, no message displayed on top
22:54:28***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:56:42 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.")
22:58:02 Join Bilgus [0] (~Bilgus@gateway/tor-sasl/bilgus)
22:59:00lebelliummessage on top of the same message seems to be the the normal behavior even on old builds
22:59:11lebelliumwhile hosted targets don't handle it, I don't know
23:00:03 Join paulk-elm_ [0] (~user@
23:02:34 Quit paulk-elm (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
23:10:01 Quit paulk-elm_ (Quit: Leaving)
23:29:28 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 52.0.2/20170323105023])

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