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#rockbox log for 2017-08-26

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01:46:36__builtinemailed sandisk again, "Sansa Fuze+ is one of our legacy MP3 player that we have stopped manufacturing long ago however we do have some units left in our stock. You may refer to the link here and avail 10% discount by using promo code L642Z."
01:46:57__builtinso it appears they are still selling old stock
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02:02:15Bilgus_ph@__builtin, I received my sansa clip zip today It's definitely NOS still not sure what V1 means
02:08:37_megagain clipzip
02:08:47_meg$119.00 + $3.99 shipping ?
02:13:52Bilgus_phno 30 + $6 sh - 10%
02:14:04Bilgus_phI think i'll buy 4 more
02:19:14Bilgus_ph$125.48 for 4
02:25:24_megare you in philipines
02:26:00Bilgus_phus-midwest
02:32:52_megwhy you need 5 then :)
02:34:55Bilgus_phill keep 2 for me sell 3 of em
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02:39:35_megahh, little jew biznez
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02:42:50Bilgus_phgotta strike the iron while its hot :)
02:42:58_megswap for samsung 64gb pro ?
02:45:15_megnot sure whole rockbox community will be happy about someone making trump style profit out of opensource spirit..
02:46:31Bilgus_phnot sure I particularly care
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02:48:16Bilgus_phI wonder if you have seen the prices of these old players I just paid $100 for a NOS clip zip 6 months ago
02:49:11Bilgus_phI'm sure this new stock on the market will depress prices a bit but they'll be back to gold prices after a while
02:53:10__builtinthere's nothing wrong with selling a player
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03:10:16Bilgus_phbbl
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04:02:20Bilgususvi, yes the V1 clip zip works with rockbox, kinda figured it would..
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10:27:25usviBilgus: this is most amazing news!
10:28:38usviI have 2 underway to my usa contact
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17:40:52LjL-Alplethey, do you know if a Sansa Fuze+ that bootloops after an attempted firmware update (original firmware, i think, not Rockbox) is typically salvageable in a software-only way?
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17:57:51Bilgusyou will need to be running linux but yes https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/Main/SansaFuzePlus#Recovery_mode
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17:59:56Bilguswe have a virtual machine that'll have most everything already set up for you here https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/DevelopmentGuide#Virtual_Machine_40Strongly_Recommended_41
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18:00:50Bilgus@ LjL-Alplet you will need to install the Oracle Virtual Box extras IIRC
18:03:15Bilgusand while you are at it you might as well install rockbox, and you might want to install a multiboot bootloader jic this is a sign of failing flash http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,51844.0.html
18:08:35LjL-Alpletthanks Bilgus. running Linux is not an issue, i have computers with Fedora and Debian. i do intend to install Rockbox if i can recover it, what i don't really want to do is use jtag or otherwise deal with hardware, since i'm no good at that
18:11:16Bilgusthe dev recovery guide above should work for you just keep in mind the VM if you have lots of issues, though it has a few gotchas as well
18:11:45LjL-AlpletBilgus, if this is likely to mean the flash is failing, though, that's important
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18:55:40pamauryLjL-Alplet: assuming that there is no hardware problem, recovery on the fuze+ is always possible
18:55:53pamaury(in a software-only way)
18:56:01LjL-Alpletmhm
18:56:24LjL-Alpletwell, we'll see, hopefully i can get a Fuze+ working fine
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19:02:11alexbobpLjL-Alplet: good luck!
19:02:18LjL-Alpletoh hi alexbobp
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19:03:15LjL-Alpletalexbobp, what do you use rockbox on?
19:04:10alexbobpLjL-Alplet: original sansa fuze remains my favorite mp3 player of all time
19:04:29alexbobpand I also have a clip zip
19:05:16LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i don't like the original Fuze as a matter of principle, because of the proprietary connector. i'd just lose it all the time like i do with my camera's
19:05:21alexbobpI actually have a fuze+ that I can't stand using because touch input fo ran mp3 player was an insane design choice
19:05:21LjL-Alpleti have a Clip Zip too
19:05:31pamauryLjL-Alplet: can you reach the usb mode?
19:05:37alexbobpoh yeah well that's a pretty valid point. though I have like 5 of those cables by now :P
19:06:00alexbobpit's just something I put up with because I haven't gotten as good an experience from any other DAP
19:06:08LjL-Alpletpamaury, i... don't know yet :P what this really is about is that i'm eyeing a used Fuze+ that i might get for very cheap due to it bootlooping
19:06:14alexbobpthe physical rotating wheel feels like it's what ipods were too cheap to be.
19:06:29alexbobpironic, I know, since apple started with a physical wheel and then switched to touch because it's supposed to be fancier, but it doesn't feel as good
19:10:08pamauryLjL-Alplet: ah I see :)
19:12:24LjL-Alpletalexbobp, physical rotation is alright and i am not really sure i'll like the touch, either
19:12:32LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i like touchscreens but touchpads annoy the hell out of me for example
19:12:45alexbobpLjL-Alplet: well this is touchpad, not touchscreen
19:12:56LjL-Alpletyep, so chances are it will annoy me, but we'll see
19:13:00alexbobpbut to make matters worse it's a touchpad overloaded to behave as a button pad with no feedback
19:13:00LjL-Alplet(or not, depending on how cheap i can get one)
19:13:12LjL-Alpletit ought to have vibration
19:13:12alexbobphow cheap are you getting it? and how much are you willing to balance cost over usability?
19:13:27alexbobpI don't think these devices have the power for vibration
19:13:46LjL-Alpletalexbobp, vibration doesn't take a LOT of power, smartwatches with tiny batteries offer it
19:13:58LjL-Alpletand for simple touch feedback, very short vibrations are generally employed
19:14:20LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i don't really know how much i'm getting one for but i think i'm going to give up unless i can pay €20 plus shipping top
19:15:03alexbobpLjL-Alplet: can't you get a clip zip new for not much more?
19:15:15LjL-Alpletalexbobp, well but i have a clip zip :P
19:15:22alexbobpthen why do you want a downgrade?
19:15:28*LjL-Alplet shrugs
19:15:38alexbobplook, the fuze+ is *horrible* :P
19:15:40alexbobpyou are warned
19:15:42LjL-Alpletbigger screen, the Sansas are just interesting
19:15:47alexbobpunbricking it will just be the start of your pain xD
19:15:48LjL-Alpleti also have a Clip+... ;x
19:15:56alexbobpthe clip+ is awesome
19:15:58alexbobpnot comparable
19:16:00LjL-Alpleti prefer the Zip
19:16:06alexbobpwell of course
19:16:14alexbobpit's just newer and better
19:16:19alexbobpbut I'd take a clip+ over a fuze+ too :P
19:16:24LjL-Alpletalexbobp, yes, but there are several newer ones that aren't better at all
19:16:27alexbobpI'd take almost anything with buttons over a fuze+
19:16:33LjL-Alplet(like pretty much all newer Sansas)
19:16:36alexbobpother than one of the really old ones with no microsd slot
19:16:58alexbobpI don't even know what models they have these days
19:16:59alexbobpthe sport?
19:17:01LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i might also give one of those three to other people, and it's not going to be the best of the bunch ;)
19:17:09LjL-Alpletyes the sport but i don't think that's the only one
19:17:15LjL-Alpleti don't remember the names, they are underwhelming
19:17:41alexbobpI dunno, their current offerings just look like minor upgrades to the clip zip
19:17:47alexbobpI am sure I'd like them as long as they run rockbox :P
19:18:00LjL-Alpletalexbobp, but they aren't upgrades and that's why they can't run rockbox :P
19:18:08LjL-Alpletthey have much dumber chipsets
19:18:11alexbobpwell screw that then
19:19:27alexbobpit's amazing how their "update" to 10 year old products is just to find a way to cheap out more on manufacturing them >_<
19:21:34Bilgusthey have the clip zip for 30 and fuze+ for 50 at the sandisk store
19:22:09Bilgusonly in US and have to find them with search but they are there
19:22:34BilgusI own a clip+ which is my fav of all time, a fuze+ and now a clipzip
19:23:01Bilgusthe fuze+ has a touchpad that is one of the worst abominations i've ever seen
19:24:14BilgusWith rockbox it is at least usable, and it inspired me to make a softlock which is in main line now that helps too but the damn thing has no clip so you need a case if you don't lock the keys it triggers all over the place
19:24:22Bilgusbattery life is pretty good
19:25:22Bilgusif I had the choice between a free fuze+ and a $20 clip+ or clipzip I'd get the clips
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19:29:55alexbobpsame
19:30:10alexbobpbtw Bilgus the clip itself isn't an issue. it's easy to order a nice standalone clip that comes with mounting tape
19:30:21alexbobpso I put clips onto my fuzes that way
19:30:54alexbobpbut mostly... a big color screen just doesn't matter much to a DAP's job
19:31:42Bilgusno it is a nice little gaming device though but really meh I have a DAP for one reason and I expect it to do it well
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19:33:55alexbobpgaming device? kind of I guess :P
19:34:09alexbobpactually... to be fair, the gameboy color emulation can be a lot of fun on the fuze
19:34:23alexbobpbothing else has a big enough screen, except the fuze+, which has maddeningly horrible controls
19:34:31alexbobp*nothing
19:34:39Bilgusoh I have a ipod nano as well but I gave that to my kid
19:42:01LjL-AlpletBilgus, i am probably not going to use the Fuze+ primarily as a music player at all, but the fact it has a touchpad and a bigger screen may actually make it more useful as a nifty thing to use for unforeseen purposes
19:42:02LjL-Alpletthat was my thought at least in eyeing it
19:42:29LjL-Alpletalso, the Clip+ is more expensive on our Amazon than the Clip Zip... meaning that the latter was around €50 last i checked, while the former was over €100
19:42:40LjL-Alpletconsidering i paid both of them less than €25 back when i bought them, that's a bit ridiculous
19:43:12Bilgusyeah I paid $100 for a NOS clip+ when my other died
19:43:38LjL-Alplet:(
19:44:02LjL-Alpleti like the way the Clip+ looks better than the Clip Zip
19:44:06LjL-Alpletbut i kinda hate its screen
19:44:24LjL-Alpletthe "fake colors" are lame i think, and it flickers annoyingly to my eyes
19:46:58LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i'd probably like the wheel in the original Fuze... but i can't help considering the weird cable a dealbreaker
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20:00
20:09:11alexbobpearly gen ipod nanos are really cool. I like how they use an LCD where you can turn the brightness all the way down, and then see it both in the dark or in broad daylight with reflected light
20:09:24alexbobpif they only had the microsd slot they might compete with sandisk for my favorite player
20:10:10alexbobpLjL-Alplet: and you're not wrong about the weird way the monochrome displays scan
20:10:21alexbobpit doesn't just flicker to your eyes
20:10:55LjL-Alpletalexbobp, other people have said they don't notice it though, so i guess it's subjective how noticeable (or annoying) it is
20:12:00LjL-Alpletalexbobp, also, it's unrelated to rockbox, but about "reflected light" screens, i've been looking at these Amazfit semi-smart-watches sold by Xiaomi (the Bip model is in Chinese only for now but it'll be out in English soon) that have screens like that. i really want one because finally the battery life is something sensible
20:12:12LjL-Alpletpartly/mainly thanks to the screen being reflective
20:24:57alexbobpLjL-Alplet: I only notice it if I'm glancing around or moving the player itself rapidly
20:25:09alexbobpbut not while actually trying to read stuff on the screen
20:25:41alexbobpLjL-Alplet: are you not familiar with pebble watches? smart watches with transflective displays and awesome battery life are not new :P
20:26:58LjL-Alpletalexbobp, "awesome" battery lives? they do like 5 days when you're lucky
20:27:22LjL-Alpletthe Bip has a claimed 45-day battery life with low use, and 4 month if you use it as a watch only with no "smart" functionality except the step counter
20:27:43LjL-Alpletwhile the Pace goes back to a 5-day life similar to the Pebble, while having much superior hardware, and running Android...
20:28:14alexbobpLjL-Alplet: awsome battery lives for an always-on net connected device? yeah I think so. pebble is also around 5 days
20:28:24LjL-Alpleti am annoyed enough by smartphones having to be charged every couple of days to be bothered doing that with *watches*. that's just not happening.
20:28:38LjL-Alpletalexbobp, did you miss the part where the one i want to buy is 45 days?
20:28:39alexbobpthat thing's running android?
20:28:55alexbobpyou want to buy the one with no screen?
20:29:01LjL-Alpletthe Pace is running Android, and has a roughly 5-day battery life. the Bip is running its own thing, and has a 45-day battery life.
20:29:02LjL-Alplet...
20:29:08LjL-Alplet"no screen"? what the heck are you talking about
20:29:16alexbobpwait no nevermind
20:29:18alexbobpthat's another thing
20:29:32alexbobpsorry, they don't have the bip on their normal products list, lemme find it
20:29:34LjL-Alplethttp://www.startlr.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/AmazfitBipE.png this is the Bip, it has a screen
20:29:52alexbobpok, that looks pretty neat actually
20:29:57alexbobpand it gets notifications and all the good stuff?
20:30:03LjL-Alpletalexbobp, they likely don't because you looked at the English page and they have no English version out yet
20:30:13LjL-Alpletalexbobp, yes, and it has a heartrate sensor and a GPS
20:30:17LjL-Alpletbut it does not run custom apps
20:30:22LjL-Alpletfor that matter, neither does the Pace by default
20:30:31LjL-Alpletbut it runs Android and they can just be installed through ADB
20:30:37LjL-Alplet(the Pace, not the Bip)
20:31:04LjL-Alplet(with the Bip i'll just have to trade the ability to run my own apps against more than a month of battery life, and that's a tradeoff i'm willing to make9
20:31:14alexbobpfair enough
20:31:59LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i actually made a somewhat detailed comparison at http://outcasts.referata.com/wiki/Amazfit mostly to clarify it in my own head
20:31:59alexbobpthe pebble's main value proposition comes down to a few very specific things for me. notification display, and active media playback control.
20:32:16alexbobpso I could consider a smartwatch without apps (though wouldn't be willing to pay as much of course)
20:32:49alexbobpbut the second thing, in particular, massively benefits from the pebble having physical buttons and not jumping on the touchscreen bandwagon
20:33:00alexbobpI am not going to toleate having to *look* at my wristwatch to successfully pause and unpause a podcast
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20:33:39LjL-Alpletalexbobp, the Amazfit have the ability to control music, but you actually have to press a physical button to "unlock" and *then* start using the touchscreen, so they would not be ideal for quickly controlling music
20:34:13alexbobpyeah that's the thing that really gets me
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20:34:30alexbobpI don't know a nice way to put this... watches that are primarily controlled via touchscreen is just a really freaking stupid idea
20:34:39LjL-Alpletalexbobp, i would more than tolerate a touchscreen for that, though, if the software were engineered for that purpose... namely, if i could just use swipes/gestures without a need to *look* at the screen than i would be fine with that
20:35:00alexbobpI'm not against *having* a touchscreen but as soon as they go and design the UIs to make me use it, it has failed at any kind of basic usability for a watch
20:35:12LjL-Alpleti can't say i fully agree
20:35:15alexbobpactually you make a good point
20:35:20alexbobpa gesture based os could make it work
20:35:37alexbobpI just haven't seen any passable attempt at this yet, and just having buttons seems like a simple solution and works very very well for me
20:35:45LjL-Alpletwell, most (all?) smartwatches that are based on a touchscreen *have* basic swiping gestures
20:35:49LjL-Alpletthey just may not be the ones you want
20:35:58LjL-Alpletbut that's a matter of configurability, nothing intrinsic
20:36:03alexbobpyeah but I mean gestures that are designed to be eyeball free
20:36:27alexbobpeg, in android for watches, you can swipe between your apps, but you still have to look or you couldn't possibly know which one you've swiped to
20:36:28LjL-Alpleti'd say that the gestures that simply consist in swiping from one of the four edges qualify
20:36:41alexbobpyeah but there needs to be some kind of absolute reference
20:36:44LjL-Alpletand those are the ones generally employed, of course it means they're limited to 4 unless you start using combos
20:37:00LjL-Alpletyeah, hence configurability of what the gestures *do*
20:37:06alexbobpthe thing with pebble is I can tap back a few times, and expect to be on my watchface, and then I can hold one of the hotkey buttons to get straight to the media control app
20:37:10alexbobpso I never have to look
20:37:15LjL-Alpletif they were configurable you could just assign them to non-stateful things
20:37:33LjL-Alpletand use more complicated ways to interact for stateful things (since you will have to look either way)
20:37:52alexbobpyeah
20:38:02alexbobpwell if a watch shows on the market that does that in a passable way, I'll consider it
20:38:09alexbobpand the other thing is, the apps themselves would have to, as well
20:38:23alexbobpit's not enough to have an absolute gesture that gets me to the media control app without looking, if I then have to look for the play button to tap
20:38:23LjL-Alpletassuming it has apps!
20:38:29alexbobpwell built in apps included.
20:38:34LjL-Alpletokay
20:38:40alexbobpmy point is, android wear lets me swipe to the apps, but then each app is just a panel with buttons
20:38:46LjL-Alpletwell, the Pace can be tweaked and there are already custom ROMs for it
20:38:46alexbobpso it is a really bad solution for me
20:38:51LjL-Alpletbut with the Bip that's a complete unknown
20:39:12LjL-AlpletGadgetbridge people have just added firmware flashing support, but that doesn't mean anyone has a clue how to change the firmware, since it's fully proprietary afaik
20:39:24alexbobpoh that is cool
20:39:33LjL-Alpletthe Pace doesn't run Android Wear (Chinese things typically don't), it runs Android
20:39:35alexbobpI didn't know gadgetbridge was going to keep expanding to more smartwatches. I approve.
20:39:43alexbobpahh
20:39:54alexbobpthis is sounding jankier and jankier
20:39:55LjL-Alpletalexbobp, if the Bip weren't supported by Gadgetbridge, i'd probably not get it
20:40:05alexbobpos the watch runs android, but won't have support for any of my apps with android wear apps?
20:40:05LjL-Alpleti am not a fan of having random chinese proprietary apps on my phone
20:40:10alexbobpthat seems epically pointless
20:40:32LjL-Alpletalexbobp, well yes they don't really even *tell* you it uses Android, it's just what they picked as an underlying base
20:40:45LjL-Alpletit's just that XDA quickly found out and saw that you can install stuff using ADB
20:40:53LjL-Alpletanyway, the one i'm mostly interested in is the Bip
20:41:29LjL-Alpletthe OS may be simple and not tweakable at all but any battery life below 10 days or so is a no go, i've decided, so the Bip is pretty much the only watch i would consider
20:42:09alexbobpthe pace is actually a really tempting proposition for my dad. he's a runner.
20:42:19alexbobpthe operating phone-free functionality would make sense for him.
20:42:31alexbobpfor me, I don't care about having an independent gps in my watch, or music storage, for example
20:42:36LjL-Alpletalexbobp, why not the Bip then? for activity tracking, they are roughly equivalent
20:42:43LjL-Alpletthey both have heartrate and GPS
20:42:50alexbobpdoes the bip do bluetooth audio?
20:43:04LjL-Alpletah, no, that might be nice for runners who like to listen to music while running
20:43:13alexbobpyeah exactly. my dad listens to podcasts while running generally
20:43:16LjL-Alpletalexbobp, keep in mind the Pace is about twice the price of the Bip though
20:43:22alexbobphe actually uses standalone sandisk players alongside his standalone running watch
20:43:28alexbobpso I don't think he'd mind a device that does both
20:43:33LjL-Alpletmakes sense
20:43:58LjL-Alpletyeah, i guess the Pace is "a Bip for people who don't want to carry a smartphone too"
20:43:59LjL-Alpletin a sense
20:44:07LjL-Alplet(or rather the reverse since the Pace came out first)
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20:46:16alexbobp"It is rated IP68, though apparently not recommended for swimming."
20:46:19alexbobpthat doesn't make sense
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21:46:51LjL-Lapletbleh
21:47:00LjL-Lapletanyone who might want a cheap Fuze+ here is in the UK?
21:48:25LjL-Lapletwell, the bootlooping Fuze+ is http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/282618047758 but i can't get it because he said he'll only post to the UK, so
21:48:41LjL-Lapletbut to be fair
21:49:13 Join dys [0] (~dys@tmo-123-151.customers.d1-online.com)
21:49:14LjL-Lapleti am not sure i would feel entirely comfortable with a seller who responds with "Sorry I didn t know how to post abroad therefore it is for UK only"
21:49:25LjL-Lapletin principle, even if i were in the UK, that would sound somewhat concerning ;(
21:49:58LjL-Lapleteven if it's just an excuse because they don't feel like doing it, it's a pretty ridiculous one at that
22:00
22:03:50 Quit dovber__ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
22:15:43LjL-Lapletalexbobp, this has a reflective screen and good physical buttons, not too cheap though http://www.ebay.it/itm/302428722139
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23:16:12alexbobpLjL: but bluetooth notifications? :o
23:16:25alexbobpgotta be able to read my emails and stuff
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