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#rockbox log for 2017-09-01

00:00:05[Saint]This makes the most sense in the hosted platforms. In fact, it's almost impossible to do with the current engine on non-hosted/touchscreen devices as a couple of the methods I'm (ab)using rely in part on skin engine features exclusive to touchscreen or "touchscreen" devices, like the linux-y hosted ports and the SDL application.
00:02:44[Saint]I can do most of the theme assets with negative offset and relative positioning, and govern a few factors based on the currently selected userfont.
00:03:22[Saint]But to really do it neatly and without fundamental changes to the theme engine I need to do something slightly stupid, like preloading ~60MB of fonts.
00:03:35[Saint]...which I assume people are gonna feel some ways about.
00:04:36__builtinthat leaves plenty of memory!
00:04:58__builtin64 - 60 = 4 MB on the 6G :)
00:05:26[Saint]Heh, ...yeah. One can see why this only really makes sense on hosted platforms.
00:06:05[Saint]It had crossed my mind that someone would (rightly so) take some objection to such a wasteful use of theme buffer.
00:06:49 Quit _meg (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
00:07:06[Saint]Hell, one of the fonts I'm using on my own 4K SDL build is just under 90MB itself.
00:07:26 Join _meg [0] (~notsure@211.25.203.45)
00:07:32[Saint]Though I can get that down to "only" ~15MB or so with glyph cache.
00:07:59 Join Huntereb [0] (~Huntereb@d-209-42-136-145.cpe.metrocast.net)
00:08:42[Saint]Basically, I want the SDL application to be not only useful to Joe User, but an attractive option. It actually really does make a bloody good desktop player.
00:10:12[Saint]I figured out a way to make a nice little settings/options panel for SBS/WPS/FMS etc, so that users can select layout options from the theme itself.
00:10:46[Saint]But there's no way to make it persist as yet, and I suspect that people aren't going to be happy with me if I add a dummy config.cfg parameter?
00:12:17[Saint]Because if I could save those values to a string I can parse out from config.cfg I can make the layout options persist across boot, as it is there's no way to do that and it'll default to its original state when switching between screens or at shutdown/startup.
00:12:53[Saint]I only need one dummy config option, I can just save multiple options there and parse them out from that string.
00:16:57[Saint]The things I'm thinking of that this would be useful for are things like:
00:16:57[Saint] - turning album art display on/off
00:16:57[Saint] - adjusting size or position of elements (like large/medium/small album art, or centered/left/right album art)
00:16:57DBUGEnqueued KICK [Saint]
00:16:57[Saint] - turning theme elements on or off entirely
00:16:57[Saint] - governing font size on a per-asset basis from the theme itself
00:17:34[Saint]...it would really open up a lot of avenues for me if I could utilize a dedicated config option for these types of thing.
00:18:24[Saint]I know I just shat out a bunch of thoughts on this topic, and that it's a lot to take in, and fairly radical changes from the status quo, but do you have any thoughts on this __builtin?
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00:20:19[Saint]It would be ideal if I could make use of multiple config.cfg options, but I /can/ do it with only one, it just makes the logic to write and parse out the values extremely complicated.
00:24:46[Saint]Basically I'm thinking of a config option along the lines of:
00:24:46[Saint]theme_settings: largealbumart,albumartleft,largefonts,accentcolouryellow,showrepeat,hideshuffle,smallbuttons
00:26:34[Saint]In my own theme I've been abusing config options that don't get used for the hosted platforms in order to provide persistence for theme customization options.
00:26:56[Saint]But I understand that that's ugly as hell and isn't ever going to fly in mainline.
00:28:42[Saint]JdGordon_: I know you're kinda disconnected from the theme engine and rockbox in general, but I value your input, and I would like to know what you think of such an approach or if you have any suggestions for more obvious or efficient ways of handling this.
00:29:17[Saint]gevaerts: same goes for you, I value your input and critical thinking also and would appreciate it if you could weigh in on this.
00:31:06__builtinsorry, walked off for a second
00:35:21__builtinso basically what I'm gathering is that you've implemented user-customizable themes, and want those theme settings to persist across boot?
00:37:59__builtinwhat would interpret the config value? the theme itself (through the engine), or something lower level?
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00:44:10BilgusJhMikes in theory if the nand on a clip+ were disabled at just the right time would the sd card get enumerated as drive0? or would it just fail?
00:44:17[Saint]The theme itself does all the display logic. I don't (yet) need to touch the engine itself at all.
00:44:21[Saint]__builtin: ^
00:44:42[Saint]But I would love a way to persist these across boot/window changes.
00:48:44Bilguswhat if instead of saving the settings you took a snapshot of the layout with marker patterns for the elements
00:49:15[Saint]Bilgus: well, yeah, I mean...that's nice, but where am I going to store it?
00:49:24Bilgusthen load the png and blit your elements to the proper boxes
00:49:45[Saint]As soon as I exit the screen (WPS/SBS/FMS, etc.) any configurable assets are lost.
00:50:48[Saint]Touchscreen (or "touchscreen", like SDL/hosted) themes can set/read/clear a system that is specific and exclusive to touch enabled systems called "skin variables", and there's also a 'setting_set' them engine function also specific to touch enabled targets that can read/write/clear config.cfg values.
00:50:58Bilguswell what we talking about here 10 screens with 320x240 like what 30-40 kb
00:51:38***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00:51:57[Saint]I'm not sure you're understanding the issue here.
00:51:57[Saint]If I'm going to be making radical changes to the theme engine like that, I may as well just do it the right way and add my dummy config option.
00:52:18[Saint]Saving screenshots doesn't solve any immediate problem faced here.
00:54:02[Saint]Unless you could further explain your line of reasoning, because I just don't understand how that would help in this scenario.
00:54:25[Saint]It's not an attack or slight against you, I just don't see how it would help me or how you arrived at that suggestion.
00:56:48Bilguswell I assume what you are trying to prevent is having to re-calculate the offsets etc and currently the theme engine uses png files loaded from disk so you could calculate once and then copy it to the whole screen, but you are trying to do this all through the current theme engine yeah i'm not sure how thatd work
00:56:48[Saint]I /think/ I understand it, but it seems unreasonably complicated compared to just saving a variable's value and parsing it out from a concatenated config string.
00:57:36[Saint]No no, sorry, these assets by the very nature of the screen engine itself are predefined and won't ever change and don't need to be recalculated.
00:57:58[Saint]I just need a method of persistence for skin variable values.
00:59:21[Saint]Currently skin variables are cleared when entering/exiting a screen (which makes a lot of sense and I wouldn't want to change this).
00:59:58[Saint](and, FWIW, we don't use PNG)
01:00
01:01:05Bilgusoh I guess they are all bmps huh
01:01:47[Saint]Yes.
01:02:21Bilgusi'll bbiab
01:02:31[Saint]To make it somewhat clearer (perhaps), every possible combination of theme assets and their positons are already calculated and predefined.
01:02:53[Saint]I just need a method of persisting a their states.
01:03:46[Saint]Otherwise even going from the WPS to the main menu...boom, anything you changed is gone.
01:05:12[Saint]One method I had considered (because I'm a crazy masochist, apparently) is implementing *everything* in the WPS itself. Main menu, settings, ...everything.
01:05:28[Saint]It's possible, but I'm not /that/ determined...yet.
01:06:06[Saint]I don't need to worry about values not persisting across screen transitions if I never trainsition from any screen. ;)
01:06:38[Saint]But then I still have to contend with these values being lost at shutdown, so I didn't entertain this idea much.
01:10:47[Saint]__builtin: the more I think about it the more I see that I only really have one option, the dedicated config value. Do you think people would be pissed off about this? A few bytes binsize increase, only on touch/hosted platforms?
01:12:42[Saint]Perhaps it would be cleaner to save and read these values from the theme's own .cfg, but that requires more changes to the theme engine that I would realistically like, and I'm not entirely sure how I would achieve this.
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01:48:52Bilgus_ph[Saint]: I guess I really don't see any way you could possibly persist the vars without changing the theme engine
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02:10:26__builtin[Saint]: would each theme have common settings? i.e. noalbumart, etc.?
02:10:39__builtinif they do, it'd make sense to have it in the global .cfg file
02:12:48__builtinI don't see an issue with it personally, but themes aren't my thing
02:13:07__builtinsince it seems to be a pretty major change, you should probably send something to the mailing list
02:15:26__builtinwell, not too major, since it would only touch hosted targets, but still
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02:22:28__builtinit's probably worth just getting some more opinions than just those on IRC :)
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08:29:16Guest97470Hey guys, just a short question. Is it possible to hide some entries like "recording" in the quickmenu of my Sansa Fuze V1? Thanks
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09:38:44johnb3quickmenu or main menu?
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12:21:33pamauryBozhan: any luck with fuze+ recovery mode?
12:32:57Bilgus@ Pamaury, no he keeps getting Bozhan_> with the sansarecovery and transfer size 64 I have transfer error at send step 141 but status passed
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12:34:13Bilgusthat was after restarting the device
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12:53:57Bozhan_I'm keep trying but without success
12:55:01Bozhan_I cannot upload recovery or original firmware on fee1:dead device. Did not accept protocol parameter.
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13:23:52[Saint]I've been thinking about my idea, and I think I'm going to go with two very small additions to the theme system.
13:27:20[Saint]I'll add a variation of the skin variable theme tags setting_set/get that reads from a config file in the theme folder (so /.rockbox/wps/theme_name/something-I-haven't-figured-out-the-naming-schema-of-yet.cfg
13:29:04[Saint]And I'll need to change checkwps so that it doesn't complain about the second config file being in the theme folder.
13:30:06[Saint]All in all I think that this is the most minimally invasive way of being able to allow persistent theme settings.
13:31:30[Saint]The skin variable system is only available to touch/app/hosted platforms, so other targets won't need to worry about the few bytes binsize increase.
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13:43:26johnb3Guest97470: if it's about the main menu, see: https://download.rockbox.org/manual/rockbox-sansaclipzip/rockbox-buildch13.html#x15-34900013.1
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14:26:59wodzhmm, can't quite understand how this ATJ DAC takes data (this or I can't use dma correctly)
14:29:50gevaerts[Saint]: I don't like the idea of one single setting with dozens of things in there
14:30:32gevaertsNot sure if I think such settings belong in the main config file or another one at the moment
14:33:07gevaertsHmmm
14:34:23[Saint]Yeah, it's a tough consideration that last one.
14:34:48[Saint]I'm not sure whether I would want them in the main config or a dedicated theme config.
14:34:51gevaertsIf you go for a separate file, you might be able to use apps/plugins/lib/configfile.c
14:35:13[Saint]The latter makes more sense because different themes could then have different defined settings
14:35:54[Saint]If it's all in the main config you would need to name them uniquely or have collisions.
14:36:12gevaertsYes, that and IIRC the central settings mechanism doesn't really handle random strings, it's optimised for the known-at-compile-time case
14:36:39[Saint]So I /think/ the dedicated theme config is the better idea but if anyone else comes up with a better one I'm open to hearing it.
14:37:35gevaertsI think it's the easiest to get working, and probably the one with the least risk
14:37:50[Saint]Regardless of where they're located having multiple config options instead of a single one with a concatenated settings string definitely makes the skin logic simpler.
14:38:48gevaertsYes
14:38:49[Saint]And making it simple to deploy is key to adoption I suppose.
14:39:29gevaertsThe *only* advantage of a single "big" setting is easy integration in the main settings system. All of its other features are disadvantages
14:39:56[Saint]Yes.
14:43:14[Saint]I would need to predefine some "settings" in order to use the existing settings_set/settings_get option, but I'm not sure if I can actually do that without having an actual menu entry for it, can j?
14:43:17[Saint]*I
14:43:49[Saint]Can I define a config option without connecting it to a menu entry?
14:44:08[Saint]Or the voice/translation system.
14:44:19gevaertsI don't know. If you can't, that can probably be fixed
14:44:30gevaertsBut you'd still need the predefinition
14:44:38[Saint]Yes.
14:46:36gevaertsI'd just use the pluginlib configfile mechanism
14:46:53[Saint]I'm not aware of it in any capacity.
14:47:05gevaertsI wasn't either, ten minutes ago :)
14:47:11[Saint]Hah. :)
14:47:23gevaertsapps/plugins/lib/configfile.h
14:47:25gevaerts(and c)
14:48:27[Saint]I could at least define some simple options worth persisting and worth making configurable without having to have a separate theme for each minor iteration.
14:49:59[Saint]Things like album art on/of, small/medium/large, font size small/medium/large, accent colour red/blue/yellow/.../
14:50:57[Saint]I don't want to go crazy being able to turn every single theme element on or off or have a bunch of different size and position settings for every single asset.
14:51:36[Saint]Perhaps something like "button size small/medium/large" would be useful too.
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14:52:11gevaertsHmmm, if you're going to deal with colour names, will you use the html names, the x11 names, or the xkcd names?
14:52:25[Saint]Basically all the simple tools you need to make a resolution agnostic theme functional in a wider range of circumstances.
14:52:59[Saint]I mean...am I reaching, or is this a useful idea?
14:53:36gevaertsI think it can work
14:53:40[Saint]I want to make the concept of themes for hosted platforms more versatile in terms of screen resolution.
14:54:25gevaertsAlthough I'm sure there will be nasty edge cases once you get things going :)
14:54:34[Saint]Because having to have themes target a specific resolution is a pain in the tits. But I've come up with a few different methods to avoid having any backdrop bitmaps at all.
14:55:02[Saint]And that's the major hurdle. A backdrop bmp *must* match the target resolution.
14:55:45[Saint]So the only option is to not have one and just draw it in with a full screen viewport and the background colour option into the backdrop buffer.
14:56:24[Saint]I was pretty chuffed when I thought that one up.
14:56:31[Saint]Every now and then I have a small spark of a good idea.
14:56:36gevaerts:)
14:58:10Bozhan_<pamaury> Any other advice? Can I exclude hardware issue?
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15:19:16pamauryBozhan: I don't know what to think. I'm starting to suspect a hardware issue.
15:19:47pamaurythat or your fuze+ is somehow a modified fuze+ with different hardware
15:21:36Bozhan_Is there any chance to check? I can open it.
15:21:48wodzLooks like on ATJ DAC fifo requests always in 32bit chunks and discards first 16bit of data. This doesn't sound like rockbox pcm compatible feature :/
15:22:52pamauryBozhan: I doubt you could see it if it was a different one, a part could be slightly different, I don't know. But that still seems unlikely because Sansa has not released any firmware upgrade recently, I don't see why they would suddenly change the hardware and the software without a release.
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16:14:22Bozhan_Is it possible to boot from SD card?
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16:29:44pamauryBozhan: kind-of-yes (it's possible to make the device boot from SD once, but making this behavior permanent is tricky, it requires playing around with the write protected EEPROM on the PCB). Also I doubt it iwll solve the problem, since if you can't boot from recovery mode, it will most likely fail with SD mode too. Somehow I suspect the problem is related to the RAM
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17:49:45jrsharp_hello all
17:50:50jrsharp_anyone here happen to know which signals are connected on the iPod nano 1G dock connector? (I'm looking for GPIO for possible external peripherals development)
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20:49:13Saratoga_jrsharp_: serial port, line in/out, usb
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23:26:29__builtinhmm, could we make releases a periodic thing again?
23:27:26__builtinmaybe not the 3 month cycles we had before 3.13, but perhaps every 6 or 12
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23:31:42pamaury__builtin: yeah that could be a good idea
23:32:26__builtinthat way we at least get any work that's accumulated over the past X months "into the wild", so to speak
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