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#rockbox log for 2017-10-07

00:01:54 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.)
00:08:46 Quit petur (Remote host closed the connection)
00:09:13__builtinhmm, why the heck is quake doing bit operations using floats casted to ints?!
00:10:13 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [Firefox 56.0/20170926190823])
00:30:44Bilgus'CH23> Bilgus: how can i boot from the internal memory, without editing the µSD card?' take the memory card out while player is off then re-insert after it boots
00:31:32BilgusOR boot just like normal then go to the rockbox.sansa file in the internal memory and run it
00:44:04 Join harlock [0] (~harlock@167.114.84.133)
00:44:49harlockis there any way to totally remove ios from my ipod video (5th gen)? i have rockbox running, and that is all i want. i dont want it to ever ever ever try to boot ios.
00:47:54gevaertsharlock: have a look at https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IpodPatcher
00:56:27harlockoh its not hard at all
00:56:31harlockgevaerts: thanks!
01:00
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01:22:56__builtinugh, this is pretty much impossible to debug
01:31:17jhMikeS__builtin: talking about this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
01:31:56__builtinno, not that
01:32:10__builtinit's in the bytecode interpreter for QuakeC
01:33:21__builtinit does boolean operations on floats
01:33:48__builtinas in, c->_float = (int)a->_float & (int)b->_float;
01:35:32gevaerts& isn't boolean!
01:35:53jhMikeSIt just ands two integers and assigns it back to a float
01:36:54__builtinwell, it does boolean ops on them as well
01:37:10jhMikeSthat's valid too
01:38:26 Quit ender (Quit: Remember: A secretary isn't permanent until she's been screwed on the desk.)
01:45:25***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:49:09__builtinyes, it's pretty weird though
01:58:19BilgusjhMikeS, what other plans do you have for the g#1556?
01:58:22fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #1556 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1556 : 3Allow mounting of any directory as the root directory. by Michael Sevakis
01:59:17AldemHello rockboxers
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04:53:23jhMikeSBilgus: none whatsoever without another FS code update
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10:39:14 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
10:40:36lebelliumpamaury: did you get something from him https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-zx300-coming-soon.854693/page-64#post-13767409 ?
10:47:16pamaurylebellium: yes i have the model id
10:49:33lebelliumIt's a pity we can't find service manuals anymore
10:49:38lebelliumthere are all model IDs in
10:51:04pamauryyeah...
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12:25:39 Join CH23 [0] (4dfa0218@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.250.2.24)
12:26:16CH23Bilgus: thanks, i was hoping there'd be a button combo at boot to make it switch, much like it can to the og firmware.
12:27:08CH23also another somewhat silly question: would it be possible to write software to make the fm radio work with DAB+
12:30:23 Quit CH23 (Client Quit)
12:36:46BilgusCH23, on some devices that would be fine but not on all since there aren't a lot of bytes left to shoehorn it into the bootloader
12:39:09Bilgusbut we could maybe write a stub loader that sat on the card and gets loaded from the bootloader then does a menu that lets you select something but it seems pretty convoluted for not much gain
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12:46:15fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 7eb240a, 273 builds, 12 clients.
12:59:13fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 777 seconds.
12:59:14fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision 7eb240a result: All green
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13:00
13:00:30 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@d192-24-173-177.try.wideopenwest.com)
13:03:34lebelliummay an head-fier ask in the https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sony-nw-zx300-coming-soon.854693/ thread to try out the latest scsitool version?
13:04:52 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
13:07:05pamaurylebellium: I answered the guy by email
13:07:22lebelliumok
13:07:23pamauryI asked him to run more tests to get the kas and other things
13:07:47pamaurybut still interested in people running pamaury/36b9c79b936abf300bfd203a295029ca">https://gist.github.com/pamaury/36b9c79b936abf300bfd203a295029ca on a NW-ZX300 or NW-A40
13:07:52pamauryeven NW-A30
13:08:25lebelliumA40 is not released yet I think
13:08:40pamauryyeah but in the future
13:08:49pamauryI guess any new player basically
13:09:35lebelliumeven about http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,51792.0.html
13:09:50lebelliumthere are hundreds users on head-fi but no one bothering making some tests
13:11:21pamauryyeah that's annoying
13:11:45lebelliumif it was risky I may understand
13:11:56lebelliumbut it's just about reading some information
13:13:20lebelliumI don't want to sign up on head-fi just to tell people off so it would be nice if an head-fier here can try to convince people on head-fi we need their help as beta testers
13:15:35lebelliumbtw, how do you find the NWZ-A10? Did you play with it?
13:16:57pamauryI didn't play with it a lot but the screen is very nice
13:17:07pamauryI think I prefer the form factor of the 585 though
13:17:16pamaurythe keys on the A10 are a bit weird
13:18:12lebelliumyeah I don't like the "back" and "option" keys
13:18:30pamauryI have also bought some extension cable for the wm-port, I'm trying to hack them, I suspect it's possible to obtain a serial console with the wm-port
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13:45:39***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
13:53:33pamaurylebellium: I've found a NWZ-S764BT on leboncoin, buying it ;
13:53:42lebelliumleave it to me :(
13:54:13lebelliumI still don't have any S7XX grrr
13:54:25lebelliumI should look at leboncoin more often
13:55:08pamaurylebellium: to be honest I don't do much with those players. If you are interested and once I've ported the to the S760 and possibly made bluetoooth work I can give you the S750 and S760
13:55:52lebelliumI'm sure I don't do more than you with them :P
13:56:51lebelliumand when from time to time I want to use a player I don't usually use, then most likely the battery is empty
13:57:04lebelliumcollecting DAPs is the worst choice ever :D
13:58:31pamauryyes :) but at least you are collecting them, I just port to them and never use them again
13:58:44pamauryand then I pile them in a box and forget about them
14:00
14:00:00lebelliumwe'll see later when you give me back the S540 and A860 if I can accept the S750 and S760 or it's a too big gift \o/
14:00:10lebelliumif*
14:02:14pamauryI still need to decide what to do about the A860 bootloader, do you think I should make it touch screen aware or is it sufficiently with the buttons?
14:05:58lebelliumI think it would be nice to have it screen touch aware too. Then if someone has a broken button, it could be still used ?
14:07:12pamauryit's just a lot more work because we don't have gestures in rockbox and I guess that's what is most natural for the bootloader. I'll have try at it
14:08:50lebelliumyou mean swiping left/right or up/.down?
14:09:45pamauryyes
14:10:30pamauryI mean I'm lying a bit, we have gegstures for lists in rockbox, but the bootloader cannot include all of that stuff
14:15:37lebelliumok
14:15:49lebelliumit it's so much work, don't bother with it then
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15:20:12 Join man_in_shack [0] (~chat@unaffiliated/man-in-shack/x-4279753)
15:20:49man_in_shackwelp, my sansa clip+ is dying
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15:42:17Bilgusok.
15:45:40***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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15:48:09man_in_shackfinally making progress on it now. managed to get it mounted in stock firmware mode
15:52:04Bilgusyour best bet is probably to put the multiboot bootloader on there and starting running from the SD card instead
15:52:27Bilgushttp://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,51844.0.html
15:53:55man_in_shacklooks like a broken filesystem on system device
15:54:01man_in_shack.rockbox dir is screwed up
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15:57:32Bilgusits a sign of the internal flash being on its way out
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16:06:05man_in_shacki think i bricked it
16:08:49man_in_shackok, is not bricked :)
16:09:14 Join alexweissman [0] (~alexweiss@c-68-50-12-70.hsd1.in.comcast.net)
16:22:54man_in_shackok, it died during firmware update :|
16:25:28man_in_shackrockbox bootloader is still there. is there a way to force it into bootloader usb mode?
16:30:24Bilgussure just hold the center button
16:30:54Bilguswhat do you mean it died during fw update?
16:31:12Bilgusit turns off automatically once the update is done
16:31:29man_in_shackit turned off after like 2 seconds
16:31:42man_in_shackstock firmware not booting now
16:31:43man_in_shackfun
16:31:48Bilgusyeah maybe thats a bit quick
16:32:30Bilgusthe rockbox bootloader handles the stock fw as well they are packaged together
16:32:39Bilgusare you using linux?
16:36:12man_in_shackyah
16:36:41man_in_shackthis is fun
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16:37:59Bilgusso does the bootloader still come up on boot?
16:39:05man_in_shacki got it to "loading firmware" and it takes ages to say "no file found"
16:40:09Bilguswhats the version on the bootloader
16:41:12man_in_shacki think it's fully bricked now
16:41:18man_in_shackwhen it was working, it was 4.00
16:41:42Bilgusis this a 4gb unit?
16:42:56man_in_shack8gb
16:43:21 Join dys [0] (~dys@tmo-100-123.customers.d1-online.com)
16:45:40Bilguswhat happens when you plug it into your pc?
16:49:55man_in_shacklinux is having trouble IDing the device
16:50:22man_in_shackgetting lots of "unable to enumerate device" in dmesg
16:51:07 Join voipmonk [0] (~voipmonk@138.68.2.1)
16:51:25Bilgusweird
16:51:32Bilguswhats lsusb show?
16:54:03man_in_shacksandisk corp. sansa clip+ (msc)
16:54:42man_in_shackseems i'm getting errors when trying to actually access the partition
16:54:54man_in_shackmass storage device comes up ok
16:55:24man_in_shackso you're probably right about the flash being the problem
16:55:28man_in_shackseems pretty dead
16:56:04Bilguswell if we can get multiboot on there it will still be a usable device
16:56:28Bilgushave you ever taken the clip+ apart?
16:56:33man_in_shackno
16:56:48Bilgusdo you fell comfortable in doing so
16:56:52Bilgusfeel*
16:57:16man_in_shacknot tonight :P
16:57:18Bilgusif we can get it into recovery mode we can try and write the bootloader directly
16:57:41Bilgushttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SansaAMSUnbrick
16:58:14Bilguscheck that out when you have time I can guide you through the steps, there won't be any need for soldering
16:58:52man_in_shackthanks
16:59:41Bilgusyou'll need a spudger or credit card or guitar pick and a small screwdriver
16:59:52Bilgusflat head and a phillps
16:59:56man_in_shackyah
17:00
17:02:05man_in_shackhave probably lost my customised theme
17:02:14 Quit kugel (Read error: No route to host)
17:03:01man_in_shackis ok though. was going to switch it out anyway
17:03:47 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur)
17:04:31Bilgusthe data is probably still there
17:04:57Bilgusno guarantee that it isn't corrupted though
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17:45:42***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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18:00
18:02:03micahwith my nwz-a17, there are all these folders in the 'contents' directory that keep coming back, and I dont want them
18:02:22micahDCIM, MP_ROOT, MPE_ROOT, MUSIC, PICTURE, PODCASTS, RECEIVED, VIDEO
18:02:41micahi've removed them from the rockbox interface, and removed them when the device is mounted, but they come right back
18:05:38micahalso, the 'files' selection gets me an entire OS tree, and I need to go into contents to get to the actual things I want to play. on my previous device it would just go right into the actual files... i see there is a settings->file view->start file browser at /
18:05:47micahbut i can't seem to change that to start the file browser at /contents or similar
18:41:59lebelliummicah: they'll always come back so just stop losing time deleting them
18:43:20lebelliumyou can start browsing at /contents
18:43:45lebelliumhighlight the /contents folder, long press on play
18:43:50lebelliumand select "start browsing here"
18:45:50fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 0fbd93b, 273 builds, 13 clients.
18:55:58fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 608 seconds.
18:55:59fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision 0fbd93b result: All green
18:56:44pamaurymicah: for now there is no hope to remove those directories, they are automatically created by Sony.
18:58:18Bilgusdo those devices have the ability to run scripts at start-up maybe make one to auto-delete them or even hide?
18:59:14lebelliumwell, I don't understand why those folders are bothering someone
18:59:24lebelliumif you don"t need them, just don't use them
18:59:38pamauryI agree with lebellium that I fail to see the problem
19:00
19:00:34Bilgusprobably just cluttering it up but I do see the point
19:00:51Bilgusignoring them..
19:03:26lebelliumI guess all famous brands (Samsung, Sony, Sandisk, Cowon etc) have done that for years so that if someone formats the device, he's not afraid seeing nothing at the root afterwards
19:06:16lebelliumthe customer feels reassured seeing his "Music" folder back by default and he just has to feed it again.
19:10:13BilgusPamaury how do you feel about setting up the multiboot bootloader rockbox_main.<MODEL_NUMBER> and getting it committed so people are insatlling it by default
19:12:19Bilgusit looks like it'll be awhile yet before we have a mainline capable of booting from the SD Card but at least the bootloader would already support it
19:13:01lebelliumArf. I should install that on my Clip+ and Clip Zip before the internal storage is dying
19:14:09pamauryBilgus: can you recall me what needs to be added to the bootloader? I have no objection. Just remember that in any case it requires to release a new bootloader for targets if you want people to actually download and use it
19:15:34Bilgusneeds BOOTDATA in crt.0 and HAVE_BOOTDATA + rockbox.main defined in config
19:16:43pamaurywe sent a mail for the mailing list right?
19:16:44Bilgusright now it is set up to do the player name rockbox_main.clip+ clipzip etc johnb thought it might be better to use the Model# since thats already defined
19:17:17BilgusYeah a long while ago where we kinda hashed out how it would work
19:18:38Bilgushttps://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-dev-archive-2017-02/0000.shtml
19:20:11pamauryah yes. Maybe reply to the mailing again explaining the final status, see if people have more comments and if not we submit. Well the model number is quite obscure, I guess we could falldown to model number if no user-friendly string is defined? But even then I suspect we want to enable that per target and it's a small addition
19:21:19Bilgusyeah you do already have to add HAVE_BOOTDATA anyways
19:22:27pamauryI would say everything needs to be well documented in the code and commit text
19:22:38micahpamaury: thanks
19:23:30BilgusI think it pretty much is but i'll look it over
19:23:42micahlebellium: i often am looking through my audio trying to find things, and if I have to always ignore with my brain 8 ALLCAPSDIRECTORIES, then I'm having to use visual grep, when a computer can do that for me
19:24:22micahalso, i'm looking often there with little time to make a change, so I have to scroll past them each time too
19:25:40micahanyways, its just clutter, i am OCD about keeping my stuff organized on the device, so I will just have to go wash my hands 500 times instead
19:27:32 Join pits [0] (~user@55.92-220-69.customer.lyse.net)
19:28:01pamaurymaybe I will eventually manage to bypass Sony's database refreshing thingy and that will solve the problem. I have an idea about that but I haven't tried it yet.
19:30:59lebelliumthe database refresh is more annoying than the autogeneration of folders
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19:43:33micahi want to adjust the max volume, and I see where I can do that, but I dont know what the current max volume is set to
19:43:48micahit seems a little low for this device
19:45:44pamaurymicah: not sure I understand, just press volume up until it stop ^^
19:45:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:46:02pamaurylebellium: I think the destination settings affects max volume even in rockbox right?
19:47:04lebelliumhum good question
19:47:13lebelliumI don't even remember if I checked that point
19:47:41lebelliumsince it's RaaA it should be based on the Sony volume, right?
19:50:21pamaurywell it depends if the volume is enforced in the driver or not. But I think it is
19:50:24 Quit dys (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
19:50:34pamaurymicah: you might want to change destination using https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SonyNWDestTool
19:51:22pamauryask lebellium which destination to use
19:52:10lebelliumTry "E"
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19:55:55pamaurymaybe I should provide a way to change destination in the debug menu
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20:00
20:07:30pamaurylebellium: got the NW-ZX300 info
20:08:45 Quit pits (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
20:08:46lebelliumwhat for is it helpful?
20:09:42pamauryI got the kas, I don't know how to use it yet but at least we have it for the future
20:09:52pamauryI still can't determine the color thing though
20:10:24lebelliumyeah the ZX300 is not a good example for the color...
20:10:43lebelliumit will only be available in silver and also in black but in China only
20:16:20micahpamaury: the problem is I'm pressing volume up until it stops, and I'm constantly listening at rockbox's max volume, and it cannot go louder. However, under Settings->Maximum Volume Limit I can set different levels there. There is a list ranging from 4dB to -100dB, but I dont know what the current value here is set to
20:16:37*micah looks at https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/SonyNWDestTool
20:18:14lebelliumin settings->maximum volume limit you can set a lower maximum volume but it won't be higher than the default max volume
20:21:21micahdest_tool get tells me:
20:21:22micahDestination: CA (301)
20:21:22micahSound pressure: 0 (off)
20:22:02lebelliumI think CA is already uncapped but not sure
20:23:06pamaurymicah: try in the original firmware then
20:23:16pamauryit might just be that the device is not loud
20:23:33micahwiki shows dest_tool of CA as ?
20:23:49lebelliumYeah, the table comes from me
20:24:07lebelliumIt put "?" because I didn't try it
20:25:33micahtried max volume in the OF, it seemed louder, but I need to go back to RB to compare
20:27:06micahyeah its definitely louder, and seems to have a lot more bass
20:27:52pamauryhum, now this is weird. It appears that Sony might have change encryption again in NW-ZX300, the kas has again another format...
20:28:33lebelliumabout the bass level, can you check in the Sony Test Mode if in CA region, they put +X dB on bass?
20:28:40lebelliumthey did it for the E580
20:29:24pamaurymicah: Sony has some funky audio settings like "acoustic mode", available in the driver, that do weird things (TM). Maybe Sony always enables them by default, I think Sony likes bassy boosted sounds these days
20:30:55lebelliumhum no there is no bass settings in the test mode on NWZ-A10
20:31:12micahlebellium: Tools Menu->Service menu->Audio ?
20:32:10micahAudio has a submenu->OUTPUT, SN, F1, F2, SEPLR, SEPRL, MAXOUT, NMLZR, SPCHK, SPKCHK, USER1, USER2, USER3, HIRES
20:32:21lebelliumyes
20:32:48lebelliumthere isn't what I expected
20:33:16micahwow F1... i thought that there was a huge truck idling outside
20:33:37lebelliumyou shouldn't test all things with earphones in your ears
20:33:40lebelliumit's risky
20:33:51micahhalfway through testing those...
20:33:53micahhaha
20:34:01micahthanks, i'll stop
20:35:03micahshould I try to set the destination to E?
20:36:17lebelliumyou can try but I really think that CA is already uncapped and that your headphone is too demanding
20:36:43lebelliumpamaury: it's not possible to test the different audio modes in the debug meny anymore?
20:36:48lebelliumI can't find it
20:36:49micahbut then why is it louder in the OF?
20:37:00pamaurylebellium: no, I wanted to turned them into proper settings
20:37:10pamauryexcept I didn't yet, but that can be fixed easily
20:37:20lebelliumok
20:37:36lebelliummicah: as pamaury said, there are several (I guess 3) different audio modes in the Sony driver
20:37:45lebelliumit may be that Rocbox doesn't use the same as the OF
20:37:56lebelliumwhen he'll add that to Rockbox you can try and compare
20:38:29lebelliumduring my earlier beta tests, one mode was very noisy so we switched to another one
20:39:48pamaurylebellium: yeah but the noise was due to a bug in Sony's driver I think, now it's fixed because we workaround this bug
20:39:53*pamaury adds some settings
20:40:46micahok. once I've done the `dest_tool set` how do I reset the settings on the device?
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20:43:21robertd1Hi Pamaury did you find out what caused the bus error at 40b19078 address 0x00000000?
20:43:30pamauryrobertd1: no :(
20:43:51fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision ff62528, 273 builds, 13 clients.
20:43:52lebelliumSony>settings>common settings>reset/format>reset all settings
20:44:21pamauryjhMikeS: ping
20:44:54micahlebellium: thanks
20:44:57robertd1pamaury I recompiled, the error was gone, then it reappeared again after shutdown :-(
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20:45:33pamauryit's completely random on my device, that makes it very hard to debug
20:46:04jhMikeSpamaury: yes?
20:47:12pamauryjhMikeS: I want to add some "audio" settings on Sony, we don't really know what they do and they are boolean. Should I add them to audiohw_setting.h or directly in the settings in apps/ ?
20:47:44pamaury(they are specific to the hardware so I'm not sure they should go in audiohw_setting)
20:47:45jhMikeSpamaury: have more info?
20:48:00jhMikeSthey should go in a header for the hardware really
20:48:36pamauryOne is called "acoustic" mode, and the other "cuerev". They change the volume curve but I haven't really identified what was the intended purpose
20:48:42pamauryok
20:50:36jhMikeSbasically like how the wm*.h headers are set up with the "AUDIOHW_SETTING" macros. It still needs hooking up with settings.c the usual way.
20:52:01jhMikeSthough if they're just booleans and don't have units or a scale, AUDIOHW_SETTING probably isn't really required
20:52:13pamaurythey are just boolean so I won't use AUDIOHW_SETTING
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21:23:56lebelliumpamaury: can precise in the settings name which one is used by Sony like "acoustic mode (OF)" for example
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21:31:23pamaurylebellium: at first I will make it reappear in the debug menu and have a clean API for this. Then I'll push the setting if it turns out to be useful
21:31:32lebelliumok
21:31:40pamaurylebellium: I don't think the OF has an equivalent setting
21:31:54lebelliumit doesn't
21:32:14lebelliumbut to help the user choose and understand, it would be nice to know which one of the 3 modes is used in OF
21:32:25lebelliumsee micah questions
21:33:33pamauryI don't know, for all I know it might depend on other things, like the audio output or it might be part of the implementation of some Sony's settings
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22:02:23pamauryI've pushed acoustic and cuerev mode code in the debug menu
22:02:41pamaurythe settings are in g#1691 but I prefer to wait to see before adding potentially useless settings
22:02:43fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #1691 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1691 : 3sonynwz: turn "acoustic" and "cuerev" into proper settings (DON'T PUSH) by Amaury Pouly
22:10:26pamaurylebellium: I'm looking into adding bass and treble settings since those appear to be supported by the hardware. There is also what I suspect is Sony's "Clear Stereo". Do you know what this is?
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22:10:49fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision afbae17 result: All green
22:51:25pamaurylebellium: are you sure the NWZ-A10 can't detect whether the headphones are inserted?
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23:29:15lebelliumpamaury: sorry, was watching a movie
23:29:25lebelliumat least I'm sure the OF doesn't make use of it if the feature exists
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23:31:42lebelliumIn OF there is a "ClearAudio+" sound setting. On older models I think it was called Clear Stereo
23:33:09lebelliumyes, on the E360 there is "Clear Stereo"
23:34:16lebelliumI don't know what it does, I don't hear any difference
23:35:04lebelliumI don't see "Clear Stereo" on the A10 and "Clear Audio +" is different
23:35:22pamauryOk, I'm disassembling the drivers and it's not clear this Clear Stereo thing is even implemented, it's no-op
23:35:52lebelliumClear Stereo is a common feature on Sony but maybe it was just disabled on the A10 because they noticed it's useless :P
23:35:54_Bilguslol I bet someone somewhere swears it makes a difference :p
23:36:01pamauryalso bass and treble don't seem to be (afaict) easy to change from the API. One needs to turn the codec off and on for the value change to take effect I think
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23:36:31lebelliumabout bass and treble, it's strange that there is no setting in the Sony Test mode compared to other players like E580
23:36:57pamaury_Bilgus: even if it's not implemented, it's changes a boolean a memory, some audiophile is bound to hear this difference. I'm sure a boolean set to true can increase the SNR of the headphone
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23:39:09lebelliumthere are some audio differences between the E580 and A10. I don't know for the A10 if you pay more for better sound but at least you pay more for something different :D
23:40:23lebelliumpamaury: oh, the E580 also has "Clear Stereo" like the E360
23:40:27lebelliumbut the A10 doesn't
23:41:24lebelliumbut the A20 does!
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23:42:05lebelliumthat doesn't make any sense
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23:43:08lebelliumthere are more sound settings difference between A10 and A20 than I thought...
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