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#rockbox log for 2017-11-20

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07:50:20CH23I just noticed in system > rockbox info, that all memory values are in GiB, but it says GB
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07:50:30CH23on the sansa clip+
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08:57:55_BilgusI think both are acceptable in disks and memory its just do you want to define a byte as 1000 or 1024 and disks are usually 1000, I think the GiB versions came around ~99??
08:59:18CH23it's more that if you use one value, but use the markings of the other value, it's not right
09:00:21_BilgusIIRC linux uses 1000 bytes and windows uses 1024 or maybe I have that reversed
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09:03:29CH231024 byte equals 1 kibibyte
09:06:42_Bilguson windows my 8gb flash drive is 7.38GB on linux it is 7.9GB
09:07:52***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
09:07:54CH23my micro SD has a total capacity of 197GB, which is 183.471 GiB, and rockbox tells me it has a 183GB capacity. changing the locale should make it right
09:08:41_Bilgussounds nitpicky to me..
09:08:53CH23it's 2 different measurements
09:09:03_Bilgusbut both are accepted
09:09:04CH23it's like saying 2 inch is 2 dm
09:09:49_Bilgusits like saying we sell footlong subway subs but they are nominally 11.2 inches
09:10:35CH23if 1 GB equalled 1 GiB, sure.
09:13:40copperI don't think that debate will ever end
09:13:45_Bilgusin disks and memory it does
09:14:13copper1 GB is never equal to 1 GiB
09:14:27copperyou can say that you don't care, but you can't say they are the same, ever
09:14:33_Bilgusin the fine print 1GB = 1 billion bytes
09:15:03_BilgusI'm saying in the marketing sense not in real bytes
09:15:28copperthey are wrong
09:16:16_Bilgussure but its been that way for what .. ever?
09:16:29copperdoesn't mean we shouldn't correct a wrong
09:16:33copperright a wrong
09:17:06copperespecially on a somewhat technical, hobbyist project
09:17:58copperit doesn't cost anything to display the correct unit prefix and I don't think people would be confused by the use of binary prefixes
09:18:07coppereveryone will understand what 1 GiB is
09:18:37[Saint]I'm sorry, what?
09:19:04copperhi there!
09:19:11[Saint]Why in the name of any deity you hold dear should this be governed by the locale?
09:19:27[Saint]I mean...what?!?
09:19:33copperyeah that doesn't sound right
09:19:43[Saint]It's not. That's why. ;)
09:19:48copper[Saint]: GiB in French is Gio
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09:19:56copperso I guess he has a point there
09:19:57_BilgusI think if I were to change it I'd keep it GB so we don't have to add KiB, Gib, Mib
09:20:23[Saint]Hah, I was just typing that _Bilgus
09:20:32[Saint]Not A Bug: ship it
09:20:49[Saint]Oh, we already did, that's progress!
09:22:24copperis Rockbox localized?
09:22:51copperI've always run it in English
09:23:23_Bilguseven rtl languages
09:23:46[Saint]We even have theme support for it.
09:23:48_Bilgusthere is a metric fucktonne of logic going into localization
09:24:07copper[Saint]: that I know, from your funky lines of theme markup ;-)
09:24:28copper_Bilgus: are you sure it's a metric fucktonne and not an imperial fuckton?
09:24:40[Saint]Sx(string_in_english_lang) automatically translates to the locale or fallback to english if untranslated.
09:25:00[Saint]Cabbie uses it for "of"
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09:29:28[Saint]RTL support is pretty screwy. There's a lot of niche cases where it can go wrong. But it "works".
09:30:20[Saint]Significantly more so if the theme author put some forethought into it, but it's an easy case to miss. I wouldn't blame anyone for it.
09:31:43[Saint]Not flipping bar fill direction before that was done automatically was a fairly common bug reported against it for a while.
09:32:25[Saint]Now when it does pop up it's usually symbols in the wrong places because people forget about them.
09:33:22[Saint]So (in RTL equivalent) it ends up being %100 and dB70- kinda shit.
09:34:06 Join dys [0] (
09:34:30_Bilgusso if you all want GB to == 1000 bytes you need to go through and scale evrything in fixed point (GiB * 1074) /1000 and you need to make sure you change every instance because a lack of consistency would be worse than it is currently
09:35:19_Bilgusconsistently wrong is better than a mixed format throught
09:36:28_Bilgusbut personally I can't really see why it matters
09:39:51copperno-one really counts filesizes in powers of 10
09:40:01copper*that* would be confusing
09:40:27_BilgusI know kB and KB are accepted ways of signifying the two I wonder if gB and GB are accepted forms as well
09:40:55copperk is a standard prefix from the internal system of units
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09:41:04copperg is gram
09:41:10copperG is giga
09:41:13copperGi is Gibi
09:41:20copperK is Kelvin
09:42:10_BilgusI'm well aware of metric prefixes
09:42:15copperThis debate is really annoying. There are standards for this.
09:43:34_BilgusIf i were truly worried about something like this I think we should put on the main page 1GB = 1 billion bytes and be done with it
09:43:53coppernot if you report 1 GiB as 1 GB
09:44:26copperI don't know why everyone is still stuck with the old ways
09:44:43copperit's not complicated, it's not confusing, it's not hard
09:44:53_BilgusOh I guess it wasn't 99 it was december of 1998
09:44:59copperthe standard lift the confusion
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09:56:48[Saint]You've reminded me of why I hate many vehicle speedometers copper.
09:57:04 Quit dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
09:57:48copperthat's pretty… COLD, if you ask me!
09:58:48[Saint]I find it pretty fitting to have a Frenchy in this discussion. Lord knows what we'd be using if you guys didn't say "fuck it, let's get on the same page".
09:59:10[Saint]I often wonder about what would be were it not for the formation of SI.
09:59:29_BilgusIs that with the kings dong or the queens?
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10:25:26_Bilgusthere is already the fuctionality to scale 1024 vs 1000
10:26:49_Bilgusjust need these to be false..
10:27:02copperif (bin_scale) fraction = fraction * 1000 / 1024;
10:27:42_Bilgusbinary scale
10:29:42_BilgusI think (val * 1074) /1000 is better but if it works
10:30:29gevaertsThat would give a wrong answer!
10:30:53*[Saint] maintains this is true as well
10:31:11_Bilgussorry backwards
10:31:52*gevaerts mostly saw the 1074 :)
10:31:59[Saint]Well, I meant that on two levels. If it was right it would *still* give the wrong answer.
10:32:31[Saint]"right" to me is "do precisely nothing".
10:32:42[Saint]But that's understandably contentious.
10:33:14_Bilgusanyways just pass false and GB will be 'proper'
10:33:55[Saint].ie wrong
10:34:49[Saint]Whatever happens at least we all agree that the locale has zero business governing that behavior.
10:35:33[Saint]I'm genuinely against switches for the sake of switches but this *might* be the kinda thing we should offer via a developer setting.
10:36:25_BilgusIdk I come from a time when 1024 was a byte
10:37:07_Bilguswell 1024 bytes was a megabyte
10:37:07copperyou mean a KB
10:37:12_Bilgusyes lol
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10:37:35copper1024 * 1024 was a megabyte
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10:40:23_Bilgusyes and while we are at it, val * 977 /1000
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10:42:05copperit all looks so wrong
10:42:10_Bilgusno lets not bring mexico into this
10:45:03copperlet's just start throwing random numbers around
10:45:37_BilgusIsn't that what we were already doing?
10:46:25copperyou were, for sure
10:46:42_Bilgusno they had very specific purposes
10:48:06_Bilgus1 GiB = 1.07374 GB
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11:13:17copperNo, no, no, no, no! (oh mama mia, mama mia)
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15:59:27_BilgusI'm pretty sure one of us has GB and GiB backwards if you think that is wrong too
16:03:19pamauryGB = 10^9 bytes but GiB = 1024^3 = 2^30 bytes, no?
16:03:57pamauryif you do the math, it gives 1GiB = 1.073 GB
16:05:01_BilgusThtas what I thought but I'm beginning to question my sanity
16:05:40pamaurythat's the theory at least, the KiB, GiB, etc prefixes were standardized and are unambiguous.
16:06:23pamaurythe problem is that KB , MB and GB are ambiguous
16:06:59pamaurythey typically are powers of 10 for disks and a random mix of powers of 10 and powers of 2 for everyone else
16:06:59_Bilgusyes that is what this all started over :p
16:08:26pamaurywhat was the reason for this debate?
16:09:54pamauryit seems to me the debate is simple: if you use GiB, you are bound to use powers of 2, if you use GB, you are free to use whatever you want to provide the best possible confusion
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16:15:31_BilgusIt is true that the RB info menu is using 1024^3 to signify GB
16:16:33pamaurywe could change it to GiB so be more precise, if it really bothers some people
16:17:54_Bilgusmy point was then we need MiB KiB so be better to change it to 10^9 bytes
16:18:27_Bilgusor just leave it alone, windows did
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17:06:47copper_Bilgus: yes I know but 1) you're using a float to produce an int, and 2) that value works only for GiB; there's still KiB and MiB to deal with
17:07:09copperdoing the conversion that way is the wrong way
17:08:00copperThe right solution is to use binary units because that's what everyone expects, and thus use the right prefixes (KiB, MiB, GiB)
17:08:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:09:02copperI don't know why there's so much resistance for this.
17:09:11gevaertsThat would be ohms
17:09:43coppernice one :)
17:10:51copperAnyway, it's been a solved problem for nearly, what, three decades?
17:11:02copperadopt the solution already, geez
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17:12:00_Bilgusoutput_dyn_value() does it in a valid way
17:15:49_Bilgusand for the remaining fraction 977/1000 would not be float
17:17:00copperI don't understand why this line is there: fraction = fraction * 1000 / 1024;
17:17:52copperoh, I think I get it
17:17:56_Bilgusto get the fractional part?
17:19:08copperAnd what sets bin_scale to false, currently?
17:19:32_Bilguswhomever calls the function I presume
17:20:25copperObviously. My question was, is it a user setting or are there places where Rockbox uses powers of ten and other places where it uses powers of two?
17:20:59copperThat wasn't a yes or no question.
17:21:40copperI can't tell what you're replying yes to?
17:22:44_Bilgusnot a user setting as far as I know and yes rb uses 10^ and 2^
17:23:03copperin any case it needs to use proper prefixes and units
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18:36:16_BilgusCH23, copper Add KiB, MiB, GiB prefixes to disk sizes
18:36:28_Bilgusyou guys can test it
18:42:51pixelmaI believe there was some discussion about it aaaages ago, don't remember if there was an agreement and if so - what it was
18:44:20_Bilgusnow its there If they want it there is a patch that deals with it :p
18:46:43_BilgusI should make that now it is theirs if there is a desire for it there is a patch that they're going to have to add to their build lol
18:49:03_BilgusI would be interested in how it gets voiced
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22:22:00__builtinI honestly don't see why the GB/GiB distinction matters at all
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22:32:36[Saint]Who wants to do me a favor?
22:33:44[Saint]If anyone could please do so, go to this address (, and find me an icon to visually represent "preset".
22:35:44*__builtin never "got" icons
22:36:05__builtintext is much less ambiguous
22:36:10[Saint]It's OK, if you don't mind, just go with your gut feeling.
22:36:30[Saint]It's OK if you don't want to or can't be bothered. Either is fine.
22:36:56amayerpreset like a preset setting? or is preset also an audio term?
22:37:18 Join CH23 [0] (
22:38:01gevaertsIt's a tennis term I believe
22:39:03CH23_Bilgus: sorry for not having been here during the whol discussion,i'll try the patch ASAP
22:40:54[Saint]amayer: I honestly don't know.
22:41:11[Saint]looking at the source I'm not even sure it's used, but...I have to recreate it.
22:41:30[Saint]I /think/ it's an FM Radio thing.
22:41:36__builtin[Saint]: perm_data_setting is probably the closest thing
22:41:53__builtinsettings gear with a triangle
22:41:55[Saint]But, basically, just go with your gut. Everything helps me. I really appreciate it.
22:42:11[Saint]OK __builtin, I'll have a look, thank you very much.
22:42:27[Saint]You guys are all very good to me. Like I say, I appreciate it very much.
22:43:23__builtinor maybe just "settings application"
22:43:24[Saint]__builtin: find-in-page goes bonkers on that site, which block of icons is that in?
22:43:50__builtinyou can CTRL+F perm data setting
22:43:56__builtin(no underscore)
22:45:13__builtinanything with a settings gear and an abstract shape is probably the closest you'll get
22:45:26CH23it's hard to choose something when you don't have context
22:45:34[Saint]You /should/ be able to, but it lazy loads shit making find-in-page kinda awkward.
22:46:00[Saint]CH23: it is, yes, it appears to be referring to FM Radio station presets.
22:46:41CH23ahh, cool.
22:47:14[Saint]CH23: for reference and further context, I'm rebuilding the icons/viewer icons
22:47:31[Saint]It's time for the theme to break out of 1990
22:48:09__builtin[Saint]: hmm, if it's for the radio then what I said doesn't make too much sense
22:48:12[Saint]I mean, don't get me wrong, I love CabbieV2 and the Tango! icon set, it's just...well, yeah. It's time for a refresh.
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22:49:00CH23messageWhat will you use for scan mode?
22:49:29[Saint]AFAIR that doesn't even get an icon
22:50:11CH23messageSettings input antenna
22:50:31[Saint]CH23: what's going on with your client?
22:50:43[Saint]It's prepending 'message' before everything.
22:51:06CH23i'm trying a new one on my 3ds, why?
22:52:03[Saint][21112017104902] <CH23> messageWhat will you use for scan mode?
22:52:03[Saint][21112017104931] <[Saint]> AFAIR that doesn't even get an icon
22:52:03[Saint][21112017105013] <CH23> messageSettings input antenna
22:52:17CH23ah yeah it's automatically filling the messagebox with that; i need to manually delete it
22:53:04CH23what's worse is that it doesn't let me see my own messages
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22:54:37[Saint]__builtin: I think I'm going to go with "star rate"
22:54:43[Saint]It lends itself to a degree of ambiguity
22:54:58__builtinyes, it does
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22:55:44[Saint]Thanks for your input guys, I'll give a yell in channel when I have the main iconset done so you guys can have a look at what I'm doing.
22:55:58__builtinyeah, I'd be interested
22:56:10__builtinwhat you're doing here sounds really cool
22:56:18CH23looking forward to it
23:02:16__builtinthe themesite's rating sort feature could use some work
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23:20:12[Saint]One thing that's going to be mildly annoying is that there's absolutely no way I can put this theme on the theme site.
23:20:28[Saint]It breaks pretty much every expectation the theme site has.
23:21:15CH23because it's better?
23:21:21__builtindoes it have a name yet?
23:21:38[Saint]"immaterial", it's a bit of a pun.
23:21:49__builtinI like it :)
23:22:03[Saint]it's heavily material design influenced, and it's incredibly dynamic.
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