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#rockbox log for 2018-03-06

00:00:47 Quit ender` (Quit: Remember: A secretary isn't permanent until she's been screwed on the desk.)
00:04:09 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador)
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02:43:17LarrythelobsterI need some help
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05:14:29 Join roboturner913 [0] (4a854aea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
05:15:50 Join this_is_a_nick [0] (
05:16:35roboturner913I can vouch that the Agptek Rocker is a very nice player. Nicer than it looks in pictures. The firmware is pretty polished, fast and responsive. Sounds nice too. At least as good as all the Sansa players. I have not tried it with Rockbox because currently the installation is over my head but Rockbox is only going to make it better.
05:18:05roboturner913I like my Fuze+ too but I got really tired of hitting the wrong area of the touchpad and doing something I didn't want to do. That was a poorly thought out device. Rockbox makes it usable, if you're not trying to use it in the dark.
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10:55:37tomflintanyone here ever made a theme or modified one?
10:56:25gevaertsI'd say probably at least a dozen or so
10:56:29gevaerts(people, I mean)
11:03:03tomflintare people coding these by hand, or is there a handy generator?
11:03:22gevaertsIt's all by hand
11:04:09tomflintgood Lord
11:04:44tomflintwell, that's impressive. I'm modifying the Clip WPS to ditch the artwork, etc. Nothing crazy, but I couldn't imagine doing this by hand.
11:04:48HorrorcatI once wrote a WPS thing for iriver, does that count?
11:05:10Horrorcatit looks worse than perl
11:05:18gevaertsMore a sign of insanity than impressive, really :)
11:06:24gevaertsI did and
11:06:36gevaerts*ages* ago. I don't think I want to look at the code now
11:06:44Horrorcatholy smokes
11:06:54HorrorcatI agree with that sentiment
11:09:06*gevaerts can't help himself and looks anyway
11:09:11tomflintI am less impressed with my text centering now...
11:09:48gevaertsI am. Restricting yourself is *good*!
11:09:54gevaertsThat way you'll stay sane
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11:12:17tomflinteven if I did design something from scratch, it would end up looking like the clip theme without album art and with centered text.
11:13:53gevaertsBy the way, last time I checked those two themes were the *only* ones with a progress bar that isn't boring left to right
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13:03:22mykiHi Pamaury, yesterday you talked about the AGPTek Rocker almost able to work with RB, but I can't find anything about it in the Rockbox main site ??
13:03:43pamaurymyki: it's not pushed in the repository yet, but you can find all the detaisl on the forum
13:04:11pamauryand the code is currently on wodz's github account
13:07:55mykiok :) thank you !
13:10:47wodzbeware that installation process is pretty involved for now
13:26:44mykithanks for your advice wodz, I was just looking at this device for a future buy (looking for a color screen, at least 16Gb and a SD Card slot... and Workbox able ! lol)
13:31:06 Join massiveH [0] (
13:44:03pamaurymyki: I have checked and the current bootloader (at least the one currently linked to on the wiki) will automatically boot from SD if the internal storage is not formatted as FAT
13:44:59pamauryas for FAT vs Creative FS detection, I have tried with both Windows and Linux and it seems that most of the time, the FAT is formatted in the way that Creative's reformat will make the FAT invalid (thus Rockbox will skip it and boot from SD card) thus no corruption will occur
13:46:25pamaurymyki: can you check on your device what happens if you remove the SD card, select reformat in recovery menu and try to boot?
13:49:21mykiit says "no partition found", "loading firmware", "file not found" and I have to reset with a pin in the hole
13:49:59mykino, it switch off by itself
13:50:55pamauryok good, so if you have a recent enough bootloader and just install rockbox on the SD card (ie download the zip and unzip it on the SD card), it should boot rockbox from SD card
13:52:20mykiboot version : V1Beta2_fb8faa1
13:52:53pamauryyes this one should work
13:53:04pamauryI have to go but I'll be back later
13:53:48mykinp pamaury thanks again, I'll leave a message here if it works
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14:27:39myki@pamaury It works strangely, as if Rockbox was looking for its files sometimes on the SD card, sometimes still on the internal memory. Ex: Cannot browse the theme files ...
14:28:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:33:08mykiand it says "no .rockbox directory" even if RB boots now
14:42:10gevaertsSounds like you need a rockbox build with drives reversed as well
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14:59:07myki@gevaerts I could give it a try, do you have a link for me, please ?
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15:23:43pamaurygevaerts: I don't think so because rockbox boots on the first partition available. If the internal storage has no partition (which should be the case here), then it should be fine
15:24:54gevaertsHmm, true
15:25:04pamaurymaybe the bootloader skips the internal storage but the main binary does not?
15:25:12mykiin fact when I try to browse the themes of the fonts... nothing happens, and I have this message : "no .rockbox directory" but it boots
15:25:48pamaurymyki: ok interesting, this will require more testing on my side to understand what happens
15:26:35mykiif you need more testing from me, I'm here
15:27:08gevaertsI haven't followed earlier, how do we know for sure the first disk doesn't have a valid partition?
15:27:44 Quit wodz (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
15:29:20mykithe internal disk has a proprietary format (from creative) (not sure it's you want to know lol)
15:31:40pamaurygevaerts: the problem is that OF uses a weird filesystem BUT the biggest problem is that its super block is NOT block 0
15:31:58gevaertsOK, so could block 0 have FAT remnants on it?
15:32:05gevaertsThis is too long ago... I swear I once knew how this all worked :)
15:32:10pamaurythus it's perfectly possible for FAT to have its superblock at 0 and the Creative FS to have its superblock somewhere else, and both OS think it's valid
15:32:40pamauryand on top of that, Creative's "format" is lazy and doesn't zero out block 0, so one has remnants of FAT yes
15:32:52pamauryI think that's the problem
15:33:03gevaertsRight, and if just enough remains for that to pass our mount code...
15:33:51gevaertsWell, one solution would be to zero out that block, another would be to use a build that doesn't have a driver for internal storage (or are they both sd?)
15:34:54pamaurythey both have SD, also some people prefer to reformat the internal storage to use it
15:35:05pamaury(which is worth it if you have 16GB of storage like me)
15:35:36gevaertsYes, but it would still confirm things
15:36:39pamauryOne option would be a build where the bootloader has a menu where you can enable/disable internal storage but I would prefer to avoid that, or having two builds which is also a pain
15:36:39gevaertsAnyway, they're different drives, so reversing the loop in disk_mount_all() should match the sd-first bootloader
15:36:52pamauryyes we could reverse the order
15:37:11pamaurybut then that means you must have rockbox on the SD card
15:37:25pamaury(if you have an SD card)
15:37:30gevaertsYes, it's really only good for a workaround
15:38:14pamaurythe problem is that FAT formatter are also lazy, thus when they reformat, they don't zero out the Creative FS superblock, so I can't even use that to know which FS it has...
15:38:26gevaertsThe proper fix in this particular case would be having the FAT code be a lot less tolerant
15:38:42gevaertsI mean, I'm sure some bits don't make sense for it in this case
15:38:53pamauryyeah but say you run the creative format, it kills one sector which may not even be in use by the FAT yet
15:39:12gevaertsSo that doesn't help either
15:39:17pamauryit's superblock is block 64 or something like that
15:39:24pamaurywhich is typically in the hidden blocks
15:39:42*pamaury blames Creative
15:40:10gevaertsWell, the clue is in the name :)
15:41:07gevaertsAll of that also means that looking for .rockbox after the disk init and redoing it in the other order if not found also won't work
15:42:04pamaurythere is one option but it's a breaking change though: internally creative uses a partition table (which is also not the MBR because they are Creative), which has names
15:43:15pamauryThe OF is on "minifs" and the data on "cfs". For now I expose "cfs" which user reformat as FAT. One option would be you create another type (for example "rockfs"), and only expose that. Then the bootloader can have a menu to choose whether to use storage as cfs (for OF only) or rockfs (for rockbox) or both (one could say do 50% for each in theory)
15:43:54pamaury(I say in theory because Creative's code is broken with respect to partition size, the OF might just assume cfs uses the rest of the disk)
15:46:09gevaertsThat's good for dual-booting. Do people who currently reformat that as FAT dual-boot?
15:46:28gevaertsAnd if not, do things still work if there is no cfs?
15:46:54pamaurycurrently one cannot really dual-boot, the OF is unusable if the cfs partition is missing or formatted as FAT
15:47:15pamaury(I also haven't checked what Creative's reformat code does if it cannot find the cfs partition, whether it recreates it or does nothing)
15:47:56gevaertsSo the OF looks for cfs, probably gets the start of that correct, but might assume it goes to the end of the drive?
15:48:34gevaertsIf that's true, your solution might work if the fat partition comes first
15:49:20gevaertsStill a breaking change of course, but maybe a good long-term one
15:51:24pamaurygevaerts: well the size of the partition in the partition table is clearly wrong (32-bit overflow), so I think the OF just assumes it uses the rest
15:51:50pamaurywe might just go the easy way and set it's either rockbox or OF (using a bootloader menu) but not both, this simplifies things
15:55:48pamaurythere is maybe another option, kind of ugly but avoids breakage: the bootloader checks whether the cfs partition has both FAT and Creative superblock. If so, it's asks the user whether it wants to give the storage to creative or rockbox, and zeroes out the other superblock.
15:56:27*gevaerts nods
15:57:04gevaertsThat also means it only asks once
15:57:31pamauryit only asks once, or when you do a reformat (which leads to this ambiguous situation)
15:57:41gevaertsWell yes
15:57:55gevaertsAnd hopefully at that point you still remember what you want
15:58:17pamauryin all cases the disk is exported over USB so one can reformat to FAT to use it, or use Creative's menu to reformat to Creative FS
16:00:24gevaertsHmmm, what would happen if the USB export (which I understand exports just the cfs partition?) is changed to export starting from the cfs superblock instead of the actual partition start?
16:00:41gevaerts(apart from breaking existing uses)
16:02:20pamaurygevaerts: that's a good idea, it would break all existing users though
16:02:53pamaury(but to be honest I don't know if many people use rockbox on the ZEN (X-Fi))
16:06:28gevaertsMaybe we can think of a way to detect the situation somehow...
16:06:49gevaertsAlthough that sounds even trickier than the original problem
16:07:25pamauryIf we are going to detect some situation, it sounds simpler to check for the existence of the two superblock and ask the user about it I think
16:07:59gevaertsWe should have thought about this a bit more ten years ago :)
16:08:54pamauryhaha, yeah probably ;)
16:11:41gevaertsI can't think of a clean and user-friendly way to handle the offset change upgrade
16:12:38pamauryno, I think the offset change is too invasive
16:13:04gevaertsIt's basically a full reinstall+reformat (unless you don't use FAT), which is a disaster if you update without being aware of it
16:15:09pamaurywhat do you think about the option to have the bootloader detect the situation and ask the user which to keep?
16:15:57gevaertsIt's the only option so far that's actually usable I think
16:17:47 Join roboturner913 [0] (4a854aea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.
16:18:00roboturner913I have modded some themes from time to time. mostly on the E200
16:18:40roboturner913I find that it's easier to do if you have a screenshot of the theme from the simulator up while you edit the code
16:19:57roboturner913it helps if the theme/wps is well marked out to let you know what is what. that's half the battle. changing code is easy once you understand the language
16:21:51roboturner913start out with some basic things like a Clip theme to get a feel for the language and how to use the various terms to make things go where you want them to go
16:22:32roboturner913having said that, I'm not even attempting to create a theme/wps from scratch. I have nowhere near that kind of time. I can usually find one that I like well enough to modify for my own purposes though
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16:24:21roboturner913and you'd be surprised, once you get started, how drastically you can change a theme to your liking by just switching out a backdrop or something
16:27:04roboturner913I am looking forward/not looking forward to figuring out themes for the Rocker port when that's done
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16:29:00roboturner913my hope is to modify some of the newer fuze+ themes to fit. of course the resolution is vastly different but the screen size/ratio are similar enough
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