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#rockbox log for 2018-04-03

00:09:59 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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00:25:31fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision fb3f765, 273 builds, 12 clients.
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00:41:11 Join dandels [0] (~dandels@unaffiliated/dandels)
00:42:48ulmutulThe built system is quite slow today, I'll check for errors tomorrow.
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04:56:05__builtinuser890104: what state is your fake86 port in?
04:56:35__builtinThere's a user on the forums that's interested in running the original Duke Nuken (not 3D)
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11:20:48user890104__builtin: not in a good state, hardcoded keymap to run alleycat, no sound
11:21:26user890104also the input handling is awful, i wrote it just to make alleycat work
11:32:50 Join ulmutul [0] (~ulmutul@rockbox/developer/ulmutul)
11:35:56fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 0486e5b, 273 builds, 11 clients.
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12:57:39pamauryulmutul: one of my build clients was down, now the build system should be (marginally) faster
12:57:58ulmutulFine!
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13:05:26ulmutulI'd like to push g#1353 and g#1354 soon. Any objections?
13:05:29fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #1353 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1353 : 3Fix lcd not waking up when backlight is always off by Sebastian Leonhardt
13:05:29fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #1354 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1354 : 3transflective LCDs: fix "first buttonpress enables backlight only" by Sebastian Leonhardt
13:10:56 Quit dandels (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
13:15:15pixelmahuh, why does the LCD need to be woken up (isn't there in a separate setting for this, if so maybe it's better to have another "first press enables LCD only" that goes along with it?)
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13:32:14ulmutulIf you enable "first buttonpress enables backlight only" on any device you expect to make the display visible with any buttonpress, but the button shouldn't have any effect. However in the current codebase, if you completely disable the backlight (this makes sense if you use a transflective target in a bright environment), if the lcd is set to sleep (i.e. you can't see anything) and then you press a button, the lcd wakes up AND the button
13:32:14ulmutulaction is performed. You would expect the first buttonpress to only wake up the lcd, without performing the action.
13:32:31pamauryulmutul: I am not sure I 100% understand this but on principle it looks ok. Basically the problem is some code assumes some correlation between backlight off and lcd off?
13:33:19pamauryyes I agree the behavior should be consistent among targets
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13:41:07ulmutulIIUC lcd sleep was first introduced to have an additional state for powersaving: Backlight on (Display is visible)-Backlight off(lcd not visible)-LCD sleep (powersaving)-LCD controller off(max powersaving, but may need a long time to be restarted)
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13:43:13ulmutulThe lcd-sleep-setting was then re-used for transflective displays: sleeping lcd means: display is shut off and not visible any more. This makes sense, as there's a setting available for the time after which the lcd is set to sleep.
13:45:03ulmutulHowever some parts of the code still assume that the lcd is only visible when the backlight is on and therefore doesn't work (consistently) with transflective lcds when the backlight is completely switched off.
13:54:47pamauryI am also not sure how consistent the code is wrt to the various power state of the display, for me the difference between lcd_sleep() and lcd_enable() was always a bit fuzzy
13:57:29ulmutulIIUC on some targets re-enabling the lcd was rather slow, so an intermediate state was introduced (with an user-configurable time).
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14:20:58pixelmaulmutul: but shouldn't this be a different setting (at least with a different name) or... maybe it is, I only read your description
14:21:31pixelma(probably wouldn't have understood the code anyway)
14:48:07ulmutulpixelma: I don't think we should be more catholic than the pope here. The patch should only affect the usecase when you set the backlight to "always off". The original source works too literally for me (don't ignore the buttonpress, because the backlight isn't affected), whereas IMO the buttonpress should be ignored because it switches the lcd state from invisible to visible (regardless of the wording "..enables backlight..").
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14:58:35fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 7a12e79, 273 builds, 13 clients.
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15:08:51pixelmawhat happens if the lcd is not disabled but the backlight is "always off"?
15:11:48pixelmaand about the settings names - if one doesn't know the correlation, would you expect a backlight setting to have an influence on the display enabling/disabling?
15:13:32ulmutulIf the backlight is "always off" and the lcd is not disabled, the buttonpress should work normally.
15:13:54*pixelma admits that she wouldn't disable the display on so the discussion is a bit academic
15:14:24pixelma"on such a target" that is
15:16:55ulmutulAnd I think that most people use their transflective targets at least sometimes with the backlight enabled (the setting then works like on any other target).
15:17:56*ulmutul admits that he is too lazy to implement another setting and write the proper documentation
15:20:42ulmutulI think it's not worth the hassle regarding the rather small usecase ^
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15:25:38ulmutulBTW do we have any reflective LCD targets? (as opposed to transflective)
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15:32:21ulmutulBBL
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17:37:17pixelmaulmutul (logs): if you mean those "pitch black without backlight" types then I guess the answer is yes. Almost all of the colour display ones I know are this way with the colour display Ipods being the exception. I'm not sure about the "newer" targets like the Sonys and Fiios though, I wouldn't be surprised if those were the pitch black type too
17:38:05pixelmamaybe just the Ipod Nanos and Videos
17:38:40pixelmahave transflective displays (sorry for the unintentional linebreak)
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19:01:04ulmutulpixelma: I mean exactly the opposite: LCDs like the ones common in alarm clocks, usually black and white, good readable even in modest light, and a "backlight" that shines from top on the lcd (not from behind through the LCD; that is where the "trans" is coming from).
19:03:30ulmutulFor the logs: Samsung YH-820 and I think Philips HDD6330 also have transflective LCDs.
19:05:46pixelmathe harddisk Archoses are this way IIRC (Recorders, Player). The stock Ondios don't have a backlight at all, there is the possibility of a hardware mod which adds EL backlight - AFAIK it's the same display type as the Recorders'... it has the same rectangular pixels
19:07:47pixelmaso you could call them transflective still. Hmm, then that's probably not what you mean. I just stopped at "backlight" that shines from the top
19:08:57ulmutulIf it hasn't a backlight at all, then it's definitive what I'm looking for :)
19:10:50ulmutulDo you know if the Display stays always on on the Archos/Ondios? Or do they have LCD sleep?
19:11:35pixelmano, I mean the other Archoses. Their display is still transflective even though the "backlight" is made of 4 LEDs that shine from outside the screen (2 at the top and 2 at the bottom)
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19:14:02pixelmaI don't think they have LCD sleep but I haven't updated Rockbox on my backlit Ondio for years. And I actually don't see the point in an LCD sleep, I don't think their display uses much energy
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19:19:28ulmutulI looked up in the manual, there's no sleep setting mentioned. And yes, especially the old b&w LCDs use very little power, so there's no need for sleep.
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19:23:21ulmutulEven on the YH820 the power consumtion of the LCD (without backlight) is so low, that the effect on the runtime is almost negligible.
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20:29:32mendelmunkisIs there someone with a non color target who can test g#1836 for effects? it works on simulator but I dont have hardware
20:29:35fs-bluebot3Gerrit review #1836 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1836 : 3Textviewer night mode by Moshe Piekarski
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