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#rockbox log for 2018-07-28

00:00:39 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.)
00:00:47 Join benedikt93 [0] (~quassel@unaffiliated/benedikt93)
00:20:55 Quit Rower (Quit: Hmmm...)
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01:21:40 Part ender`
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03:30:38 Join flashpoint [0] (~flashpoin@unaffiliated/flashpoint)
03:30:46flashpointis the ibasso dx90 person here?
03:30:50flashpointperson or people?
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04:01:35Saratogaflashpoint: probably not, but just ask if you have a question
04:04:39flashpointit's based on android apparently?
04:05:27flashpointdamnit I'll sort it myself, I have never once got any kind of answer that helped in any way from this channel
04:10:39 Quit Saratoga (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
04:48:25_Bilgusthen maybe you should be the person helping someone instead of being all pissy
04:49:40_Bilgushttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/IBassoDXPort
04:50:02_Bilgussays it needs the android ndk so yes based on android
04:50:20_Bilgus@flashpoint
05:00
05:02:50flashpointthis is the most response literally ever
05:09:10_Bilguswell you do realize we are all volunteers and have other things to do?
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13:32:39fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 6f0320a, 275 builds, 12 clients.
13:35:05 Join massiveH [0] (~massiveH@ool-18e4e27c.dyn.optonline.net)
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15:55:21leachim6_Bilgus: it works fine on my usb3 hub
15:56:10leachim6is the AGPTek rocker my best bed if I want a new player?
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15:56:21fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Revision 8fb1740 result: All green
15:56:21_Bilguscool apples to oranges but glad it works :)
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15:58:59leachim6the buying guide seems quite out of date :/
16:00
16:02:18_Bilgusindeed
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16:14:58leachim6so what do you recommend ?
16:15:51leachim6I got a fuze+ that's running rockbox real nice
16:16:03leachim6however, the battery is going to die one day and the rocker has bluetooth and other cool stuff
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16:33:16BilgusI think the rocker has terrible battery life but for the price why not I'm partial to the sansa clips but a used one is likely as much as the rocker
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16:49:43 Join saratoga [0] (47e99464@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.233.148.100)
16:50:02saratogai definitely think the voltage at low clock on the fuzev2 is too low, which causes ata errors for some people
16:50:19saratoganot sure what the value should be, might just raise it to a safe value even if it hurts battery life a little
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16:54:08johnb2Bilgus : with all your recent AMS related commits, if you also commit the "boot from SD" I can use the HEAD development build again ;-)
16:54:13johnb2Great work!
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16:56:41fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 3e91ad5, 275 builds, 12 clients.
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17:03:18 Quit johnb2 (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de)
17:11:11saratogahmm build system didn't pick up that last commit
17:11:34saratogai raised the fuzev2 voltage slightly
17:15:26_Bilgussaratoga I just pushed the powersave menu commit It raises them all at default
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17:17:37saratoga_Bilgus: what does it do?
17:18:45_BilgusIt raises the minimum voltage
17:19:16saratogai'm looking at that now
17:19:25saratogayou shouldn't define HAVE_ADJUSTABLE_CPU_VOLTAGE on the v1 devices
17:19:55_Bilgusjohnb and I tested it and it worked any clue why not?
17:20:36saratogai don
17:20:47saratogat think voltage/frequency scaling was ever completed on those devices
17:22:29_Bilgushmm I mean I can re-disable it or we just wait n see
17:22:40saratogai also don't think you should be putting things like hardware voltages in the settings
17:23:24saratogaputting them in the debug menu is sort of reasonable for testing, but users should not be able to adjust those things normally
17:24:09_Bilguswell its eith leave them at the max or give the option
17:24:39_BilgusIts getting pretty obvious that leaving them at the min is crashing players
17:25:03saratogawe put a lot of work into figuring out what the minimum voltages are
17:25:18saratogaat this point I think it is only the fuzev2 where there is some question because its a rare device
17:25:29saratogaand not many people have tested it
17:25:37_Bilgusand those minimum voltages are in the power save menu otherwise it leaves them safely higher
17:25:55saratogatraditionally we did not allow people to change hardware settings
17:26:04saratogai don't see a rationale for changing that now
17:26:15saratogawe should simply raise voltages we are unsure of
17:26:38_BilgusI'm not sure how you can argue against higher voltages rather than than having lower voltages as default
17:27:01saratogaI'm saying each voltage should be put to a safe value and kept there
17:27:13saratogaso skimming this patch, I have a lot of problems with it
17:27:37saratogafirst, you're doing an awful lot in one commit, such as enabling voltage scaling, debug menu, new features, etc
17:27:52saratogaeach of these should be an individual commit, and they should be introduced gradually so there is time to test
17:27:52 Quit alce (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:28:04_Bilgusthey are individual commits
17:28:39saratogahttps://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f0320a
17:28:52_Bilgusdebug menu went a day or two ago but how about we leave the higher default and remove the menu then you can manually set power save
17:28:59saratogathat should be a lot of separate commits
17:29:35_Bilgushttp://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/1732/9//COMMIT_MSG
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17:34:02fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 1024 seconds.
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17:35:50saratogamaybe i don't understand how git works?
17:35:58saratogai'm just looking at the front page commit log
17:36:34johnb7saratoga : I did a lot of testing with Bilgus, with various AMS v1/v2 devices I own. I personally am fond of the idea of having safe defaults, but giving the possibility of lowering them for non-susceptible devices.
17:36:34_BilgusI reverted it but I'm feeling like lower battery life is worth not breaking players
17:37:35_BilgusI'm going to push the higher volatge against all the players for now and I'll work on splitting this up when I have more time to screw with it
17:37:53saratogawhat higher voltages???
17:39:06_Bilgus(AS314_CP_DCDC3_SETTING | CVDD_1_15))
17:39:20_Bilgusascodec_write_pmu(0x17, 1, 0x80 | 26);
17:39:43_Bilguscurrently it is:
17:39:45_Bilgusascodec_write(AS3514_CVDD_DCDC3, (AS314_CP_DCDC3_SETTING | CVDD_1_10));
17:39:50 Quit alce (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:40:19saratogado you have a patch I can look at?
17:40:40saratogafwiw, i did not realize people were still working on the amsv1 power, were the problems I had with SD fixed?
17:41:43_BilgusI'm confused the patch to look at is what was pushed?
17:41:52_Bilgus(and now reverted)
17:42:40_Bilgusthe problems with sd on which player and what were the symptoms the only probalem I remember was with display on clipzip and I raised that frequency
17:43:32johnb7Fuze v1 for instance.
17:43:43_Bilgusthis has been sitting for 9 months so I'm not sure what other problems you might have had but I question why you didn't raise them in gerrit..
17:44:23saratogai thought this patch added a debug menu
17:44:41_Bilgusthis patch added a power save menu
17:44:53johnb7I mean months ago (I assume that is what saratoga is referring to). It was never completely stable back then.
17:45:05_Bilgusit allows people to choose the lower voltages (currently the defaults)
17:45:17saratogai would have told you not to commit that
17:45:40saratogai'm not sure what has changed with AMSv1, but the patch I saw last fall broke SD cards on my device
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17:45:50saratogai'm pretty sure thats been a problem since at least 2012
17:45:57saratogawas it fixed?
17:47:02_Bilgusthe sd card issue only occurs on high speed cards so it would work fine at default and could break high-speed cards if you activated power saving but you'd just disable the power saving and it would work again
17:47:39saratogaok i think i was confused about voltages above, you mean just for AMSv1?
17:48:04_Bilgusno it raises voltages by default for V@ as well
17:48:08_BilgusV2
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17:49:19_Bilgusthere are two voltages that are affected here we have the DCDC3 and CVDD2
17:49:57_Bilguson v1 devices they have the CVVD1 set at max always they don't like lower volatges
17:51:35_BilgusOTOH DCDC is 1.17v currently and the patch raises the default to 1.20 with the option for 1.17
17:51:52saratogai don't remember much about the v1 so i'll defer on voltage changes there
17:51:52 Quit alce (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
17:52:11saratogawhich build do i test on my fuzev1?
17:52:14_BilgusV@ is doing the same
17:52:44saratogai'm moving at the moment, but I was able to find where i packed my devices
17:53:15_BilgusV2 damn sticky shift key I just destroyed the builds that would be spit out give me a minute and I can rebuild and upload
17:53:26saratogabut in general, please do not commit large changes like this all at once with discussion and individual testing
17:53:45saratogado not change v1 and v2 devices at once, do not add new features and change hardware settings at once, etc
17:53:54saratogaits a nightmare to track down problems this way
17:55:54_Bilgusplenty of testing went into it but ok i'll split them up further
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18:03:17saratogatesting on the fuzev1, the voltage scaling patch doesn't break my sd card anymore, so thats a good step
18:04:32_Bilgusoh I was building one did you build your own then?
18:04:49saratogayeah i just built now from source
18:05:28saratogatesting c75aac8
18:05:35_Bilgusoh ok well anyways I'll screw with it later I'm going to put all the back end in and we can add the options one at a time
18:06:17_Bilgus#ifndef BOOTLOADER
18:06:17_Bilgus#define CONFIG_POWER_SAVING (POWERSV_CPU | POWERSV_I2C | POWERSV_DISK)
18:06:17_Bilgus#endif
18:06:44_Bilguswe can just add each flag one at a time per player (or player group) and it will spread out the builds
18:07:11fs-bluebotBuild Server message: 3Build round completed after 1090 seconds.
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18:07:30saratogai don't really like the idea of the power savings menu, this has been discussed and rejected at various points in the past
18:08:07saratogahistorically we always said that reasonable defaults should be chosen, rather than forcing users to guess
18:08:08 Quit alce (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:08:33saratogawhat are the advantages of the I2C and DISK power savings and why can't they just be on by default?
18:08:44_Bilgusthey make it SLOW
18:09:00johnb7when copying to SD
18:09:28saratogahow much power do they save?
18:09:28_Bilgusif I'm playing music sure thats fine but if I'm copying files or building a database or playing games
18:09:30johnb7or internal
18:09:59_BilgusIIRC 20-40%
18:11:23_Bilgustogether** I've not got enough info on each individually to give you a per option breakdown
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18:14:14_BilgusI took a clip+ and hooked it up to an uammmeter and tested each but it needs run with battery bench to really get a good baseline and data for each to really be empirical evidence
18:14:53saratoga20-40% for SD and i2C both?
18:14:58johnb7the I2C made a significant difference for Fuze v1.
18:15:17saratogasorry, i mean on amsv2?
18:15:26saratogapower management on amsv1 is all screwed up
18:15:36_BilgusI'm ok with removing the menu leaving the back end and make it so you have to manually add entries to the config.cfg file to enable it
18:16:46saratogaon the e200v2, previously i couldn't mount SD with the voltage scaling patches, now I can mount with CPU power savings set to on, but sometimes folders are empty and it freezes after a while
18:17:23_Bilguswell then that device isn't going to work properly with HEAD
18:18:11_Bilgusso if it works with CPU power saving OFF then it still has voltage scaling
18:18:31_Bilgusbut higher than the current defaults if that makes sense
18:19:15saratogai'll let it loop for a bit and see what happens
18:19:22saratogaamsv1 is all screwed up though
18:19:35_Bilgusthe other thing you should try is Disk power savings since it halves the sd clock it should (in theory) use less power
18:19:39saratogathe cpu is really slow for some reason and power consumption is very high relative to the Sandisk firmware
18:19:43saratogaso something is set very wrong
18:20:08saratogawhy does cutting the SD clock make a difference? isn't the SD clock gated when the storage isn't being used?
18:20:09_BilgusI fixed a lot in the disk driver for the V1
18:20:21_BilgusIt wasn't before..
18:20:27saratogahaha
18:20:56_Bilgussee here http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/1737/22/firmware/target/arm/as3525/sd-as3525.c
18:20:59saratogahas any of this been investigated on amsv2?
18:21:34saratogawe went through the clocks quite carefully and i thought all were quite close to optimal
18:21:55saratogaMihale tested everything and worked out how many mA were used for each thing
18:22:02saratogamihail
18:22:59_Bilgusthere wasn't a whole lot on the V2 its much closer to optimal than v1 but the margins for safety are too close
18:24:17saratogaas far as i know, the only recent v2 device with problems is the fuzev2, which makes sense since very few of those devices are out there and we couldn't test much
18:24:29johnb7saratoga : I have all of this active on 2 clip+, 2 Fuze V2, 2 Fuze V1. I have not had any issues on the AMS v2. V1 sometimes freezes when copying data over from the PC, but not any worse than HEAD.
18:24:32saratogaso i've raised its voltage, which fixes the reported issue
18:25:22saratogain general if there is some savings by lowering the SD clock or similar, i think the better approach is to just dynamically set the SD clock higher when in USB mode, and lower it when not needed
18:25:34saratogaor better yet idle the SD card entirely (if the hardware allows it) when not used
18:25:38_BilgusI'm pretty sure these low voltages exacerbate the storage failure especially when they crash
18:26:12_Bilgusv1 allows sd throttling v2 doesn't
18:26:18saratogayes quite possibly, we tried not to lower the sd card voltages, but apparently there is some connection between the CVDD1 voltage and SD on at least the fuzev2
18:28:05saratogaanyway, the fact that the lower cpu voltage on the e200v1 makes the sd card crash isn't comforting
18:28:05 Quit alce (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
18:28:29_BilgusI think the only sane thing to do is raise ALL the voltages and screw battery life and maybe give a debug option to lower them
18:28:44_Bilguswhich is what this powersave menu was all about
18:28:57saratogai don't want a menu option for this
18:29:02saratogajust pick reasonable defaults
18:29:26_Bilgusreasonable defaults are the highest setting
18:29:31saratogathe reason mihail spent all this time testing devices on the forums was to figure out what the minimum was, then we did a few levels higher
18:29:37saratogathats not reasonable
18:29:55_Bilgusand that doesn't have enough safety factor
18:30:02_Bilgusit kills players
18:30:08saratogaif you want to be as safe as possible, whatever the hardware sets itself to on boot
18:30:11_Bilgusnot every player
18:30:14saratogawhich is probably no where near maximum
18:30:36saratogabut of course, if you start doing dynamic frequency, then the voltage can be lowered below defaults, at least some
18:30:45saratogawe spent like a year testing this before committing it
18:31:13saratogai think everything is ok on the clip+ and zip since those are what most people have, but we could think about going a little higher if there is concern
18:31:28saratogai'm tempted to just put the fuzev2 a lot higher since its not well tested
18:31:30_BilgusI'll bbl the users are the testers now and they speak volumes more just look all over the forum for evidence
18:31:52saratogathats why we spent so long testing this before commiting
18:32:38_BilgusI'd be tempted to say that voltage lowering has had more problems than just about anything else across the Sansa line We should revert it
18:32:47_Bilgusbut its been there for too long
18:33:08saratogai don't think there are many problems at this point, they're ironed out by last year
18:33:31_Bilgusthere just aren't many players left to complain about it
18:33:32saratogai didn't like mihail's approach of pushing the voltage very low, but he was willing to do a lot of testing, so i didn't argue with him too much
18:33:51_Bilgustheyve lost their players to failed flash
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18:34:22saratogaby this point we've had a lot of people test on the more common devices and we don't seem to have any problems
18:36:17_Bilgusso what does it hurt to have an option for these low voltages and higher defaults
18:36:43_Bilgusyou are arguing about how we tested them and its ok but you have an issue with higher?
18:37:18_Bilgusor is the issue with the menu and you would be ok with a manual edit of the .cfg file to set up lower settigns?
18:37:45_Bilgusanyways I gtg Ill discuss this later
18:39:16saratogaforcing users to guess if they can adjust the voltages does not make sense, we should just figure it out and implement properly
18:39:48saratogaplus given the range of other bugs we can run into, having each user running different voltagese makes it very hard to know if a bug is real or just too little voltage
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18:40:08saratogafrom a support perspective, having everyone run the same hardware configuration is really, really helpful
18:41:07saratogaas for most of these settings, things like CVDD2 have an impact on runtime, but if we really think 2.75v isn't as safe for the sd card as the original default (2.8v) we should just give up a few minutes runtime and run at 2.8
18:41:50saratogai doubt the cpu voltage changes the sd card (since it runs at a higher voltage than the CPU), although it may cause the sd interface to fail if the cpu is undervolted too much
18:42:40saratogai'm skeptical most of these changes even matter, at least on amsv2
18:43:13saratogaor at least they should be well tested before implementing them to see if they actually matter
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20:52:21kingDiSo nothing new about wm1a kas cipher or format ?
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22:21:52tomfwould rockbox on an ipod 5.5 have issues with a 4gb FLAC (16/44)?
22:26:06tomfoh, I think its related to 'sample/frame number mismatch in adjacent frame'
22:26:34devponies[m]i don't think it would
22:27:00devponies[m]though the filesystem probably can't fit it
22:27:33tomfyeah, I think the file size is ok. This is a mix I made for party using Audition. I think there's something with the mixdown that caused this error. I'm using an iflash quad. The file is just under 4gb
22:27:44devponies[m]fat32 has a max size of 4GiB-1B per file
22:28:27devponies[m]depends on if your flac is over or under that
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22:28:56devponies[m]you'll have to get it under that somehow if it's over that
22:29:04tomfyeah, its actually closer to 3gb it seems −− so thats a breeze
22:29:11tomfthat error is from ffmpeg
22:30:42devponies[m]tomf: but why do you need a 1-2[2-3 if mono] hour long flac?
22:30:56tomfits nearly seven hours :)
22:31:08tomfits all mixed and beatmatched
22:31:37tomffoobar plays it perfectly −− but its a curious error
22:39:04tomfoh well, its not important. Just trying to sort out the cause of the issue. It looks like its the actual export that caused it
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