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| 00:48:47 | __builtin | with forums I think we should make an effort to preserve current URLs going forward |
| 00:50:02 | __builtin | we can make the current forums.rockbox.org redirect visitors to the archived site, and stand up the new forums under a different subdomain |
| 00:50:54 | __builtin | e.g. community.rockbox.org, discourse.rockbox.org, or similar |
| 00:55:15 | speachy | yeah, that seems sane. |
| 00:55:26 | speachy | I'd go for community personally |
| 00:55:35 | __builtin | yeah, me too |
| 00:56:59 | __builtin | I'd like to reach some sort of community consensus on this before we move forward, though |
| 01:00 |
| 01:06:51 | speachy | any meaningful thoughts on $NewSystem? |
| 01:07:19 | __builtin | maybe it makes sense to reach a consensus among devs first |
| 01:09:11 | speachy | of the "statically archive the old site and move to something new |
| 01:09:18 | speachy | ..new" approach you mean? |
| 01:09:52 | __builtin | we're archiving only forums, right? |
| 01:10:20 | * | __builtin thinks we should call this approach the "cut 'n paste" approach |
| 01:11:03 | speachy | I believe so. |
| 01:11:17 | __builtin | I |
| 01:11:36 | speachy | granted, if someone else comes along and wants to host/admin/maintain the existing forums, perhaps we should let them. :) |
| 01:12:06 | __builtin | I think SMF needs to go for the security factor if nothing else |
| 01:12:38 | __builtin | and its clear inability to filter out bots without human intervention |
| 01:12:58 | speachy | Has SMF been abandoned upstream too? |
| 01:13:21 | speachy | looks like it's still going |
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| 01:13:33 | __builtin | apparently not... |
| 01:13:53 | speachy | we're running a version at least 6 years old |
| 01:14:11 | speachy | needless to say we're missing a boatload of security fixes |
| 01:15:11 | speachy | dunno if modern versions are any more resilient to bots. insofar as any system that allows anyone to create accounts can be. |
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| 01:17:18 | __builtin | how much work would it be to migrate to the current SMF? |
| 01:17:39 | __builtin | if it's excessive then we might be better off standing up a fresh discourse site and archiving the current forums |
| 01:18:01 | speachy | with the caveat that I don't know how much customization rockbox has done, I have to imagine it won't be hard to incrementally upgrade from the v2.0.3 to the current 2.0.19 |
| 01:19:00 | __builtin | I do think that migrating to discourse would give us the longest-term solution, as I think it's likely to be maintained long after SMF is gone |
| 01:19:00 | speachy | won't change the structural problems with the forum but at least it won't be a flaming security dumpster fire |
| 01:19:29 | __builtin | "structural problems" - exactly |
| 01:20:06 | speachy | SMF is FreeSoftare(tm), so much like rockbox it will never die. :P |
| 01:20:30 | __builtin | I mean, so is discourse |
| 01:20:47 | speachy | to me it's more about the hosting headaches rather than the underlying software |
| 01:21:02 | speachy | whatever is chosen needs to be actively administered and maintained. |
| 01:24:19 | __builtin | I think discourse wins in that respect by virtue of greater adoption->more support resources/documentation |
| 01:28:53 | speachy | My main unease about hosting forums (in general, not SMF specifically) is that it's my (and/or my employer's) neck if a user posts something inappropriate. the rest of the infrastructure is currently limited to more "trusted" folks. |
| 01:30:24 | __builtin | hmm... makes sense |
| 01:32:06 | speachy | I'm part of a research group at $dayjob, and as long as there's no conflict of interest with what $mothership does, contributing to the developement of F/OSS is encouraged. |
| 01:32:59 | __builtin | the DMCA provides for a so-called "safe harbor" for internet-hosted services, so long as we comply with takedown requests |
| 01:34:15 | speachy | we have to have a designated agent for takedowns. |
| 01:35:04 | speachy | heh, on the other hand, if this COVID-19 stuff drags on for a while, even download.rockbox's BW usage won't register.. |
| 01:36:53 | speachy | it would be interesting to see some analytics on download.rockbox. |
| 01:37:28 | __builtin | speachy: who is "we"? Rockbox or $dayjob? |
| 01:37:41 | speachy | a few years ago I ended up needing to block some IP ranges for a crawler because it kept re-downloading multi-gb video files. |
| 01:38:17 | speachy | "we" with respect to DMCA is rockbox. if $dayjob gets a notification directly this whole thing is more likley to get shut down than not. |
| 01:39:20 | __builtin | Ah. It's not hard to comply though, is it? |
| 01:39:22 | speachy | there are a fee layers of indirection, thankfully. I'm the technical contact for my lab's ISP, and the admin contact sits behind me. |
| 01:40:22 | speachy | so there's no direct connection to $mothership |
| 01:41:12 | speachy | registering a DMCA agent costs ... $6? |
| 01:42:21 | speachy | and it can just be a made-up title "Copyright Manager for Rockbox" hidden behind a dmca@rockbox.org alias |
| 01:45:07 | speachy | hmm, forums are hosted on a linode server, which means it's already under US jurisdiction. |
| 01:45:37 | __builtin | there's the slight complication of Rockbox not being a legal entity, however |
| 01:45:58 | speachy | the important bit is that there's a published contact |
| 01:48:15 | speachy | ugh. the registered agent has to provide full legal name, street address, etc etc. |
| 01:48:26 | __builtin | Yeah, that's the problem |
| 01:49:05 | speachy | well, I do have an LLC set up |
| 01:49:18 | __builtin | "Hacks" |
| 01:50:02 | speachy | I suppose it's no worse than it is now |
| 01:50:57 | __builtin | so you would serve as the contact? |
| 01:51:30 | * | speachy didn't quite realize he was volunteering to become Mr. Rockbox... |
| 01:53:32 | speachy | it's not like I registered an agent for anything else that I'm hosting. Granted 95% of it is mine anyway. |
| 01:55:02 | __builtin | Could I or someone else do it without providing an address? |
| 01:55:49 | speachy | I wonder if there are forwarding services for this sort of thing. |
| 01:57:20 | speachy | at the end of the day, rockbox is a tiny uninteresting corner of the 'net. Unless someone starts publishing pirated software or music or whatever on our infrastructure, nobody's going to care |
| 01:58:26 | * | speachy sighs. |
| 02:00 |
| 02:00:10 | speachy | Okay, given that rockbox isn't a legal entity, there's no point in attempting to register a DMCA agent for that organization |
| 02:02:45 | speachy | but it's still a good idea to create some mail aliases (copyright@ or dmca@) that appropriate parties would receive. |
| 02:04:15 | speachy | ...that was a pointless diversion |
| 02:07:33 | speachy | as part of this migration plan/proposal, I (or whomever) is going to need appropriate low-level credentials on the existing infrastructure for some basic fact-finding. |
| 02:08:21 | speachy | with regards to SMF, it probably makes sense to try and upgrade it to a supported version prior to any other actions |
| 02:08:36 | speachy | unless we just archive it as-is and replace it wholesale. |
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| 03:46:06 | _Bilgus | Personally even if we just upgrade I thing archiving and read-only the existing forums is a good idea |
| 03:46:19 | _Bilgus | think* |
| 03:47:05 | _Bilgus | especially considering ~40-70% of the users look to be bots |
| 03:49:48 | _Bilgus | Also if we still have dcma hanging over our heads then it really needs to be segregated a bit more I think and very good backups in case shit hits the fan |
| 03:59:30 | speachy | well, I back up all of my stuff nightly, including full textual DB dumps. I maintain 4 weeks of nightly snapshots. |
| 03:59:49 | speachy | and the backups in this case are separated by about 20 miles. |
| 04:00 |
| 04:01:17 | speachy | and yes, I've tested recovery multiple times. :D |
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| 04:51:40 | _Bilgus | the themes site probably should be hosted elsewhere |
| 04:52:26 | _Bilgus | and.. probably the forums as well |
| 04:55:15 | _Bilgus | maybe themes could be moved to sourceforge or something |
| 05:00 |
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| 12:48:00 | speachy | what's the rationale for hosting themes elsewhere? |
| 12:49:17 | gevaerts | I assume the same "untrusted user content"? |
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| 12:57:21 | * | speachy has never actually looked at themes.rockbox until a few minutes ago |
| 12:58:27 | speachy | does sourceforge host PHP sites? |
| 12:59:19 | speachy | themes is much less of an inherent target than forums |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:33 | speachy | huh, looks like some of the targets are still seeing active theme development. I wouldn't have thunk that.. |
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| 20:01:25 | cereal_eater | I followed the discussion about migrating Rockbox services. Would donating help? The paypal button on the front page leads to a haxx.se email address. Can this be used? |
| 20:09:34 | gevaerts | Björn is still there, and there's no bad feelings or anything like that, so yes, that's still fine. Whether money would help with migrating or hosting is a question for those who are actually working on it, I don't know. |
| 20:13:48 | cereal_eater | Thank for your answer gevaerts. I'd like to support the project and the migratiing process and I am willing to donate. |
| 20:15:17 | cereal_eater | Maybe those who are working on it are pleased about a donation. |
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| 20:31:45 | speachy | I can safely say that donations are always welcomed, though it's a bit premature to talk about specific migration costs |
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| 22:13:06 | lodzie | hey yall |
| 22:13:15 | lodzie | got a basic understanding of rockbox and c# |
| 22:13:23 | lodzie | and i own a modded toshiba gigabeat f |
| 22:13:33 | bertrik | hi |
| 22:13:45 | lodzie | just wondering if anyone had any forum posts or a how to on how to develop plugins in c or lua |
| 22:13:46 | bertrik | rockbox is written mostly in C, not c# |
| 22:14:10 | bertrik | I think there is an example plugin, IIRC |
| 22:14:20 | lodzie | link? |
| 22:15:16 | bertrik | apps/plugins/helloworld.c |
| 22:16:40 | bertrik | https://github.com/Rockbox/rockbox/blob/master/apps/plugins/helloworld.c |
| 22:16:47 | lodzie | thanks so much mate |
| 22:16:53 | bertrik | https://github.com/Rockbox/rockbox/blob/master/apps/plugins/helloworld.lua |
| 22:17:42 | lodzie | damn the lua one is complex |
| 22:18:15 | lodzie | also what do i use to compile? |
| 22:18:47 | speachy | https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HowToCompile |
| 22:18:59 | lodzie | thanks |
| 22:20:47 | lodzie | just asking, any ideas for plugins? emulators, utilities, anything. |
| 22:20:58 | lodzie | really wanna get into the rockbox community |
| 22:21:08 | lodzie | even happy to patch bugs on an old one :) |
| 22:22:37 | bertrik | I think people here are happy to see someone still interested |
| 22:23:16 | bertrik | but honestly I think you'll probably not get a lot of help because it's been years since the peak of active development |
| 22:23:21 | bertrik | to put it mildly |
| 22:23:55 | lodzie | yea, i got a general sense that this whole thing is dead lol |
| 22:24:19 | lodzie | im currently making a copy of EVERYTHING rb related as a proxy for after bjorn takes it down in 2021 |
| 22:24:36 | lodzie | ill post the link here when it's done and up and running |
| 22:24:45 | lodzie | but in terms of plugins... |
| 22:24:46 | speachy | that's really not necessary at this time. |
| 22:24:55 | Lonoxmont | there is a migration plan of sorts in place |
| 22:24:56 | speachy | all source code is already mirrored |
| 22:25:00 | Lonoxmont | though one more backup probably wont hurt |
| 22:25:08 | lodzie | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
| 22:25:10 | speachy | everythign else will be migrated in one form or another |
| 22:25:15 | lodzie | always good to have another |
| 22:25:48 | lodzie | anyways, just setting up the vmware image |
| 22:25:52 | speachy | it's not "mirrors" that matter though −− it's someone(s) that make sure it keeps going. :) |
| 22:25:55 | lodzie | excited to stary working on this L) |
| 22:26:04 | lodzie | :) |
| 22:26:21 | speachy | technology is easy, people are hard |
| 22:26:29 | lodzie | nah |
| 22:26:57 | lodzie | im a 14 year old dirtbag whiio has nothing better to do with his life then mess around with cfw's for obsolete products |
| 22:27:50 | lodzie | so rb fits perfectly XD |
| 22:28:22 | speachy | it's always good to have a specific project/goal in mind. |
| 22:28:33 | lodzie | yea |
| 22:28:34 | speachy | some itch of your own that you are scratching at |
| 22:29:07 | bertrik | I learned that just learning new stuff can be a good goal too |
| 22:29:30 | bertrik | and having fun doing it |
| 22:30:51 | lodzie | fair point |
| 22:31:54 | bertrik | I mean, don't hit yourself over the head if you don't reach the goal |
| 22:32:11 | lodzie | ik |
| 22:32:16 | lodzie | ill just do what i can :) |
| 22:32:36 | bertrik | OTOH, if the goal is to explore stuff, have fun and learn something, you basically can't fail :D |
| 22:34:54 | lodzie | thanks, ill keep that in mind |
| 22:35:13 | lodzie | just kinda wanna help revive an otherwise dead community thats all |
| 22:36:58 | Lonoxmont | good! |
| 22:37:01 | Lonoxmont | we need people like that |
| 22:37:28 | speachy | yep! |
| 22:38:07 | lodzie | just getting an environment setup now, gonna try a few things, ill get back to you guys soon with any results/questions, cya :D |
| 22:39:45 | Lonoxmont | good luck |
| 22:39:58 | Lonoxmont | i had a really rough time building the toolchain from scratch |
| 22:40:17 | Lonoxmont | there is a development vm image available with everything already set up |
| 22:40:27 | Lonoxmont | you could start there if you want to get thigns working quickly |
| 22:41:56 | bertrik | for plugins, I think you can probably do a relatively short development cycle: compile, upload, start, see if it works, exit |
| 22:42:28 | bertrik | without having to upload rockbox completely each try |
| 22:42:50 | bertrik | I guess it's probably even a little simpler for a lua plugin |
| 22:43:46 | speachy | heh heh. |
| 22:44:16 | speachy | overcoming the build environment quirks is a good first step towards demonstrating resilience. :P |
| 22:44:37 | bertrik | oh, and there's a rockbox simulator! |
| 22:45:03 | speachy | though that does remind me.. I had intended to, post-3.15, to bump all of the non-archos toolchains to (at minimum) GCC 4.9 |
| 22:45:30 | speachy | that alone would solve a lot of the build environment headaches. |
| 22:45:58 | Lonoxmont | omg please do it |
| 22:46:07 | Lonoxmont | it was such a giant pain getting the toolchain built |
| 22:46:18 | speachy | the general consensus was that HWCODEC players should be dropped altogether, nicely eliminating the sh toolchain |
| 22:46:39 | Lonoxmont | could also just leave them on a legacy branch or w/e |
| 22:46:57 | Lonoxmont | with notice that 'hey guys this is dead get new players kthnx' |
| 22:47:00 | speachy | it's all in git, therefore is effectively forever. |
| 22:47:12 | Lonoxmont | ah, true |
| 22:47:36 | speachy | the actual concern with bumping toolchains is the possibility of introducing subtle bugs |
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| 22:48:43 | Lonoxmont | im sure any bugs that do arise could be fixed |
| 22:48:57 | speachy | yep, just didn't want to do that prior to the first "stable" release in years |
| 22:49:21 | speachy | but there's not a lot of manpower here |
| 22:49:43 | speachy | $RealLife tends to get in the way of hackery |
| 22:49:45 | Lonoxmont | could go recruiting on other pleaces |
| 22:49:57 | Lonoxmont | idk how many out there even know that rockbox is a thing |
| 22:50:15 | speachy | standalone DAPs are pretty much an anachronism these days |
| 22:50:49 | Lonoxmont | i use mine at work all day every day :V |
| 22:51:13 | speachy | though recently there have been a pile of pretty high quality units out of China, but it takes a _lot_ of effort to reverse engineer one of those, even if you have access to readable/useful datasheets. |
| 22:51:52 | bertrik | oh? |
| 22:52:08 | * | speachy has used his rockbox'd DAPs nearly every day for something like 18 years. |
| 22:52:29 | speachy | didn't contribute anything other than the occasional bug report until just last year though. |
| 22:52:33 | bertrik | it's all android linux stuff I thought |
| 22:53:14 | speachy | no, most Rockbox targets are bare-metal realtime applications. |
| 22:53:28 | bertrik | I mean the new stuff |
| 22:53:57 | speachy | that said most (all) of the commercially-available targets are running as an application on top of the DAP's Linux distro. |
| 22:54:28 | Lonoxmont | is that good or bad |
| 22:54:52 | speachy | we lose a lot of flexibility, but it at least does allow for a useful system without having to write everything from scratch. |
| 22:55:40 | speachy | the AGPTek Rocker, for example, has some annoying sound glitches that are easily solveable if we had access to the kernel sources. |
| 22:56:15 | speachy | but getting source code out of Chinese companies is pretty much impossible. |
| 22:56:36 | Lonoxmont | just hire a different chinese company to steal it :B |
| 22:56:51 | Lonoxmont | i mean its pretty much subcontractors all the way down over there |
| 22:56:56 | speachy | like most other problems, it can be solved with sufficient time and money |
| 22:56:58 | Lonoxmont | someone in the chain is a weak link |
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| 22:57:55 | speachy | Untill a Chinese organization is willing to enforce the GPL on other Chinese companies... it won't change. |
| 22:58:06 | lodzie | something to push for i guess |
| 22:58:31 | speachy | I spend most of my F/OSS time reverse-engineering printers. |
| 22:58:46 | speachy | Rockbox is purely for fun though. |
| 22:59:05 | * | speachy needs a hobby that doesn't involve staring at computer screens... |
| 22:59:28 | Lonoxmont | TTRPGs :B |
| 23:00 |
| 23:01:13 | speachy | Rockbox still has a few niches, most notably for blind or visually impared folks, where Rockbox's accessibility features are unmatched. |
| 23:01:49 | speachy | but as a mainstream concern, the DAP ship has long since sailed. Heck, I think tube amps have a bigger market these days. :P |
| 23:02:43 | speachy | but as long as folks are sufficiently capable/interested/obsessed to port it to relevant hardware, Rockbox will live on.. |
| 23:09:06 | | Quit lodzie (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 23:10:50 | Lonoxmont | kind alike people porting linux to toasters and potatos... |
| 23:14:02 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 23:15:33 | speachy | a modern potato has more mips than Linux had available when he started. :) |
| 23:16:03 | Lonoxmont | lol |
| 23:17:04 | bertrik | luxury! |
| 23:19:04 | | Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: "It's now safe to turn off your computer.") |
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| 23:49:21 | | Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.) |
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