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#rockbox log for 2020-03-16

00:17:57 Join ac_laptop [0] (~ac_laptop@185.21.213.21)
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00:29:54 Join ufdm [0] (~ufdm@c-75-72-10-216.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
00:48:47__builtinwith forums I think we should make an effort to preserve current URLs going forward
00:50:02__builtinwe can make the current forums.rockbox.org redirect visitors to the archived site, and stand up the new forums under a different subdomain
00:50:54__builtine.g. community.rockbox.org, discourse.rockbox.org, or similar
00:55:15speachyyeah, that seems sane.
00:55:26speachyI'd go for community personally
00:55:35__builtinyeah, me too
00:56:59__builtinI'd like to reach some sort of community consensus on this before we move forward, though
01:00
01:06:51speachyany meaningful thoughts on $NewSystem?
01:07:19__builtinmaybe it makes sense to reach a consensus among devs first
01:09:11speachyof the "statically archive the old site and move to something new
01:09:18speachy..new" approach you mean?
01:09:52__builtinwe're archiving only forums, right?
01:10:20*__builtin thinks we should call this approach the "cut 'n paste" approach
01:11:03speachyI believe so.
01:11:17__builtinI
01:11:36speachygranted, if someone else comes along and wants to host/admin/maintain the existing forums, perhaps we should let them. :)
01:12:06__builtinI think SMF needs to go for the security factor if nothing else
01:12:38__builtinand its clear inability to filter out bots without human intervention
01:12:58speachyHas SMF been abandoned upstream too?
01:13:21speachylooks like it's still going
01:13:31***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
01:13:33__builtinapparently not...
01:13:53speachywe're running a version at least 6 years old
01:14:11speachyneedless to say we're missing a boatload of security fixes
01:15:11speachydunno if modern versions are any more resilient to bots. insofar as any system that allows anyone to create accounts can be.
01:15:42 Quit ac_laptop (Quit: WeeChat 2.6)
01:17:18__builtinhow much work would it be to migrate to the current SMF?
01:17:39__builtinif it's excessive then we might be better off standing up a fresh discourse site and archiving the current forums
01:18:01speachywith the caveat that I don't know how much customization rockbox has done, I have to imagine it won't be hard to incrementally upgrade from the v2.0.3 to the current 2.0.19
01:19:00__builtinI do think that migrating to discourse would give us the longest-term solution, as I think it's likely to be maintained long after SMF is gone
01:19:00speachywon't change the structural problems with the forum but at least it won't be a flaming security dumpster fire
01:19:29__builtin"structural problems" - exactly
01:20:06speachySMF is FreeSoftare(tm), so much like rockbox it will never die. :P
01:20:30__builtinI mean, so is discourse
01:20:47speachyto me it's more about the hosting headaches rather than the underlying software
01:21:02speachywhatever is chosen needs to be actively administered and maintained.
01:24:19__builtinI think discourse wins in that respect by virtue of greater adoption->more support resources/documentation
01:28:53speachyMy main unease about hosting forums (in general, not SMF specifically) is that it's my (and/or my employer's) neck if a user posts something inappropriate. the rest of the infrastructure is currently limited to more "trusted" folks.
01:30:24__builtinhmm... makes sense
01:32:06speachyI'm part of a research group at $dayjob, and as long as there's no conflict of interest with what $mothership does, contributing to the developement of F/OSS is encouraged.
01:32:59__builtinthe DMCA provides for a so-called "safe harbor" for internet-hosted services, so long as we comply with takedown requests
01:34:15speachywe have to have a designated agent for takedowns.
01:35:04speachyheh, on the other hand, if this COVID-19 stuff drags on for a while, even download.rockbox's BW usage won't register..
01:36:53speachyit would be interesting to see some analytics on download.rockbox.
01:37:28__builtinspeachy: who is "we"? Rockbox or $dayjob?
01:37:41speachya few years ago I ended up needing to block some IP ranges for a crawler because it kept re-downloading multi-gb video files.
01:38:17speachy"we" with respect to DMCA is rockbox. if $dayjob gets a notification directly this whole thing is more likley to get shut down than not.
01:39:20__builtinAh. It's not hard to comply though, is it?
01:39:22speachythere are a fee layers of indirection, thankfully. I'm the technical contact for my lab's ISP, and the admin contact sits behind me.
01:40:22speachyso there's no direct connection to $mothership
01:41:12speachyregistering a DMCA agent costs ... $6?
01:42:21speachyand it can just be a made-up title "Copyright Manager for Rockbox" hidden behind a dmca@rockbox.org alias
01:45:07speachyhmm, forums are hosted on a linode server, which means it's already under US jurisdiction.
01:45:37__builtinthere's the slight complication of Rockbox not being a legal entity, however
01:45:58speachythe important bit is that there's a published contact
01:48:15speachyugh. the registered agent has to provide full legal name, street address, etc etc.
01:48:26__builtinYeah, that's the problem
01:49:05speachywell, I do have an LLC set up
01:49:18__builtin"Hacks"
01:50:02speachyI suppose it's no worse than it is now
01:50:57__builtinso you would serve as the contact?
01:51:30*speachy didn't quite realize he was volunteering to become Mr. Rockbox...
01:53:32speachyit's not like I registered an agent for anything else that I'm hosting. Granted 95% of it is mine anyway.
01:55:02__builtinCould I or someone else do it without providing an address?
01:55:49speachyI wonder if there are forwarding services for this sort of thing.
01:57:20speachyat the end of the day, rockbox is a tiny uninteresting corner of the 'net. Unless someone starts publishing pirated software or music or whatever on our infrastructure, nobody's going to care
01:58:26*speachy sighs.
02:00
02:00:10speachyOkay, given that rockbox isn't a legal entity, there's no point in attempting to register a DMCA agent for that organization
02:02:45speachybut it's still a good idea to create some mail aliases (copyright@ or dmca@) that appropriate parties would receive.
02:04:15speachy...that was a pointless diversion
02:07:33speachyas part of this migration plan/proposal, I (or whomever) is going to need appropriate low-level credentials on the existing infrastructure for some basic fact-finding.
02:08:21speachywith regards to SMF, it probably makes sense to try and upgrade it to a supported version prior to any other actions
02:08:36speachyunless we just archive it as-is and replace it wholesale.
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03:13:34***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
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03:46:06_BilgusPersonally even if we just upgrade I thing archiving and read-only the existing forums is a good idea
03:46:19_Bilgusthink*
03:47:05_Bilgusespecially considering ~40-70% of the users look to be bots
03:49:48_BilgusAlso if we still have dcma hanging over our heads then it really needs to be segregated a bit more I think and very good backups in case shit hits the fan
03:59:30speachywell, I back up all of my stuff nightly, including full textual DB dumps. I maintain 4 weeks of nightly snapshots.
03:59:49speachyand the backups in this case are separated by about 20 miles.
04:00
04:01:17speachyand yes, I've tested recovery multiple times. :D
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04:51:40_Bilgusthe themes site probably should be hosted elsewhere
04:52:26_Bilgusand.. probably the forums as well
04:55:15_Bilgusmaybe themes could be moved to sourceforge or something
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12:48:00speachywhat's the rationale for hosting themes elsewhere?
12:49:17gevaertsI assume the same "untrusted user content"?
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12:57:21*speachy has never actually looked at themes.rockbox until a few minutes ago
12:58:27speachydoes sourceforge host PHP sites?
12:59:19speachythemes is much less of an inherent target than forums
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13:00:33speachyhuh, looks like some of the targets are still seeing active theme development. I wouldn't have thunk that..
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20:00
20:01:25cereal_eaterI followed the discussion about migrating Rockbox services. Would donating help? The paypal button on the front page leads to a haxx.se email address. Can this be used?
20:09:34gevaertsBjörn is still there, and there's no bad feelings or anything like that, so yes, that's still fine. Whether money would help with migrating or hosting is a question for those who are actually working on it, I don't know.
20:13:48cereal_eaterThank for your answer gevaerts. I'd like to support the project and the migratiing process and I am willing to donate.
20:15:17cereal_eaterMaybe those who are working on it are pleased about a donation.
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20:31:45speachyI can safely say that donations are always welcomed, though it's a bit premature to talk about specific migration costs
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22:12:41 Join lodzie [0] (7652f493@118.82.244.147)
22:13:06lodziehey yall
22:13:15lodziegot a basic understanding of rockbox and c#
22:13:23lodzieand i own a modded toshiba gigabeat f
22:13:33bertrikhi
22:13:45lodziejust wondering if anyone had any forum posts or a how to on how to develop plugins in c or lua
22:13:46bertrikrockbox is written mostly in C, not c#
22:14:10bertrikI think there is an example plugin, IIRC
22:14:20lodzielink?
22:15:16bertrikapps/plugins/helloworld.c
22:16:40bertrikhttps://github.com/Rockbox/rockbox/blob/master/apps/plugins/helloworld.c
22:16:47lodziethanks so much mate
22:16:53bertrikhttps://github.com/Rockbox/rockbox/blob/master/apps/plugins/helloworld.lua
22:17:42lodziedamn the lua one is complex
22:18:15lodziealso what do i use to compile?
22:18:47speachyhttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HowToCompile
22:18:59lodziethanks
22:20:47lodziejust asking, any ideas for plugins? emulators, utilities, anything.
22:20:58lodziereally wanna get into the rockbox community
22:21:08lodzieeven happy to patch bugs on an old one :)
22:22:37bertrikI think people here are happy to see someone still interested
22:23:16bertrikbut honestly I think you'll probably not get a lot of help because it's been years since the peak of active development
22:23:21bertrikto put it mildly
22:23:55lodzieyea, i got a general sense that this whole thing is dead lol
22:24:19lodzieim currently making a copy of EVERYTHING rb related as a proxy for after bjorn takes it down in 2021
22:24:36lodzieill post the link here when it's done and up and running
22:24:45lodziebut in terms of plugins...
22:24:46speachythat's really not necessary at this time.
22:24:55Lonoxmontthere is a migration plan of sorts in place
22:24:56speachyall source code is already mirrored
22:25:00Lonoxmontthough one more backup probably wont hurt
22:25:08lodzie¯\_(ツ)_/¯
22:25:10speachyeverythign else will be migrated in one form or another
22:25:15lodziealways good to have another
22:25:48lodzieanyways, just setting up the vmware image
22:25:52speachyit's not "mirrors" that matter though −− it's someone(s) that make sure it keeps going. :)
22:25:55lodzieexcited to stary working on this L)
22:26:04lodzie:)
22:26:21speachytechnology is easy, people are hard
22:26:29lodzienah
22:26:57lodzieim a 14 year old dirtbag whiio has nothing better to do with his life then mess around with cfw's for obsolete products
22:27:50lodzieso rb fits perfectly XD
22:28:22speachyit's always good to have a specific project/goal in mind.
22:28:33lodzieyea
22:28:34speachysome itch of your own that you are scratching at
22:29:07bertrikI learned that just learning new stuff can be a good goal too
22:29:30bertrikand having fun doing it
22:30:51lodziefair point
22:31:54bertrikI mean, don't hit yourself over the head if you don't reach the goal
22:32:11lodzieik
22:32:16lodzieill just do what i can :)
22:32:36bertrikOTOH, if the goal is to explore stuff, have fun and learn something, you basically can't fail :D
22:34:54lodziethanks, ill keep that in mind
22:35:13lodziejust kinda wanna help revive an otherwise dead community thats all
22:36:58Lonoxmontgood!
22:37:01Lonoxmontwe need people like that
22:37:28speachyyep!
22:38:07lodziejust getting an environment setup now, gonna try a few things, ill get back to you guys soon with any results/questions, cya :D
22:39:45Lonoxmontgood luck
22:39:58Lonoxmonti had a really rough time building the toolchain from scratch
22:40:17Lonoxmontthere is a development vm image available with everything already set up
22:40:27Lonoxmontyou could start there if you want to get thigns working quickly
22:41:56bertrikfor plugins, I think you can probably do a relatively short development cycle: compile, upload, start, see if it works, exit
22:42:28bertrikwithout having to upload rockbox completely each try
22:42:50bertrikI guess it's probably even a little simpler for a lua plugin
22:43:46speachyheh heh.
22:44:16speachyovercoming the build environment quirks is a good first step towards demonstrating resilience. :P
22:44:37bertrikoh, and there's a rockbox simulator!
22:45:03speachythough that does remind me.. I had intended to, post-3.15, to bump all of the non-archos toolchains to (at minimum) GCC 4.9
22:45:30speachythat alone would solve a lot of the build environment headaches.
22:45:58Lonoxmontomg please do it
22:46:07Lonoxmontit was such a giant pain getting the toolchain built
22:46:18speachythe general consensus was that HWCODEC players should be dropped altogether, nicely eliminating the sh toolchain
22:46:39Lonoxmontcould also just leave them on a legacy branch or w/e
22:46:57Lonoxmontwith notice that 'hey guys this is dead get new players kthnx'
22:47:00speachyit's all in git, therefore is effectively forever.
22:47:12Lonoxmontah, true
22:47:36speachythe actual concern with bumping toolchains is the possibility of introducing subtle bugs
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22:48:43Lonoxmontim sure any bugs that do arise could be fixed
22:48:57speachyyep, just didn't want to do that prior to the first "stable" release in years
22:49:21speachybut there's not a lot of manpower here
22:49:43speachy$RealLife tends to get in the way of hackery
22:49:45Lonoxmontcould go recruiting on other pleaces
22:49:57Lonoxmontidk how many out there even know that rockbox is a thing
22:50:15speachystandalone DAPs are pretty much an anachronism these days
22:50:49Lonoxmonti use mine at work all day every day :V
22:51:13speachythough recently there have been a pile of pretty high quality units out of China, but it takes a _lot_ of effort to reverse engineer one of those, even if you have access to readable/useful datasheets.
22:51:52bertrikoh?
22:52:08*speachy has used his rockbox'd DAPs nearly every day for something like 18 years.
22:52:29speachydidn't contribute anything other than the occasional bug report until just last year though.
22:52:33bertrikit's all android linux stuff I thought
22:53:14speachyno, most Rockbox targets are bare-metal realtime applications.
22:53:28bertrikI mean the new stuff
22:53:57speachythat said most (all) of the commercially-available targets are running as an application on top of the DAP's Linux distro.
22:54:28Lonoxmontis that good or bad
22:54:52speachywe lose a lot of flexibility, but it at least does allow for a useful system without having to write everything from scratch.
22:55:40speachythe AGPTek Rocker, for example, has some annoying sound glitches that are easily solveable if we had access to the kernel sources.
22:56:15speachybut getting source code out of Chinese companies is pretty much impossible.
22:56:36Lonoxmontjust hire a different chinese company to steal it :B
22:56:51Lonoxmonti mean its pretty much subcontractors all the way down over there
22:56:56speachylike most other problems, it can be solved with sufficient time and money
22:56:58Lonoxmontsomeone in the chain is a weak link
22:57:18 Quit petur (Remote host closed the connection)
22:57:55speachyUntill a Chinese organization is willing to enforce the GPL on other Chinese companies... it won't change.
22:58:06lodziesomething to push for i guess
22:58:31speachyI spend most of my F/OSS time reverse-engineering printers.
22:58:46speachyRockbox is purely for fun though.
22:59:05*speachy needs a hobby that doesn't involve staring at computer screens...
22:59:28LonoxmontTTRPGs :B
23:00
23:01:13speachyRockbox still has a few niches, most notably for blind or visually impared folks, where Rockbox's accessibility features are unmatched.
23:01:49speachybut as a mainstream concern, the DAP ship has long since sailed. Heck, I think tube amps have a bigger market these days. :P
23:02:43speachybut as long as folks are sufficiently capable/interested/obsessed to port it to relevant hardware, Rockbox will live on..
23:09:06 Quit lodzie (Remote host closed the connection)
23:10:50Lonoxmontkind alike people porting linux to toasters and potatos...
23:14:02***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:15:33speachya modern potato has more mips than Linux had available when he started. :)
23:16:03Lonoxmontlol
23:17:04bertrikluxury!
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