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| 08:14:47 | speachy | forums, translate, and themsite all https enabled properly now |
| 08:17:29 | speachy | themes (and download) are the only sites not forced to be https-only |
| 08:17:44 | speachy | until rbutil can handle them sanely |
| 08:19:21 | pamaury | speachy: hey, I didn't answer on the mailing but I want to say thank you for the all the hard work you are doing and all the transition :) |
| 08:20:46 | speachy | this isn't entirely altrusitic, but you're welcome. :) |
| 08:21:32 | speachy | the eventual motivating goal is to remove impediments to contributing. |
| 08:22:51 | speachy | putting aside the fact that reverse-engineering/hacking baremetal real-ish-time hardware+software can ever not have a daunting learing curve.. |
| 08:25:01 | Bilgus | I hope we get an ipod contributer It might just be that they are popular but I'm thinking they are just a support nightmare |
| 08:25:21 | speachy | they practically defined the entire market |
| 08:25:49 | speachy | Is apple still selling "classic" ipods? |
| 08:25:56 | Bilgus | F NO |
| 08:26:55 | speachy | IME supporting anything-Apple is a nightmare. |
| 08:27:23 | Bilgus | last I saw they wanted to sell this touch screen almost a phone or maybe it was a phone monstrosity |
| 08:27:45 | Bilgus | but thats been years ago |
| 08:28:00 | speachy | the ipod touch is/was basically an iphone minus the cellular modem. |
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| 08:28:41 | Bilgus | yeah thats the last one I saw and it did not give me warm fuzzies lol |
| 08:28:54 | speachy | have one of them floating around here; inerited it from $job-1 where it was used for Bluetooth LE interop testing. |
| 08:28:57 | livvy | I love my classic - shame they dont make them like they used to |
| 08:31:30 | speachy | but yeah, would be really nice to have someone here that knows the ipod fairly well. |
| 08:33:02 | Bilgus | Yeah they are still selling the touch |
| 08:33:27 | speachy | ...well enough to help with that PP data abort that's holding up the gcc494 move. |
| 08:33:41 | livvy | speachy: ive been trying to learn in earnest but I found finding the right documentation to be a challenge |
| 08:34:32 | Bilgus | Not that any other company does either most everything here was reverse engineered |
| 08:34:48 | Bilgus | I should note 'By people smarter than I' |
| 08:35:02 | speachy | there aren't terribly many "onboarding" tasks with rockbox. A goodly number of the issues are hardware-specific bugs, and the rest.. well, the codebase is well-written but there's a _lot_ of it. |
| 08:35:46 | Bilgus | I can't wait to get rid of HWCodec and knock out 15% |
| 08:36:22 | | Quit koniu (Remote host closed the connection) |
| 08:36:46 | livvy | Bilgus: heh. i'm out of my depth with my current knowledge (didn't focus at such a low level). |
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| 08:36:54 | speachy | personally I want to rip hwcodec out after the toolchain uprev lands. |
| 08:37:58 | speachy | the recorderv1 "retirement" has been a good dry-run so far |
| 08:38:12 | livvy | does anyone have any books/resources/suggestions for reverse engineering hardware? hah |
| 08:39:31 | speachy | hardware RE is generally mechanical in nature, trace out the PCB etc. that's necessary, but one can't do that to the chips themselves. |
| 08:39:53 | speachy | This is a decent book for SW: https://www.amazon.com/Practical-Reverse-Engineering-Reversing-Obfuscation/dp/1118787315/ |
| 08:41:29 | speachy | to be effective you have to know the basic CPU architechure reasonably well (especially with respect to memory layouts), how structures are constructed in memory.. |
| 08:44:38 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 084aa9c, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 08:45:04 | livvy | TY. I can use a pen, paper and my brain reasonably well, just needed to motivation to learn the technicals since I'm programming at high level in my job. Thanks for the resource and pointers though speachy |
| 08:46:10 | livvy | I'll see what I can learn before the end of the year :) |
| 08:47:16 | Bilgus | I'm going to get these AMS clock patches out of my tree I kinda forgot about them |
| 08:47:34 | speachy | livvy, if you aren't already familar with the rudiments of microcontrollers, that's a good place to start −− pick up an arduino or something along those lines and do something "useful" with it. |
| 08:48:31 | Bilgus | or esp8266 |
| 08:48:34 | speachy | and step outside of the IDEs to see what's really going on −− things like "write a for loop, see what it looks like in asm" sort of thing. |
| 08:48:59 | speachy | IMO the ARM Cortex-M are the most pleasant micros to work with |
| 08:49:38 | speachy | as an added bonus you can drive them with pure C using FreeSoftware from end-to-end. |
| 08:50:40 | livvy | > and step outside of the IDEs to see what's really going on −− things like "write a for loop, see what it looks like in asm" sort of thing |
| 08:50:43 | livvy | this is good suggestion |
| 08:51:02 | livvy | *is a |
| 08:51:52 | speachy | you will also get to see how interrupts are handled, and how hardare peripherals are driven. |
| 08:52:22 | Bilgus | and why people don't write in ASM anymore :P |
| 08:52:25 | speachy | does wonders for clarifying your thinking about how to write this stuff. and eventually recognize these patterns well enough to reverse-engineer things |
| 08:53:03 | * | speachy has strong opinions that nobody should be allowed to write code in a JS browser framework without going through a bare-metal education process. |
| 08:56:15 | speachy | livvy, it helps that we usually have access to manufacturer datasheets for various components, including the SoCs. But not always. |
| 08:58:36 | * | gevaerts also has opinions about that, but due to limited experience with ASM he thinks C is bare-metal enough :) |
| 08:59:55 | Bilgus | I think C forces you to at least understand some of the internal side but people hate that apparently |
| 09:00 |
| 09:00:01 | gevaerts | C is at least low-level enough that operations that are expensive start to look expensive |
| 09:00:02 | livvy | speachy: yes, i were looking at some for the S5L8702 but were stumped trying to find details about the DW usb controller. but I were probably grasping at straws more than not so I need to some studying for sure |
| 09:01:09 | livvy | gevaerts: :') |
| 09:01:14 | gevaerts | I *like* being able to concatenate strings by having a + between them, but I also think it's good to know that it's a lot more expensive than adding up numbers |
| 09:01:23 | gevaerts | And C shows you that |
| 09:01:31 | gevaerts | ASM shows it even more, of course |
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| 09:02:34 | livvy | gevaerts: as a novice haskeller, i probably couldn't be further from adhering to your philosophy |
| 09:03:40 | livvy | but I do love C. suckless software has a close place in my heart :P |
| 09:04:00 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 6ed38c8, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 09:04:24 | speachy | C is rarely insufficent, even for what we do. |
| 09:04:50 | speachy | the DW USB controller deserves to die a horrid death. |
| 09:06:30 | Bilgus | I would argue that this is the perfect place for C I can't imagine interfacing with all these devices in any of the higher level languages and still have it be intuitive |
| 09:06:43 | Bilgus | not to say it couldn't be done... |
| 09:07:00 | livvy | speachy: finding the registers seemed to prove pretty hard for that thing |
| 09:07:00 | speachy | you could make reasonable argument for C++. |
| 09:07:13 | gevaerts | livvy: I really have nothing against languages that make such things easy, that's a *good* thing. What's bad is the natural assumption of people who haven't seen the other side that what *looks* cheap *is* cheap |
| 09:07:50 | speachy | Rust too, though I'm not sure how well it will work for true bare-metal applications. |
| 09:07:53 | gevaerts | So I claim that if you're familiar with C, you're going to write better haskell |
| 09:08:55 | livvy | gevaerts: yeah, I guess it's the "React devs" who've just gone though a 12 week coding bootcamp that I worry about :P |
| 09:09:33 | livvy | s/worry about/have sympathy for/ |
| 09:10:41 | Bilgus | Speachy are the devices in the build page able to be aranged differently or are they strictly alphabetic? |
| 09:10:44 | * | gevaerts nods |
| 09:11:10 | speachy | "autobuilder status" page you mean? |
| 09:11:34 | Bilgus | yeah I guess they are arranged based on position in the build list |
| 09:11:38 | speachy | they're alphabetic based on the long-form name out of the 'builds' file. the size listing is alphabetic based on the target name |
| 09:12:48 | Bilgus | just slightly annoying all the blank spaces maybe they can disappear when the table compacts again |
| 09:14:29 | speachy | I added a test to show the column if any builds in it are missing. I could tweak it to exclude the retired builds. |
| 09:19:27 | Bilgus | that would work I mean if they don't get build why have them highlighted in the list |
| 09:19:34 | Bilgus | built* |
| 09:19:59 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: Build round completed after 958 seconds. |
| 09:21:45 | Bilgus | that was quicker |
| 09:22:44 | speachy | partially fixed. |
| 09:23:01 | Bilgus | :p |
| 09:28:39 | speachy | there. |
| 09:29:09 | speachy | dtange how the size didn't change for those last two clip commits. I'd have expected _some_ movement... |
| 09:33:02 | speachy | bin size changed, but not the ram size. |
| 09:38:41 | speachy | thoughts on how I can change the visualization? two tables, one bin, one ram that toggle like the short/full build list? |
| 09:41:07 | Bilgus | currently it does some adding of the two no? |
| 09:41:45 | speachy | only one or the other is actually displayed. both are available in the tooltip |
| 09:41:57 | Bilgus | bins didn't change because they are just getting inlined once something else calls them I'd expect that to change a bit |
| 09:42:10 | speachy | what was displayed was ram usage, not bin size. |
| 09:42:16 | Bilgus | OH i thought it added the change together |
| 09:42:23 | speachy | I regenerated it showing the bin |
| 09:42:31 | speachy | which matches the descriptive text |
| 09:43:44 | Bilgus | I think the bin size is probably more important but two tables wouldn't be terrible |
| 09:44:23 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 4f49d21, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 09:44:25 | speachy | most targets, bin size goes up, so must ram usage. |
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| 09:49:18 | Bilgus | I do notice the sizes don't seem to be bouncing around anymore |
| 09:50:02 | speachy | I don't recall if the size list used to include sim/etc builds, but it doesn't any more. |
| 09:50:20 | speachy | lost all the historical build data |
| 09:50:24 | Bilgus | oh maybe it did but I'm not thinking so |
| 09:50:26 | speachy | size data, I mean |
| 09:50:45 | speachy | but now sizes are stored in the DB properly. |
| 09:51:30 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 09:57:09 | Bilgus | build page looks much better less OCD food there, thanks! |
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| 10:00 |
| 10:00:16 | speachy | damnit, why is that last row still acting all screwed up. |
| 10:02:15 | speachy | there. |
| 10:03:16 | Bilgus | was it just skipping them or something or maybe a formatting issue? |
| 10:03:55 | Bilgus | anyone object to g#1706? |
| 10:03:57 | fs-bluebot_ | Gerrit review #1706 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1706 : Sansa Clip+ Clip V1, V2 updated simulator images by William Wilgus |
| 10:04:28 | Bilgus | I mean they've only been sitting there for ~3 years |
| 10:04:32 | speachy | no, it queries numrounds * numbuilds rows from the db, except numbuilds comes from the file and not the db. so when we nuke/retire builds, we end up pulling too few rows. |
| 10:04:56 | speachy | the proper solution is to write a smarter db query |
| 10:05:14 | Bilgus | ah |
| 10:05:18 | speachy | I was going to ask about 1706 actually. I see no reason it can't go in |
| 10:05:33 | speachy | glad to see a little bit of gerrit cleanup |
| 10:05:43 | Bilgus | I just kinda forgot about everthing on the second page |
| 10:05:46 | | Part assa ("WeeChat 1.6") |
| 10:06:43 | speachy | heh, second of 17 pages. :D |
| 10:07:04 | Bilgus | lol no I meant my second page :p |
| 10:10:40 | Bilgus | actually I went traipsing through gerrit I think theres quite a bit that just need to get abandoned |
| 10:11:02 | speachy | yeah. I think I have the rights to do that now but I had enough on my plate already |
| 10:11:11 | Bilgus | preferably by the original author but that seems unlikly |
| 10:11:24 | speachy | there are something like 300 old patches in flyspray too |
| 10:11:27 | gevaerts | I think you can safely ignore my stuff there. IIRC it's all fun experiments but nothing finished or maybe even "serious" |
| 10:12:09 | speachy | first round will need to be stuff that's already been merged one way or another. |
| 10:12:25 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 2244305, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 10:13:03 | Bilgus | yeah superseded makes at least a few percent |
| 10:13:54 | gevaerts | Hmm, there are a few I remember *nothing* about... |
| 10:14:19 | gevaerts | "Add a setting to allow preferring file-based album art"? |
| 10:14:47 | Bilgus | as opposed to folder based? |
| 10:15:03 | gevaerts | tag, presumably |
| 10:15:17 | gevaerts | I mean, I only wrote that code, I have no idea what it does :) |
| 10:15:30 | gevaerts | g#756 |
| 10:15:32 | fs-bluebot_ | Gerrit review #756 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/756 : Add a setting to allow preferring file-based album art. by Frank Gevaerts |
| 10:15:40 | speachy | hmm, this is interesting. g#272 |
| 10:15:42 | fs-bluebot_ | Gerrit review #272 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/272 : Drop size entries from voicefiles. by Dominik Riebeling |
| 10:18:56 | gevaerts | speachy: given other stuff you've done recently, g#1126 might be a quick yes/no for you |
| 10:20:56 | speachy | gevaerts, looks like that change is already committed. |
| 10:21:08 | gevaerts | Oh, great :) |
| 10:22:57 | * | gevaerts closes it |
| 10:23:38 | gevaerts | 272 is interesting indeed. Seems like a good idea |
| 10:25:13 | blbro[m] | Hmm. Why did that never get in? |
| 10:25:28 | * | blbro[m] tries to remember |
| 10:26:13 | speachy | g#282 might be redundant now |
| 10:26:14 | fs-bluebot_ | Gerrit review #282 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/282 : Reworking playlist viewer to use memory more efficiently. by Purdea Andrei |
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| 10:26:22 | blbro[m] | Be aware that this might need a rebuilt Rockbox Utility, or break its voice files with old releases. |
| 10:26:51 | gevaerts | That's probably it. Maybe not enough review, and then the logistics of rolling it out |
| 10:26:55 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: Build round completed after 870 seconds. |
| 10:26:56 | speachy | ew. I keep forgetting about rbutil's out-of-band nature. |
| 10:28:22 | speachy | on the size table, does it make sense to exclude the 0-size deltas from the averaging, so it only averages those that changed? |
| 10:30:08 | gevaerts | Hmmm |
| 10:30:22 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 326b7a5, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 10:30:27 | gevaerts | Interesting question |
| 10:30:31 | blbro[m] | Rockbox Utility could easily create boths formats if there is a way to tell which one to use. |
| 10:31:27 | blbro[m] | Once that cryptopp thing is sorted I can also create an updated macos binary. I've also looked into creating an appimage for linux lately. |
| 10:31:42 | gevaerts | There are two reasons a delta can be 0. One is alignment and other randomness, in which case it should count I think, the other is that that target doesn't have the changed feature, in which case counting it is somewhat misleading |
| 10:32:15 | Bilgus | Re: G-282 is so old that most of it doesn't even exist anymore |
| 10:33:44 | gevaerts | Looks like I have the dubious honour to have the oldest unmerged change request :) |
| 10:36:24 | Bilgus | lol 2012 huh |
| 10:38:33 | Bilgus | someone was asking about functionality provided by G#174 |
| 10:38:35 | fs-bluebot_ | Gerrit review #174 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/174 : Play music or complex tones with square wave channel. by Michael Sevakis |
| 10:38:45 | Bilgus | maybe that was on the forum |
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| 10:45:39 | speachy | at build time we don't know why a delta is 0, only that it is. |
| 10:45:55 | speachy | most of the time it's that nothing changed. |
| 10:46:12 | gevaerts | Does anyone actually really care about the average though? |
| 10:47:05 | speachy | good question. IMO it's useless, but I left it in. |
| 10:48:44 | gevaerts | Yes, it doesn't hurt a lot to just have it there |
| 10:49:26 | gevaerts | But changing what it means requires an informed opinion I think, not a hunch from someone who doesn't look at the number :) |
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| 11:00 |
| 11:00:29 | speachy | I mean, one can't infer anything useful from the delta of 1 across those two clip commits you made. |
| 11:00:39 | speachy | beyond "something changed" |
| 11:02:05 | gevaerts | A quick glance at the delta table is mostly useful to spot unexpected changes or to check that expectations match reality if you did intend a change |
| 11:02:29 | gevaerts | "Why did the Archos Player increase for this bitmap-only change?" |
| 11:31:54 | speachy | sorry, meant to say "average delta of 1" |
| 11:32:27 | speachy | deltas are quite useful, I find myself agreeing that the averages are questionable. |
| 11:36:15 | * | gevaerts nods |
| 11:38:39 | speachy | made the change to only average the ones that changed |
| 11:51:33 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 11:58:30 | speachy | that's odd.. build a8ae936 isn't showing up. utterly failed across the board due to an ISP hiccup. |
| 12:00 |
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| 12:12:29 | | Quit johnb4 (Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de) |
| 12:13:37 | speachy | fixed. blank row is ugly but it's important that we know that a round simply didn't happen. |
| 12:16:50 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision a8ae936, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
| 12:17:07 | speachy | let's see how badly this breaks the master db. :D |
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| 12:35:23 | speachy | excellent. Just had to correct the round timestamp so the ordering was correct |
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| 13:38:04 | gevaerts | speachy: looks like the "rockbox forums" image on the forums is still loading over http |
| 13:40:47 | gevaerts | I'm trying to find where that's set... |
| 13:43:39 | gevaerts | Found it! I'll fix it |
| 13:43:58 | gevaerts | Done |
| 13:44:54 | gevaerts | Admin -> Configuration -> Current Theme -> Logo image URL |
| 13:46:08 | gevaerts | I suspect that can be a relative path, actually, but I didn't want to risk breaking stuff |
| 13:51:37 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 14:00 |
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| 14:10:14 | speachy | sweet, thanks |
| 14:10:53 | speachy | smf has a lot of wonkiness like that. For example the base URL for themes is different for some reason. |
| 14:43:53 | gevaerts | Finally having that on https is good |
| 14:50:07 | Bilgus | Especially with the way things are going forced https and whatnot |
| 15:00 |
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| 15:08:21 | Bilgus | hmm html manual is broken for the clipzip yet the pdf version is fine :/ |
| 15:09:13 | | Quit riku1 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) |
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| 15:32:56 | Bilgus | oh great its been so long since I built a m,anual I nolonger have laTEX :/ |
| 15:37:49 | speachy | was about to say, the nightly manual builds work for all targets.. |
| 15:38:56 | Bilgus | no it is borken |
| 15:39:23 | Bilgus | yet the exact same section is fine for the clip+ |
| 15:39:51 | Bilgus | but only the html version is messed |
| 15:40:05 | speachy | which section? |
| 15:40:20 | Bilgus | https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipzip/rockbox-buildch13.html#x15-39500013.4 |
| 15:40:39 | Bilgus | https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansaclipplus/rockbox-buildch13.html#x15-36600013.4 |
| 15:41:15 | Bilgus | fuzeplus is broken in the same place :/ |
| 15:41:19 | speachy | huh, guess the nightl manual builds don't properly error out. |
| 15:41:44 | Bilgus | https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-sansafuzeplus/rockbox-buildch13.html#x15-40300013.4 |
| 15:41:57 | Bilgus | yet the pdf versions are fine?? WEIRD |
| 15:42:31 | speachy | htmltex has its own quirks |
| 15:42:47 | Bilgus | well in 40 - 60 mins maybe ill be able to build a manual |
| 15:45:14 | speachy | 'Environment exampleredirect undefined' |
| 15:45:23 | Bilgus | pretty sure its been broken for 10 months since I updated the manual for multiboot |
| 15:46:51 | Bilgus | wonder wtf its failing on that |
| 15:47:49 | Bilgus | http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/1947/3/manual/advanced_topics/main.tex |
| 15:47:50 | speachy | that 'exampleredir |
| 15:48:04 | speachy | manual/advanced_topics/main.c:718 |
| 15:48:11 | Bilgus | it has a /begin tag just prior |
| 15:48:14 | speachy | it's barfing on that. |
| 15:48:56 | Bilgus | ill just make it quote it |
| 15:50:43 | Bilgus | thanks speachy i'll still have to wait for this install to build it but atleast I can do my patching |
| 15:51:14 | speachy | frustrating that 'make manual-html' isn't erroring out properly. |
| 15:51:41 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 15:52:37 | Bilgus | oh I see the issue begin is suppose to denote a list and I bet it is picking up the slash as such |
| 15:54:49 | Bilgus | hmm maybe not |
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| 16:51:53 | Bilgus | wow that was a lot of warnings |
| 16:52:12 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision b935475, 292 builds, 10 clients. |
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| 17:05:40 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: Build round completed after 808 seconds. |
| 17:10:16 | Bilgus | ah crap I guess I'll have to wait till tomorrow to see if it built proper |
| 17:18:43 | speachy | seemed to build ok for me |
| 17:19:08 | speachy | ch13 now goes all the way to 13.5.5 and navigation buttons |
| 17:19:34 | Bilgus | Yeah I built it locally first but I think it only updates on the main site once daily? |
| 17:19:38 | speachy | yeah |
| 17:20:31 | speachy | I've been thinking of making the manual builds farmed out like the others |
| 17:20:59 | Bilgus | I think i'd leave it like that |
| 17:21:20 | Bilgus | that way we have some time if something breaks horribly |
| 17:21:44 | speachy | you mean leave it as-is? |
| 17:21:54 | Bilgus | yeah |
| 17:22:01 | speachy | at the moment it goes months before anyone notices. :) |
| 17:22:36 | speachy | tex4htm failing without an appropriate error code is a problem. |
| 17:22:37 | Bilgus | lol yeah but I do check for my own stuff at least once a year! |
| 17:23:27 | Bilgus | I try to play naive user every once in a while and sometimes I forget enough that its actually true |
| 17:24:15 | Bilgus | though try as I might today I couldn't reproduce the failure to reformat a 128GB exfat => Fat32 |
| 17:31:17 | speachy | the nightly manual build is a little wonky though. "version rUnversioned directory-200523" |
| 17:31:52 | Bilgus | huh? |
| 17:32:11 | speachy | look at page two of any of the PDFs up right now |
| 17:33:44 | Bilgus | huh maybe something with LaTex 's cfg? |
| 17:34:54 | Bilgus | I should go look at one of the old ones |
| 17:38:03 | speachy | this has to do with the incestuous symlinks all over the place; version.sh is getting invoked from a path outside its git repo |
| 17:41:58 | Bilgus | I only have old html versions unfortunately |
| 17:43:06 | speachy | or the splash page of any html manual on the site now too |
| 17:49:53 | speachy | fingers crossed. let's see if this succeeds.. |
| 17:50:09 | Bilgus | I have a html manual built in 2016 that has the same |
| 17:50:20 | Bilgus | so its not new |
| 17:50:20 | speachy | well, it's getting fixed now. |
| 17:50:31 | Bilgus | Go Speachy! |
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| 17:53:04 | * | speachy needs relatively non-braintaxing stuff to distract him from the post-surgical colors. |
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| 18:05:55 | speachy | okay, fixed. |
| 18:06:07 | speachy | https://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-archosondiosp/rockbox-build.html |
| 18:06:22 | speachy | rebuilt only this one but the rest will get picked up tonight |
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