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| 01:13:53 | blbro[m] | speachy rbutil doesn't use the genlang script on the server if the strings are on the player. |
| 01:14:40 | blbro[m] | There's a file voicestrings.zip iirc that has them. If that is missing it queries the server. |
| 01:15:39 | blbro[m] | Since we have that in place I was wondering before if we should kill the genlang www stuff ... Forgot about it though :) |
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| 06:59:23 | mendel_munkis | TIL: updating while in middle of testing debug builds is a bad idea. |
| 06:59:49 | mendel_munkis | (thankfully I didn't overwrite my production build with a test) |
| 07:00 |
| 07:05:17 | mendel_munkis | Bilgus: I'm not sure if it's related to your pictureflow fixes but I just updated and pictureflow no longer finds any album artwork. (the previous version was based on HEAD sep 2019) |
| 07:08:46 | mendel_munkis | turning off resize album art fixes that. |
| 07:30:59 | speachy | blbro[m], as long as rbutil calls that URL it'll have to stay on the www site. |
| 07:32:28 | speachy | and.. the stuff in voicestrings.zip has gaps vs English. |
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| 07:41:20 | blbro[m] | That shouldn't have gaps ... Rbutil uses that for voice file creation if present. |
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| 07:43:10 | speachy | no gaps, just missing entries at the end |
| 07:43:40 | blbro[m] | Though ... Maybe it falls back to english if entries are missing? Can't remember. |
| 07:43:42 | speachy | genlang acts differently in its various modes. |
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| 07:44:38 | __Bilgus_ | mendel_munkis Thanks, I'm sure its related at least in proximity if nothing else |
| 07:44:54 | __Bilgus_ | so no artwork found while resize is enabled |
| 07:45:46 | speachy | apparently in the binary blob mode (ie for the player firmware to consume) genlang removes all strings not present in English, and anything missing gets left out. |
| 07:46:22 | speachy | so the player firmware must be the one falling back to English for missing text strings. |
| 07:48:37 | blbro[m] | Hmm? I always thought genlang does the fallback. Much more complicated on the player ... |
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| 07:49:25 | speachy | the way it seems to work on the player is that there's table of pointers for each string ID, and that gets updated for each string present in the new language file. |
| 07:50:04 | speachy | and it always loads English first (as it's built into the binary) so that's how the fallback is done |
| 07:50:57 | __Bilgus_ | mendel_munkis not sure whats going on there I can't repro and don't see what resizing the art has to do with not finding it eithe |
| 07:50:58 | __Bilgus_ | r |
| 07:52:41 | __Bilgus_ | I assume you let it finish building the cache at the beginning w/ progressbar did it give any error messages like 'bad artwork' |
| 07:55:33 | speachy | here's the fun bit −− genlang generates different voicestrings if you're in binary vs voicebinary vs voicelist mode. only binary + voicebin did the right thing. |
| 07:55:51 | speachy | (by stripping out strings not present in English) |
| 07:56:08 | speachy | voicebin-only and voicelist-only did not. |
| 08:00 |
| 08:01:20 | speachy | trying to figure out if always stripping not-present-in-English will break anything. (the -u option, maybe?) |
| 08:04:03 | speachy | so, the big question −− is it better to have English-string voice fallback, or no voice at all? |
| 08:07:38 | speachy | (and that's "english as pronounced by $lang's tts rules") |
| 08:15:47 | __Bilgus_ | oh mendel could you try setting resize back to true and see if it works now it could be that the cfg didn't rebuild the cache till you choose to not resize artwork |
| 08:16:46 | __Bilgus_ | speachy thats probably still preferable to silent failure |
| 08:17:53 | speachy | so I've fixed genlang to filter vs english for all voice modes |
| 08:18:26 | speachy | now comes filling in the missing strings for voicefile.zip |
| 08:18:36 | __Bilgus_ | weird I thought it already did that not just in special circumstances |
| 08:19:13 | speachy | it only filtered if "binary" mode was on (ie what generates the player-ready .lng from the source .lang files) |
| 08:19:52 | speachy | since the makefiles generated binary .voicelist at the same time, it accidentally worked |
| 08:20:22 | speachy | but it didn't work right if you generated non-binary voicelists (ie what an AV build with 'make voice' does) |
| 08:20:31 | * | speachy shakes his head. |
| 08:21:26 | __Bilgus_ | well at least it fails loudly now! |
| 08:22:12 | speachy | at least it's fixed in 2/3 use cases now. :) |
| 08:22:52 | __Bilgus_ | makes me wonder how many times misformed voice files were the fault of a non reproducible crash |
| 08:23:19 | speachy | yeah |
| 08:23:44 | speachy | ...all I wanted to do was generate some non-english voices nightly. |
| 08:23:51 | speachy | ... serves me right |
| 08:24:08 | __Bilgus_ | I think thats how cans of worms generally get opened |
| 08:25:53 | speachy | okay, voicestrings.zip is now done right. |
| 08:26:08 | __Bilgus_ | (TM) |
| 08:26:35 | speachy | only added something like 70K to the zip file. |
| 08:27:34 | __Bilgus_ | BB was saying it grabbed it off the server if it didn't exist so same amount of bandwidth used I presume |
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| 08:28:30 | speachy | each rockbox.zip binary file will be larger, so there's definitely going to be a hit |
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| 08:29:52 | speachy | g#2526 and g#2527 |
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| 08:29:55 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #2526 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/2526 : genlang: Skip strings not present in english in all voicelist modes by Solomon Peachy |
| 08:29:55 | fs-bluebot | Gerrit review #2527 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/2527 : voice: Ensure all voicelist files in voicefiles.zip are complete by Solomon Peachy |
| 08:34:32 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision ca31bad, 295 builds, 10 clients. |
| 08:53:21 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 1129 seconds. |
| 08:53:22 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Revision ca31bad result: 6 errors 83 warnings |
| 09:00 |
| 09:12:04 | mendel_munkis | __Bilgus_: yes I waited for it to rebuild the cache with no errors (several times.) |
| 09:12:22 | mendel_munkis | It's rebuilding the cache with resize reenabled now |
| 09:12:25 | speachy | estonian had a couple of issues, fixed.. |
| 09:12:59 | mendel_munkis | yeah apparently it lied about rebuilding the cache |
| 09:13:11 | mendel_munkis | it works fine now with resize on. |
| 09:14:34 | mendel_munkis | does logf to serial break dumping log to file? |
| 09:15:41 | speachy | damnit. voicestring generation still not complete −− voice-only strings aren't being backfilled. |
| 09:22:16 | speachy | no, they are, but the ordering is different. |
| 09:22:16 | speachy | the ID is correct but the output order is different. I hope that doesn't actually matter. |
| 09:26:39 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision cb3363f, 295 builds, 10 clients. |
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| 09:27:51 | speachy | blbro[m], your builder is still hiccupping on simulator builds. can you investigate why? |
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| 09:54:04 | * | speachy gently prods fs-bluebot |
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| 10:00 |
| 10:06:21 | Strife89 | Lol, so much for my desktop being "decent" |
| 10:06:44 | Strife89 | Fourth-lowest score |
| 10:06:50 | speachy | the upload speed hurts you. but don't forget the others all have hot ccaches |
| 10:07:48 | Strife89 | Good point |
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| 10:09:37 | gevaerts | My builders are a core2 and an atom. You must win against those! :) |
| 10:13:51 | Strife89 | By points/sec., I do! Barely! |
| 10:15:04 | gevaerts | Ah, I lied. Not an Atom, an AMD thing of similar status |
| 10:15:13 | Strife89 | Ahhh, neat |
| 10:15:24 | speachy | one of the Bobcat cores? |
| 10:15:26 | Strife89 | I forgot AMD even participated in that class |
| 10:15:33 | gevaerts | "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU 6300 @ 1.86GHz" and "AMD Athlon(tm) II Neo N36L Dual-Core Processor" according to /proc/cpuinfo |
| 10:18:02 | Strife89 | Oh man, I remember the desktop I used to have. Called it "tsubotsubo", and for most of it's life, it's had a Celeron 450 |
| 10:18:36 | Strife89 | And I tried running it as a builder |
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| 10:57:01 | Strife89 | speachy: I know you've been busy with genlang, but I was wondering whether you looked at the batterybench I pasted last night. |
| 10:57:22 | * | speachy not-so-politely pokes fs-bluebot. |
| 10:59:21 | Strife89 | You might have to smack it with a large trout ... |
| 11:00 |
| 11:01:34 | speachy | nope, haven't checked into that |
| 11:01:39 | speachy | one fire at at a time. |
| 11:02:49 | speachy | I just enabled the code that builds multiple voices nightly. Only have three enabled that were positively confirmed as sane (english, english-us, and polish) |
| 11:04:03 | * | speachy kicks off another Vivado run. |
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| 11:06:33 | speachy | It's a shame that there's no easy way to optimize the post-commit tasks to not run if nothing relevant changed. |
| 11:10:22 | bluebrother | speachy: I disabled sim builds on that box for now. |
| 11:13:07 | bluebrother | no idea what's going wrong. When trying to build manually everything's fine :/ |
| 11:14:24 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 1151 seconds. |
| 11:14:26 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Revision ead398a result: All green |
| 11:23:54 | speachy | gotta love those heisenbugs |
| 11:25:12 | speachy | wtf, vivado segfaulted? that's... new. |
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| 12:13:23 | speachy | rather than attempting to recreate make in shell scripts... why not just do it in make to begin with.. |
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| 12:42:17 | Strife89 | My laptop joins the build farm |
| 12:42:35 | Strife89 | While on my work's fast(er) Internet :D |
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| 13:05:07 | man150 | Hello Speachi, I have tested your new dayily generated voices, I have tested Slovak and English languages, Both are OK, I can test the Czech language too. |
| 13:13:20 | speachy | man150, thanks for the sanity check. I did not generate czech voices though, as it fell below the "good" coverage target (95%) I used. |
| 13:15:12 | speachy | Czech is at 91% coverage |
| 13:15:18 | man150 | I can translate new strings in the Czech language |
| 13:15:31 | speachy | that would be appreciated! |
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| 13:22:03 | speachy | worth mentioning that there are global "voice corrections" that do things like sound out acronyms ("MP3" -> "M P 3") either globally or per-language |
| 13:31:35 | speachy | Strife89, if you'd like to try another newer-toolchain-compiled build on your ipodcolor, let me know. I'm curious if the startup issues you were having are resolved, or if there's still something wrong with that target (in a way that the mini2g doesn't demonstrate) |
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| 14:45:04 | Strife89 | speachy: Sure, I'm willing to try |
| 14:47:32 | speachy | Strife89: http://www.shaftnet.org/~pizza/rb-ipodcolor-70f1682f91.zip |
| 14:50:18 | Strife89 | Thanks, I'll try it out once I get to a stopping point |
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| 15:04:15 | Strife89 | speachy: Still get "failed reading .voice" on startup, and the device appears to freeze when I attempt to shut down |
| 15:05:33 | Strife89 | Scratch that, now I think it's just freezing shortly after it reaches the main menu |
| 15:05:54 | Strife89 | The backlight is stuck on, so I don't think it's an I/O wait issue |
| 15:06:33 | speachy | okay, so it's no good. good data point, will have to look into whre the mini2g and color diverge |
| 15:07:09 | Strife89 | Third boot attempt: freeze on Apple logo |
| 15:07:35 | speachy | the only difference between that and the build you were previously running is being compiled with '-Os' |
| 15:07:37 | Strife89 | Fourth boot: Definitely freezes even if I don't attempt to go anywhere from the main menu |
| 15:07:50 | speachy | so something's clearly being miscompiled. |
| 15:08:58 | Strife89 | Reverting to my previous build :) |
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| 15:59:46 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 9adfab9, 295 builds, 11 clients. |
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| 16:12:24 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Build round completed after 758 seconds. |
| 16:12:25 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: Revision 9adfab9 result: All green |
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| 20:22:48 | speachy | yay, got the multiboot loader installed on my old clip+. no more internal flash wear.. |
| 20:27:53 | Strife89 | I forgot that was a thing! How's it coming along? |
| 20:28:22 | Strife89 | I have a Clip+, Clip Zip, c250, and e260 - all of which could benefit ... |
| 20:28:29 | speachy | well, means I can once again use it again without wondering if each bootup will be the last |
| 20:28:30 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 20:28:51 | speachy | the multiboot loader has been live on the download site (and rbutil) since the end of 2020 |
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| 20:31:45 | speachy | I think it's just the clip+, fuze+, clipzip, and fuzev2 −− the c250/e260 aren't covered. |
| 20:31:55 | speachy | fuzev1 too |
| 20:32:35 | Strife89 | So is this a thing built into current builds (for supported players)? Other than putting .rockbox and the "player" stub on the microSD, do I need to do anything else (such as updating the bootloader)? |
| 20:33:05 | speachy | you have to re-flash the bootloader (via rbutil or whatever) |
| 20:33:18 | Strife89 | Okay |
| 20:33:38 | Strife89 | Also, are you a time traveler? |
| 20:33:43 | speachy | and a dev/daily build. |
| 20:34:00 | Strife89 | "the multiboot loader has been live [...] since the end of 2020" |
| 20:34:23 | speachy | eh, it's just a typical off-by-one programmer error. |
| 20:34:32 | speachy | (that should have read ...2021) |
| 20:34:41 | Strife89 | :) |
| 20:37:34 | Strife89 | I miss having a Fuze v1 ... those things are freakin' expensive everywhere I've looked |
| 20:37:51 | speachy | I have a dead v1 and several v2s in my pile of broken dreams. |
| 20:38:01 | Strife89 | I went through two while I was in college. Both died of unknown causes |
| 20:38:13 | speachy | they were awesome but physically pretty fragile. plus with that awful ribbon connector that would break if you breathed on it funny |
| 20:38:32 | Strife89 | Guh. No wonder. |
| 20:38:44 | TheEaterOfSouls | My Clip v1 still works |
| 20:38:52 | TheEaterOfSouls | Bought in 2008 |
| 20:39:20 | speachy | if left in vehicles the heat cycles would make the case more brittle, combined with battery swelling, broke the cases on more than one of mine |
| 20:39:45 | Strife89 | I once had an iPod Video which once flew out of my jacket pocket, tumbled on the concrete, *came open*, and it was still fine. (What killed it was me, several years later when the Select button broke and I took it apart to take a look - and accidentally snapped off the power connector) |
| 20:40:34 | Strife89 | Meanwhile the Fuze could die if you glared at it |
| 20:41:01 | speachy | they didn't like being inside a black car in florida summers. |
| 20:41:17 | speachy | but even beyond that I seem to be pretty destructive to my players even though they rarely leave the car |
| 20:41:38 | Strife89 | Do you have butterfingers like me? |
| 20:41:58 | speachy | yes, but with high luck rolls |
| 20:42:40 | speachy | the x3 I've been using has proven to be physically indestrucitble. I could probably drive over it. |
| 20:42:50 | Strife89 | Nice |
| 20:43:01 | TheEaterOfSouls | So I just bought an XDuoo X3 |
| 20:43:10 | Strife89 | Also nice |
| 20:43:28 | Strife89 | I hope to be able to buy one someday |
| 20:43:41 | TheEaterOfSouls | I'm blind though, so have no idea what I'm doing until I can get Rockbox booted with a voice file |
| 20:43:46 | speachy | the v1 is hard to find. v2s seem to be going out too. |
| 20:43:49 | Strife89 | Oh, ouch. |
| 20:44:14 | Strife89 | To both your blindness and the scarcity of X3s |
| 20:44:15 | speachy | TheEaterOfSouls, getting the initial setup will be a challenge without being able to work the original firmware menus |
| 20:44:28 | TheEaterOfSouls | Would anyone mind telling me what keys I need to press to get to the firmware update option in settings? |
| 20:44:43 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yeah, I figured |
| 20:44:48 | speachy | sure, I can walk you through that. |
| 20:45:14 | Strife89 | I should take a look at the manual for the X3 (if one exists) to make sure it can walk one through that. |
| 20:45:49 | speachy | TheEaterOfSouls, you will need three things to start: |
| 20:45:50 | Strife89 | The manuals have been written so that a blind person can gather enough info to perform an install on any given player. |
| 20:46:34 | speachy | 1) the original XVortex-patched flash image (since we still can't recreate it yet..) |
| 20:46:44 | speachy | 2) the most recent daily build |
| 20:46:53 | speachy | and 3) the most recent voice file |
| 20:47:27 | speachy | once all of that is on the sd card, the rest should be automagic save for the OF button pressing. |
| 20:48:28 | TheEaterOfSouls | I generate voice files, but yeah |
| 20:48:50 | TheEaterOfSouls | Wait, what about the bootloader listed on the wiki page? Do we not use that? |
| 20:48:57 | speachy | (I've had "Write the X3 manual" on my todo list for at least a year) |
| 20:49:07 | speachy | TheEaterOfSouls, is this the original X3, or the X3ii? |
| 20:49:15 | TheEaterOfSouls | The II |
| 20:49:24 | TheEaterOfSouls | Sorry, should've been more clear |
| 20:49:56 | speachy | Ok, then you'll just need the pre-patched bootloader image linked off the wiki page |
| 20:50:12 | TheEaterOfSouls | And now I can't find my SD card |
| 20:51:40 | speachy | I am not able to walk you through the X3ii's button presses as I only have the original X3 |
| 20:52:15 | TheEaterOfSouls | Ah well |
| 20:56:04 | Strife89 | There's an app on the Google Play Store called "Be My Eyes" (without spaces, alas), which I've thought about trying out |
| 20:57:07 | Strife89 | As you may guess, the app has a blind user send their phone's camera feed to a sighted user to have them describe objects in front of them |
| 20:58:11 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yeah, I could use that. I'll probably just ask one of my roommates, though |
| 20:59:23 | Strife89 | Glad to hear that you have one |
| 20:59:39 | TheEaterOfSouls | Thanks :D |
| 21:00 |
| 21:03:23 | Strife89 | Following up on "thought about trying out": I haven't actually tried it because (1) my Internet sucks and I probably wouldn't be very helpful as a result, and (2) I don't enjoy video calls |
| 21:03:55 | TheEaterOfSouls | I don't either, honestly |
| 21:05:02 | Strife89 | Oh gosh, I can only imagine |
| 21:05:27 | Strife89 | Having to position your face, etc. for the other party's camera when you can't even see it? |
| 21:05:52 | Strife89 | I'm picturing the experience of a regular voice call on speakerphone, except worse |
| 21:05:57 | TheEaterOfSouls | Eh, it's not really that. I just don't do well talking to people |
| 21:06:19 | Strife89 | Ah |
| 21:06:51 | Strife89 | Well, that I think I understand, too, at least as someone who leans introverted |
| 21:08:24 | Strife89 | But I beg your pardon and your swift rebuttal if I make an inconsiderate remark |
| 21:10:36 | Strife89 | speachy: So, rbutil 1.4.1, right? |
| 21:10:57 | speachy | I built it out of git, but yeah, 1.4.1 should be fine |
| 21:11:05 | TheEaterOfSouls | Ha, found it |
| 21:11:38 | TheEaterOfSouls | What inconsiderate remark? I don't follow |
| 21:12:07 | Strife89 | I'm hoping that I haven't made and do not make one! I'm a worry-wart though |
| 21:12:26 | TheEaterOfSouls | Nah, it's fine |
| 21:14:45 | Strife89 | speachy: Guess what - I've run into trouble again |
| 21:14:54 | Strife89 | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/anVIFccK/ |
| 21:15:31 | speachy | stuff like that is why I just build it myself |
| 21:15:56 | speachy | I don't know what debian calls its libcrypto++ |
| 21:16:05 | Strife89 | package search for libcrypto and what I have installed https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/f78ptRa8/ |
| 21:16:10 | speachy | or what version it is (in case you do have it installed) |
| 21:16:29 | Strife89 | I do, version 6 |
| 21:16:41 | Strife89 | Er, 5.6 |
| 21:17:35 | Strife89 | Guess I'll try to compile |
| 21:17:44 | speachy | do you have libcryptopp-dev installed? |
| 21:18:19 | Strife89 | Nope, it doesn't appear to exist in Debian's repos |
| 21:18:28 | Strife89 | Closest is libcrypto++-dev |
| 21:18:37 | speachy | yeah, that |
| 21:18:54 | Strife89 | Installing that now |
| 21:19:10 | speachy | we've talked about scrapping libcrypto++ in favor of embedding a few bits of libtomcrypt. |
| 21:20:12 | Strife89 | Do you mind giving me the gist for building rbutil? My first thought was ./rockbox/tools/configure, but of course it's not there. |
| 21:20:27 | speachy | cd tools/rbutil/rbutilqt ; make |
| 21:23:03 | Strife89 | The checkout I'm working in must be borked or something. tools/rbutil doesn't exist, even after a git pull |
| 21:23:31 | TheEaterOfSouls | This X3ii has a weird key layout |
| 21:23:32 | speachy | s/tools// |
| 21:24:16 | speachy | the X3ii is less odd than the original X3. though IMO the original actually works very well for operation without seeing it. |
| 21:24:19 | Strife89 | No makefil |
| 21:24:37 | speachy | qmake |
| 21:24:50 | speachy | qmake-qt5 |
| 21:26:43 | Strife89 | I ... may need to install qt5 packages |
| 21:28:18 | Strife89 | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OFgJomMO/ |
| 21:29:25 | Strife89 | "qmake-qt5" is "installed", so I think I'm fine. I try to tab-complete "qmake" and get "qmake" and "qmake-qt4". |
| 21:29:42 | speachy | might be just plain qmake then |
| 21:29:43 | Strife89 | You wanna know what "qmake" by itself is on my system? Q. T. 3. |
| 21:29:49 | speachy | ah neverind |
| 21:29:53 | Strife89 | Check the end of that paste |
| 21:32:09 | Strife89 | Should I just - I dunno - set up an Ubuntu VM or chroot and try to build in *that*? |
| 21:32:37 | Strife89 | Or Arch, Debian testing, something similar |
| 21:33:02 | speachy | you need at least qt4 to build rbutil |
| 21:33:16 | speachy | (so qmake-qt4) |
| 21:33:52 | Strife89 | Unfortunately, it spits out errors right away. Very similar errors. |
| 21:33:55 | Strife89 | https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uyJvzsh9/ |
| 21:35:14 | Strife89 | You know, I just had an idea |
| 21:37:35 | Strife89 | Nope, didn't really help |
| 21:38:01 | Strife89 | What I tried: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/xgELFDpx/ |
| 21:38:23 | speachy | no, that's no good |
| 21:39:10 | Strife89 | Yeah, I kind of figured it was dumb to begin with |
| 21:39:15 | speachy | there's always the likes of 'apt install *qt5* |
| 21:39:50 | speachy | or apt install *qt5*dev |
| 21:40:27 | Strife89 | ... yeah, my brain isn't firing on all cylinders tonight |
| 21:40:39 | Strife89 | And that's a feat, because it doesn't have many to start with |
| 21:42:17 | Strife89 | But I note that "Qt_5.13" is in the error in my last paste, and the Debian repos appear to have Qt 5.11 ... I might be up against a brick wall without switching branches, if not distros |
| 21:44:33 | TheEaterOfSouls | Is there a tool for generating voice files that isn't rbutil? |
| 21:44:56 | speachy | you can generate stuff via the git repo |
| 21:45:03 | Strife89 | Trying to search the backports available |
| 21:46:43 | speachy | TheEaterOfSouls, I assume you're wanting to generate clips for the files you're loading, as opposed to voiced menus? |
| 21:47:34 | speachy | the x3ii doesn't exist as far as rbutil is concerned, so you won't have much luck with the latter. I think it should be okay with the former. |
| 21:49:24 | speachy | to be honest I've been procrastinating from digging into rbutil. I'd rather pour over asm listings and crash dumps than hack on C++. |
| 21:52:17 | Strife89 | Well, the ethos of Rockbox's devs has always been that the devs work on what *they* want to work on, not what the users want. :) |
| 21:52:50 | Strife89 | And I've always been just a user |
| 21:53:39 | TheEaterOfSouls | No, I was thinking voice menus |
| 21:54:08 | TheEaterOfSouls | The autogenerated ones use Festival which is not great, but I'll live |
| 21:54:28 | Strife89 | http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=17151.0 |
| 21:55:57 | | Quit cockroach (Quit: leaving) |
| 21:56:03 | Strife89 | (reply #13 is what I'm trying to point to) |
| 21:56:57 | speachy | voice operation is probably rockbox's only true killer feature. |
| 21:58:08 | Strife89 | I wouldn't say "only", especially given the current mobile device market |
| 21:58:18 | speachy | most of my work on rockbox has been to improve that, and rbutil's lack of support for the only commercially-available players we support is a considerable speedbump for blind users. |
| 21:58:28 | TheEaterOfSouls | You think? I always found all the plugins and stuff pretty cool, even though I can't use most of them |
| 21:58:37 | TheEaterOfSouls | Format support,in the past |
| 21:59:06 | speachy | in modern times, we're compared to smartphones and their app ecosystem. |
| 21:59:26 | Strife89 | And their blind-unfriendly touchscreens |
| 21:59:53 | speachy | yeah. and always-streaming music. |
| 21:59:55 | TheEaterOfSouls | I love these devices Rockbox runs on that are now kind of niche. They do exactly what they're intended for with no nonsense |
| 22:00 |
| 22:00:06 | Strife89 | Almost everything Rockbox runs on is controlled only by buttons |
| 22:00:09 | speachy | TheEaterOfSouls, exactly. |
| 22:00:54 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yeah, not a fan of streaming services and DRM. Give me what I paid for, please |
| 22:01:04 | speachy | but it's a small niche that's getting harder to play in. |
| 22:01:06 | TheEaterOfSouls | Actually, touchscreens can and do work for the blind |
| 22:01:48 | TheEaterOfSouls | But I much prefer a player running Rockbox to listening to music on my phone. The UI is just more practical, and the battery life is much longer |
| 22:02:12 | speachy | DAPs only really sell at the ultra-low-end that will never run rockbox, and those catering to "audiophiles" who buy oxygen-free audio cables. |
| 22:02:24 | Strife89 | Yeah, I miss the days where most electronics were single-purpose |
| 22:02:41 | Strife89 | (Not enough to go BACK to those days entirely, but I still miss them) |
| 22:02:54 | TheEaterOfSouls | I also don't want to waste my phone/laptop battery when I have a device that can play music easily three times as long |
| 22:02:55 | speachy | and even then mostly for the Chinese domestic market. |
| 22:03:54 | speachy | so we get scraps with zero documentation available, and (usually) no source code for the GPL'd bits, so at best all we can really accmplish is running as a Linux application on a sorta-good-enough platform. |
| 22:04:07 | TheEaterOfSouls | Same. It's not a fashionable view, but I'm really tired of devices just trying to do and be everything now |
| 22:04:44 | speachy | the hardware is more complex than ever and the product lifecycles are so short that by the time we can get things working well (if at all) stuff is already discontinued. |
| 22:05:16 | Strife89 | Ooof, that last point is a big one. |
| 22:05:18 | speachy | as that forum thread Strife89 put it, the skills needed to do this stuff are pretty specialized. |
| 22:06:10 | speachy | and (for example) the only reason I've had so much time to put into Rockbox lately is because $dayjob build/test cycles are multi-hour affairs. |
| 22:06:25 | speachy | reverse engineering on a (very) part time basis is a pretty slow process |
| 22:06:57 | TheEaterOfSouls | I love what you guys do, though, even if it is just a hosted application now |
| 22:07:39 | speachy | I've been trying to get rid of the roadblocks to new contributors −− be it the infrastructure, build system, and whatnot, and also trying to re-encourage old contributors that gave up while their patches bitrotted |
| 22:08:46 | | Quit rogeliodh (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) |
| 22:09:01 | speachy | all of this to try to build up some momentum again.. support on some modern players brings new users in, fixing up warts with multilingual voices (ie most of the past week) greatly expands the userbase for whom rockbox will JustWork(tm). |
| 22:10:28 | Strife89 | I wish you luck, speachy. |
| 22:10:45 | speachy | because damnit, I don't want to see rockbox bitrot away into irrelevance. |
| 22:11:03 | Strife89 | That scares me, too |
| 22:11:06 | speachy | when everything else sucks so badly |
| 22:11:13 | TheEaterOfSouls | Seriously, thanks. It's good to know there are people who still believe in it |
| 22:12:09 | | Join rogeliodh [0] (~rogeliodh@51.158.126.244) |
| 22:12:22 | speachy | If I didn't step up and contribute my expertise (which lines up pretty well with the skills needed) then how could I ask (or expect) anyone else to do so? |
| 22:12:41 | speachy | and I say that as someone who's been using rockbox since the original Archos player way back when. |
| 22:12:55 | speachy | only took me 1.5 decades to meaningfully contribute back. :D |
| 22:13:21 | TheEaterOfSouls | I intend to contribute as well, if I ever get skilled in that area |
| 22:15:56 | TheEaterOfSouls | Is there a potential for rockbox to run natively on players like the X3, do you think? |
| 22:16:08 | TheEaterOfSouls | Eventually, that is |
| 22:18:43 | speachy | I think so; the datasheets for the major components are available I think. |
| 22:19:15 | speachy | the hardware in the X3ii is pretty kick-ass and we'd get a lot more usable RAM out of a native port |
| 22:28:33 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
| 22:29:27 | Strife89 | If I ever get out of this funk, I want to help work on the manual again |
| 22:29:50 | speachy | on the other hand, simply being able to really customize the linux load (especially the kernel) would probably be much more beneficial. |
| 22:30:00 | speachy | from a reward-for-effort perspective. |
| 22:30:15 | Strife89 | I have zero coding skills, but I managed to pick up LaTeX well enough the one time I made a contribution |
| 22:30:24 | speachy | the AGPTek Rocker has some really annoying quirks that could be trivially fixed if we could rebuild the kernel. |
| 22:32:15 | speachy | with that source we would also have much better insight into how the hardware is actually put togher; greatly reducing the amount of reverse-engineering needed to do a native port to the X1000E |
| 22:34:50 | speachy | and (to take this conversation back full circle) the reason HW makers don't want to try and ship rockbox is that we're missing the various fancy UI bells-n-whistles and DRM and integration into external music services and the myriad other things supposedly needed to appeal to the modern (mostly Chinese) market. |
| 22:35:19 | speachy | but that's fine, we'll outlast them all. :) |
| 22:35:54 | speachy | as long as we manage to keep developer interest going. |
| 22:37:29 | * | speachy gets off his soapbox and returns to his normal introverted self. |
| 22:39:25 | Strife89 | Whoever managed to convince the world that all modern tech had to be Pretty™ ought to be slapped |
| 22:40:25 | Strife89 | It's incredibly subjective anyway |
| 22:40:25 | speachy | I disagree, "pretty" has always outsold not-pretty, all else being equal. |
| 22:40:58 | speachy | the ultimate goal of "tech" is to become invisible. |
| 22:41:18 | speachy | but advertising requires "engagment" which is at odds with being invisible. |
| 22:43:38 | Strife89 | Yeah, good points |
| 22:46:01 | speachy | I fear that by the time modern DAP makers realize the folly of mostly-touch interfaces, the market will probably be gone completely. |
| 22:46:11 | speachy | (re-realize?) |
| 22:47:11 | Strife89 | Suppose that they already have, but that they also believe that trying to go back is foolhardy |
| 22:47:24 | speachy | because it's no longer as pretty and thus won't sell as well |
| 22:47:35 | Strife89 | Yep. |
| 22:47:37 | mendel_munkis | I would suggest suing agptek for the source if not for the fact that they did send pamaury a player to work on. |
| 22:48:02 | Strife89 | On the other hand, the nostalgia market makes beau coup riches |
| 22:48:04 | speachy | except in the o2-depleted-cables high-end DAP+DAC+amp+whatever fanboy equipment that's usually immune to reason |
| 22:48:37 | Strife89 | So if Apple ever decides to make an "iPod Classic Edition", well ... the devices - and the money- practically make themselves |
| 22:48:58 | speachy | I'm amazed they kept the "classic" ipods going as long as they did. |
| 22:49:28 | Strife89 | I'm amazed that iTunes still supports them |
| 22:50:08 | speachy | somehow, their replacement for itunes is even more of a dumpster fire in spite of only having a fraciton of the functionality |
| 22:50:11 | Strife89 | The nature of tech these days seems to be to not support anything greater than five years old. (Windows' general software compatibility being the exception.) |
| 22:51:15 | Strife89 | See: millions of Android devices. |
| 22:51:22 | speachy | the ipod was never intended to operate untethered. it needed itunes to do anything. |
| 22:52:06 | Strife89 | I know, but even the newest non-Touch iPods are over ten years old. |
| 22:52:35 | Strife89 | And it surely costs Apple money to keep that support in |
| 22:53:41 | speachy | OldApple understood the value of the long tail. |
| 22:54:36 | speachy | NewApple is a phone company that happens to make a few other things. |
| 22:54:57 | speachy | (IMO the only reason anyone cares about Macs any more is because they're required in order to develop for the iOS ecosystem) |
| 22:55:58 | speachy | they've turned into a cargo cult around Jobs' ideas without actually _understainding_ why they mattered |
| 22:57:03 | speachy | in the end the iPods will probably be the last holdout of Rockbox, if only because so darn many were made so there's still a huge secondhand inventory with plenty of replacement parts. |
| 22:57:16 | speachy | but I'm getting all soapbox-y again. |
| 22:58:51 | mendel_munkis | speachy: remind to see if it's possible to mod one of my old fuze+ to use a non touchpad directional setup. |
| 23:00 |
| 23:04:23 | speachy | will try |
| 23:07:12 | Strife89 | $ at 09:00 \ > echo "Remind mendel" \ ^D |
| 23:07:30 | Strife89 | ;) |
| 23:08:59 | speachy | and my vivado synth run errored out at the last step 10.5 hours after it started. |
| 23:09:32 | Strife89 | Ouch. |
| 23:10:40 | speachy | failed timing anyway. but the errors that went boom should have come up much earlier. |
| 23:11:41 | speachy | the joys of living on the bleeding edge. |
| 23:12:43 | TheEaterOfSouls | I have two Clip Zips and Plus(es?) that I grabbed in 2015 |
| 23:12:56 | TheEaterOfSouls | Very expensive, but worth it |
| 23:13:09 | TheEaterOfSouls | I will continue using Rockbox until they're all dead, including my Clip v1 |
| 23:14:10 | TheEaterOfSouls | Or buy more, if I can find them |
| 23:15:29 | TheEaterOfSouls | speachy: why do you think touch interfaces are foolish? |
| 23:15:38 | speachy | the Clips are pretty robust devices. the weakest point is the headphone jack but that's easily repaired. |
| 23:16:11 | speachy | they're not inherently foolish, but instead require a very different approach to user interaction and thus interface design. |
| 23:16:40 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yeah, I have a third Zip that went through the wash twice, I think (I was a teenager, bare with me) the battery swelled so I pried open the case and removed it, and then I couldn't get it back together |
| 23:16:47 | TheEaterOfSouls | So it's just the top board |
| 23:16:53 | TheEaterOfSouls | Still works |
| 23:16:55 | speachy | touch-only interfaces are nearly always unusable without being able to see what you're doing. |
| 23:17:22 | speachy | I should look into getting a spare battery or two for mine. |
| 23:17:53 | TheEaterOfSouls | You can use them audibly |
| 23:18:33 | TheEaterOfSouls | But IMO the screen readers on phones make things like simple music playback/selection of options less efficient than buttons |
| 23:18:43 | * | speachy nods. |
| 23:19:15 | TheEaterOfSouls | Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they exist. I just prefer a DAP for listening to music/books/whatever |
| 23:20:13 | speachy | dedicated controls that allow you to self-locate |
| 23:20:46 | TheEaterOfSouls | If I'm running and want to switch tracks, I don't want to mess with the touch interface |
| 23:21:31 | TheEaterOfSouls | Do you see it getting better, realistically? |
| 23:22:01 | TheEaterOfSouls | I kind of feel like the trends of DRM and connectivity and bloat will continue |
| 23:22:30 | Strife89 | I'd suggest the real problem with touch interfaces is that most designers simply don't consider the experience for anyone with less knowledge or fewer senses |
| 23:23:00 | Strife89 | I feel the same way, TheEaterOfSouls |
| 23:23:17 | TheEaterOfSouls | I kind of disagree on the first point. User interfaces are trying to appeal to people with absolutely no skill |
| 23:23:37 | TheEaterOfSouls | It seems to be the thing to do, if you want it to sell, and ruins it for the rest of us |
| 23:23:51 | Strife89 | Music publishers got pressured into selling DRM-free music, so when streaming started to look viable they practically salivated over it |
| 23:24:01 | TheEaterOfSouls | As for the second, that's an issue everywhere. People generally don't think/care about people with disabilities |
| 23:24:09 | speachy | yeah. they make more money from streaming than they do "Selling" stuff now. |
| 23:24:32 | Strife89 | I've seen that sentiment on Twitter a lot, lately ("people don't care about disabilities", I mean) |
| 23:24:46 | Strife89 | Oh God I made a terrible typo |
| 23:24:55 | Strife89 | But you know what I meant, I hope |
| 23:25:13 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yeah |
| 23:25:19 | speachy | if you look at one of the modern DAPs, how much effort was put into the actual music functionality vs the "apps" they threw on there? |
| 23:25:26 | TheEaterOfSouls | Bandcamp still sells DRM-free music, and I love them for that |
| 23:25:30 | TheEaterOfSouls | And Downpour for books |
| 23:25:38 | TheEaterOfSouls | Both have awful websites, but I use them |
| 23:25:40 | Strife89 | Bandcamp forever! |
| 23:25:48 | TheEaterOfSouls | Yes :D |
| 23:25:51 | Strife89 | And GOG |
| 23:26:04 | TheEaterOfSouls | itch.io, too |
| 23:26:11 | Strife89 | Ah, yes |
| 23:28:48 | speachy | DAPs are a niche. The makers need to understand the reasons one would buy one as opposed to using a smartphone. |
| 23:29:13 | speachy | once you make the DAP into a crappy, less-useful smartphone, why not just stick with the smartphone you already own? |
| 23:29:57 | speachy | don't get me wrong, Rockbox has needed a touch-ish interface since the fuze+ |
| 23:30:50 | speachy | ie gesture input, etc etc. |
| 23:31:46 | speachy | rockbox is also unusual in that it doesn't tie into some sort of storefront or external music library manager. |
| 23:31:46 | | Join __Bilgus_ [0] (41ba23be@65.186.35.190) |
| 23:32:46 | __Bilgus_ | speachy apparently yahoo EOL'd their oauth framework any idea how I can switch the provider without being able to login? |
| 23:33:06 | TheEaterOfSouls | One of the great things about it |
| 23:33:18 | __Bilgus_ | https://developer.yahoo.com/oauth2/guide/OpenID2/ |
| 23:34:00 | speachy | __Bilgus_, create a new account with the provider you need and I can manually associate the credentials with your old account. |
| 23:34:37 | speachy | if possible, use the same email address in gerrit. |
| 23:34:49 | speachy | it'll make it easier for me to find things via the sql console. |
| 23:38:04 | __Bilgus_ | ok |
| 23:39:28 | speachy | I wonder how many users are affected by this. |
| 23:42:06 | __Bilgus_ | speachy does it have to be the same email? I'd rather change that from yahoo as well |
| 23:42:29 | speachy | I guess not. when you're registerd, just tell me what to look for |
| 23:42:57 | | Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 23:43:16 | | Join TheSeven [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) |
| 23:45:00 | speachy | 15 yahoo emails registered... |
| 23:48:03 | speachy | 50 folks registered with yahoo openid credentials. |
| 23:54:35 | | Quit rogeliodh (Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)) |
| 23:54:48 | speachy | so I guess I can expect to have to do this several more times, unless a newer version of gerrit fixed it. |
| 23:54:48 | | Join rogeliodh2 [0] (~rogeliodh@51.158.126.244) |
| 23:54:49 | | Nick rogeliodh2 is now known as rogeliodh (~rogeliodh@51.158.126.244) |
| 23:57:59 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 4591510, 295 builds, 11 clients. |
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