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#rockbox log for 2020-09-18

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02:00
02:10:33braewoodsspeachy: I've spend 10+ years developing experience with C in userspace applications, generally Linux. How useful is that to a project like Rockbox since it's more of a kernel than a regular application? I believe it involves what the C standard calls a freestanding implementation instead of the usual hosted ones I'm used to.
02:14:16_bilgus_essentially rb is its own OS ^ yes but its not too bad actually quite nice coop multitasking though plugins are slightly limited by the API but its pretty expansive
02:17:41braewoodsmy main interest is in adding MTP support to some degree. I don't like having to always use UMS for trivial data transfers.
02:18:08braewoodsi mean many of these devices originally supported MTP in their OF
02:18:14_bilgus_IOW I doubt you'd have a terrible time getting into the codebase
02:18:18braewoodsso it should be possible
02:18:58_bilgus_oh sure but it just needs someone who *WANTS* to
02:19:52braewoodsMTP support would pretty much mean RB could fully replace most OF functionality on what I use at least.
02:20:11_bilgus_the only thing to be concerned with would be to make sure you don't add it to the bootloaders
02:20:30braewoodswhy would I want to? i understand UMS is vital to servicing RB at times.
02:21:00_bilgus_UM NO too many bootloaders are too close to their max
02:21:08braewoodsOh.
02:21:10braewoodsI see.
02:21:19braewoodsi just don't see any value in MTP in the bootloaders anyway
02:21:30_bilgus_you'll be at it for weeks trying to add something big like that or have to be extremely selective
02:21:54braewoodsI thought of it as an optional addon for every day usage once fully booted.
02:22:03_bilgus_not saying all bootloaders are maxed or all have a size limit
02:22:14_bilgus_but esp the SANSAs
02:22:20braewoodsi wasn't even thinking of modifying the bootloaders
02:22:41_bilgus_you just have to ndef BOOTLOADER
02:22:45braewoodsjust trying to make it possible to switch what transfer mode rockbox uses when connected to PC.
02:23:19braewoodsmain advantage is you can disconnect at any time
02:23:21_bilgus_be pretty easy to pop a menu in like 10 loc so no worries there
02:23:22braewoodsafaik
02:23:39braewoodsthe default would still be UMS to retain backwards compatibility
02:24:11_bilgus_in that case even easier just need to add a setting in 3 files
02:24:34_bilgus_settings_list settings.c settings.h
02:24:39braewoodsalso because UMS may be necessary to perform upgrades to rockbox and such
02:24:49braewoodsbut I would probably want to make MTP filter out system files if at all possible.
02:25:04braewoodsOr just trust people aren't dumb enough to delete their vital files. lol
02:25:08_bilgus_.rockbox
02:26:08braewoods_bilgus_: i found something interesting when rebuilding the firmware for a CF upgrade.. some devices use a partition table and some don't.
02:26:24braewoodsthis one expected the whole device to be formated fat32 which i don't know to be possible under windows
02:26:29braewoodsso i used linux to set it up
02:27:08braewoodsstill shows up correctly in windows but i don't know how would i format a volume in windows where there's no partition table allowed.
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02:29:16braewoodsi'll finish rebuilding this mp3 player before I try building rockbox and such.
02:29:21braewoodsi need a development device anyway
02:29:44_bilgus_in windows you need a 3rd party formatter
02:29:50braewoodsah. i figured.
02:29:57braewoodsi used Linux since I didn't know of any.
02:30:10_bilgus_I listed some on the forum but I honestly don't remember which worked
02:30:17braewoodsit was a philips gogear hdd1630
02:30:24braewoodsthat i upgrade to a better CF card
02:30:41_bilgus_rb wanst fat32 too we don't have a exfat driver
02:30:50_bilgus_Wants*
02:30:53braewoodsi know. most of the devices won't take exfat anyway.
02:31:07braewoodsit may be easier to just use a combination of windows and linux
02:31:10braewoodsto get setup
02:31:26_bilgus_Ditch windows its all easier in linux
02:31:37braewoodsthere's one thing i can't do under linux though
02:31:44braewoodsreinstalling the original firmware so the drive is bootable
02:31:46_bilgus_run in a vm seethe dev guide
02:32:00_bilgus_ah uses a windows binary
02:32:12braewoodsno problem. i just use an old PC.
02:32:15_bilgus_gonna have to go to xp too?
02:32:28braewoodsyea. i reinstalled windows xp on an ancient thing from 2010.
02:32:30_bilgus_heh yeah been there
02:32:44braewoodsat least the firmware is still available
02:32:48braewoodsthat's more than most can say
02:33:04_bilgus_I had something that needed win98 that was a shocking difference from what I remembered
02:33:08braewoodsi had to resort to finding WP 10 from winetricks since microsfot doesn't provide it anymore
02:33:13braewoodsWMP*
02:33:20braewoodsthe upgrade stuff was tied to WMP 10
02:33:24braewoodsit wouldn't work without it
02:33:28braewoodsmain reason i had to use windows xp
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02:33:57braewoodsinteresting the iriver firmware updaters work with modern windows despite their age
02:34:03braewoodsthey don't depend on any ancient windows stuff
02:34:06braewoodsevidently
02:34:23braewoodsi was able to do it from windows 7
02:34:32braewoodssomeone else did with 8
02:34:51braewoods_bilgus_: but yea... firmware is about the only reason i still have windows installations.
02:35:06braewoodsi use it do the upgrade and then it goes back into storage.
02:39:33braewoods_bilgus_: fyi, i also found a source for third party chargers for these older mp3 players that use proprietary connectors.
02:39:52braewoodse.g., https://www.gomadic.com/iriver-h10-5gb-straight-power-hot-sync-charge-charger-usb-cable.html
02:40:15braewoodsor more accurately
02:40:21braewoodscables
02:40:45braewoodsthat was good find since a lot of the ebay listings don't have the cables anymore
02:41:20braewoodsthey were literally the only source i could find for some of the rockbox targets
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02:59:24_bilgus_makes me wonde if they are still making them or just selling whats left
03:00
03:03:05braewoods_bilgus_: no idea.
03:03:14braewoodsbut i bought some recently. they're still selling.
03:03:39braewoodsthey're a modular design. the cable and adapter tip are separate.
03:03:53_bilgus_ah makes sense
03:04:34braewoodsi suspect the adapter is probably connecting the AC adapter and usb together so it can piggy back off USB even if the original had split power.
03:05:15braewoodsso it's actually an upgrade.
03:05:22braewoodstwo cables in one so to speak
03:05:34braewoodsit was an odd time
03:05:44braewoodsproprietary connectors on a lot of things before they went fully usb
03:06:32braewoodsif i was designing an mp3 player in this age i'd use a 3 ring 3.5mm jack. those ones that combine the microphone and headphone.
03:06:47braewoodsbut these are still the older style of 2 ring for stereo audio.
03:40:43braewoodsserious question.
03:40:53braewoodswhat is the f-flex connector type mentioned here?
03:40:54braewoodshttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/HardDriveReplacement
03:41:13braewoodsi can find no reference to what it was or is anywhere.
03:42:35_bilgus_https://www.ebay.com/p/1701429609?iid=333576813125
03:43:08_bilgus_its a segate? assuming proprietary
03:44:05braewoodsoh. fun.
03:44:55braewoodsso avoid those mp3 players like the plague.
03:45:09braewoodsthere's no common adapter for making them work with modern CF.
03:46:32_bilgus_https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seagate_ST1
03:46:50_bilgus_its probably pretty straight forward still ata
03:47:01braewoodsbut you'd need an adapter.
03:47:07braewoodsi can't see myself building one.
03:47:54_bilgus_I bet someone in shenzen has one
03:49:07braewoodsi wonder...
03:49:25braewoodssome of the ones using microdrives include their own adapter ribbon cable
03:49:30braewoodsi wonder if it's the same thing.
03:53:24_bilgus_https://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/external/photo/100375652a.pdf
03:53:26braewoodsIs this a joke?
03:53:29braewoodshttps://www.ebay.com/itm/A-RELIC-OF-TECH-The-Apple-iPod-Classic-20GB-Apples-First-iPod/182909336044
03:54:08braewoodsah. flex connector. 45 pins.
03:54:10_bilgus_sec 2.5
03:54:41_bilgus_& sec 4.0
03:55:26_bilgus_so totally different but the same lol
03:55:58_bilgus_enjoy yourself i'm out.
03:56:02braewoodsok.
04:00
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07:06:09speachy_bilgus_: I think I have it working. sysbench churning on it now
07:11:43speachyaaand no good.
07:24:47speachyokay, maybe.
07:25:05speachyg#2750. beware it might eat your cat.
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10:26:14speachysurvived sysbench! With this card, using DMA boosed sequential writes by 34% and reads by 43%.
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10:39:36speachyI might be able to eke out a few more % on the write side, but it might require completely splitting dma and non-dma code paths.
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11:53:49_bilgus_I feel like unless you really feel like messing with it that those are some pretty damn big gains
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12:16:18_bilgus_Seq Wr ^58% Rnd R/W v14% / v13% Seq Rd ^68% over the baseline, Impressive
12:17:35_bilgus_SR 7.59 SW 5.46
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15:01:52speachy_bilgus_: so any reason you can think of for me to not commit it? I know there are some corner cases that will break as soon as we try BULK-anything-other-than-mass-storage
15:02:02speachybut that's probably true about most of the other USB drivers
15:03:46speachythe write optimization would be to stage the DMA op prior to the endpoint being posted. It would save us the interrupt overhead of getting started. won't help much on larger transfers but it will definitely help small ones.
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15:34:49_bilgus_personally I'd rather fix this than try to do anything with tthe old code
15:35:50speachy"this" ?
15:35:54_bilgus_not to mention the hold switch makes it pretty easy to verify if its a dma issue
15:36:05_bilgus_what you have thus far
15:36:22speachyyeah
15:36:58speachyUntil we have a non-mass-storage user of the bulk endpoints there's probably nothing further to do.
15:44:05speachybut fwiw the old code worked fine and was quite reliable; it was just slow.
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16:01:58_bilgus_braewood ^ up above might be an mtp endpoint for instance
16:10:10speachyaye
16:10:16braewoodsback
16:10:18braewoods?
16:10:25braewoodsthough you failed to highlight me lol
16:10:27speachyand perhaps one day isoc transfers for audio
16:10:47speachythat's going to be a pretty hairy bit of usb driver hackery
16:11:20braewoodsah.
16:11:46braewoodsright. i would like to see if i could optimize MTP for file transfer speeds.
16:12:00braewoodsmaybe possible if we have larger buffers
16:12:19braewoodsbut initially i would focus on getting it to work
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16:12:42braewoodsmy idea is that not much else would be happening while MTP is operating so it might be possible to allocate more IO buffers to it
16:13:11braewoodsno idea.
16:13:41braewoodsi don't usually need to think about my IO buffer sizes due to how much caching the kernel does for me
16:13:59braewoodsthen again Linux usually has MUCH more ram than rockbox has to work with
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16:14:43braewoodsi would probably want something like 128K or so since flash memory usually writes faster if you align at a larger block size
16:15:19braewoodsat least when i was doing dd with usb flash drives
16:15:31braewoodswas surprising how much the block size could impact performance
16:15:45braewoodsanywho
16:18:35speachyI wouldn't expect mtp to be terribly fast.
16:18:44speachyvs mass storage
16:19:03braewoodsI see... i've gotten decent speeds with my smartphone
16:19:10braewoodsso i thought it at least had potential
16:19:46braewoodsanyway i won't know until i try
16:19:56braewoodsmy first priority is just getting it to work
16:20:05speachyyour smartphone probably has a couple times more buffers for mtp usage than any single rockbox target. :)
16:20:13braewoodslol
16:20:17braewoods2G of RAM
16:20:45speachymtp's advantage is non-exclusive access to storage rather than performance.
16:20:51braewoods32MB is a fair bit and rockbox has no network stack really so
16:21:06braewoodsi'll see what i can do.
16:21:37braewoodsin userspace i mostly had to care about having buffers large enough for aligned writes
16:21:46braewoodssince it seems to matter somewhat
16:22:04braewoodsi don't know much about the IO Buffers in the kernel
16:22:07braewoodsto be honest
16:22:18braewoodsi guess for RB they're basically the same since everything is kernel mode
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22:25:41_bilgus_speachy how many times does the while loop repeat in EPOUT_handler?
22:25:57speachyuntil there's no more data to be had.
22:26:09_bilgus_like every 32 bytes every 1k?
22:26:13speachywith DMA, it shouldn't fire more than once.
22:26:24speachyper transfer I mean
22:26:44_bilgus_ah ok
22:27:08speachyfor large transfers, even in the worst case it would be once per 512 bytes
22:27:43speachyunless the host is deliberately sending over data in tiny chunks....
22:27:54_bilgus_eh that might be a bit often then like we should move some of those check out of the hot path
22:29:52speachywith DMA going, we shouldn't go throught that loop more than twice for any given logical transfer.
22:30:04_bilgus_yeah then nbd
22:30:05speachy(once to start the transfer, once when it's done)
22:32:15_bilgus_I think it was you that brough up wanting to speak InvalidVoice on FS yes?
22:32:22speachythere's definitely still room for improvement in that code
22:32:31_bilgus_ie the talk splash on invalid voice
22:32:33speachyyeah, I thought it might be a good idea to voice it.
22:33:16speachybut probably a real PITA to implement given how the voice/lang code is structured
22:33:32_bilgus_I made a talk file in hopes of tricking the voice engine into playing it but sound isn't initialized yet so I may have to move the 'notice' to a bit later
22:36:23_bilgus_not to mention I still need to add a kill thread for the voice system so I can shut it down after
22:37:05speachyit mighjt be simpler to just make it beeep SOS or something instead.
22:37:45_bilgus_I debated that tbh
22:38:37_bilgus_I guess we could make it one of the 'sys_sounds'
22:40:28speachyI got the abandoned mtp code extracted into a single patch. granted it's against a 9-yr-old tree but I had to start somewhere
22:40:49speachyI'll probably just attach that patch to the old bug ticket as a better starting point.
22:42:15speachyand go back to the double-buffered PCM code. The core changes were actually pretty minor; what I'm procrastinating on is rewriting the audio dma code to use descriptor-based DMA instead of the simple oneshot it's using now.
22:43:02_bilgus_I was wondering if you learned anything applicable to the other DMAs around the codebase
22:43:29speachynope; the USB block has its own DMA engine, courtesy of Mentor
22:43:47speachy(for which I am grateful..)
22:43:49_bilgus_ah just some weird a s
22:44:01_bilgus_crazy
22:45:04speachythe audio dma engine is the same one used by all of ingenic's homegrown stuff −− eg the mass storage controller.
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22:48:26***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22:49:11speachythe voice failsafe is fs#13216 btw
22:49:13fs-bluebothttp://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/13216 Add a failsafe voice prompt for "voice file failed to load" (feature requests, new)
22:50:08speachyactually the USB DMA engine is refreshingly simple and bug-free. The USB controller itself is where the headaches come from.
22:53:08speachyand I also want to add code that detects and complains about exfat partitions.
22:59:59_bilgus_that one seems simple on the surface
23:00
23:01:10speachyyeah, I know what to look for but there's no real way to report it out of the filesystem probe/mount code. so we'd have to set a flag and splash it later or something.
23:01:41speachythe detection heuristics are simpler for exfat than fat12/16/32
23:02:53speachy(what I actually want is native exfat. but that's a much more involved undertaking.
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