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#rockbox log for 2020-09-23

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10:00:22genevinobraewoods: i'm pretty sure rocker is going to be it
10:00:44genevinobraewoods: i have to admit that i did not click the order button yet, though
10:02:39genevinobut still, i guess for the money you can't go much wrong with the rocker
10:04:03 Quit koniu (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
10:06:22braewoodsgenevino: ah. i've rebuilt older models and upgraded their internal storage.
10:06:31braewoodsat least where that's possible.
10:06:43braewoodsmostly possible with really old mp3 players that used small hard drives
10:11:44 Join koniu [0] (~koniu@gateway/tor-sasl/koniu)
10:12:48braewoodsthough not sure how practical it is to do that with ipods... they need itunes to work properly and Apple has started dropping support for older stuff.
10:12:49speachyyeah, but that raises the entry price and aggrivation factor to get started.
10:13:02genevinobraewoods: well i fear having to use a device that has no rbutil integration (yet)
10:13:12braewoodsgenevino: i see.
10:13:21genevinobraewoods: but maybe that will just be simple :)
10:13:29braewoodsi'm currently repairing an old philips gogear
10:13:48braewoodsthe previous one, same model series, was worn but works fine afaik
10:13:56braewoodsupgraded to CF storage
10:14:00genevinooh nice
10:14:32braewoodsbut it required windows xp to get it working since the firmware updater required a specific environment
10:14:40braewoodsbut it's still doable
10:14:52braewoodsmostly just need an old pc that can still run windows xp
10:15:32braewoodsyou need the right tools for this one though so not the best coice if you're new
10:15:41braewoodsan allen wrench, among others
10:15:52braewoodsto disassemble it
10:16:11braewoodsbut you can still buy replacement batteries
10:16:45braewoodsthere's also iriver stuff like the H10. H10 though i'd only suggest the...
10:17:03braewoodsfat model. it's next to impossible to find replacement drives for the skinny ones.
10:17:07braewoodswhich is the 20GB one.
10:17:19braewoodsit uses 1.8" 40 pin zif
10:17:36braewoodsyou can either replace it with a 40 pin zif ssd or use an adapter to install a CF card
10:17:58braewoodsthe gogear i have doesn't need one since it already uses CF card, just the HDD varian
10:18:25braewoodsi think though CF cards only go to 256GB
10:18:45braewoodsbut again not all firmwares support stuff that high
10:18:51braewoodsthey usually support at 32G though
10:18:55braewoodsat least
10:19:15braewoodsand don't expect IO rates to be super high. though my gogear is much faster than the iriver h10
10:19:28braewoodswrites are nearly double in the gogear using a fast CF card
10:19:51braewoodsaround 12-13 mb/s vs the iriver's ~5 MB/s
10:20:00braewoodseven with a much faster card
10:20:15braewoodsso the bottleneck is likely the hardware not the card
10:21:25braewoodsgenevino: one other problem with these older models is they used proprietary connectors so you need a new source if they don't have the original charger. there is one available though.
10:21:41braewoodsgenevino: gomadic sells 'em.
10:22:18genevinobraewoods: i'm confused
10:22:29genevinobraewoods: mp3 players
10:22:53braewoodsthere's lots of models.
10:23:14braewoodsi picked the gogear to try out a microdrive model
10:23:21braewoodsit's smaller and doesn't need an adapter.
10:23:24genevinobraewoods: well i just want like, the best one to run rockbox on currently.
10:23:24braewoodsbut trickier to open.
10:23:38genevinobraewoods: preferably well supported, too.
10:23:48braewoodsthat's mainly old stuff
10:24:08genevinoso are you saying i should just get used to building my own fw?
10:24:37braewoodsnot really as the stuff in GIT isn't really considered stable
10:24:50braewoodsit takes a good while for something to get labeled that
10:24:55braewoodsit's mostly older ports like the PP stuff
10:25:19braewoodsbut the problem with the older ones is they don't usually come upgraded for modern usage
10:25:36braewoodsso you usually have to be willing to do a bit of modding
10:25:58braewoodsplus their batteries may be severely depleted
10:26:10braewoodsdepending on how much usage they saw
10:26:30braewoodsbut i do find old junkers i can make usable with rockbox on ebay
10:27:09braewoodsi've found 2 gogears for $20 on ebay in total that were "for parts or repair"
10:27:16braewoodsfirst one just was dead from not being charged.
10:27:23braewoodsupgraded storage to 32GB and new battery.
10:27:31braewoodstotal cost, not counting charger... around $50
10:27:34genevinoheh :)
10:28:04braewoodsyou can try larger CF cards or even use a CF to SD card adapter
10:28:29braewoodsi just chose 32GB since that's the usual barrier in embedded FAT
10:28:39speachyyou have to be careful with those "parts or repair" units, sometimes they are genuinely dead.
10:28:54braewoodssometimes it's just a lack of charger
10:29:56braewoodsgenevino: US based? I could sell you one of my finished upgrades perhaps? Though obviously it would be a bit more expensive.
10:30:27braewoodsAnd the unit has wear from being used.
10:30:30genevinobraewoods: unfortunately i'm in DE
10:30:34braewoodsAh. Ok.
10:30:41braewoodsphilips was mainly US anyway
10:30:51genevinobraewoods: stuff like this sometimes pops up on the local ebay thing
10:31:25braewoodsgenevino: camerino sino seems to make a lot of random batteries for small electronics like these
10:31:37braewoodscameron sino*
10:31:56braewoodsit's usually the brand I end up with when buying replacements
10:31:59braewoodsfor specific models
10:32:14braewoodssometimes they have more mAH than the original
10:32:33t0matogenevino: that ebay listing seems quite expensive, I built a similar-ish setup with a 256GB SD in an iflash adapter in a 5.5th gen video for ~80€, probably less
10:32:34braewoodsbut the biggest improvement in battery life is switching to flash storage CF
10:33:24braewoodsgenevino: yea, ok. work with what you got in your local market.
10:33:26genevinot0mato: any way to get a ready to use device in DE?
10:34:21braewoodsgenevino: a german person I know said they had iaudio devices for their rockbox.
10:34:29braewoodslet me see which ones were there.
10:35:26t0matogenevino: not that I'm aware of, but sourcing a usable ipod from kleinanzeigen, the iflash from ebay, and the sd from amazon wasn't hard, and neither was assembly, even as someone not *that* used to hardware modding
10:35:26genevinonice, but not exactly cheap :)
10:35:45genevinot0mato: ok nice
10:35:50braewoodscheck out the iaudio stuff... maybe others are in your area
10:36:17braewoodsgenevino: CF cards are a good upgrade for these older players because they're basically flash based IDE devices
10:36:33braewoodswhich a lot of older electronics use internally
10:37:16braewoodsfor reference if you decide to get creative
10:37:28braewoodsit's very old but a lot of the information is still valid
10:37:50braewoodsthe "no adapter" ones are models that use CF microdrives
10:38:01braewoodsvery small list
10:38:07braewoodsthis gogear is one of the few
10:39:12braewoodsbut yea... ebay to find old working units (or ones you can fix) is a good place to start
10:39:25braewoodsthen you can replace storage and batteries to refresh it
10:40:11braewoodsgomadic could be useful if you need to buy a charger but you'd have to import that
10:40:29braewoodsit's only $18 US so i can't see import duties being too high.
10:40:59t0matoanything below <22€ is free to import in Germany least until 2021
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14:10:30genevinoso what about the "xduoo x3ii"? device list says it's well supported, is that a good go?
14:12:10speachyas I said earlier, it's not seen much polishing, but it basically works. it will only improve from here.
14:13:46genevinobtw agptek rocker is listed as even supported fully by rbutil
14:13:58genevinoso that's probably the safest bet
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14:25:43genevinoand there's a sandisk sansa fuze available on amazon but only in pink and 4gb :)
14:34:17_bilgus__get that
14:34:51_bilgus__V2 has sd slot IIRC the V1 does not
14:35:16speachyno, v1 and v2 both had a sd slot
14:35:40_bilgus__BEAUTIFUL screen the rotary encoder button AWESOME decent battery life GREAT sound quality
14:35:57speachythe fuzes are nice, but they are not terribly robust physically
14:36:18_bilgus__just picked one up for $40 locally several days ago a bit dissapointed I didnt get one earlier
14:37:02_bilgus__the wires inside are ratehr hard to keep intact but I haven't heard much about them being fragile
14:37:30_bilgus__but seen plenty of people mess up the rotary encoder doing battery swaps
14:37:32speachymaybe it's life inside a car in florida. :)
14:37:46speachybattery swells, case comes apart.
14:37:55_bilgus__ah yes my first clip spent 6 years in the car
14:38:13_bilgus__bad sd slot did it in
14:39:07_bilgus__I feel like thats not really a knock against the FUZE though just liion in general
14:39:45speachyyeah, but they are nearly impossible to reassemble with destroying the ribbon cable for the rotary encoder
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14:40:08_bilgus__yes that has surely been established
14:40:20speachyas the... four? five? that I have in pieces can attest.
14:40:54_bilgus__I feel the same way about resoldering a sd slot in the clip+
14:41:12speachyhad to resolder the headphone jack on my first clip+
14:41:31_bilgus__yeah hear that a lot but I havn't had an issue yet
14:41:50_bilgus__I plug unplug st least 2x a day
14:42:09_bilgus__its probably more of a stress thing I imagine
14:42:11speachybut the other weakness of the sansas is the onboard flash dying. using the multiboot stuff solves that though
14:42:21_bilgus__yes big weakness
14:42:56_bilgus__IDK i'm still pretty in love with the CLIP+ and Zip very nice for working/working out
14:43:25speachyI loved the clip+; only thing I think it lacked was a proper line out. :)
14:43:53_bilgus__though the buttons on the zip are hooked by a ribbon to the outer case and the one I have currently has corroded on of the signal lines
14:44:10_bilgus__so it lost home/down
14:44:41_bilgus__but meh I'll throw it into a box till I get another for parts once it finally gets annoying enough to switch
14:45:28_bilgus__I like the clip+ so much after I bought a news one I put it up taht can be my retirement mp3 player :p
14:46:03_bilgus__I really don't like the Clip zip as much..
14:47:47_bilgus__the other thing is I really dislike apple as a company so I've steered clear of their products but they seem perfectly robust although a bit big
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15:03:29johnb5t0mato : I just got me a second xduoo x3 on *bay-kleinanzeigen for 40 Euro, and have ordered the spare battery.
15:05:26johnb5Also I have come to appreaciate the Sansa E200s, the screen is nice, overall they are rather robust and you can replace the battery. A little heavy maybe for the size of it due to the metal back.
15:06:17johnb5You can still find a lot of them used.
15:21:59johnb5speachy : On the X3, the 'Hide internal drive' just toggles which of the two card slots shows up on the PC. Can we have both exposed over USB at the same time?
15:22:37braewoodsjohnb5: should be possible. i've seen 2x drives exposed before.
15:22:39speachyI thought they both showed up.
15:23:05speachy"internal drive" ie really just the "boot drive" in this case.
15:23:22johnb5hmm, let me check again.
15:23:28genevinofwiw did someone test the surfans f20?
15:24:07speachymake sure it's a relatively recent snapshot; within the last couple of weeks
15:27:01johnb54fa945d810-200917: if hide == no, only card1 shows up on my Windows laptop
15:27:42speachyworks for me
15:28:21johnb5if yes, the card 2. Let me check with the latest build.
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15:29:25speachyI see I'm using 2ffe87902d-200920
15:30:32speachySD1 was the boot drive, SD2 was a random SD card I had lying around for a Xilinx dev board. Linux host
15:31:24speachy20200917 should be no diffrerent.
15:31:27speachymight be a Windows thing?
15:32:00johnb5confirm, same behaviour with the latest build.
15:33:13johnb5all the sansas behave properly.
15:33:53johnb5card1 is a sandisk 16GB, card2 128GB, also Sandisk
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15:40:57genevinook just ordered 2 players, 2 microsdx cards, and one pair of cx-300ii. couldn't resist.
15:41:42genevinolet's see how this goes
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15:46:36johnb5with "same behavvior" I mean what I described before, i.e. still the same.
15:47:22johnb5In a day or two, I should have my second x3. Let's see how this one behaves.
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16:12:40_bilgus__Linux, latest head I can confirm mine shows both cards as well
16:30:34speachyIIRC both cards always worked (modulo bugs in the SD, IRQ, USB, clock tree, threading, and/or cpu cache management code..0
16:30:40speachy(and/or solar flares)
16:33:53speachyI mean, it's certianly possible that there's an issue with dual cards with a Win10 host
16:34:41speachybut the only Win10 system I have access to is locked down to the point where mass storage devices are disallowed. (and will result in a nastygram from $dayjob IT)
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18:27:31braewoodsanother successful surgery
18:27:34braewoodsthe patient is recovering :D
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19:25:03braewoodsgenevino: so yea, i just finished modding another gogear.
19:25:09braewoodsfixed stuck power button to
19:25:30braewoodsthough now a small problem
19:25:51braewoodsthe new battery makes it stick up a bit so it doesn't seal flush like it used to but good enough i suppose
19:27:49braewoodsgenevino: so far found philips and iriver ports are a bit better due to their firmware still being available from the oem
19:28:02braewoodsgenevino: crucial if you're going to be replacing internal storage
19:28:38braewoodsyou have to reset the storage with a new drive
19:28:42braewoodsnew firmware
19:29:05braewoodsi always take note of how the original was formatted, mostly whether it was using a partition table or not
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20:08:40_bilgus__the problem is when you can't read the stuff off the old one
20:16:20braewoods_bilgus__: indeed.
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20:16:47braewoodsbut it would mean either a drive failure or something more serious
20:17:08braewoodsin the latter case there won't be much point to the mod
20:17:28braewoodsthere seems to only be 2 real setups to try though
20:17:38braewoodsDOS + 1 FAT32 partition
20:17:49braewoods(at least for non-ipods)
20:18:01braewoodswhole disk FAT32 filesystem
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20:36:57genevino01:25:04 [braewoods] genevino: so yea, i just finished modding another gogear.
20:37:00genevinobraewoods: wow nice
20:37:46braewoodsgenevino: you want what? stability and lots of storage?
20:39:04genevinobraewoods: yeah and good battery lifetime
20:39:20genevinobraewoods: and an EQ, a nice display, ...
20:39:39braewoodsEQ? a hardware thing? or just software?
20:39:50braewoodsEQ is probably builtin to rockbox if available
20:40:24braewoodsmost of the ipods afaik have very basic displays
20:40:33braewoodsmonochrome or greyscale typically
20:40:44braewoodsi'm assuming you want color
20:41:21braewoodsif you were going to rebuild an older thing you'd probably want a HDD unit since those often came with really good hardware stuff
20:41:41braewoodsthose can be upgraded to larger storage capacities
20:41:53braewoodshighest is 256GB in general though
20:42:01braewoodsit may be less with some models
20:42:26braewoodsi can't tell you really though... it partly depends on whether LBA48 is supported or not
20:43:36braewoodsPATA... first used 22-bit allowing a maximum of 2GB drives
20:43:51braewoodsmost common in these is 28-bit allowing up to 128G
20:44:12braewoodsLBA48 can allow for more up to 2TB (disk label limitation)
20:44:28braewoodsthough in practice largest i've seen is 256GB for rockbox mods
20:44:40braewoodsbut given how densely you can store music nowadays...
20:44:43braewoodshow much does one need?
20:46:43braewoodsI've seen entire CDs condensed to 60 MBs if Opus is used
20:47:09genevino02:40:25 [braewoods] most of the ipods afaik have very basic displays
20:47:32genevinowell literally all of the ipods have no reasonable software EQ, neither parametric or graphical
20:47:36genevinoand that's really bad
20:47:45genevino(with the original firmware, that is)
20:47:51genevinoyou basically just get a bunch of presets
20:47:57braewoodsgenevino: indeed. the iriver H10 and H3xx series both have 65K color screens
20:48:03braewoodsthat's pretty good for the era.
20:48:20genevinobraewoods: well i just ordered a rocker, let's see how that goes
20:48:27braewoodsare you off your rocker?
20:50:00braewoodsgenevino: anyway, good luck I guess? i have my reservations about sd cards, mainly how slow they tend to be.
20:50:13genevinobraewoods: oh and i got one of these things here, just for fun:
20:50:18braewoodsjust don't overdo the writes but i suspect for this purpose it won't be a problem
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20:52:05braewoodsall cheap sd cards are using flash tech that has low write endurance so not a good choice if you're doing a lot but i suspect rockbox won't be writing that often
20:52:35genevinowell if it breaks, it breaks :)
20:53:26genevinobut let's see
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21:56:00braewoodsHDD6330 has more RAM than most targets.
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