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| 02:11:53 | braewoods | speachy: serious question. sd card + sd card adapters for older rockbox targets are cheaper than true CF cards but do they hurt IO performance in real usage? |
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| 05:12:57 | ArsenArsen | huh, looks like iflash is having some trouble processing stuff w/ paypal |
| 05:13:31 | ArsenArsen | braewoods: check this article out: https://www.iflash.xyz/runtime-shootout-2016-quad-dual-solo-msata-vs-original-hard-drive/ |
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| 06:00 |
| 06:07:53 | genevino | the one thing i'm still missing on rockbox is a true shuffle mode that when i use the skip-to-next keybinding, actually will not only shuffle within the current directory, but all over the whole sd card. is there really no such option? |
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| 07:19:49 | speachy | braewoods: assuming you don't buy the absolute cheapest SD cards available, the performance is usually (much) better than the hard drives you're replacing. |
| 07:20:33 | speachy | access time is way faster, reads are usually (much) faster; and the better SD cards are also faster with writes too. |
| 07:21:07 | speachy | genevino: create a playlist across the entire device, and shuffle that? |
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| 07:22:55 | speachy | braewoods: meanwhile, verus CF cards.. ones of any decent size tend to be optimized for photography/video use and thus high write speeds in particular, so they tend to be quite fast on all fronts. SD is usually much slower in absolute terms, but in practical terms for rockbox, I don't think it matters at all, especially compared to spinning rust they're replacing. we're not a high I/O system. |
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| 08:56:09 | speachy | genevino: I ordered a Hifiwalker H2. when you get a chance, can you get me the USB VID/PID of the F20? |
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| 09:25:31 | fs-bluebot_ | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision a511917, 282 builds, 9 clients. |
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| 09:59:45 | genevino | speachy: oh yes absolutely, i guess that's even shown in rbutil, let me have a look |
| 10:00 |
| 10:01:06 | genevino | VID: c502 PID: 0023, SURFANS SURFANS |
| 10:01:30 | genevino | there you go, if i can add any other information or help in any way, let me know |
| 10:01:39 | speachy | it'll be a while |
| 10:01:58 | speachy | interesting, c502 is the same as AGPTek uses |
| 10:02:18 | genevino | interesting |
| 10:05:46 | genevino | speachy: but then again, it phsically looks just exactly like the agptek h3 and even the user interface, telling from looking at images i find via a search engine, looks exactly the same considering the position of screen elements, so i guess that's not even much surprising. |
| 10:06:14 | speachy | ah! I missed the H3 |
| 10:06:23 | genevino | ah :) |
| 10:06:56 | genevino | in fact i'm a bit pissed i bought the surfans since the agptek has a much less stupid brand name and a black case, too. |
| 10:07:09 | genevino | (: |
| 10:08:13 | speachy | no firmware downloads for the H3. |
| 10:08:35 | genevino | you mean the original fw? |
| 10:08:40 | genevino | i found it somewhere |
| 10:08:49 | speachy | yeah, no published download for it that I can see. |
| 10:08:49 | genevino | well for the surfans, that is |
| 10:08:53 | speachy | the H3 |
| 10:09:02 | genevino | hm, interesting |
| 10:09:18 | genevino | that's surprising, considering how helpful they acted towards some rockbox developers |
| 10:09:39 | genevino | https://www.surfans.net/pages/download-drivers |
| 10:09:42 | genevino | surfans has this here |
| 10:09:47 | genevino | links to some google drive, but hey |
| 10:09:58 | speachy | I don't know how much assistence they actually ever provided, beyond supplying a couple of players |
| 10:10:09 | speachy | yeah, I have the f20 update. |
| 10:10:09 | genevino | ah |
| 10:11:40 | genevino | the slogan alone when switching on the device is so super annoying. "trust your choice. be your own fans.". and all that on a white opaque #FFFFFF background with the surfans logo, every time you switch on the device |
| 10:11:45 | genevino | ultra annoying. |
| 10:12:07 | genevino | i mean why that slogan... |
| 10:12:21 | speachy | China, Inc. |
| 10:12:38 | speachy | some things don't translate well. :) |
| 10:12:54 | genevino | i could even imagine that's some common saying in chinese. :) |
| 10:13:10 | speachy | someone thought it sounded cool and inspriring? |
| 10:13:27 | genevino | maybe even that. :) |
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| 10:32:05 | speachy | there are two splash screens; the first I think is actually part of the bootloader blob, while the second is from the OS image. |
| 10:32:46 | speachy | that's why my "rocker" splashes with the Benjie logo before switching to AGPTek. :) |
| 10:41:03 | genevino | aha |
| 10:41:04 | genevino | :) |
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| 11:11:00 | * | efqw pops in |
| 11:11:22 | efqw | speachy: it's great to hear you've got the source of xvortex's port |
| 11:11:23 | genevino | hello efqw. |
| 11:12:00 | efqw | hello :) |
| 11:12:33 | efqw | I haven't been able to spare much time on the xburst stuff, and I was just trying to catch up on irc logs |
| 11:14:08 | efqw | speachy: please tell me how did xortex manage to pack an image that the player would take for OTA, lol |
| 11:14:30 | speachy | that wasn't part of the dump |
| 11:16:21 | efqw | lol |
| 11:16:56 | efqw | so what do you think would be the best approach to make the rb images flashable? |
| 11:17:24 | efqw | should we just tell people to use the ingenic usb cloner and call it a day? |
| 11:25:30 | speachy | probably the latter for now, but we have to get the code integrated first. |
| 11:31:34 | efqw | have you bought a m3k? If you haven't then I'd be happy to test stuff for you. |
| 11:31:45 | speachy | nope! |
| 11:56:45 | speachy | ok, refurb m3k on its way. what's one more.. |
| 11:57:23 | speachy | the m3k uses the x1000e, unlike the others that use the non-e versions. The e signifying 64MB vs 32MB of embedded RAM. |
| 11:58:11 | efqw | what else uses X1000 instead of X1000E other than the agptek rocker? |
| 12:00 |
| 12:01:43 | speachy | all of the other hibyplayer-based devices I've seen claim to have the X1000 (xduoo x3ii/x20, surfans f20/eros k/agptek t3, hifiwalker h2/eros q, hizids ap60ii, and undoubtedly more) |
| 12:04:28 | efqw | Most of them are full touchscreen devices, right? |
| 12:04:45 | speachy | none of those ones are. I haven't bothered to look at any of the touchscreen units. |
| 12:05:00 | speachy | (of which there are _many_) |
| 12:13:59 | efqw | Interesting. I wasn't aware of the existence of more relatively affordable (≤$100) options with physical buttons out there. |
| 12:15:18 | speachy | the ones based on the eros platforms are in the $120 range. |
| 12:16:10 | efqw | yeah, that's acceptable too, I just don't want something like $180-$200, that'd be a bit too much |
| 12:17:28 | speachy | and the seem to be plentiful (amazon prime!) for now. |
| 12:19:30 | efqw | I wonder what we can do about devices like the M3 Pro. Unlike other square options (which imo would be very hard to work with), I think its screen has enough space for a virtual keypad. |
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| 12:30:01 | efqw | The surfans f20 seems alright but imo it's not as well designed as fiio's devices are |
| 12:30:37 | speachy | at least it has hard buttons; noene of this touch nonsense. |
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| 12:30:42 | efqw | Also it seems like that series of devices are still stuck with MicroUSB, which I'm not too happy about tbh. |
| 12:34:14 | efqw | I can live with it on the m3k because it's a $55 device. I expected a more modern connector from a more expensive player tbh. What I'd really like to see is a teardown of the Surfans F20 (and clones). |
| 12:36:28 | speachy | eh, uUSB or USB-C doesn't matter to me, as all of my ports are USB-A anyway. |
| 12:36:48 | efqw | It's quite obvious that the LCD they used in the F20 (and clones) weren't really good either. I skimmed through some video reviews, and the viewing angles aren't all that great from my own observation. |
| 12:37:01 | speachy | and to be honest, USB-C is such a clusterf−−-. |
| 12:37:54 | efqw | yup, it's incredibly confusing |
| 12:37:55 | speachy | with each successive generation the USB-SIG decided things just weren't confusing enough. |
| 12:38:02 | efqw | exactly |
| 12:38:31 | efqw | now we have stupid things like USB3.1 Gen 2 SuperSpeedPlus |
| 12:40:28 | speachy | SuperDuperSpeed++ with ThunderPower! |
| 12:41:27 | efqw | thunderbolt is rather annoying as well, I could talk your ears off about the problems I had with it, lol |
| 12:42:07 | efqw | Either way, I hope fiio don't discontinue the m3k, it really is a pretty decent thing if we can get a decent port on it. |
| 12:43:04 | speachy | I'm surpised the Rocker is still going, honestly. |
| 12:43:34 | efqw | If those are still selling, I suppose there aren't any good reasons to discontinue it? |
| 12:43:34 | speachy | but all of these are ultimately at the whims of the Chinese consumer market. |
| 12:44:19 | efqw | The supplies of X1000[E] is still plentiful and this chip is not going away anytime soon. |
| 12:45:09 | speachy | presumably, but new models keep coming! |
| 12:47:10 | efqw | I really think they should stop putting old wine in new bottles (enclosures) and just focus on the software instead. |
| 12:48:06 | speachy | I expect the hard buttons stuff to get dropped entirely |
| 12:48:15 | speachy | they're more expensive to build |
| 12:48:33 | speachy | and wifi, apps, etc etc etc mean opportunties for post-sale revenue |
| 12:48:37 | efqw | Most of the frontend software I see on these players reeks low effort |
| 12:49:59 | efqw | I personally don't mind the touchscreen if it's well implemented, but in the context of rockbox, it's generally a very unfavourable option. |
| 12:50:17 | speachy | yep |
| 12:50:37 | speachy | all of hte new stuff is android-based |
| 12:50:50 | efqw | I've watched a review of the hiby r3, the frontend software really is decent. |
| 12:51:07 | genevino | you'll have to admit that android has grown to be a very good and usable operating system when it comes to touchscreen support in general. |
| 12:51:25 | genevino | i mean that stuff works GRAND these days. |
| 12:51:41 | speachy | absolutely. |
| 12:51:58 | efqw | indeed, but with android there really isn't a need for rb anymore, I could just install poweramp and call it a day |
| 12:52:07 | speachy | but compare the ipod touch with the ipod nano. |
| 12:53:12 | efqw | android players are still rather expensive ($350+), you aren't gonna get an android device with a decent dac for $100, but that's totally possible for the ingenic stuff |
| 12:53:17 | genevino | efqw: well that's actually what i do on my nexus 5x, but that doesn't cancel my passion for tiny cheap china pocket audio players, and as long as that is so, there is a definitive need for rockbox in my life. |
| 12:53:43 | genevino | you can get a cheap android phone for way less than 100 bucks these days, probably not lineageable, but some of them will probably sound fine. |
| 12:54:41 | efqw | I tried doing the same with an old android phone I had but its dac is trash, even with cheaper earbuds I can still hear treble being cut off |
| 12:55:08 | speachy | touch-only interfaces are completely unusable by visually impaired folks. |
| 12:55:29 | efqw | I knew this wasn't head-fi because even the $10 USB-C audio dongle from apple provided marginal improvements on the treble side. |
| 12:55:46 | genevino | speachy: yup, that, too. i'm hard at hearing since my birth by the way, for me, a good and seriously adjustable equalizer, like in rockbox, is a godsend. |
| 12:56:30 | speachy | plus try to operate a touch interface without looking at it −− eg when you're driving or exercising |
| 12:56:50 | efqw | yeah, accessibility is pretty important, I think rb is probably one of the only options for the visually impaired |
| 12:57:14 | efqw | unless they know how to use TalkBack or VoiceOver, but that still can't beat physical buttons |
| 12:57:31 | speachy | rockbox's accessibility is IMO its only true killer feature. |
| 12:57:52 | genevino | no, not its only one, no. just no. |
| 12:58:01 | genevino | rockbox' killer feature is its configurability. |
| 12:58:12 | efqw | for me personally it's the variety of codecs that it supports |
| 12:58:22 | genevino | you have like, PLENTY of options configuring it to your needs. for me, that's the #1 reason. |
| 12:58:28 | speachy | (plus its copyleft licensing) |
| 12:58:32 | efqw | I like opus. I don't like players that don't play opus. |
| 12:58:45 | genevino | i want configurability. i love being able to define the time over which a display fadeout happens, that's awesome. i would love even MORE options. |
| 12:58:48 | speachy | when I say killer feature, I mean something taht _nobody_ else offers. |
| 12:59:07 | genevino | yes. and the configurability is something _nobody_ else offers. |
| 12:59:24 | speachy | and something that simply isn't possible in the market |
| 12:59:26 | genevino | it makes rockbox a bit complex to get used to, yeah, but it's still the #1 reason why i'm so hyped about it. |
| 12:59:30 | genevino | yes. |
| 13:00 |
| 13:00:10 | genevino | having this kind of configurability on a 100€ pocket device (that's INCLUDING the damn SD card, man!) is just super ultra awesome. |
| 13:00:17 | efqw | and doom |
| 13:00:24 | genevino | doom segfaults on my device. :) |
| 13:00:24 | efqw | (just kidding) |
| 13:00:28 | speachy | configurability and codec support, anyone else can eventually implement in an android app or whatever. |
| 13:00:54 | genevino | speachy: true, absolutely true, but that's what makes these things so fun to use. :) |
| 13:01:02 | speachy | but there's no making a button-less android system usable by someone who cant tell where to tap. |
| 13:01:15 | genevino | absolutely agreed. |
| 13:01:42 | genevino | i have a friend i chat with on IRC every now and then and he's visually impaired. i didn't notice it while chatting with him for MONTHS. |
| 13:01:48 | genevino | he did just fine, and he replied extremely fast. |
| 13:02:39 | genevino | and he was thankful that the way i chat is so understandable for him and it took me some time to find out why that is so. |
| 13:03:16 | genevino | all in all a super mindblowing experience, and it really teaches me that someone who, uhm, can't see, is still absolutely able to use a computer, hack on things, write code, yada yada. |
| 13:03:19 | genevino | i would not have thought that. |
| 13:03:56 | genevino | according to a doctor, i'm medically "deaf". |
| 13:04:03 | speachy | at my last gig, one of my colleagues had a condition that's best descrived as "Very low resolution retinas" |
| 13:04:40 | genevino | that sounds like 320x240 would do for them lol |
| 13:04:51 | speachy | as long as it was on a screen 2' wide. :) |
| 13:04:57 | genevino | hehe |
| 13:06:28 | efqw | oh, one big improvement that I think rb would bring to these x1000[e] devices is that updating the media database won't take forever and prevent you from using the player at all now |
| 13:06:45 | efqw | and the db won't be written to the internal flash anymore |
| 13:07:09 | speachy | oh, rockbox is worlds better than the stock firmware on every DAP I've ever used. |
| 13:07:20 | genevino | speachy: +1 |
| 13:07:23 | speachy | but not as flashy. |
| 13:07:29 | genevino | speachy: -1 |
| 13:07:36 | genevino | speachy: much more flashy for me |
| 13:07:45 | genevino | speachy: MUCH more |
| 13:07:46 | efqw | keep in mind that I found a LOT of issues in xvortex's builds |
| 13:08:44 | speachy | xvortex was shoving the .rockbox dir on the internal flash for his builds. It's conceptually similar to the original firmwares, and it also gives the benefit of allowing the SD card to be hotswapped. |
| 13:08:55 | genevino | but talking about accessibility: on my agptek rocker, it's almost impossible to use it entirely without looking at it, because there's no physical locking button, and i don't see how anything would solve this. |
| 13:09:53 | efqw | That build had misaligned theme, power management doesn't work at all, ffwd was broken (I think), and database was pretty much impossible to update for me, it corrupts itself super frequently (my flash isn't bad) |
| 13:09:58 | genevino | speachy: why would that NOT be doable? i mean rockbox isn't writing to the SD card, or? |
| 13:11:39 | efqw | While others might have been able to use it, I found it to be way too problematic |
| 13:12:00 | speachy | rockbox generally assumes it won't lose access to the .rockbox directory or the file(s) currently playing. |
| 13:12:09 | genevino | gotcha |
| 13:12:41 | speachy | that's not to say it won't kinda work most of the time, but there are a lot of places where there's simply no real error handling for "our rootfs went away!" |
| 13:13:03 | efqw | yeah, rootfs being gone is a big no |
| 13:13:32 | speachy | putting .rockbox off the removable storage solves most of those issues. It's much less of an issue for the hosted targets |
| 13:13:56 | speachy | but offhand I don't know if we can count on the re-inserted sd card getting remounted, as that's technically outside the purview of rockbox. |
| 13:14:31 | efqw | So technically all we need to add to the rootfs is the "bootloader", right? |
| 13:14:50 | efqw | Not a real bootloader but more of a launcher |
| 13:14:56 | speachy | one of the many, many, many things on the list to look at when I finally dive into these hosted platforms. |
| 13:15:25 | speachy | efqw: exactly, the launcher is the only thing we put onto the rootfs for these things. |
| 13:16:26 | efqw | I still have some notes that I haven't had the time to put on the wiki page. We should at least make one other modification: symlink the log file to null |
| 13:19:23 | speachy | and make the launcher font larger (except on the rocker) |
| 13:20:36 | genevino | speachy: hm, re-mounting doesn't really matter, or? it's not a networked filesystem that drops every couple of hours, right? |
| 13:21:28 | speachy | right now the mounting is done by the launcher script. |
| 13:21:45 | genevino | aha |
| 13:22:18 | speachy | and rockbox doesn't have a mechanism to watch for card insertions on hosted targets. |
| 13:22:36 | genevino | yeah, and i don't think that's so bad, really. |
| 13:22:48 | efqw | these targets typically have mdev that you can use for this |
| 13:22:54 | efqw | at least I know m3k does |
| 13:23:04 | speachy | efqw: "patches welcome" :) |
| 13:23:13 | genevino | heh :) |
| 13:23:40 | speachy | it's really not integrated all that well into the rest of the system. |
| 13:23:44 | efqw | well, you'd have to put the rb binaries on the flash to make this useful |
| 13:24:17 | speachy | if we had the full source code/tooling used to build the system we could take over more pieces and improve intgration ... |
| 13:24:33 | speachy | (fiio might have everything published, but nobody else does) |
| 13:24:53 | efqw | yeah, this is why I liked working on the m3k, lol |
| 13:25:15 | efqw | kernel source has been published and it does at least compile |
| 13:25:35 | efqw | and I was able to figure out which version of the ingenic sdk they used |
| 13:25:37 | speachy | and I'm not really in the mood to set up a build/CI system to generate full system images... |
| 13:25:52 | efqw | me either, I suck at working with containers |
| 13:26:05 | genevino | well it's just Dockerfile's |
| 13:26:12 | genevino | that's not even half as bad as yaml |
| 13:26:36 | genevino | what REALLY sucks, is complex yaml files |
| 13:26:44 | genevino | yaml is great with trivial, small, tiny files |
| 13:26:46 | efqw | I should at least try fiio's kernel code on my m3k someday |
| 13:26:47 | speachy | and that would only be useful for the m3k, since we don't have the sources for anything else. even the compiler is the non-upstreamed hacked ingenic gcc 4.7 |
| 13:26:51 | genevino | but when they grow it becomes such a nightmare |
| 13:27:06 | efqw | yeah, the compiler is a big problem |
| 13:27:24 | speachy | and if I'm going to put that much work into something, I'd rather try to get a native x1000 port going instead. :) |
| 13:27:58 | efqw | it's using some kind of horribly outdated eglibc I think |
| 13:28:47 | speachy | which isn't _that_ insane; starting with one of the x1000 devboards could get the core platform working (cpu, clock tree, interrupts) |
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| 13:29:23 | efqw | :/ bare metal is totally out of my league unfortunately |
| 13:29:35 | efqw | but luckily we do have the full datasheet and PM |
| 13:30:40 | efqw | I can only tinker with some basic linux stuff, and even playing with the m3k has been a rather challenging process |
| 13:31:02 | speachy | where's that log file right now? |
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| 13:33:12 | efqw | /data/userfs/app.log |
| 13:34:12 | speachy | looks like that's m3k-specific |
| 13:34:20 | efqw | yeah, it is |
| 13:37:12 | | Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 13:37:49 | speachy | as an aside, the bluetooth stuff sucks down a ton of RAM. |
| 13:38:08 | | Quit marex-cloud_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
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| 13:38:54 | | Quit efqw (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) |
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| 13:54:12 | | Join efqw [0] (uid412670@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qqcjsqjclemxesls) |
| 13:54:54 | efqw | what kind of bt stack are they using? |
| 13:54:57 | efqw | bluez? |
| 13:57:07 | speachy | I think so, but there's a bunch of magic stuff hidden in the system server too. |
| 13:57:11 | pamaury | A native x1000 port could be fun, and it's well documented and has a linux source, the downside is that rockbox doesn't have a bt stack so you are loosing that compared to a linux stack |
| 13:57:37 | speachy | pamaury: we don't have working BT under linux either. :D |
| 13:58:12 | speachy | and I think our only real option for native BT would be to port bluez over. |
| 14:00 |
| 14:00:56 | pamaury | bluez is quite a beast, I am pretty sure it is possible to have a much smaller stack for more specific uses, but also a lot of work |
| 14:01:18 | speachy | all of the "embedded" stacks I could find were commercial or BTLE-only |
| 14:02:03 | pamaury | yeah, we need the equivalent of lwIP for BT ^^ |
| 14:02:55 | speachy | there's a "lwBT" actually. but it's more oriented toward data transfer stuffs rather than the audio source/sink we'd care about |
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| 14:13:27 | johnb5 | speachy: on hosted targets like the xduoo x3ii, would it be hard to enable USG OTG that is supported in the Of? |
| 14:16:06 | speachy | probably not. if the underlying platform already does the right thing. |
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| 14:46:06 | genevino | well bluez is quite a horror, even on "normal" desktops. i don't expect any human being to get this right. |
| 14:46:22 | speachy | yeah, doing it ourselves from scratch is a complete nonstarter |
| 14:46:42 | genevino | that WILL lead into problems, no matter what way you approach this, yes. |
| 14:48:42 | genevino | but then again, come on, it's bluetooth. |
| 14:49:16 | genevino | np: Autechre - Amber - foil (1994) 06:04 |
| 15:00 |
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| 15:07:02 | speachy | I've been to bluetooth "unplugfests". lots of folks showed up with an entire automotive center console. while debugging their implementations, a common occurence would be music suddently blaring out, because things suddenly started working. we all left with our ears ringing |
| 15:26:14 | genevino | ouch |
| 15:36:27 | speachy | the point being, classic bluetooth audio... is quite finicky. |
| 15:39:44 | braewoods | genevino: https://xkcd.com/2055/ |
| 15:48:49 | braewoods | i wonder if the problem is mostly due to cheap ass implementations or hardware |
| 15:48:59 | braewoods | or just the nature of bluetooth |
| 15:49:20 | braewoods | i've had RF devices before that had issues mainly becuase they were cheap ass |
| 15:49:29 | braewoods | wireless |
| 15:49:42 | braewoods | e.g., cheap ass wireless controllers |
| 15:49:43 | speachy | it's a _very_ complex spec. |
| 15:50:11 | braewoods | but logitech is a lot less problematic |
| 15:52:17 | genevino | braewoods: lmao :) |
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| 16:00 |
| 16:14:50 | genevino | and considering wireless: i'm that guy who refuses to go wireless wherever possible. |
| 16:15:31 | braewoods | genevino: regular wireless seems best when used for low bandwidth purposes... |
| 16:15:39 | speachy | my main interest in bluetooth functionality is to enable handsfree operation while driving. |
| 16:15:42 | braewoods | since it tends to run into problems with higher bandwidth |
| 16:16:13 | genevino | braewoods: depends on what for. my keyboard and mouse have a pretty static position on my desk. i see not much of a reason to make that wireless. |
| 16:16:32 | speachy | but unless the hiby functionality has much improved in more recent players, only audio streaming is there, no metadata or control operation |
| 16:16:49 | braewoods | speachy: so that rules out USB audio? |
| 16:16:53 | speachy | braewoods: and I also tend to prefer cables. |
| 16:17:12 | braewoods | i haven't done much with usb audio as i never understood why it is a thing. |
| 16:17:27 | braewoods | i have integrated sound on PCI/PCIE typically |
| 16:17:33 | speachy | braewoods: USB audio with respect to vehicles really means emulating a full android or iOS device. |
| 16:17:34 | braewoods | why do I need usb audio? |
| 16:17:42 | braewoods | I see. |
| 16:17:48 | genevino | braewoods: simple, because it's fast enough for most use-cases even with only usb 2. |
| 16:17:59 | genevino | braewoods: it's quite cool. |
| 16:18:20 | braewoods | genevino: but i have yet to find anything that really needs it, aside from this ancient ARM box that uses usb audio. |
| 16:18:31 | braewoods | to provide sound output to 3.5mm ports |
| 16:18:37 | speachy | the other advantage of usb audio −− by pulling the analog bits outside of the really noisy PC, you'll generally get cleaner-sounding audio. |
| 16:18:48 | genevino | braewoods: i have 2 soundcards that only have a usb port to attach to a computer and i honestly like them. |
| 16:19:07 | braewoods | i guess i'm weird. i usually just use integrated sound. |
| 16:19:22 | speachy | in an embedded situation using "standard usb" is also attractive, versus having to cobble together audio controllers and i2s dacs and whatnot |
| 16:19:38 | speachy | integration speed vs implementation cost |
| 16:19:50 | genevino | braewoods: that's not being weird, humans are pretty bad at disregarding what they're used to. |
| 16:20:07 | braewoods | my reasoning was always |
| 16:20:23 | braewoods | why would i go out of my way to buy a usb audio device when my integrated outputs work fine? |
| 16:20:32 | braewoods | it's extra clutter from my perspective. |
| 16:20:35 | genevino | because they sound shite |
| 16:20:54 | braewoods | I see. |
| 16:21:04 | braewoods | i assume cheap usb audio would be just as bad? |
| 16:21:20 | braewoods | Those $10 or less dongles. |
| 16:21:34 | genevino | actually not, no, if you get just a super ultra cheap behringer uca-222, the d/a converters on it will be pretty good. |
| 16:21:45 | genevino | oh the 10$ ones, yea, avoid them. |
| 16:21:54 | genevino | get something trusted on. |
| 16:22:18 | genevino | NI audio4dj for example sounds fantastic, but their driver support is a horror. |
| 16:22:57 | genevino | and the biggest problem is that the whole topic is widely un-documented on the internet. |
| 16:23:32 | genevino | but what i can safely tell you: you could easily upgrade your listening experience with way less than 400$ and it will sound FINE. |
| 16:24:03 | speachy | hey, don't forget your oxygen-depleted gold-plated optical cables so you can reduce your jitter. |
| 16:24:20 | braewoods | Made only Monster |
| 16:24:24 | braewoods | only by* |
| 16:24:31 | genevino | yea there's some seriously weird evangelism going on in the audio scene... |
| 16:24:58 | braewoods | honestly i was skeptical of what you're saying because it comes across as audiophile stuff... lol |
| 16:25:32 | speachy | just saying, there are advantages. |
| 16:25:41 | genevino | nah it isn't, really, i just think most audio setups suck and they don't have to if people are just willing to spend say, 150-500 bucks. |
| 16:25:46 | speachy | they may or may not actually matter to you. |
| 16:26:28 | genevino | it's ultra easy to make wrong decisions when it comes to that audiophile stuff, and i'd say more than half of the people spend money on the wrong things in the audiophile world. |
| 16:26:46 | speachy | my setup here is a pair of 4" car speakers inside stands/enclosures I made out of PVC pipes, connected to a TA2020 amp that's inside a literal cigar box. |
| 16:27:02 | genevino | O.O |
| 16:27:14 | genevino | okaaaay. |
| 16:27:28 | braewoods | any EMI shielding? |
| 16:27:38 | speachy | routed through an old nuReality Vivid3D. driven by... the integrated audio on my 7-year-old motherboard. |
| 16:27:59 | speachy | no shielding whatsoever. |
| 16:28:10 | braewoods | Not sure if that's wise but ok. lol |
| 16:28:27 | speachy | can't hear any noise even when it's cranked up far louder than I can handle |
| 16:28:53 | speachy | we're talking 10W of amplification total here. |
| 16:29:21 | speachy | but it sounds far better than it has any right to. which is actually pretty nice. |
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| 16:33:40 | genevino | well, that probably sounds like a poser or something, but my current listening setup is: 2x tannoy reveal s8 studio monitors, 1 ecler nuo 3.0 mixer, 1 NI audio4dj usb sound card, 1 harman/kardon receiver to drive 2 technics shelf speakers that are under the tables, 1 harman/kardon subwoofer (10" woofer, active) under the desk. |
| 16:34:17 | genevino | that's my sleeping room setup. |
| 16:34:28 | speachy | I spent about a total of $50 on this, including the PVC and spray paint. |
| 16:34:36 | genevino | eww |
| 16:34:42 | genevino | this here probably 2k? |
| 16:34:58 | genevino | probably more. |
| 16:35:25 | genevino | the setup in the living room is way more crazy |
| 16:35:49 | genevino | been stealing food out of the waste of supermarkets, been stealing frozen food from my parents home by breaking in, stuff like that |
| 16:35:54 | genevino | just to get those infinity alpha50 |
| 16:35:55 | speachy | https://www.peachyphotos.com/po/photo/223762:328901 here it is before I painted it |
| 16:36:34 | genevino | speachy: well that looks...hacky. |
| 16:36:36 | speachy | using a PC power supply breakout and an old slim devices slimp3 player |
| 16:36:47 | speachy | the pvc is both a stand and a bass port |
| 16:36:58 | genevino | i see that. :) |
| 16:37:21 | genevino | that's quite crazy |
| 16:37:37 | speachy | I'm never going to claim it's going to win awards but I had everything but the amp and pvc lying around and I really didn't want to have to spend a pile of money on shielded monitors that didn't suck. |
| 16:38:18 | speachy | the cigar box replaced a stack of wifi chipset specs as a monitor stand |
| 16:38:18 | genevino | all monitors suck. and then you die. |
| 16:38:31 | speachy | s/monitor/display/ |
| 16:38:48 | genevino | it's ultra hard to find monitors that you can live with for, say, 5 years or so |
| 16:39:14 | speachy | I should have made the bottom loops a little longer for stability purposes but I suppose nothing is really catproof. |
| 16:39:17 | genevino | i actualy downgraded from mackie tapco s8 to tannoy reveals for my sleeping room |
| 16:39:30 | genevino | it was like "yeah ok the smaller ones will do..." |
| 16:39:58 | speachy | what makes this really sound good is one of these: https://reverb.com/item/30968311-srs-labs-wow-thing-predecessor-nureality-vivid-3d-with-genuine-power-supply |
| 16:40:47 | genevino | what's that? just a DSP? |
| 16:40:51 | speachy | completely analog |
| 16:40:58 | speachy | widens the sound stage basically |
| 16:40:58 | genevino | aha |
| 16:41:10 | genevino | so adds delay on one of the channels? |
| 16:41:45 | speachy | the one I have is the higher end unit that has more knobs to twiddle, but these things have seen a resurgence in popularity with electrid guitars |
| 16:42:03 | speachy | like all "vintage" gear the prices are ludicrous now |
| 16:42:19 | genevino | yea |
| 16:44:17 | genevino | speachy: the display on the f20 is MUCH more satisfying than the one on the agptek rocker btw |
| 16:44:30 | speachy | I figured I could use the amp with some unpowered monitors if the PVC experiment failed. And, heh, I actually had everything but the top two pieces of PVC already, so the investment was truly minimal. |
| 16:44:47 | speachy | genevino: the rocker's screen is quite lousy. but you'd expect as much given it's 1/2 the cost |
| 16:45:21 | genevino | speachy: true, but i still want rockbox on the f20 so badly it's not funny. |
| 16:45:38 | speachy | oh, you'll also cringe when I tell you I'm using doorbell wiring to connect the speakers to the amp. :) |
| 16:46:11 | genevino | as long as they don't get hot, no, i won't. i'm actually an electrician. |
| 16:46:26 | speachy | .think 18ga solid copper! objectively better than monster! |
| 16:46:53 | genevino | why not, as long as you don't drive discotheque soundsystems with them that will work. |
| 16:47:38 | speachy | the amp was one of those infamous tripath units that turned the class-D amp space on its metaphorical ear. |
| 16:47:46 | genevino | and since you don't run ultra low power over that like with the cabling of vinyl pickups or something like that, capacity of the cable doesn't really matter, either. |
| 16:50:52 | genevino | you could probably use those doorbell wires to drive seriously huge systems even without any hassle. |
| 16:51:43 | genevino | and no i don't think they'll sound that much worse. ;) |
| 17:00 |
| 17:05:25 | braewoods | speachy: hear anything from Pine? |
| 17:05:59 | speachy | yes; a few emails traded; it's back in my court at the moment |
| 17:06:54 | speachy | the short summary is taht they're considering releasing a variation of their pinephone sans the LTE radio and an expansion bus that allows for a high quality audio interface. |
| 17:07:12 | braewoods | speachy: interesting. |
| 17:07:22 | braewoods | main advantage i see is... |
| 17:07:23 | speachy | that's great... but not really what we are looking for. |
| 17:07:39 | braewoods | if you could get a mainline Linux system to springboard from... |
| 17:07:43 | speachy | (that whole "full touch UI" thing) |
| 17:07:45 | braewoods | fewer problems with using it as a target |
| 17:08:26 | braewoods | and can try to customize the kernel heavily |
| 17:08:37 | braewoods | realtime kernels are a thing though I've rarely seen a purpose to them |
| 17:09:11 | braewoods | speachy: so basically, an ipod touch knockoff? |
| 17:09:44 | speachy | yep. it'll undoubtedly be a good device, but just not what we're clamoring for. |
| 17:10:35 | speachy | not to mention 2 orders of magnitude more oomph and ram than we can use as a DAP. |
| 17:14:04 | braewoods | speachy: i discovered mmcx earbuds for the first time. |
| 17:14:05 | speachy | now we can fake real buttons by sectorizing the screen into a display area and a semi-permanent button area, but it still doesn't align with user expectations for such a device. |
| 17:14:19 | braewoods | interesting device. |
| 17:14:29 | braewoods | and they seem to sound better than regular earbuds |
| 17:14:36 | braewoods | even though they were cheap |
| 17:20:51 | speachy | I wonder if there's any meaningful way to estimate the deployed rockbox userbase. |
| 17:21:27 | speachy | (and the guy I'm talking to at Pine64 uses Rockbox on a clip+) |
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| 18:02:33 | braewoods | yea. |
| 18:02:42 | braewoods | afaik you want a simple screen and hardware buttons. |
| 18:02:47 | braewoods | not 100% touch screen |
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| 20:40:26 | speachy | __builtin, _bilgus__, let me know if you'd like to be copied on this Pine64 discussion. |
| 20:42:41 | speachy | gevaerts, bluebrother, you too. Anyone who's at least semi-active. |
| 20:46:44 | __builtin | I'm totally out of the loop here |
| 20:46:50 | __builtin | what's going on? |
| 20:47:31 | speachy | basically, making inquiries about the possibility of a production run of DAPs specifically meant to run rockbox. |
| 20:47:40 | __builtin | ah, I see |
| 20:47:48 | __builtin | sure, I'd be interested |
| 20:48:21 | __builtin | though probably not able to contribute much... IRL things |
| 20:48:44 | speachy | I just don't want to presume that my vision should be treated as gospel. :) |
| 20:50:56 | speachy | in the mean time, if you or anyone else here has suggestions on how to gauge the size of the rockbox userbase, that would help a lot. |
| 20:51:17 | genevino | reddit /r/rockbox maybe? |
| 20:52:41 | speachy | /r/rockbox has 972 members. :D |
| 20:52:56 | genevino | well that's not that big :) |
| 20:54:55 | __builtin | speachy: you run the servers ;) |
| 20:55:10 | __builtin | unique downloaders? |
| 20:55:56 | speachy | yeah, that's going to be some interesting log slicing. Trying to exclude bots will be interesting. |
| 21:00 |
| 21:18:17 | speachy | 8K, 25K, 3K, ~17K, and 6K unique visitors/month on download, www, build, forums, and themes, respectively. |
| 21:18:53 | speachy | (according to awstats) |
| 21:19:21 | speachy | the forums bounce around a bunch but the rest are pretty consistent. |
| 21:19:28 | braewoods | __builtin: i mentioned it might be worth looking at since it may be better target in terms of Linux kernels |
| 21:19:57 | braewoods | their existing pine products are designed to run on mainline kernels which is a major bonus for ARM targets |
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| 21:32:49 | speachy | the conversation so far: https://www.shaftnet.org/~pizza/rb-p64.mbox |
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| 22:30:58 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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| 22:42:28 | braewoods | anyone aware of how exactly to perform a flash based upgrade to iriver h120 device? the old documentation is from like 12 years ago so not sure if it's all still relevant. |
| 22:42:41 | braewoods | it suggests the original firmware hates CF cards or so |
| 22:54:03 | efqw | to be honest, I think pine64 won't be able to help much with this situation unless we go with the expensive route of having to come up with new plastic molds |
| 22:54:25 | efqw | at that point we might as well start working on software keypads instead |
| 22:55:11 | efqw | a virtual keypad would get a couple of full-touch devices to work as well as the M3K would |
| 22:58:11 | efqw | what p64 excels at is their ability to supply LTS hardware, which a typical Chinese DAP vendor usually wouldn't be able to do |
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