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#rockbox log for 2020-09-29

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02:00
02:11:53braewoodsspeachy: serious question. sd card + sd card adapters for older rockbox targets are cheaper than true CF cards but do they hurt IO performance in real usage?
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05:12:57ArsenArsenhuh, looks like iflash is having some trouble processing stuff w/ paypal
05:13:31ArsenArsenbraewoods: check this article out: https://www.iflash.xyz/runtime-shootout-2016-quad-dual-solo-msata-vs-original-hard-drive/
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06:00
06:07:53genevinothe one thing i'm still missing on rockbox is a true shuffle mode that when i use the skip-to-next keybinding, actually will not only shuffle within the current directory, but all over the whole sd card. is there really no such option?
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07:19:49speachybraewoods: assuming you don't buy the absolute cheapest SD cards available, the performance is usually (much) better than the hard drives you're replacing.
07:20:33speachyaccess time is way faster, reads are usually (much) faster; and the better SD cards are also faster with writes too.
07:21:07speachygenevino: create a playlist across the entire device, and shuffle that?
07:21:55 Join ufdm [0] (~ufdm@c-73-164-63-214.hsd1.mn.comcast.net)
07:22:55speachybraewoods: meanwhile, verus CF cards.. ones of any decent size tend to be optimized for photography/video use and thus high write speeds in particular, so they tend to be quite fast on all fronts. SD is usually much slower in absolute terms, but in practical terms for rockbox, I don't think it matters at all, especially compared to spinning rust they're replacing. we're not a high I/O system.
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08:56:09speachygenevino: I ordered a Hifiwalker H2. when you get a chance, can you get me the USB VID/PID of the F20?
09:00
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09:25:31fs-bluebot_Build Server message: New build round started. Revision a511917, 282 builds, 9 clients.
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09:42:22fs-bluebot_Build Server message: Build round completed after 1011 seconds.
09:42:26fs-bluebot_Build Server message: Revision a511917 result: All green
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09:59:45genevinospeachy: oh yes absolutely, i guess that's even shown in rbutil, let me have a look
10:00
10:01:06genevinoVID: c502 PID: 0023, SURFANS SURFANS
10:01:30genevinothere you go, if i can add any other information or help in any way, let me know
10:01:39speachyit'll be a while
10:01:58speachyinteresting, c502 is the same as AGPTek uses
10:02:18genevinointeresting
10:05:46genevinospeachy: but then again, it phsically looks just exactly like the agptek h3 and even the user interface, telling from looking at images i find via a search engine, looks exactly the same considering the position of screen elements, so i guess that's not even much surprising.
10:06:14speachyah! I missed the H3
10:06:23genevinoah :)
10:06:56genevinoin fact i'm a bit pissed i bought the surfans since the agptek has a much less stupid brand name and a black case, too.
10:07:09genevino(:
10:08:13speachyno firmware downloads for the H3.
10:08:35genevinoyou mean the original fw?
10:08:40genevinoi found it somewhere
10:08:49speachyyeah, no published download for it that I can see.
10:08:49genevinowell for the surfans, that is
10:08:53speachythe H3
10:09:02genevinohm, interesting
10:09:18genevinothat's surprising, considering how helpful they acted towards some rockbox developers
10:09:39genevinohttps://www.surfans.net/pages/download-drivers
10:09:42genevinosurfans has this here
10:09:47genevinolinks to some google drive, but hey
10:09:58speachyI don't know how much assistence they actually ever provided, beyond supplying a couple of players
10:10:09speachyyeah, I have the f20 update.
10:10:09genevinoah
10:11:40genevinothe slogan alone when switching on the device is so super annoying. "trust your choice. be your own fans.". and all that on a white opaque #FFFFFF background with the surfans logo, every time you switch on the device
10:11:45genevinoultra annoying.
10:12:07genevinoi mean why that slogan...
10:12:21speachyChina, Inc.
10:12:38speachysome things don't translate well. :)
10:12:54genevinoi could even imagine that's some common saying in chinese. :)
10:13:10speachysomeone thought it sounded cool and inspriring?
10:13:27genevinomaybe even that. :)
10:30:41***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
10:32:05speachythere are two splash screens; the first I think is actually part of the bootloader blob, while the second is from the OS image.
10:32:46speachythat's why my "rocker" splashes with the Benjie logo before switching to AGPTek. :)
10:41:03genevinoaha
10:41:04genevino:)
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11:00
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11:11:00*efqw pops in
11:11:22efqwspeachy: it's great to hear you've got the source of xvortex's port
11:11:23genevinohello efqw.
11:12:00efqwhello :)
11:12:33efqwI haven't been able to spare much time on the xburst stuff, and I was just trying to catch up on irc logs
11:14:08efqwspeachy: please tell me how did xortex manage to pack an image that the player would take for OTA, lol
11:14:30speachythat wasn't part of the dump
11:16:21efqwlol
11:16:56efqwso what do you think would be the best approach to make the rb images flashable?
11:17:24efqwshould we just tell people to use the ingenic usb cloner and call it a day?
11:25:30speachyprobably the latter for now, but we have to get the code integrated first.
11:31:34efqwhave you bought a m3k? If you haven't then I'd be happy to test stuff for you.
11:31:45speachynope!
11:56:45speachyok, refurb m3k on its way. what's one more..
11:57:23speachythe m3k uses the x1000e, unlike the others that use the non-e versions. The e signifying 64MB vs 32MB of embedded RAM.
11:58:11efqwwhat else uses X1000 instead of X1000E other than the agptek rocker?
12:00
12:01:43speachyall of the other hibyplayer-based devices I've seen claim to have the X1000 (xduoo x3ii/x20, surfans f20/eros k/agptek t3, hifiwalker h2/eros q, hizids ap60ii, and undoubtedly more)
12:04:28efqwMost of them are full touchscreen devices, right?
12:04:45speachynone of those ones are. I haven't bothered to look at any of the touchscreen units.
12:05:00speachy(of which there are _many_)
12:13:59efqwInteresting. I wasn't aware of the existence of more relatively affordable (≤$100) options with physical buttons out there.
12:15:18speachythe ones based on the eros platforms are in the $120 range.
12:16:10efqwyeah, that's acceptable too, I just don't want something like $180-$200, that'd be a bit too much
12:17:28speachyand the seem to be plentiful (amazon prime!) for now.
12:19:30efqwI wonder what we can do about devices like the M3 Pro. Unlike other square options (which imo would be very hard to work with), I think its screen has enough space for a virtual keypad.
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12:30:01efqwThe surfans f20 seems alright but imo it's not as well designed as fiio's devices are
12:30:37speachyat least it has hard buttons; noene of this touch nonsense.
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12:30:42efqwAlso it seems like that series of devices are still stuck with MicroUSB, which I'm not too happy about tbh.
12:34:14efqwI can live with it on the m3k because it's a $55 device. I expected a more modern connector from a more expensive player tbh. What I'd really like to see is a teardown of the Surfans F20 (and clones).
12:36:28speachyeh, uUSB or USB-C doesn't matter to me, as all of my ports are USB-A anyway.
12:36:48efqwIt's quite obvious that the LCD they used in the F20 (and clones) weren't really good either. I skimmed through some video reviews, and the viewing angles aren't all that great from my own observation.
12:37:01speachyand to be honest, USB-C is such a clusterf−−-.
12:37:54efqwyup, it's incredibly confusing
12:37:55speachywith each successive generation the USB-SIG decided things just weren't confusing enough.
12:38:02efqwexactly
12:38:31efqwnow we have stupid things like USB3.1 Gen 2 SuperSpeedPlus
12:40:28speachySuperDuperSpeed++ with ThunderPower!
12:41:27efqwthunderbolt is rather annoying as well, I could talk your ears off about the problems I had with it, lol
12:42:07efqwEither way, I hope fiio don't discontinue the m3k, it really is a pretty decent thing if we can get a decent port on it.
12:43:04speachyI'm surpised the Rocker is still going, honestly.
12:43:34efqwIf those are still selling, I suppose there aren't any good reasons to discontinue it?
12:43:34speachybut all of these are ultimately at the whims of the Chinese consumer market.
12:44:19efqwThe supplies of X1000[E] is still plentiful and this chip is not going away anytime soon.
12:45:09speachypresumably, but new models keep coming!
12:47:10efqwI really think they should stop putting old wine in new bottles (enclosures) and just focus on the software instead.
12:48:06speachyI expect the hard buttons stuff to get dropped entirely
12:48:15speachythey're more expensive to build
12:48:33speachyand wifi, apps, etc etc etc mean opportunties for post-sale revenue
12:48:37efqwMost of the frontend software I see on these players reeks low effort
12:49:59efqwI personally don't mind the touchscreen if it's well implemented, but in the context of rockbox, it's generally a very unfavourable option.
12:50:17speachyyep
12:50:37speachyall of hte new stuff is android-based
12:50:50efqwI've watched a review of the hiby r3, the frontend software really is decent.
12:51:07genevinoyou'll have to admit that android has grown to be a very good and usable operating system when it comes to touchscreen support in general.
12:51:25genevinoi mean that stuff works GRAND these days.
12:51:41speachyabsolutely.
12:51:58efqwindeed, but with android there really isn't a need for rb anymore, I could just install poweramp and call it a day
12:52:07speachybut compare the ipod touch with the ipod nano.
12:53:12efqwandroid players are still rather expensive ($350+), you aren't gonna get an android device with a decent dac for $100, but that's totally possible for the ingenic stuff
12:53:17genevinoefqw: well that's actually what i do on my nexus 5x, but that doesn't cancel my passion for tiny cheap china pocket audio players, and as long as that is so, there is a definitive need for rockbox in my life.
12:53:43genevinoyou can get a cheap android phone for way less than 100 bucks these days, probably not lineageable, but some of them will probably sound fine.
12:54:41efqwI tried doing the same with an old android phone I had but its dac is trash, even with cheaper earbuds I can still hear treble being cut off
12:55:08speachytouch-only interfaces are completely unusable by visually impaired folks.
12:55:29efqwI knew this wasn't head-fi because even the $10 USB-C audio dongle from apple provided marginal improvements on the treble side.
12:55:46genevinospeachy: yup, that, too. i'm hard at hearing since my birth by the way, for me, a good and seriously adjustable equalizer, like in rockbox, is a godsend.
12:56:30speachyplus try to operate a touch interface without looking at it −− eg when you're driving or exercising
12:56:50efqwyeah, accessibility is pretty important, I think rb is probably one of the only options for the visually impaired
12:57:14efqwunless they know how to use TalkBack or VoiceOver, but that still can't beat physical buttons
12:57:31speachyrockbox's accessibility is IMO its only true killer feature.
12:57:52genevinono, not its only one, no. just no.
12:58:01genevinorockbox' killer feature is its configurability.
12:58:12efqwfor me personally it's the variety of codecs that it supports
12:58:22genevinoyou have like, PLENTY of options configuring it to your needs. for me, that's the #1 reason.
12:58:28speachy(plus its copyleft licensing)
12:58:32efqwI like opus. I don't like players that don't play opus.
12:58:45genevinoi want configurability. i love being able to define the time over which a display fadeout happens, that's awesome. i would love even MORE options.
12:58:48speachywhen I say killer feature, I mean something taht _nobody_ else offers.
12:59:07genevinoyes. and the configurability is something _nobody_ else offers.
12:59:24speachyand something that simply isn't possible in the market
12:59:26genevinoit makes rockbox a bit complex to get used to, yeah, but it's still the #1 reason why i'm so hyped about it.
12:59:30genevinoyes.
13:00
13:00:10genevinohaving this kind of configurability on a 100€ pocket device (that's INCLUDING the damn SD card, man!) is just super ultra awesome.
13:00:17efqwand doom
13:00:24genevinodoom segfaults on my device. :)
13:00:24efqw(just kidding)
13:00:28speachyconfigurability and codec support, anyone else can eventually implement in an android app or whatever.
13:00:54genevinospeachy: true, absolutely true, but that's what makes these things so fun to use. :)
13:01:02speachybut there's no making a button-less android system usable by someone who cant tell where to tap.
13:01:15genevinoabsolutely agreed.
13:01:42genevinoi have a friend i chat with on IRC every now and then and he's visually impaired. i didn't notice it while chatting with him for MONTHS.
13:01:48genevinohe did just fine, and he replied extremely fast.
13:02:39genevinoand he was thankful that the way i chat is so understandable for him and it took me some time to find out why that is so.
13:03:16genevinoall in all a super mindblowing experience, and it really teaches me that someone who, uhm, can't see, is still absolutely able to use a computer, hack on things, write code, yada yada.
13:03:19genevinoi would not have thought that.
13:03:56genevinoaccording to a doctor, i'm medically "deaf".
13:04:03speachyat my last gig, one of my colleagues had a condition that's best descrived as "Very low resolution retinas"
13:04:40genevinothat sounds like 320x240 would do for them lol
13:04:51speachyas long as it was on a screen 2' wide. :)
13:04:57genevinohehe
13:06:28efqwoh, one big improvement that I think rb would bring to these x1000[e] devices is that updating the media database won't take forever and prevent you from using the player at all now
13:06:45efqwand the db won't be written to the internal flash anymore
13:07:09speachyoh, rockbox is worlds better than the stock firmware on every DAP I've ever used.
13:07:20genevinospeachy: +1
13:07:23speachybut not as flashy.
13:07:29genevinospeachy: -1
13:07:36genevinospeachy: much more flashy for me
13:07:45genevinospeachy: MUCH more
13:07:46efqwkeep in mind that I found a LOT of issues in xvortex's builds
13:08:44speachyxvortex was shoving the .rockbox dir on the internal flash for his builds. It's conceptually similar to the original firmwares, and it also gives the benefit of allowing the SD card to be hotswapped.
13:08:55genevinobut talking about accessibility: on my agptek rocker, it's almost impossible to use it entirely without looking at it, because there's no physical locking button, and i don't see how anything would solve this.
13:09:53efqwThat build had misaligned theme, power management doesn't work at all, ffwd was broken (I think), and database was pretty much impossible to update for me, it corrupts itself super frequently (my flash isn't bad)
13:09:58genevinospeachy: why would that NOT be doable? i mean rockbox isn't writing to the SD card, or?
13:11:39efqwWhile others might have been able to use it, I found it to be way too problematic
13:12:00speachyrockbox generally assumes it won't lose access to the .rockbox directory or the file(s) currently playing.
13:12:09genevinogotcha
13:12:41speachythat's not to say it won't kinda work most of the time, but there are a lot of places where there's simply no real error handling for "our rootfs went away!"
13:13:03efqwyeah, rootfs being gone is a big no
13:13:32speachyputting .rockbox off the removable storage solves most of those issues. It's much less of an issue for the hosted targets
13:13:56speachybut offhand I don't know if we can count on the re-inserted sd card getting remounted, as that's technically outside the purview of rockbox.
13:14:31efqwSo technically all we need to add to the rootfs is the "bootloader", right?
13:14:50efqwNot a real bootloader but more of a launcher
13:14:56speachyone of the many, many, many things on the list to look at when I finally dive into these hosted platforms.
13:15:25speachyefqw: exactly, the launcher is the only thing we put onto the rootfs for these things.
13:16:26efqwI still have some notes that I haven't had the time to put on the wiki page. We should at least make one other modification: symlink the log file to null
13:19:23speachyand make the launcher font larger (except on the rocker)
13:20:36genevinospeachy: hm, re-mounting doesn't really matter, or? it's not a networked filesystem that drops every couple of hours, right?
13:21:28speachyright now the mounting is done by the launcher script.
13:21:45genevinoaha
13:22:18speachyand rockbox doesn't have a mechanism to watch for card insertions on hosted targets.
13:22:36genevinoyeah, and i don't think that's so bad, really.
13:22:48efqwthese targets typically have mdev that you can use for this
13:22:54efqwat least I know m3k does
13:23:04speachyefqw: "patches welcome" :)
13:23:13genevinoheh :)
13:23:40speachyit's really not integrated all that well into the rest of the system.
13:23:44efqwwell, you'd have to put the rb binaries on the flash to make this useful
13:24:17speachyif we had the full source code/tooling used to build the system we could take over more pieces and improve intgration ...
13:24:33speachy(fiio might have everything published, but nobody else does)
13:24:53efqwyeah, this is why I liked working on the m3k, lol
13:25:15efqwkernel source has been published and it does at least compile
13:25:35efqwand I was able to figure out which version of the ingenic sdk they used
13:25:37speachyand I'm not really in the mood to set up a build/CI system to generate full system images...
13:25:52efqwme either, I suck at working with containers
13:26:05genevinowell it's just Dockerfile's
13:26:12genevinothat's not even half as bad as yaml
13:26:36genevinowhat REALLY sucks, is complex yaml files
13:26:44genevinoyaml is great with trivial, small, tiny files
13:26:46efqwI should at least try fiio's kernel code on my m3k someday
13:26:47speachyand that would only be useful for the m3k, since we don't have the sources for anything else. even the compiler is the non-upstreamed hacked ingenic gcc 4.7
13:26:51genevinobut when they grow it becomes such a nightmare
13:27:06efqwyeah, the compiler is a big problem
13:27:24speachyand if I'm going to put that much work into something, I'd rather try to get a native x1000 port going instead. :)
13:27:58efqwit's using some kind of horribly outdated eglibc I think
13:28:47speachywhich isn't _that_ insane; starting with one of the x1000 devboards could get the core platform working (cpu, clock tree, interrupts)
13:29:00 Join pamaury [0] (~pamaury@rockbox/developer/pamaury)
13:29:23efqw:/ bare metal is totally out of my league unfortunately
13:29:35efqwbut luckily we do have the full datasheet and PM
13:30:40efqwI can only tinker with some basic linux stuff, and even playing with the m3k has been a rather challenging process
13:31:02speachywhere's that log file right now?
13:31:15 Join lebellium [0] (~lebellium@89-92-69-66.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
13:33:12efqw /data/userfs/app.log
13:34:12speachylooks like that's m3k-specific
13:34:20efqwyeah, it is
13:37:12 Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
13:37:49speachyas an aside, the bluetooth stuff sucks down a ton of RAM.
13:38:08 Quit marex-cloud_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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13:54:54efqwwhat kind of bt stack are they using?
13:54:57efqwbluez?
13:57:07speachyI think so, but there's a bunch of magic stuff hidden in the system server too.
13:57:11pamauryA native x1000 port could be fun, and it's well documented and has a linux source, the downside is that rockbox doesn't have a bt stack so you are loosing that compared to a linux stack
13:57:37speachypamaury: we don't have working BT under linux either. :D
13:58:12speachyand I think our only real option for native BT would be to port bluez over.
14:00
14:00:56pamaurybluez is quite a beast, I am pretty sure it is possible to have a much smaller stack for more specific uses, but also a lot of work
14:01:18speachyall of the "embedded" stacks I could find were commercial or BTLE-only
14:02:03pamauryyeah, we need the equivalent of lwIP for BT ^^
14:02:55speachythere's a "lwBT" actually. but it's more oriented toward data transfer stuffs rather than the audio source/sink we'd care about
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14:13:27johnb5speachy: on hosted targets like the xduoo x3ii, would it be hard to enable USG OTG that is supported in the Of?
14:16:06speachyprobably not. if the underlying platform already does the right thing.
14:16:10 Quit mendelmunkis (Remote host closed the connection)
14:30:46***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
14:46:06genevinowell bluez is quite a horror, even on "normal" desktops. i don't expect any human being to get this right.
14:46:22speachyyeah, doing it ourselves from scratch is a complete nonstarter
14:46:42genevinothat WILL lead into problems, no matter what way you approach this, yes.
14:48:42genevinobut then again, come on, it's bluetooth.
14:49:16genevinonp: Autechre - Amber - foil (1994) 06:04
15:00
15:03:25 Quit johnb5 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
15:07:02speachyI've been to bluetooth "unplugfests". lots of folks showed up with an entire automotive center console. while debugging their implementations, a common occurence would be music suddently blaring out, because things suddenly started working. we all left with our ears ringing
15:26:14genevinoouch
15:36:27speachythe point being, classic bluetooth audio... is quite finicky.
15:39:44braewoodsgenevino: https://xkcd.com/2055/
15:48:49braewoodsi wonder if the problem is mostly due to cheap ass implementations or hardware
15:48:59braewoodsor just the nature of bluetooth
15:49:20braewoodsi've had RF devices before that had issues mainly becuase they were cheap ass
15:49:29braewoodswireless
15:49:42braewoodse.g., cheap ass wireless controllers
15:49:43speachyit's a _very_ complex spec.
15:50:11braewoodsbut logitech is a lot less problematic
15:52:17genevinobraewoods: lmao :)
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16:14:50genevinoand considering wireless: i'm that guy who refuses to go wireless wherever possible.
16:15:31braewoodsgenevino: regular wireless seems best when used for low bandwidth purposes...
16:15:39speachymy main interest in bluetooth functionality is to enable handsfree operation while driving.
16:15:42braewoodssince it tends to run into problems with higher bandwidth
16:16:13genevinobraewoods: depends on what for. my keyboard and mouse have a pretty static position on my desk. i see not much of a reason to make that wireless.
16:16:32speachybut unless the hiby functionality has much improved in more recent players, only audio streaming is there, no metadata or control operation
16:16:49braewoodsspeachy: so that rules out USB audio?
16:16:53speachybraewoods: and I also tend to prefer cables.
16:17:12braewoodsi haven't done much with usb audio as i never understood why it is a thing.
16:17:27braewoodsi have integrated sound on PCI/PCIE typically
16:17:33speachybraewoods: USB audio with respect to vehicles really means emulating a full android or iOS device.
16:17:34braewoodswhy do I need usb audio?
16:17:42braewoodsI see.
16:17:48genevinobraewoods: simple, because it's fast enough for most use-cases even with only usb 2.
16:17:59genevinobraewoods: it's quite cool.
16:18:20braewoodsgenevino: but i have yet to find anything that really needs it, aside from this ancient ARM box that uses usb audio.
16:18:31braewoodsto provide sound output to 3.5mm ports
16:18:37speachythe other advantage of usb audio −− by pulling the analog bits outside of the really noisy PC, you'll generally get cleaner-sounding audio.
16:18:48genevinobraewoods: i have 2 soundcards that only have a usb port to attach to a computer and i honestly like them.
16:19:07braewoodsi guess i'm weird. i usually just use integrated sound.
16:19:22speachyin an embedded situation using "standard usb" is also attractive, versus having to cobble together audio controllers and i2s dacs and whatnot
16:19:38speachyintegration speed vs implementation cost
16:19:50genevinobraewoods: that's not being weird, humans are pretty bad at disregarding what they're used to.
16:20:07braewoodsmy reasoning was always
16:20:23braewoodswhy would i go out of my way to buy a usb audio device when my integrated outputs work fine?
16:20:32braewoodsit's extra clutter from my perspective.
16:20:35genevinobecause they sound shite
16:20:54braewoodsI see.
16:21:04braewoodsi assume cheap usb audio would be just as bad?
16:21:20braewoodsThose $10 or less dongles.
16:21:34genevinoactually not, no, if you get just a super ultra cheap behringer uca-222, the d/a converters on it will be pretty good.
16:21:45genevinooh the 10$ ones, yea, avoid them.
16:21:54genevinoget something trusted on.
16:22:18genevinoNI audio4dj for example sounds fantastic, but their driver support is a horror.
16:22:57genevinoand the biggest problem is that the whole topic is widely un-documented on the internet.
16:23:32genevinobut what i can safely tell you: you could easily upgrade your listening experience with way less than 400$ and it will sound FINE.
16:24:03speachyhey, don't forget your oxygen-depleted gold-plated optical cables so you can reduce your jitter.
16:24:20braewoodsMade only Monster
16:24:24braewoodsonly by*
16:24:31genevinoyea there's some seriously weird evangelism going on in the audio scene...
16:24:58braewoodshonestly i was skeptical of what you're saying because it comes across as audiophile stuff... lol
16:25:32speachyjust saying, there are advantages.
16:25:41genevinonah it isn't, really, i just think most audio setups suck and they don't have to if people are just willing to spend say, 150-500 bucks.
16:25:46speachythey may or may not actually matter to you.
16:26:28genevinoit's ultra easy to make wrong decisions when it comes to that audiophile stuff, and i'd say more than half of the people spend money on the wrong things in the audiophile world.
16:26:46speachymy setup here is a pair of 4" car speakers inside stands/enclosures I made out of PVC pipes, connected to a TA2020 amp that's inside a literal cigar box.
16:27:02genevinoO.O
16:27:14genevinookaaaay.
16:27:28braewoodsany EMI shielding?
16:27:38speachyrouted through an old nuReality Vivid3D. driven by... the integrated audio on my 7-year-old motherboard.
16:27:59speachyno shielding whatsoever.
16:28:10braewoodsNot sure if that's wise but ok. lol
16:28:27speachycan't hear any noise even when it's cranked up far louder than I can handle
16:28:53speachywe're talking 10W of amplification total here.
16:29:21speachybut it sounds far better than it has any right to. which is actually pretty nice.
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16:33:40genevinowell, that probably sounds like a poser or something, but my current listening setup is: 2x tannoy reveal s8 studio monitors, 1 ecler nuo 3.0 mixer, 1 NI audio4dj usb sound card, 1 harman/kardon receiver to drive 2 technics shelf speakers that are under the tables, 1 harman/kardon subwoofer (10" woofer, active) under the desk.
16:34:17genevinothat's my sleeping room setup.
16:34:28speachyI spent about a total of $50 on this, including the PVC and spray paint.
16:34:36genevinoeww
16:34:42genevinothis here probably 2k?
16:34:58genevinoprobably more.
16:35:25genevinothe setup in the living room is way more crazy
16:35:49genevinobeen stealing food out of the waste of supermarkets, been stealing frozen food from my parents home by breaking in, stuff like that
16:35:54genevinojust to get those infinity alpha50
16:35:55speachyhttps://www.peachyphotos.com/po/photo/223762:328901 here it is before I painted it
16:36:34genevinospeachy: well that looks...hacky.
16:36:36speachyusing a PC power supply breakout and an old slim devices slimp3 player
16:36:47speachythe pvc is both a stand and a bass port
16:36:58genevinoi see that. :)
16:37:21genevinothat's quite crazy
16:37:37speachyI'm never going to claim it's going to win awards but I had everything but the amp and pvc lying around and I really didn't want to have to spend a pile of money on shielded monitors that didn't suck.
16:38:18speachythe cigar box replaced a stack of wifi chipset specs as a monitor stand
16:38:18genevinoall monitors suck. and then you die.
16:38:31speachys/monitor/display/
16:38:48genevinoit's ultra hard to find monitors that you can live with for, say, 5 years or so
16:39:14speachyI should have made the bottom loops a little longer for stability purposes but I suppose nothing is really catproof.
16:39:17genevinoi actualy downgraded from mackie tapco s8 to tannoy reveals for my sleeping room
16:39:30genevinoit was like "yeah ok the smaller ones will do..."
16:39:58speachywhat makes this really sound good is one of these: https://reverb.com/item/30968311-srs-labs-wow-thing-predecessor-nureality-vivid-3d-with-genuine-power-supply
16:40:47genevinowhat's that? just a DSP?
16:40:51speachycompletely analog
16:40:58speachywidens the sound stage basically
16:40:58genevinoaha
16:41:10genevinoso adds delay on one of the channels?
16:41:45speachythe one I have is the higher end unit that has more knobs to twiddle, but these things have seen a resurgence in popularity with electrid guitars
16:42:03speachylike all "vintage" gear the prices are ludicrous now
16:42:19genevinoyea
16:44:17genevinospeachy: the display on the f20 is MUCH more satisfying than the one on the agptek rocker btw
16:44:30speachyI figured I could use the amp with some unpowered monitors if the PVC experiment failed. And, heh, I actually had everything but the top two pieces of PVC already, so the investment was truly minimal.
16:44:47speachygenevino: the rocker's screen is quite lousy. but you'd expect as much given it's 1/2 the cost
16:45:21genevinospeachy: true, but i still want rockbox on the f20 so badly it's not funny.
16:45:38speachyoh, you'll also cringe when I tell you I'm using doorbell wiring to connect the speakers to the amp. :)
16:46:11genevinoas long as they don't get hot, no, i won't. i'm actually an electrician.
16:46:26speachy.think 18ga solid copper! objectively better than monster!
16:46:53genevinowhy not, as long as you don't drive discotheque soundsystems with them that will work.
16:47:38speachythe amp was one of those infamous tripath units that turned the class-D amp space on its metaphorical ear.
16:47:46genevinoand since you don't run ultra low power over that like with the cabling of vinyl pickups or something like that, capacity of the cable doesn't really matter, either.
16:50:52genevinoyou could probably use those doorbell wires to drive seriously huge systems even without any hassle.
16:51:43genevinoand no i don't think they'll sound that much worse. ;)
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17:05:25braewoodsspeachy: hear anything from Pine?
17:05:59speachyyes; a few emails traded; it's back in my court at the moment
17:06:54speachythe short summary is taht they're considering releasing a variation of their pinephone sans the LTE radio and an expansion bus that allows for a high quality audio interface.
17:07:12braewoodsspeachy: interesting.
17:07:22braewoodsmain advantage i see is...
17:07:23speachythat's great... but not really what we are looking for.
17:07:39braewoodsif you could get a mainline Linux system to springboard from...
17:07:43speachy(that whole "full touch UI" thing)
17:07:45braewoodsfewer problems with using it as a target
17:08:26braewoodsand can try to customize the kernel heavily
17:08:37braewoodsrealtime kernels are a thing though I've rarely seen a purpose to them
17:09:11braewoodsspeachy: so basically, an ipod touch knockoff?
17:09:44speachyyep. it'll undoubtedly be a good device, but just not what we're clamoring for.
17:10:35speachynot to mention 2 orders of magnitude more oomph and ram than we can use as a DAP.
17:14:04braewoodsspeachy: i discovered mmcx earbuds for the first time.
17:14:05speachynow we can fake real buttons by sectorizing the screen into a display area and a semi-permanent button area, but it still doesn't align with user expectations for such a device.
17:14:19braewoodsinteresting device.
17:14:29braewoodsand they seem to sound better than regular earbuds
17:14:36braewoodseven though they were cheap
17:20:51speachyI wonder if there's any meaningful way to estimate the deployed rockbox userbase.
17:21:27speachy(and the guy I'm talking to at Pine64 uses Rockbox on a clip+)
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18:02:33braewoodsyea.
18:02:42braewoodsafaik you want a simple screen and hardware buttons.
18:02:47braewoodsnot 100% touch screen
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20:40:26speachy__builtin, _bilgus__, let me know if you'd like to be copied on this Pine64 discussion.
20:42:41speachygevaerts, bluebrother, you too. Anyone who's at least semi-active.
20:46:44__builtinI'm totally out of the loop here
20:46:50__builtinwhat's going on?
20:47:31speachybasically, making inquiries about the possibility of a production run of DAPs specifically meant to run rockbox.
20:47:40__builtinah, I see
20:47:48__builtinsure, I'd be interested
20:48:21__builtinthough probably not able to contribute much... IRL things
20:48:44speachyI just don't want to presume that my vision should be treated as gospel. :)
20:50:56speachyin the mean time, if you or anyone else here has suggestions on how to gauge the size of the rockbox userbase, that would help a lot.
20:51:17genevinoreddit /r/rockbox maybe?
20:52:41speachy /r/rockbox has 972 members. :D
20:52:56genevinowell that's not that big :)
20:54:55__builtinspeachy: you run the servers ;)
20:55:10__builtinunique downloaders?
20:55:56speachyyeah, that's going to be some interesting log slicing. Trying to exclude bots will be interesting.
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21:18:17speachy8K, 25K, 3K, ~17K, and 6K unique visitors/month on download, www, build, forums, and themes, respectively.
21:18:53speachy(according to awstats)
21:19:21speachythe forums bounce around a bunch but the rest are pretty consistent.
21:19:28braewoods__builtin: i mentioned it might be worth looking at since it may be better target in terms of Linux kernels
21:19:57braewoodstheir existing pine products are designed to run on mainline kernels which is a major bonus for ARM targets
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21:32:49speachythe conversation so far: https://www.shaftnet.org/~pizza/rb-p64.mbox
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22:42:28braewoodsanyone aware of how exactly to perform a flash based upgrade to iriver h120 device? the old documentation is from like 12 years ago so not sure if it's all still relevant.
22:42:41braewoodsit suggests the original firmware hates CF cards or so
22:54:03efqwto be honest, I think pine64 won't be able to help much with this situation unless we go with the expensive route of having to come up with new plastic molds
22:54:25efqwat that point we might as well start working on software keypads instead
22:55:11efqwa virtual keypad would get a couple of full-touch devices to work as well as the M3K would
22:58:11efqwwhat p64 excels at is their ability to supply LTS hardware, which a typical Chinese DAP vendor usually wouldn't be able to do
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