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#rockbox log for 2020-12-21

00:14:23Dundah__builtin I got one of my backup players up and running and it also suddenly stopped working while trying to build the database
00:14:34DundahI genuinely don't know what I did wrong this time.
00:14:59DundahLike before, I also updated my build to the latest revision.
00:15:56DundahI am insanely frustrated right now
00:17:03Dundahover the course of 5 hours i lost two ZENs
00:17:13DundahIs it truly not a problem with Rockbox now?
00:24:44Dundah Disregard, one of them has resumed working after plugging into the wall.
00:27:33DundahAnd after pressing the reset button, it stopped working. Damn.
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08:47:34Dundah@__
08:47:55Dundah__builtin I left one ZEN unplugged and one ZEN plugged overnight and still no response from either.
08:48:07DundahWill report back in a few weeks when the batteries run dry in an attempt to restart them.
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13:53:15_bilguswhen was the last time we messed with the sansa charging stuff like 2011
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13:56:05_bilgusDundah, If you are 0/2 I'd blame rockbox so hold off before you do anymore try an older releaae like 3.14 when you get them back up
13:56:32_bilgusalso they aren't lost so don't lose hope there
13:57:29speachyhmm. I think some of the stuff I did recently-ish touched on the zens −− I had to fix some stuff in the ramp for the new toolchain
13:59:36_bilgussonds like a hard crash too so even more fun to find
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17:33:24DundahI actually used my third backup right now, but using an older build of Rockbox I had on my PC from 31 December 2019.
17:33:28DundahAbsolutely no issues so far.
17:33:46Dundahfwiw I think when my first ZEN stopped working, the last "good" build I was using was from June 2020 or so.
17:39:23DundahI'm still hopeful they're not completely bricked, since I got one of them partially running last night after God knows what.
17:39:26DundahWe'll see.
17:39:56DundahI still have other backups because I've enjoyed Rockbox so much.
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19:47:52DundahBy the way, I know about the IRC logs, so if something comes up, I can always read about that later.
19:48:00Dundah(Sorry if I'm being a bit too chatty.)
19:50:31_bilgusthey shouldn't be bricked forever there aren't many targets that do that
19:52:30DundahGood to know.
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20:00
20:02:45DundahAny ideas how I could go about getting them back to working order, though?
20:03:00DundahJust for reference, the blue LED doesn't even come on when I plug them into the mains.
20:05:02braewoodsDundah: disconnect the battery?
20:05:27braewoodsthat's one way to force a power cycle
20:05:50braewoodswhat model is this anyway
20:07:12DundahJust the plain ol' Creative ZEN.
20:07:54DundahThe battery is hardwired onto the circuit board (and hidden behind the RF shield, to boot), so it's a nuclear option imo
20:07:57braewoodsit sounds like it has a reset button.
20:08:08braewoodsdoes that do nothing?
20:08:21braewoodswell then you do have another option.
20:08:27braewoodsthe wires are exposed, no?
20:08:40braewoodsyou could introduce your own load to the battery to drain it faster
20:08:41DundahThey do, but pressing them does nothing.
20:08:51DundahHm... not sure if I have anything that could complete the circuit.
20:09:01braewoodsalligator clips are a common choice
20:09:07braewoodsjust be careful that you don't short it
20:09:30braewoodsas for what to use for a load? dunno. i'm not an expert on that.
20:09:33DundahYeah I don't have those either lol
20:09:52DundahDoes that mean I just have to play the waiting game?
20:10:01braewoodsassuming there's even a load
20:10:10braewoodsbut there's no telling how long it would take
20:10:25DundahOne of them was at about half-charge, the other at near-full.
20:10:37braewoodsyou've got a few options
20:10:42DundahAt least according to Rockbox, iirc the ZEN port doesn't have "proper" readings for battery levels yet.
20:10:59braewoodsthe least destructive is to put an external load to drain the battery faster
20:11:28braewoodsthe alternative is to desolder them to break the load circuit to force a reset
20:11:37DundahDon't even think I have any wires lying around.
20:12:03braewoodsiirc, you could probably use a resistor connected to alligator clips to produce a load
20:12:08braewoodsbut i'm not sure how safe that is
20:12:39braewoodshm
20:12:47DundahI was thinking of an LED myself, but I'm not sure if that'd be a very good load.
20:12:47braewoodswell it's your stuff
20:12:50DundahOr very safe, either.
20:13:41braewoodsalligator chips are what people usually use to create temporary circuits
20:13:48braewoodsthey're pretty cheap
20:13:54braewoodsdepending on how thick you need 'em
20:14:28braewoodsyou can find out if it's working by using a multimeter
20:14:36braewoodsone example of a load? a volt meter
20:14:47braewoodsit'll drain some current to display the voltage of the power source
20:15:00braewoodslike 20ma
20:15:01braewoodsiirc
20:15:12braewoodsslow but it's something
20:16:21braewoodsoh that's right most inline volt meters require > 4-5 volts to function
20:16:24braewoodswon't work
20:17:45DundahI guess I could pick up a resistor from the RadioShack near me.
20:18:08braewoodsi thought RS was defunct
20:18:33DundahI live in a rural area, there's one near my apartment.
20:18:58DundahI think it might just be a store with the RadioShack name, but idk
20:19:43DundahIn any case, is there any suggested Ohm for this resistor?
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20:20:06braewoodsi guess it depends how much of a load you intend to apply
20:20:16braewoodsuh
20:20:36braewoodswhat's the original battery's mah?
20:20:45DundahI'm... not very well-versed in this sort of stuff.
20:20:46DundahHm.
20:21:04Dundahhttps://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CreativeZEN
20:21:08braewoodsi do know this much; you don't want it to be too high or else you'll damage the battery or even worse
20:21:15DundahApparently 550 mAh?
20:21:55braewoodsabout 100-200 ma would probably be safe
20:23:42braewoodsok, seems to depend on the battery voltage
20:24:04braewoodsmost lithium batteries range from 2.5V to 4.2V
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20:24:22braewoodsa 25 ohm resistor is a decent starting place i think
20:24:45DundahApparently a 3.7 V battery?
20:24:47braewoodsbut again i don't know how safe it is like this. i've never tried using a resistor to create an artificial load of sorts
20:24:52braewoods3.7V is the "nominal voltage"
20:25:08DundahMan... it's been 6 years since my last physics class haha
20:25:25braewoodsbut
20:25:46braewoods25 to 42 ohms will produce 0.1 amp draw according to this calculator depending on your voltage level
20:25:51braewoodshttps://ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
20:26:07braewoodsno idea what the zen's voltage cutoff point is
20:26:22braewoodsbut you'll probably want to monitor it manually as you do this
20:26:28braewoodsyou don't want it to get too low
20:26:41braewoodsaround 3V is where i'd stop applying your own load
20:26:53braewoodsand let it drain itself the rest of the way
20:27:13braewoodsthen see if you can get it to reset and charge up again
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20:35:17braewoodsDundah: one tip if you need to replace the battery
20:35:51DundahYeah?
20:35:55braewoodsyou could cut the wires, depending on how much slack they have and put connectors on them so you can do this easier in the future
20:36:31braewoodsdepends though
20:36:37braewoodsis it a 2 wire or 3 wire battery?
20:36:51braewoods2 wire is more common
20:36:56Dundah2 wire.
20:37:10braewoodsgood. you got lots of selection there.
20:37:12DundahI don't think they have much slack, they're pretty close to the board iirc
20:37:18braewoodsyea, figures
20:37:40braewoodsjust a good idea to use some kind of socket or connector
20:37:49braewoodsso you don't have to desolder it
20:37:51braewoodsin the future
20:38:27braewoodskinda sad
20:38:41braewoodsthe iriver coldfire ports both have hardware reset buttons so you don't need to do this
20:39:23braewoodsi was working on those targets to get some new bootloaders released
20:39:32DundahNeat.
20:39:49braewoodsV8 was released last month or so
20:40:01braewoodsfixed a lot of issues for the H100 and H300 series
20:41:23braewoodsDundah: these kinds of devices use what are called "pouch cells". you can find them by special numbers that are related to their dimensions.
20:41:33braewoods402040 for example
20:41:37braewoods4mm x 20mm x 40mm
20:42:05braewoodshttps://www.ebay.com/itm/Lipolymer-Rechargeable-3-7V-320mAh-402040-Cell-Lipo-Battery-For-GPS-Speaker
20:42:26braewoodsplay around with the numbers and see what you can find
20:42:48braewoodsbut you need to know how much room your old battery used
20:43:49braewoods(or alternatively how much room you have available)
20:43:59braewoodssome of the larger players can fit a larger battery
20:44:03braewoodsthan stock
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20:52:51braewoodsDundah: anyway do your own research. lithium batteries can be dangerous. i'd probably experiment with a load on weaker batteries first.
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20:54:31braewoodsor use a safety fuse so it'll die instead of something worse
20:54:34braewoods._.
21:00
21:00:38DundahI think I'll just play the waiting game, for my own safety.
21:01:21braewoodsok fair enough
21:01:41DundahNot sure how long it will take for the batteries to become sufficiently "dry", though.
21:08:59braewoodsone small tip though you might find useful
21:09:21braewoodsyou can buy usb power meters; these can be useful for seeing what your device is doing when connected to power
21:09:51braewoodsi've used it to see if it's charging or otherwise shows signs of life
21:10:28braewoodsrelatively high current usually suggests battery charging
21:11:07braewoodsand it can be used for a lot of different purposes
21:17:20DundahHm... not sure how often I'duse it, but it does sound like something that would be nice to have around.
21:49:00_bilgusif the name of the game is faster discharge the put it in the refrigerator
21:49:20_bilgusat 10c the capacity is nearly halved
21:49:35_bilgusdon't freeze them though
21:50:59_bilgusat 4.7 v a 1/2 watt 47 ohm resistor should just barely be adequate
21:51:54_bilgusI'd probably go for 100 ohm 1/2 watt resistor TBH
21:52:19_bilgusbut waiting game is fine too just put it in the cheese drawer
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21:55:22_bilgusafter my first clip+ broke I actually put the leads to a screw connector so I could load test the running current and the fuze+ when it kept hard locking after the first time of wating 24 hrs it did it again so I desoldered it wasn't waiting a day between tests
21:55:44_bilgusI wasn't rather
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22:01:02DundahI heard about the freezing game before for li-ion batteries haha
22:01:37DundahWould it be safe for me to stick 'em in the fridge overnight, then let them thaw while I work tomorrow?
22:02:15mendel_munkisoh that's why sticking things in the freezer overnight sometimes fixes them.
22:07:34speachyone of the reasons, anyway
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22:51:15DundahStuck 'em in the fridge just now. Hope it works out tomorrow night.
22:51:20DundahThanks for the help.
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23:10:04_bilgusI'm not sure what happens if you freeze them solid but I was more worried about condensation in the device after
23:11:05_bilgusI mean the ones in my tools sit outside in those temps but they also get cycled so warm up..
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