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| 05:08:28 | bluebrother | _bilgus: not really. You could demote them to unstable or unusable, but that would also apply to release builds. In Rockbox Utiltiy you can make a target disabled, so it doesn't show up anymore, but that requires changing rbutil.ini. That's intended for unfinished implementations (f.e. ipod6g was a disabled target for long, since you could install Rockbox, just the bootloader was missing.) Both not |
| 05:08:34 | bluebrother | really what you're looking for afaiu. |
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| 05:34:44 | gsora | the vintage ipod bug got me, i'm thinking about getting one and rockbox-ing it - not a 5g or 5.5g though, what's the best device? I was thinking 4g bw one, but the wiki page isn't particularly clear about the port status |
| 05:39:20 | bluebrother | ipods generally work pretty well and are considered stable. 1g and 2g aren't too common so might have some issues. Ipod Video doesn't have support for video out. |
| 05:39:48 | bluebrother | I'm using a mini since years and it's pretty stable for me. Though the mini is slightly smaller :) |
| 05:40:11 | bluebrother | people tend to mod those old Ipods with SD adapters these days, those can be problematic. |
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| 05:42:12 | gsora | i was just looking at minis, the coolness factor is over the top with this ones |
| 05:43:43 | gsora | the bw screen on these ones is gorgeous, I remember having a rockboxed 160gb 7th gen with bw theme/font :-) |
| 05:43:51 | gsora | bluebrother is yours a 1st or 2nd gen? |
| 05:44:56 | bluebrother | if you're interested in such a mod make sure to check the forum thread first. |
| 05:45:02 | bluebrother | 2g. |
| 05:45:15 | bluebrother | also modded with a CF card. Works without any issues for me. |
| 05:45:47 | gsora | i wonder if it's able to play opus |
| 05:45:58 | gsora | oh for sure, i'll search for the thread rn |
| 05:46:10 | bluebrother | https://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,52561.0.html |
| 05:46:50 | bluebrother | but the CF mod is a lot older and I had never issues with that (or heard about major issues with it, unlike the SD adapter mods) |
| 05:48:03 | gsora | with "CF mod" you're referring to replacing the microdrive with a standard cf card? |
| 05:49:38 | bluebrother | yes |
| 05:50:35 | gsora | great |
| 05:53:09 | gsora | oh, found a 6gb mini in mint conditions for a reasonable price... is this my lucky day? :-) |
| 05:54:21 | bluebrother | maybe? ;-) |
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| 05:56:02 | gsora | i wonder if someone really buys those boxed ipods for 1k€ |
| 05:56:34 | bluebrother | ok, just tried with todays build: opus works fine even up to 256k (with the opus files from download.rockbox.org/test_files) |
| 05:56:56 | bluebrother | my old build did skip on the 256k one every 10ish seconds. |
| 05:59:03 | gsora | this is great news |
| 05:59:15 | gsora | don't plan on listening to high-res stuff on mine |
| 05:59:46 | bluebrother | boost a lot with 256k though, and the ui feels a bit sluggish. |
| 06:00 |
| 06:00:07 | bluebrother | 75MHz CPU for that file. |
| 06:00:17 | gsora | try with 64k |
| 06:00:38 | gsora | shouldn't be that much difference quality-wise iirc |
| 06:01:09 | bluebrother | forgot the 64k file. But 128k ends up at 66MHz. |
| 06:05:46 | bluebrother | 64k is pretty much the same. UI feels somewhat sluggish. |
| 06:05:54 | gsora | huh |
| 06:06:03 | gsora | well i guess it will be good enough for my use |
| 06:06:18 | gsora | wow i just found an ebay seller with many pods, good prices too it seems |
| 06:06:19 | bluebrother | well, the CPU goes up to 80 MHz, so doesn't really surprise me if decoding already uses ~70MHz. |
| 06:06:43 | bluebrother | especially compared to the typical ogg files I'm using, which seem to end up somewhere at 35MHz CPU :) |
| 06:07:35 | gsora | looks like i'll stick with theora :D |
| 06:08:00 | bluebrother | nah, too open. Use something more obscure and proprietary! |
| 06:08:41 | gsora | time for some alac |
| 06:09:41 | bluebrother | wma! |
| 06:09:44 | * | bluebrother hides |
| 06:10:40 | gsora | noooooooo |
| 06:11:51 | gsora | proposal sent |
| 06:12:26 | gsora | i might bring back some c skillz too to fix bugs in the future, who knows |
| 06:14:26 | bluebrother | oh, you're shopping for c skillz? :P |
| 06:17:44 | bluebrother | scnr :) |
| 06:20:08 | gsora | Hahaha |
| 06:20:11 | gsora | Don’t we all? |
| 06:20:36 | bluebrother | some people do in one way or another. Some people don't care about computers :) |
| 06:21:30 | gsora | They’re missing out! |
| 06:21:47 | gsora | Thanks for your opus bench bluebrother |
| 06:27:25 | bluebrother | sure thing, you're welcome. Though I only looked at the numbers the buffering thread shows :) |
| 07:00 |
| 07:08:38 | gsora | won the auction \o/ |
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| 10:25:19 | saratoga | the opus fft needs some work on arm, the non-power-of-2 length means we couldn't use the normal fft which is all assembly |
| 10:29:22 | speachy | a while back bilgus did a rebase of our opus code to then-current upstream; is this something that upstream might have improved? |
| 10:30:44 | speachy | IIRC he never merged it because it was a slight overall performance regression (under 1% on the targets/files we were using at the time) |
| 10:31:45 | speachy | (this would have been mid-late 2019, I think) |
| 10:32:11 | speachy | https://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/c/rockbox/+/2057 |
| 10:32:15 | speachy | make that Jan 2019 |
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| 10:41:08 | saratoga | speachy: looks like they added a NEON FFT, but that won't help us on ARMv4/v5 |
| 10:41:22 | saratoga | i have some profiling data somewhere, the fft was the big hot spot |
| 10:42:40 | saratoga | so i don't think they'll be much difference until that is fixed, and upstream probably isn't going to get optimizations for some 25 year old ARM cores at this point :) |
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| 10:45:12 | braewoods | saratoga: is there some way to bring it up to a power of 2? |
| 10:45:24 | braewoods | e.g., pad it with data or something |
| 10:45:33 | saratoga | no, the codec does not use power of 2 transforms by design |
| 10:45:48 | braewoods | i see. |
| 10:46:10 | braewoods | so what do you need? a FFT that works with arbitrary sizes? |
| 10:47:11 | saratoga | fixed point and non-power of 2 sizes |
| 10:47:36 | saratoga | i don't think the one they have is bad, but usually these have to be scheduled manually in assembly to get good performance |
| 10:47:50 | saratoga | theres usually also some scope for optimization when you dig into the transform |
| 10:47:59 | saratoga | algorithmic optimization |
| 10:48:19 | braewoods | maybe there's an FFT from some library we could use |
| 10:48:54 | braewoods | if it matters that much, there may be an implementation that already exists |
| 10:49:15 | braewoods | it could probably be adapted to rockbox |
| 10:50:07 | saratoga | i don't think so |
| 10:50:33 | saratoga | for the other codecs we actually spent a lot of time adapting the ffmpeg one to fixed point and then optimizing it |
| 10:50:52 | braewoods | so we need a new FFT in asm? |
| 10:51:10 | saratoga | for the more common power of 2 case there was only the libtremor fft (IIRC) and we used that for a long time before coming up with a faster one |
| 10:51:20 | saratoga | https://git.rockbox.org/cgit/rockbox.git/tree/lib/rbcodec/codecs/libopus/celt/kiss_fft.c#n506 |
| 10:51:58 | braewoods | i see |
| 10:52:06 | saratoga | the fft works by factorizing the problem into smaller ffts of shorter length, so depending on the transform size the codec is using some of those factors are called a lot more than others |
| 10:52:12 | saratoga | so ideally you'd want to optimize those |
| 10:52:24 | braewoods | isn't opus already pretty fast? |
| 10:52:29 | saratoga | i should dig up the numbers from back in 2013 when i started digging into this |
| 10:52:55 | saratoga | i have a breakdown of how often each factor was used |
| 10:52:55 | speachy | (that gerrit ticket has benchmarks on clip+ and fuze+ (armv4/v5, respectively) |
| 10:53:07 | speachy | no wait, clip+ is v5 nm |
| 10:53:18 | braewoods | i assume armv4 is the earlier PP? |
| 10:53:43 | speachy | yeah, IIRC our only v4 targets are all PPs |
| 10:53:48 | speachy | (actually v4t) |
| 10:55:21 | saratoga | huh no arm4v benchmarks on the codec performance wiki page |
| 10:55:29 | speachy | the PP500x targets are IMO too pathological performance-wise to really care about, but the 502x should be good. |
| 10:55:35 | saratoga | i would just do armv4 |
| 10:56:05 | saratoga | armv5 has some neat stuff added, but its too much work to refactor for such a small gain |
| 10:56:27 | saratoga | the 16 bit multiply instructions in particular |
| 11:00 |
| 11:02:10 | speachy | hmm. it makes sense to redo that whole page using current builds with the gcc 4.9 toolchain |
| 11:02:53 | speachy | so we have an accurate baseline for further work (eg the optimization flag revisiting that's long overdue..) |
| 11:05:11 | saratoga | for the main codecs the optimization flags shouldn't make too much difference since they spend so much time in the MDCT/FFT code, and that is all one library mostly in assembly (although MIPS is another story...) |
| 11:05:20 | saratoga | for weird codecs who knows |
| 11:05:40 | braewoods | speachy: any further talk on the pine stuff? |
| 11:06:15 | saratoga | that reminds me, i really need to find time to get back to https://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11759 |
| 11:06:18 | speachy | my motivation behind the compile flags isn't so much ekeing out more/extra performance but to simpilfy things; get everything using the same global settings except where absolutely necessary. |
| 11:06:32 | saratoga | that was pretty close to working when i got distracted and for mp3 should make a large difference |
| 11:07:13 | speachy | braewoods: no further developments on either side. I've had a PineCube for a month or so now, plus a few more V3s developer boards that are a bit more practical to work with |
| 11:07:29 | braewoods | ok. |
| 11:07:30 | speachy | still need to pick up suitable screens and batteries for both |
| 11:07:52 | braewoods | i saw a usb controlled screen that vocore2 was demoing but i think it's too big |
| 11:08:02 | braewoods | https://vocore.io/screen.html |
| 11:08:02 | speachy | but $dayjob qas a lot more demanding of my time and I needed to be away from code tinkering for my what passes for my mental health. |
| 11:08:37 | speachy | the pinecube should be fully mainline supported (by linux) as of 5.10 |
| 11:08:53 | speachy | IIRC u-boot has everything needed too in their git master but no release yet |
| 11:08:59 | braewoods | didn't you want to make a native RB port for it at some point? |
| 11:09:12 | braewoods | if nothing else maybe this can turn into a DIY rockbox port for people. |
| 11:10:03 | braewoods | not the most space optimal but i guess it's something |
| 11:10:13 | speachy | yes I do, but given that we actualyl have full sources for this thing and the ability to completely define our own rootfs, a hosted port could be pretty darn kick-ass |
| 11:10:27 | speachy | (ie not having to hack around questionable OF decisions) |
| 11:11:03 | braewoods | how good are 3d printed cases and such? |
| 11:11:11 | speachy | you get what you pay for. :D |
| 11:11:18 | braewoods | so they utterly suck |
| 11:11:20 | braewoods | lol |
| 11:11:35 | speachy | yes and no; they only make sense for small-volume (and/or high-margin) stuff |
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| 11:11:55 | braewoods | which this would probably be |
| 11:12:12 | braewoods | either way, having the software system developed might make this an easier sell to pine |
| 11:12:16 | speachy | IMO the economics don't make sense if we can't reuse an existing case |
| 11:12:29 | speachy | (I think pine shares that opinion) |
| 11:12:53 | braewoods | fastest way is to do a hosted port for now |
| 11:12:56 | braewoods | native would take longer |
| 11:13:28 | braewoods | what would be a suitable battery? a rechargeable pouch cell? |
| 11:13:46 | braewoods | i'd probably want to use 18650 cells during development simply due to better safety |
| 11:13:50 | braewoods | or |
| 11:13:55 | braewoods | another chemistry |
| 11:14:04 | speachy | for the boards I already have? Sompething that physically plugs into the existing connector. |
| 11:14:06 | braewoods | nimh or so if you don't need to develop the charging |
| 11:14:16 | braewoods | what kind of connector do theyu se |
| 11:14:26 | speachy | they arelady have an AXP192 PMIC that handles all of the charging stuff. |
| 11:14:41 | braewoods | so probably a pouch cell |
| 11:14:43 | speachy | I don't recall offhand. Pine suggested one |
| 11:15:07 | braewoods | well from what i've seen of mobile batteries |
| 11:15:11 | speachy | the other board ("V3S Cherry Pi") might be a standard 0.1" pitch header. |
| 11:15:19 | braewoods | we'd either want one a pouch cell with a JST connector or |
| 11:15:27 | braewoods | one of those cell phone type batteries |
| 11:15:34 | braewoods | better if we can reuse an existing type |
| 11:16:08 | speachy | the final form factor will determine the battey used. Otherwise one LiPo cell is the same as any other, slight chemistry differences notwithstanding |
| 11:16:51 | braewoods | indeed |
| 11:17:07 | braewoods | i've been learning to build my own battery packs |
| 11:17:45 | braewoods | 18650 cells are pretty versatile |
| 11:18:11 | speachy | I have a 18650 cell holder with a .1" header somewhere |
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| 11:19:47 | speachy | my time lately has been spent on non-software projects. |
| 11:21:34 | speachy | screen-wise I intend to pick up a cheapie 4-5" QVGA lcd with a standard 40-pin connector. |
| 11:22:43 | speachy | (ie use the SoC's LCD controller, and QVGA is the most likely target for an actual player screen) |
| 11:23:05 | braewoods | TN? |
| 11:23:06 | braewoods | IPS? |
| 11:23:11 | speachy | "cheap" |
| 11:23:16 | braewoods | so TN |
| 11:23:24 | braewoods | for final product maybe could use IPS |
| 11:23:32 | braewoods | but then |
| 11:23:33 | speachy | actual TN/IPS is an implementation detail that doesn't matter from the SoC's perspective. |
| 11:23:50 | braewoods | people don't normally care about the screen on these |
| 11:24:08 | braewoods | IPS' main benefit is more viewing angle |
| 11:24:18 | speachy | IPS's superior viewing angle is all we'd care about in this context |
| 11:24:31 | braewoods | for development kinda irrelevant |
| 11:25:11 | braewoods | does RB support 24-bit screens? |
| 11:25:16 | braewoods | or just 16-bit color? |
| 11:25:54 | braewoods | also occurred to me... this port might have enough resources to do video decoding if one were inclined to write the code for that |
| 11:26:18 | braewoods | does the pinecube has video acceleration? |
| 11:26:19 | speachy | yep, it can handle 24bpp, but that's wasted on our typical screens. |
| 11:26:45 | speachy | there's a full GPU on the V3/V3s SoC, but we'd not use it as anything other than a dumb framebuffer. |
| 11:26:57 | braewoods | ah |
| 11:27:15 | speachy | (unless we want to completely rewrite our UI layer to take advantage of HW compositing) |
| 11:27:35 | braewoods | probably not |
| 11:27:38 | speachy | (which admittedly isn't as hard as it first sounds sine that's how it already works internally) |
| 11:29:09 | braewoods | i'd probably want to use external SD card for pretty much everything |
| 11:29:17 | braewoods | easily removeable battery |
| 11:29:31 | braewoods | just make it easy to repair stuff that is guaranteed to wear out from use |
| 11:29:37 | speachy | anyway. gotta scoot.. groceries to buy and a car part that's holding up reassembly of my main project for the week |
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