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#rockbox log for 2021-01-18

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11:50:33 Join FroggestSpirit [0] (18c0819f@d192-24-159-129.try.wideopenwest.com)
11:53:01FroggestSpiritI've seen a thread or two about porting rockbox to an ESP32, I kind of wanted to discuss the plausibility of it. I've got a couple ESP32 chips, I believe they can use PSRAM of 8MB, which should be suitable. I think they can also use external flash. Also, espessif just announced a new model, which seems even better, esp32-s3. My main concerns are
11:53:01FroggestSpiritgood battery life
11:55:19FroggestSpiritI feel like microcontrollers are getting to the point where they can be viable for rockbox, but I'm not sure if they would be better off than existing players. What's currenlty the best rockboxable player in terms of power consumption?
11:58:06 Join sam33 [0] (516fde27@cpc145672-oxfd28-2-0-cust550.4-3.cable.virginm.net)
11:58:59speachyit should be fast enough, 8MB of RAM is also sufficient.
11:59:52speachykeep in mind that PSRAM is rather slow; you're going to have to play some games to keep the hot code paths in on-chip RAM.
12:00
12:00:10 Part sam33
12:00:13braewoodspseudo static RAM?
12:00:57speachyaka DRAM with built-in refresh
12:01:05speachy(interfaces like SRAM too)
12:01:23braewoodsFroggestSpirit: assuming you succeed, how would you handle all the inputs?
12:01:36braewoodsthis appears to be a single chip and not a final solution so to speak
12:01:38speachythe PSRAM itself is reasonably quick, but the bottleneck is the external bus connecting it to the microcontroller.
12:02:06braewoodsthere's no case, etc
12:02:24braewoodsusability would be limited if you don't solve that
12:02:27FroggestSpiritI've designed a few PCB's before, I haven't done one with ESP32 yet, but I've interfaced a Teensy 4.0 with buttons, LCD and SD slot to work as a gameboy emulator
12:03:07 Join calebccff [0] (~calebconn@vps-9af1a2c0.vps.ovh.net)
12:03:08calebccffIt'd awesome to build an ESP32 powered open source/hardware mp3 player lol
12:03:24braewoodscalebccff: web stalker I presume?
12:03:27braewoodslol
12:03:53braewoodsalso... using an OVH VPS. makes me think you're using it as a tunnel.
12:03:56braewoodslol
12:04:11FroggestSpiritI havent worked with a screen on ESP32 yet, but I've used the STM7789 on raspberry pi and teensy, which is a small 240x240 lcd
12:04:36braewoodsFroggestSpirit: maybe you can cut a makeshift case out of existing project boxes
12:04:37calebccffbraewoods: I run a matrix server and use an IRC bridge with a bot there, so I always get IRC backlogs, and pings and such
12:04:47braewoodsi see
12:04:54speachyyou'll have to port the low-level kernel/startup/threading code over to the ESP of course.
12:04:59FroggestSpiritI have a 3D printer I'd probably use for a case
12:05:19calebccffFroggestSpirit: I have an ipod classic modded with an sdcard adapter and a 2200mah battery and it nets me ~75 hours playback in rockbox
12:05:20speachyI'd personally advocate for a higher-end STM32 part with real DRAM, but I'm biased.
12:05:31calebccffI reckon there's room for improvement on tweaking clock speeds on the classic
12:06:39FroggestSpiritI'm open to different processors, although I also want to try porting a couple of codecs/players over. I listen to a lot of videogame music in native formats, so VGMstream would be a godsend to have
12:06:45calebccffspeachy: rockbox on teensy4?
12:07:10calebccffCrap that thing is like 3x faster than an ipod
12:07:22speachya lot of the "native format" players rely heavily on floating point.
12:07:28FroggestSpiritTeensy 4.1 allows for PSRAM of 8MB, but built in RAM is around 1MB tops
12:07:49braewoodsFroggestSpirit: we were considering a partnership with Pine Microsystems. They have development boards of interest.
12:08:05FroggestSpiritHow's the power consumption on them?
12:08:16braewoodsNot sure. Which ones did you get speachy?
12:08:34speachybraewoods: they sent me a PineCube. I also have a couple of so-called "CherryPi" boards.
12:08:47braewoodsi see.
12:08:55FroggestSpiritI got a python front-end running most of the music formats I like running on Raspberry pi zero, but ditched it after finding out it drew about 5x the power of my phone playing music
12:08:56calebccff:o aw dude a pin64 rockbox powered music player now we're talking!
12:09:17speachythe latter has a Allwinner V3, the latter the V3s. Only difference between them is the physical package and onboard RAM size (the latter is QFN and has 64MB; the former is BGA and 128MB)
12:09:42braewoodsmore than we could ever use
12:09:44FroggestSpiritis this a good option? http://www.ingenic.com.cn/en/?newton/id/12.html
12:09:50braewoodsmost targets have 32MB
12:10:16braewoodsno idea. it's not loading.
12:11:16speachywell, it's just a bare CPU+RAM module; another PCB with all of the I/O, including audio, would need to be made.
12:11:40braewoodsbuttons could be handled as basic GPIO signals i presume
12:11:51speachythe big sticking point for the pine64 thing is the availabiltiy of a suitable existnig case.
12:12:17braewoodsindeed.
12:12:39braewoodsi wouldn't mind reusing an older one like the iriver h100
12:12:42braewoodsthat case is great
12:12:51 Join saratoga [0] (620acd42@cpe-98-10-205-66.rochester.res.rr.com)
12:12:52braewoodsplenty of room
12:13:00speachyalso pwoer consumption is a bit of a red herring; with modern SoCs the analog (ie audio and power supply) paths are by far the thirstiest chunks.
12:13:15saratogaslow memory isn't usually a problem
12:13:35saratogathe older rockbox targets (e.g. ipods) have extremely slow DRAM (and cache)
12:13:39speachythat's why (eg) the xDuoo X3 saw almost no power consumption improvement with the CPU (and internal busses) reclocked way down vs running them flat-out.
12:13:41braewoodsi just figured ARM is a better choice for cost reasons; there's tons of these things
12:13:49FroggestSpiritI know I have a 3D printer to make stuff, but nothing beats the feel of a premium case. I got a cheap $10 player on amazon, but it was one of those actions AK2117D chips, 8-bit and not suitable from what I read
12:14:01speachysaratoga: yeah, but the older ipods also can't handle modern codecs either.
12:14:07saratogasure they can
12:14:19saratogaunless you mean AAC-HE, but that isn't due to memory
12:14:26speachy(or rather, they barely can..)
12:14:42speachy(I'm talking raw CPU oompth on those things, not RAM)
12:14:43braewoodshm
12:15:03braewoodsi wonder if you can buy cases prebuilt with just what you'd need for a RB board
12:15:12saratogathe bigger issue is that you're picking a device that isn't arm, mips or CF, so expect a lot of work optimizing things
12:15:16speachy8MB is plenty of RAM physically, but you're not going to want to run code out of PSRAM because it will greatly recuce the effective clock speed of the CPU.
12:15:43speachy(at least not hot code and things like the framebuffer)
12:16:18speachy(IIRC the PSRAM on the ESP32 can only run at 10s of MHz across a serial bus)
12:16:52saratogai'd strongly recommend picking an arm device though
12:16:57speachyyeah
12:17:01saratogaotherwise that is a lot of extra work
12:17:12saratogaplus i spent 10 years optimizing all the codecs for arm
12:17:17speachygranted modern ARM is still going to be a bit of work vs what we have today.
12:17:22saratoga(with lots of help from other people)
12:17:42FroggestSpiritWasn't there a port to the Ingenic  X1000E processor?
12:18:34speachyoh, one other catch about the PSRAM −− at least on the older ESP32 units, there was only 4MB of PSRAM possible; anything more than that had to be accessed via a banking strategy. Don't know if the new -s3 models changed that.
12:18:53saratogathe other thing to consider is if the system is actually designed for battery power (e.g. does it have efficient switching regulators and low voltage parts)
12:18:57speachyFroggestSpirit: yes and no; all of Rockbox's X1000 targets are running on top of Linux.
12:19:51saratogathe actual amount of CPU power you need is very low (maybe average clock speed of 40 MHz on an ARM9 core), so the ability of the system to throttle down to very low power states is critical
12:20:13*speachy nods.
12:20:15FroggestSpiritI've messed around with bare metal on raspberry pi (ported the same gameboy emulator to it), but those things kind of suck with power consumption
12:20:58speachythe RPi's SoC is ... rather crappy. it's really a GPU with barely enough CPU to keep it fed bolted onto the side.
12:22:31FroggestSpiritWould 40Mhz be good enough for beefy MIDI playback? I've written a player for NDS music (similar to midi). I'm not sure if it may be the slow memory it read from, but it almost ran full speed on ESP32 (240Mhz)
12:23:34saratogai'm not sure about MIDI, I never looked at it in rockbox
12:23:38FroggestSpiritI also have a nano pi air, haven't done too much with it, but it's got 8gb of space built in
12:23:44speachydepends on how many channels, the sampling rate, mixing quality, etc etc
12:23:44saratogamost of the video game codecs are quite fast however
12:24:13FroggestSpiritI think my issue was pumping the DS music out at 48khz lol
12:25:32FroggestSpiritWhat are the recommendations for players nowadays though? I've had my eye on the Fiio M3k, it looks like the port made some good progress
12:26:21speachyhonestly I'd avoid it for the time being. recent discoveries mean that progress will probably pick back up a bit but the underlying platform is such a horrid mess.
12:26:34braewoodsi'd usually stick to older stuff for now
12:26:46braewoodsi improved the h100 and h300 ports though
12:26:58braewoodsupdated the bootloaders for the next major release
12:27:08speachythe other x1000 targets (xduoo x3ii, eros q / k and clones) are usable on a daily driver basis.
12:27:30speachyoh, also the agptek rocker, if you can find one.
12:28:38FroggestSpiritwhich of those would you say have the best battery life? I was reading up on the thread of the agptek rocker, it's battery life seemed a bit sub par
12:29:13speachythey're all relatively crappy. I don't recall the Rocker's life, but the other ingenic ones seemed to be in the 10-12h range.
12:29:40FroggestSpiritI'm guessing that's due to running it ontop of linux?
12:30:26speachyyes, but only in the sense that very little effort has gone into trying to optimize that.
12:30:45speachy(and things like the various codecs etc not really having any MIPS optmimization)
12:31:07FroggestSpiritBare metal would probably be ideal (as well as being a lot of effort) but I wonder if buildroot could optimize any of it
12:31:13saratogayeah lack of mips optimization is annoying
12:31:29braewoodsfortunately you don't see mips too often from what i can tell
12:31:31saratogaa lot of those boutique players have really high idle drain though
12:31:33braewoodsi've mainly seen it in routers
12:31:34speachydoing a native X1000 port is high on my personal wishlist.
12:33:08speachyit's not a crazy amount of work either, and the X1000 fixed some of the worst quirks of the jz47xx
12:33:09FroggestSpiritI used to use rockbox as a daily driver on Ipod Nano, then Ipod Video back in the day
12:34:07FroggestSpiritI wonder if that's compatable with the X1000E, it looks like that Halley2 module is nice
12:34:29speachythe 'E' has double the RAM, otherwise they're identical.
12:34:39speachy(ie 64 vs 32MB)
12:35:23FroggestSpiritI just seen a second ago. 32MB is pretty generous anyways
12:36:45speachyit's plenty for rockbox, though ironically for the Linux-based port, we only have ~8MB of usable RAM to play with due to the overhead of the OS and everyting else it has running
12:37:49speachythe M3K is the only one tha seems to hve the x1000e and extra RAM, but the kernel/etc is so badly hacked up that it's a nightmare to work on
12:38:52FroggestSpiritisn't the M3K kernel open sourced?
12:39:20speachynominally. but the sources they released don't correspond to the actual kernel they're shipping.
12:40:00speachytheir player uses raw custom ioctls to muck with things instead of standard linux APIs.
12:40:42speachyto switch USB mode we have to load/unload modules manually..
12:41:09speachythey export something like a dozen different audio controls, of which only one or two actually are hooked up on that hardware
12:41:27FroggestSpirituhh.. wow
12:41:43braewoodsspeachy: sounds like like HD audio codecs in x86 PCs
12:41:46speachywe have to do a custom ioctl to power down or restart
12:42:16braewoodssometimes need manual mappings on a per board basis for them to work
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12:43:29speachyI do need to see what's changed between the 1.4.3 and recent 1.4.5 update.
12:43:40speachynot very hopeful.
12:44:07FroggestSpiritIs there a good place on the forums to look for this? If I get the M3K, I wouldn't mind poking around
12:44:51speachythere's a thread in the new ports forum
12:45:07speachyand some long discussions in the IRC logs
12:45:47speachythe big discovery recently is that FiiO just used the stock ingenic signing key for their firmware updates so generating our own images is now technically feasible.
12:46:40FroggestSpiritDo they have some recovery method? that way it isn't bricked as easily?
12:47:43speachydon't recall.
12:48:57speachy(most of my attention went into beefing up the other X1000 targets)
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12:57:00braewoodsi'm probably going to expand the USB core to include more OTG stuff in time
12:57:04braewoodsfor the native ports anyway
12:57:14braewoodsright now got other stuff to deal with
12:57:34braewoodsMTP and Audio are possibilities but MTP is higher priority
12:57:41braewoodssince more targets can use it
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13:12:34speachypinged the folks selling Hifiwalker H2s on ebay, asking if they could tell me the firwmare version they contain
13:16:20 Join lebellium [0] (~lebellium@89-92-69-66.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
13:16:35speachyjohnb: Do I recall you saying you took apart your H2?
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13:29:13saratogaMTP would be neat
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16:32:05johnb7speachy : yes, but so far I ony took the back side off. I need to disassemble it further and take more pictures. This is however the one with FW 1.2. the one with fw 1.3 I will probably sell again.
16:33:04johnb7As for Ebay offers, I asked somebody who bought his in June on Amazon. It had already 1.3 on it.
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16:47:57speachyI want positive confirmation before I make an offer though
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20:42:14speachysweet, one came back with v1.3
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