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| 07:09:22 | speachy | huh, the ipod6g with the shutdown issue has an ssd that claims to support ATA power management. |
| 07:11:30 | speachy | identifies itself as "CF card" |
| 07:15:51 | speachy | I suspect the fix is still to disable power management commands, but we'll need a different heuristic. |
| 07:32:23 | speachy | the backlight shouldn't block anything... |
| 07:45:39 | braewoods | speachy: it sounds more and more like these pretend CF cards don't properly implement ATA |
| 07:46:00 | braewoods | i've never seen issues like this with true CF cards |
| 07:46:55 | speachy | no idea. |
| 07:46:57 | braewoods | i wonder if we could use the same approach the LK uses |
| 07:47:06 | speachy | and that is? |
| 07:47:25 | braewoods | lists of devices known to not do something properly to disable stuff selectively |
| 07:47:35 | braewoods | they use hard-coded tables for crap like this |
| 07:48:03 | speachy | (I tossed out a build that completely disables power management in the ipod6g's ata driver to see if that will matter) |
| 07:48:21 | braewoods | if the iFlash adapters identify themselves in the ATA info we could selectively enable workaronds |
| 07:48:54 | braewoods | assuming no better solution is found |
| 07:49:03 | speachy | there's a _lot_ of stuff out there that uses the same ATA->SD chipset not made by iflash. |
| 07:49:20 | braewoods | i know. |
| 07:49:36 | braewoods | but should we punish everyone by disabling PM? |
| 07:49:39 | speachy | nothing consistent I can use to generate a heuristic yet |
| 07:49:56 | braewoods | or here's an idea |
| 07:50:04 | braewoods | would making it a menu option workaround be viable? |
| 07:50:49 | braewoods | that way we can let the user choose what they want to use |
| 07:57:23 | braewoods | speachy: oh, this user on forums. they're using the extensions I added to disk info? |
| 07:59:08 | braewoods | ... wow a bit of an attitude this one has |
| 07:59:10 | braewoods | o.O |
| 08:00 |
| 08:04:51 | speachy | I mean, not much I can do when my ISP has a major outage. heh. |
| 08:10:28 | speachy | I'm loathe to add a menu option for this but.. might be prudent. |
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| 08:31:53 | braewoods | speachy: simplest option without adding a ton of dynamic code heuristics |
| 08:32:10 | braewoods | making it user selectable, defaulting to whichever is better for stability |
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| 08:48:52 | speachy | hmm.. another possibility |
| 08:49:00 | speachy | we don't actually ever issue a FLUSH CACHE command |
| 08:56:02 | braewoods | speachy: doesn't sound like something we need to do normally |
| 08:56:05 | braewoods | but |
| 08:56:09 | speachy | when going to sleep? |
| 08:56:14 | braewoods | yea probably a good idea |
| 08:56:17 | speachy | exactly |
| 08:56:23 | braewoods | or shutdown |
| 08:56:29 | braewoods | we can combine with a timeout |
| 08:56:30 | speachy | I think with spinning rust it's sort of implied |
| 08:56:32 | braewoods | or wait period |
| 08:56:35 | speachy | that when you sleep you flush things |
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| 08:57:07 | braewoods | doesn't matter for any read buffers |
| 08:57:07 | speachy | but god knows what these wonky CF/SD adapters actually implement |
| 08:57:16 | braewoods | one way to find out |
| 08:57:24 | braewoods | the scientific method :D |
| 08:58:41 | braewoods | speachy: wouldn't it be funny if the problem was due to us forgetting to perform the ATA equivalent of fflush? |
| 09:00 |
| 09:01:10 | speachy | huh, typo in the ATA-8 specification. |
| 09:01:53 | braewoods | from the spec it sounds like this should be safe to issue on all targets before we're preparing to shutdown or so |
| 09:02:45 | speachy | it was added in ATA-4 |
| 09:03:14 | braewoods | so if the device advertises support for it we should probably use it sometimes |
| 09:03:49 | speachy | another possibility is to completely disable powersaving stuff for anything that identifies itself as a CF card. |
| 09:03:59 | speachy | (or CFA-compliant, more accurately..) |
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| 09:04:18 | braewoods | via that bit I added to disk info? |
| 09:04:29 | speachy | dunno. Just going by the spec here |
| 09:04:50 | braewoods | I added those checks mostly as some extra info for users. |
| 09:04:54 | speachy | all of the dumps I have from the SD->CF thingeys advertise themselves as such |
| 09:05:04 | braewoods | you mean as |
| 09:05:21 | braewoods | CF compatible, not Fixed, Removeable? |
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| 09:05:39 | braewoods | that's what real CF cards do, most of the time |
| 09:05:41 | speachy | 0x848a in the first word of the identify info |
| 09:05:49 | speachy | also bit 2 of word 83 |
| 09:05:56 | speachy | (treated as equivalent in the spec) |
| 09:06:02 | braewoods | I see. |
| 09:06:17 | braewoods | I know some things cared about the fixed bit and such |
| 09:06:40 | braewoods | maybe we should look at what Linux does for CF cards connected to an IDE bus |
| 09:06:51 | speachy | but, heh, CFA also mandates SLEEP support. :D |
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| 09:07:11 | braewoods | let's not disable PM just yet |
| 09:07:23 | braewoods | last resort in my book |
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| 09:07:34 | speachy | (this is the iflash-quad-on-ipod-video issue, not the lcd stuck-on on the 6g) |
| 09:07:42 | braewoods | i know |
| 09:07:48 | braewoods | ATA should have nothing to do with the LCD issue |
| 09:08:23 | speachy | actually I suspect the lcd-stuck-on might be entirely due to LCD settings; maybe the user configured it to stay on permanently, and the shutdown code can't handle that. |
| 09:08:38 | braewoods | well during shutdown we should turn it off anyway |
| 09:09:01 | speachy | but −− the lcd isn't shut down until after the disk is shut down. |
| 09:09:02 | braewoods | assuming that's even the issue |
| 09:09:11 | speachy | and that can block forever |
| 09:09:29 | braewoods | well at least until the battery dies |
| 09:09:31 | braewoods | :D |
| 09:09:40 | speachy | or our sun engulfs the planet |
| 09:09:51 | braewoods | lol |
| 09:13:14 | speachy | the ipod6g ata driver doesn't use CMD_SLEEP, it uses CMD_STANDBY_IMMEDIATE |
| 09:13:59 | speachy | without checking to see if it's supported, I might add. |
| 09:14:07 | braewoods | we could also be dealing with stupid hardware / firmware that won't flush unless ordered to |
| 09:16:31 | speachy | maybe that's why this problem doesn't seem to be reported on the 6g series. |
| 09:16:58 | speachy | standby_immediate causes a cache flush |
| 09:17:16 | speachy | interesting. |
| 09:20:49 | speachy | standby isn't as deep as sleep |
| 09:20:58 | speachy | so sleep implies flushing caches too |
| 09:24:07 | _bilgus | bahus on the forums posted about a 3rd party fat32 formatter that appears to be just the ticket for these windows users http://ridgecrop.co.uk/index.htm?guiformat.htm |
| 09:24:41 | _bilgus | reading the writeup on the cli version http://ridgecrop.co.uk/index.htm?guiformat.htm |
| 09:25:29 | _bilgus | http://ridgecrop.co.uk/fat32format.htm |
| 09:25:33 | _bilgus | rather |
| 09:26:19 | speachy | oh that's good |
| 09:26:26 | _bilgus | anyway I never realized the sector size would be so important in the size of the FAT table |
| 09:27:14 | _bilgus | I mean DUH |
| 09:27:55 | speachy | _bilgus: yeah, it is one of the primary variables. : ) |
| 09:30:05 | speachy | ... though at this point, actually implementing exfat is a good idea. |
| 09:30:38 | speachy | a substantial undertaking to be sure, but at least now it's actually viable legally. |
| 09:32:07 | _bilgus | wouldn't you have to have fat to leave the bootloader and then switch to exfat? |
| 09:32:35 | speachy | depends on the target.. but yeah |
| 09:32:44 | speachy | the bootloader would have to support it too |
| 09:33:19 | _bilgus | I've put partitions on a sdcard |
| 09:33:35 | speachy | most of our targets don't support multiple partitions. |
| 09:34:21 | speachy | though that's easy to change from the rb perspective |
| 09:34:22 | _bilgus | as long as it picks up the first or do they fail to boot? |
| 09:35:05 | speachy | (ie we don't turn on MULTIVOLUME for most targets) |
| 09:35:27 | speachy | I think the various OFs don't generally care about anything other than the 1st partition |
| 09:35:58 | speachy | but one of he points of supporitng exfat is to not require folks to have to reformat their cards |
| 09:36:24 | _bilgus | yeah they come formatted that way |
| 09:41:55 | speachy | I wonder if there's any power disadvantage to using STANDBY_IMMEDIATE instead of SLEEP on the older spinning rust systems |
| 09:42:30 | speachy | (eg the irivers and 1g-5g ipods) |
| 09:42:48 | speachy | (whjich I think exclusively used toshiba disks) |
| 09:48:08 | braewoods | iriver H10 uses a hitachi |
| 09:48:11 | braewoods | originally |
| 09:48:33 | braewoods | and seagate for the 5G/6G variants |
| 09:49:19 | speachy | (I'm talking about the 1.8" ones, not the microdrive-based ones..) |
| 09:49:44 | speachy | huh, the ATA driver used to use STANDBY_IMMEDIATE but that was yanked in favor of SLEEP... in 2002. |
| 09:50:03 | braewoods | the H10 20GB doesn't use a microdrive |
| 09:50:14 | braewoods | but ok |
| 09:56:24 | speachy | ; sighs. |
| 09:57:22 | braewoods | ? |
| 09:57:26 | braewoods | find something? |
| 09:57:48 | speachy | spec-reading doesn't help much when it's the implementation that's b0rked. |
| 09:58:07 | braewoods | there's the spec and then there's reality |
| 09:58:30 | braewoods | spec is only good if people always implement it right |
| 09:58:37 | speachy | a lot of these devices claim to implement powermgmt. |
| 09:59:31 | speachy | maybe the right thing to do is use STANDBY_IMMEDIATE instead of SLEEP on these devices. |
| 09:59:52 | speachy | but I'll have to wait to see what the results of the last few test builds turn out to be |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:25 | speachy | (eg use SLEEP on spinning rust but STANDBY_IMMEDIATE on things that advertise as CF?) |
| 10:00:42 | speachy | would be interesting to figure out what the ipod firmware actually uses |
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| 10:34:49 | _bilgus | I'm having a hard time figuring out a good way to represent the keymaps in a form easily digestible lua and easily parsable for me |
| 10:36:16 | _bilgus | being that multiple contexts are capable of being remapped to the same user_ctx |
| 10:37:25 | _bilgus | i'm thinking they should all carry a tag to their parent and then I can collect them when I want to display or generate a keymap |
| 10:38:44 | _bilgus | for saving and restoreing I should be able to just serialize the table and restore without care to the order |
| 10:39:38 | _bilgus | I still need a way for a user to recover from bad keymaps |
| 10:40:20 | _bilgus | like maybe make it apply only if no buttons are pressed |
| 10:40:28 | _bilgus | ? |
| 10:41:13 | _bilgus | if select is held on startup keymap is not applied |
| 10:41:39 | _bilgus | wouldn't work for touch targets |
| 10:41:55 | _bilgus | would they need key remapping? |
| 10:41:58 | speachy | well, touch targets don't need keymaps in teh traditional sense |
| 10:42:43 | _bilgus | so select or vol up or something not currently used disableskey remap with a splash |
| 10:44:39 | _bilgus | If I rempapped my direction keys in the main menu well shame on me but how do I recover? go into OF nad delete the remap file that would be annoying |
| 10:45:27 | _bilgus | otherwise it could apply temporary and only apply on startup if you were able to go set it |
| 10:45:47 | _bilgus | but that seems annoying from a experienced user perspective |
| 10:56:13 | speachy | well, mucking with keymaps is something that's inherently dangerous and might cause your player to eat your cat |
| 10:56:48 | speachy | so.. as long as there is a documented way of resetting to "stock" keymaps I'd not worry about it. |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:27 | _bilgus | deleting the keymap does that |
| 11:00:55 | _bilgus | but i figured if you can screw it up on player you should be able to recover on player |
| 11:22:11 | speachy | well, we have a "Restore to default settings" keypress on boot, right? |
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| 13:35:26 | speachy | oh joy, here's a dump from an actual iflash-branded device, and it _doesn't_ advertise itself as CF. |
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| 13:56:15 | _bilgus | speachy, oh do we that will work as long as I make sure it happens before the keymap is loaded? |
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| 14:09:23 | speachy | don't hold me to that but I seem to recall it being there |
| 14:11:20 | chris_s | Speaking of the "Restore to default settings" keypress: That's actually (for whatever reason) the Hold slider on iPods. Which is not a great idea, because iPods automatically turn on when docked and/or connected to power. It was one of the first things that motivated me to look into compiling my own build of Rockbox (since it's trivial to change in |
| 14:11:21 | chris_s | code), because having the settings reset all the time was so irritating in practice. |
| 14:11:51 | chris_s | I think there's actually a patch in Flyspray by someone, although i haven't looked at it |
| 14:12:36 | chris_s | FS #13193 (I think it would be a better idea to simply use a different button for that on iPods though) |
| 14:12:37 | fs-bluebot | https://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/13193 Add option to disable settings reset on startup (patches, unconfirmed) |
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| 14:18:52 | speachy | yeah, I'd concur |
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| 14:46:33 | speachy | well, no change. drat. |
| 14:47:09 | speachy | disabling power saving altogether didn't change things, adding an explicit flush didn't change things. |
| 14:47:21 | speachy | backing off DMA didn't help either. |
| 14:47:27 | speachy | so there's _another_ failure mode going on. |
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| 15:07:57 | chris_s | @speachy: I wonder why Rockbox on the iPod 4G on the other hand doesn't have the same issues with the iFlash adapter (at least using UDMA1) |
| 15:08:09 | speachy | ah, but which iflash adapter.. |
| 15:10:19 | chris_s | the Solo, admittedly – I've had the same issues doing USB file transfers with that one in Rockbox on an iPod video though. |
| 15:11:18 | speachy | so the same adapter, behaving differently depending on which one it's plugged into.. interesting. |
| 15:11:44 | chris_s | I wasn't able at the time to test whether it *only* has issues in USB mode (on iPod 5Gs). |
| 15:12:24 | speachy | IIRC starting with the 5G they went away from the 50-pin CF connector? |
| 15:13:30 | speachy | if so, I wonder if it ends up getting pinstrapped differently and acts slightly differently −− and if that might show up in the identify_info dump |
| 15:13:45 | chris_s | no idea, yeah they started using ZIF connectors on the 5G: https://www.iflash.xyz/store/hdd-ribbon/ |
| 15:13:47 | speachy | (eg on these dumps it's not identifying itself as a CF adapter) |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:47 | speachy | great, no immediate way to tell the microdrives apart from the actual solid-state CF cards. |
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| 16:54:08 | * | speachy rubs his forehead. |
| 16:56:19 | speachy | ok, the latest test build seemed to work. It ignores the flag saying power management isn't supported, and issues STANDBY_IMMEDIATE. |
| 16:56:33 | speachy | oh and a flush cache first. |
| 16:57:45 | | Quit MrZeus__ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) |
| 16:58:22 | speachy | if I go forward with this, what impacts will it have on spinning rust? |
| 17:00 |
| 17:11:20 | braewoods | "Find out next time the adventures of speachy." |
| 17:11:25 | braewoods | :P |
| 17:11:31 | speachy | same irc time, same irc channel |
| 17:12:17 | speachy | well, guess I'm done for the day. cat just completely engulfed my test rig. |
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| 17:26:50 | speachy | braewoods: if you could try g#3552 on your iriver devices, I'd appreciate it |
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| 17:27:05 | speachy | preferably both modded and umodded. |
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| 17:29:46 | * | speachy pokes bluebot again. |
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| 17:37:37 | braewoods | speachy: I don't have the original hard drive anymore except for the H10 5GB |
| 17:40:41 | speachy | I need some confidence this doesn't cause regressions, so anything that can be tested will help |
| 17:41:09 | speachy | chris_s: if you could try g#3552 as well.. |
| 17:41:27 | speachy | all I can say so far is that my mini2g hasn't eaten its microdrive yet. |
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| 17:54:36 | chris_s | sure thing :) |
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| 19:05:11 | chris_s | no problems so far on the iPod 4G using iFlash Solo. I'll check the unmodded iPod Photo/color tomorrow, but that one wasn't super reliable using Rockbox's USB mode in the first place last time I checked |
| 19:07:49 | chris_s | (that could have also been an issue with MacOS though,the volume would unexpectedly disappear after transferring a limited amount of data iirc...) |
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| 19:52:55 | fs-bluebot | Build Server message: New build round started. Revision 79d1b68fe2, 298 builds, 9 clients. |
| 19:53:44 | | Join amachronic [0] (~amachroni@82.132.187.194) |
| 19:57:29 | amachronic | seems that USB is not working as well as it appeared on the M3K |
| 20:00 |
| 20:02:21 | amachronic | I assume the designware USB driver works reliably on the other ports, |
| 20:02:45 | speachy | it would seem so |
| 20:02:53 | amachronic | but for some reason I'm getting hangs and lockups |
| 20:03:07 | speachy | plugged into a USB 2 or USB3 port? |
| 20:03:12 | amachronic | USB3 |
| 20:03:21 | amachronic | haven't tried USB2 yet |
| 20:03:41 | speachy | might be worth a try, if nothing else it mucks with the timing a bit |
| 20:04:10 | amachronic | It seems there's multiple symptoms but I'm not sure what the real cause is. |
| 20:04:14 | speachy | (There's still a report of the X3 having some usb hiccups, but it seems to only affect USB2 host contollers) |
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| 20:04:38 | speachy | cache management differences between ARM and MIPS? |
| 20:04:55 | amachronic | it seems data corruption isn't the issue. |
| 20:04:57 | amachronic | oddly |
| 20:05:31 | amachronic | I was able to write 20 gigs, and read them back just fine, so I'd figure cache bugs would've manifested |
| 20:05:35 | speachy | well, the x1000 is considerably faster than any of the other dwc2 SoCs.. |
| 20:05:38 | amachronic | it only affects the early connection setup. |
| 20:05:51 | speachy | could be a classic race condition |
| 20:06:09 | amachronic | it does seem to occur most frequently when HID + mass storage are enabled together. |
| 20:06:22 | amachronic | using mass storage only seems to be less problematic |
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| 20:08:28 | amachronic | it appears that on occasion, Rockbox doesn't respond on the mass storage endpoint |
| 20:08:53 | amachronic | causing the host to try resetting, and that causes a hard lockup. |
| 20:09:39 | amachronic | pressing HID keys tricks the host into thinking the device is alive, |
| 20:10:21 | amachronic | but after a while rockbox panics with usb_dw_gonak_effective: failed! |
| 20:16:01 | speachy | I really need to get this port onto my M3K. |
| 20:16:15 | speachy | so I can actually help dig into this stuff |
| 20:16:15 | amachronic | well, it's at least one command to install now |
| 20:16:53 | speachy | I hope this iflash stuff can finally be put to rest now |
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| 20:50:23 | speachy | I think the underlying issue with the iflash stuff is that we might be entering sleep _too_ aggressively, as in momentary pauses between usb transfers are enough to trigger it. |
| 20:51:08 | speachy | and that's exacerbated by the iflash's chipset/firmware's not-quite-ATA-compliance |
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| 21:05:46 | braewoods | speachy: does this change things for bootloaders? i suspect not as the bootloaders almost never spindown the disks |
| 21:05:54 | braewoods | plus BLs typically just rea |
| 21:05:56 | braewoods | read |
| 21:06:01 | braewoods | only do writes if in USB mode |
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| 21:07:22 | speachy | yeah, probably won't affect the bootloaders at all unless they do writes |
| 21:11:17 | speachy | amachronic: any objection to moving the m3k from 'unusable' to merely 'unstable' ? |
| 21:12:18 | speachy | (it'll start showing up in nightly build list, get voice builds, and so forth) |
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