| 00:09:34 | | Join annoying_questio [0] (~annoying_@c-76-20-140-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) |
| 00:13:08 | annoying_questio | Maybe I should just find a small android type |
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| 00:16:04 | braewoods | up to you. i was just looking at what's rockbox compatible. |
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| 00:16:30 | braewoods | though not all android devices have an easy to remove sd card |
| 00:29:46 | _bilgus | one of those androids with the slide out kb would be perfect |
| 00:30:50 | _bilgus | since they are likely not working with carriers probable sub $30 area i'd imagine |
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| 03:20:07 | PaulFertser | braewoods: is fiio m3k really more problematic than the other x1000 boards (erosq)? |
| 03:22:37 | PaulFertser | ftr, I have sansa e200 and it boots from internal memory and uSD card hotswap is working nicely. |
| 03:25:16 | PaulFertser | I'd say e200 works wonder if not for the varying background hum :/ |
| 03:30:34 | PaulFertser | btw, erosq seems to be available on newegg for little over 100 bucks but I think one shouldn't be buying a device from a company that violates GPL. |
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| 04:18:13 | JanC | just buy it and then demand the sources from Newegg :) |
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| 08:00 |
| 08:07:21 | spork | what is problematic about the m3k? i use it daily |
| 08:07:47 | spork | fiio tries to follow the gpl better than most |
| 08:09:20 | PaulFertser | spork: I was kind of scared by the list of issues on https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/FiioM3K compared to https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/Main/AIGOErosQK |
| 08:09:56 | spork | amachronic provides a lot of detail |
| 08:10:35 | spork | most x1000 platforms are similar, some m3k issues might apply to others even though they are not listed |
| 08:11:27 | spork | *most x1000 devices that is |
| 08:14:01 | spork | from what i read, all supported x1000-based players are very usable |
| 08:14:35 | spork | both mine (m3k/q1) have no meaningful issues |
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| 08:37:01 | PaulFertser | Good to know, thank you! |
| 08:38:55 | PaulFertser | " The DAC makes popping noises when changing frequency. " this might get annoying I can imagine. |
| 08:39:35 | PaulFertser | And erosq has a different DAC. |
| 08:45:21 | speachy | The hosted x1000-based units work well too FWIW. |
| 08:54:31 | PaulFertser | I am too much allergic to android to consider a hosted port. |
| 08:55:22 | speachy | FWIW, the x1000s use an android kernel but are otherwise "traditional" userspace. |
| 08:55:37 | speachy | (basically built on top of a ingenic-supplied kernel) |
| 08:57:57 | PaulFertser | I've read the sources for some hosted rockbox ports and that didn't fill me with joy at all. Not sure I can enjoy using a device knowing it runs such a downstream kernel without proper sources and with plenty of sysfs and other hacks instead of proper APIs. |
| 09:00 |
| 09:12:35 | yang | Just to get a confirmation, the Ipod headphones volume/up/down and Microphone on the cabling, dones't work on m3k? |
| 09:28:24 | spork | x1000s use a linux kernel |
| 09:28:50 | spork | how is it related to android ? |
| 09:33:00 | speachy | PaulFertser: the system you're using to interact with this IRC channel is running on proprietary firmware. |
| 09:33:20 | speachy | perfection is the enemy of good. |
| 09:33:37 | speachy | (plus all the intermediate routers) |
| 09:34:09 | speachy | *every* single peripheral in or attached to the system I'm using is running non-free software. from the keyboard to the displays, and everything in between. |
| 09:35:26 | speachy | far be it for me to say what you should or should not "enjoy using" but unless you build your own hardware (including the ASICs!) you're going to have non-free software running on some level. |
| 09:36:12 | speachy | in the mean time, all we can do is make do with what we have, and try to maximize the Freedom available to our users. |
| 09:37:20 | speachy | spork: the reference kernel supplied by Ingenic is an Android kernel. because Android was the primary target for these SoCs. |
| 09:38:10 | speachy | Yes, Android is Linux, but it is/was a significant fork with a lot of non-mainline stuff in it, even before the hardware-specific stuff was added. |
| 09:39:23 | spork | i get that, but do you know how much android-related stuff survives ? |
| 09:39:47 | spork | i see the android config for the m3k, but not so much in the ingenic sources |
| 09:40:09 | speachy | spork: given they shipped it with a "traditional" Linux userspace (buildroot FWIW) it's rather moot. |
| 09:40:19 | spork | not that i suppose it matters much |
| 09:40:47 | spork | my x1000's do not have hosted rockbox |
| 09:40:55 | speachy | stuff we specifically take advantage of is adb and the much saner usb gadget approach of android |
| 09:41:46 | speachy | the m3k kernel is a dumpster fire. |
| 09:41:59 | spork | you mentioned that :) |
| 09:42:12 | spork | especially the excessive logging |
| 09:42:29 | speachy | which is hilarious as they're the only ingenic-based folks to actually _attempt_ to comply with the GPL. |
| 09:42:52 | spork | shanling does on request, but it is equally useless |
| 09:43:23 | spork | something outdated and incomplere |
| 09:43:25 | spork | t |
| 09:43:26 | speachy | the fact that ingenic even publishes english documentation is highly unusual. |
| 09:43:33 | speachy | (or public documentation at all, honestly) |
| 09:45:01 | speachy | but fiio includes a copy of the GPL in the box, includes a reference to it on their "about" page on the player, etc. |
| 09:45:26 | speachy | their internal processes are ...lacking but they at least tried, so good for them. |
| 09:45:38 | spork | i would buy a spare m3k if i could do at what i paid for my first |
| 09:46:25 | speachy | I suspect most of the other x1000 players don't even have the source code to (re)publish, as the base OS/platform was provided by HiBy |
| 09:46:47 | speachy | (and the player application too) |
| 09:47:06 | PaulFertser | speachy: I know where there's proprietary code involved and where not. E.g. my wireless card is ath5k, no firmware, the wifi router is ath9k, no firmware (OpenWrt OS). When I have any choice at all I'm trying to avoid closed vendor codes at all costs. |
| 09:47:10 | spork | hiby should have for the OS part |
| 09:48:47 | speachy | pudding aside the jankiness of the m3k hosted kernel, most of the problems with our native port are our own fault. |
| 09:49:18 | speachy | s/pudding/putting/ (gaah) |
| 09:49:41 | spork | fiio m3 pro is also x1000e-based too, perhaps i should get amachronic one |
| 09:51:14 | PaulFertser | Even uSD cards have firmware and that often hurts, I'd prefer raw NAND to be exposed. |
| 09:53:08 | speachy | most of my F/OSS "career" has been spent reverse engineering hardware to make free software drivers (or firmware) feasible. |
| 09:55:07 | PaulFertser | RE is always hard and you never know if you're going to succeed. That's amazing you're doing what you do. |
| 09:55:40 | speachy | the "don't share unless forced to" mentality is pervasive. |
| 09:56:58 | Ctcp | Ignored 2 channel CTCP requests in 3 minutes and 26 seconds at the last flood |
| 09:56:58 | * | speachy sighs. |
| 09:58:15 | speachy | the current DAP market is twofold; cheap shovelware based on the rknano/atj2137-class parts with <512K of RAM, or the equivalent of an ipod touch −− essentially an android phone minus the phone part. |
| 09:58:21 | spork | short term sharing does not make money |
| 09:58:49 | speachy | long-term sharing doesn't make money either, at least not in any easily-quantifiable way. at best it reduces costs. |
| 09:59:16 | speachy | the big tech companies (and even non-tech) know this, and use industry groups/associations to pool resources |
| 09:59:24 | spork | it could improve reputation, but that might not show up in sales |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:16 | spork | so many examples of big companies taking from oss, not giving back |
| 10:01:07 | speachy | commercial use was _always_ based around economics −− go with whatever is cheaper. especially in the short term. |
| 10:02:16 | speachy | most organizations genuinely don't hav anything worth giving back. |
| 10:03:34 | speachy | but if they are thinking beyond a single product (which they rarely do) they might see that treating F/OSS as two-way means they can reduce their longer-term costs. |
| 10:04:05 | speachy | but that sort of thing is a lot harder to justify on the quarterly financial reports. |
| 10:04:35 | spork | managers making decisions not to share probably have little faith their competitors actually will share |
| 10:04:37 | speachy | (my iminent layoff is a testament to that. as was the last one, incidently) |
| 10:05:18 | speachy | it actually has little to do with competitors IMO −− more to do with internal politics (which in turn are largrely driven by the metrics used to hand out financial rewards) |
| 10:06:22 | speachy | where competitors come into play is more to do with paranoia "they'll steal our stuff, or see that we stole theirs" paranoia. |
| 10:07:38 | spork | each time i think there will be no future targets for rockbox. i suppose the x1000's were a bonus. |
| 10:10:49 | speachy | the tide is turning though, as the security realities (==liabilities) of IoT products are beginning to make proper software BOM tracking critically important |
| 10:11:40 | speachy | yeah, the ingenic stuff was an unexpected bonus. I don't know if we can expect another round of non-touchscreen DAPs. |
| 10:13:07 | speachy | I've tried reaching out to the EROS folks −− they released a Q II that uses a different HW/SW platform in the same physical form factor. |
| 10:14:00 | speachy | this goes back to the "having our own player produced" pipe dream |
| 10:14:48 | speachy | but if we could place a sufficiently large order, we could ask for appropriate source code/documentation and expect to get it. |
| 10:15:09 | speachy | it would be a lot cheaper than designing/manufacturing somethign from scratch |
| 10:15:31 | speachy | (especially the case..) |
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| 10:17:35 | spork | hard to avoid touchscreens |
| 10:17:59 | speachy | IMO physical controls are a hard requirement. |
| 10:19:16 | spork | i prefer buttons, but a combination is ok if there at least 3-4 physical buttons too |
| 10:20:29 | speachy | I'm thinking primarily of blind folks, but that same approach benefits everyone if the device can be operated without looking at the screen. |
| 10:22:16 | speachy | https://www-eroshifi-com.translate.goog/news/130.html?_x_tr_sl=zh-CN&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=nui&_x_tr_sch=http |
| 10:25:08 | PaulFertser | My first portable flash player didn't have any display at all, just some kind of joystick which was essentially 3 buttons in one. Worked from a single AAA cell. |
| 10:26:04 | speachy | I can try to get one (via aliexpress or something) with the intent of taking it apart |
| 10:30:19 | spork | do you know what soc it uses ? |
| 10:30:52 | PaulFertser | I can't even find a photo of one, it was probably 15 years ago. It had about 128 MiB internal flash IIRC. |
| 10:31:46 | speachy | spork: nope, only they claim it's their own and runs an in-house RTOS vs Linux. |
| 10:32:41 | speachy | based on the capabilities it's much more likely to be in the x1000 level of capabilities rather than a microcontroller. |
| 10:33:29 | spork | 'eros e2' is not helpful |
| 10:33:32 | speachy | yeah |
| 10:33:58 | spork | yeah, bluetooth, dac, etc all sounds similar to x1000 platform players |
| 10:34:02 | speachy | PaulFertser: yeah, I recall a few of those things |
| 10:34:11 | spork | maybe their rtos is rockbox |
| 10:34:12 | speachy | spork: it's definitely not linux though |
| 10:34:30 | speachy | and highly unlikely to be rockbox too. :) |
| 10:34:52 | spork | that would catch several birds at once |
| 10:36:06 | speachy | there's a "Q2 touchscreen" variant, that's probably x1000-based. |
| 10:36:11 | speachy | (hibyos) |
| 10:36:51 | spork | they like that form factor |
| 10:43:22 | speachy | yeah |
| 10:46:28 | speachy | ANYway. |
| 10:51:16 | PaulFertser | I first heard about Ingenic when they released some electronic ads in Vogue or Playboy magazines. |
| 11:00 |
| 11:00:21 | speachy | there are some allwinner parts of roughtly the same capabilities (DRAM-on-package) |
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| 11:22:00 | _bilgus | PaulFertser, at this point we are just looking for viable hardware open or not we don't really have a luxury of being picky we just need hardware to stay relevant |
| 11:25:10 | _bilgus | Ive been working on this keyremap plugin for the last week, I really need to come up with a better input method than lists |
| 11:27:22 | PaulFertser | _bilgus: I wonder if Rockbox can collaborate with Pine64 on creating a superb device. They seem to have all the necessary connections and are pro-free software. |
| 11:27:55 | _bilgus | we are already trying that but its too low on RAM for us |
| 11:28:17 | PaulFertser | It being what exactly? |
| 11:28:32 | speachy | they've proposed two things; essentially a phone-less variant of the pinephone, and something based on a BT headphone ASIC that only has 1/2 the RAM we need to be viable. |
| 11:28:36 | _bilgus | it wouldnt be superb itd be a neutered mess |
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| 11:29:03 | speachy | (or was thet 3/4? either way we'd have to make drastic cuts in functionality) |
| 11:33:45 | PaulFertser | So it might become viable when a newer version of that BT ASIC is released or when probably another suitable SoC is found. They seem to have all the capabilities to design and manufacture proper cases, and they have huge audience. |
| 11:34:19 | speachy | based on earlier discussions the case is the biggest problem due to up-front tooling costs |
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| 11:35:56 | PaulFertser | Indeed, and they already have the expertise. I do not think the pinephone keyboards are numerous and yet they managed it somehow. |
| 11:38:43 | PaulFertser | An alternative would be to design a replacement motherboard for some cheap mass players that could be bought just for their cases. |
| 11:39:36 | | Part frosteyes (WeeChat 2.8) |
| 11:39:37 | PaulFertser | (for the first run, and then the right connections might allow to secure a deal with the ODM for the cases alone) |
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| 11:56:49 | amachronic | PaulFertser, I wrote those issues on the m3k wiki page over a year ago and they aren't as bad as they sound |
| 11:57:33 | amachronic | popping on frequency change mostly affects the > 96 KHz range in practice |
| 11:59:02 | amachronic | wonky touchpad is a real but minor annoyance, the rest is more technical problems which don't really affect day to day usage |
| 11:59:44 | amachronic | (that's why it's also "TODO list" :) |
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| 12:01:25 | amachronic | the main downside to the m3k IMO is that in the long run it might not be that easy to repair |
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| 12:18:03 | PaulFertser | amachronic: hey, thank you for the info. What kind of repair do you mean? |
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| 12:34:04 | amachronic | PaulFertser: I mean after many years it's not likely to be repairable like the ipods are |
| 12:35:15 | amachronic | but I never took mine apart (I lack the tools to properly reassemble it) so take my advice with a grain of salt |
| 12:35:21 | amachronic | (my m3k I mean) |
| 12:40:00 | spork | hppefully the battery will not die too fast |
| 12:45:34 | spork | the instructions on the wiki are very clear and completely outside my skills |
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| 13:23:34 | yang | Just to get a confirmation, the Ipod headphones volume/up/down and Microphone on the cable, doesn't work on m3k? |
| 13:23:39 | PaulFertser | Hm, disassembly instructions look similar to what one does with modern smartphones. |
| 13:26:17 | speachy | yang: correct, the m3k lacks that functionality. |
| 13:26:58 | braewoods | speachy: given everything it wouldn't surprise me if rockbox's future could end up being as a Linux distribution |
| 13:27:12 | braewoods | it's getting more difficult to keep up with new native ports |
| 13:27:23 | | Quit amachronic (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) |
| 13:27:38 | speachy | braewoods: quite possibly, yes. but managing a "native" linux distribution also requires more than we traditionally have available too. |
| 13:27:58 | braewoods | indeed but we'd be more like openwrt if that's where we ended up |
| 13:29:15 | spork | openbox |
| 13:29:41 | yang | thanks for clarification speachy |
| 13:31:35 | PaulFertser | OpenWrt devs spend great deal of time on Linux programming, so it's not just a distro. |
| 13:32:16 | braewoods | i'm well aware. it's just the closest one to what rockbox is. |
| 13:33:16 | PaulFertser | And probably it's actually a good project to base development of such new ports on. |
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| 13:34:57 | PaulFertser | It's nice for constrained systems, and the build system is more advanced than regular buildroot. |
| 13:37:14 | braewoods | It's optimized for networking devices so not totally correct. |
| 13:38:02 | PaulFertser | What exactly makes it optimised better for networking devices than for a DAP? |
| 13:38:24 | braewoods | everything in the design is optimized for router or similar use |
| 13:38:34 | braewoods | it assumes you have wifi, etc, which a DAP may not have |
| 13:39:29 | PaulFertser | The recent port to realtek-based managed switches works just fine without wifi (it's a wired ethernet switch after all). hostapd and kernel drivers are just not included. |
| 13:39:31 | braewoods | if anything Alpine would probably make more sense |
| 13:41:14 | braewoods | well a DAP is pretty much guaranteed to lack ethernet |
| 13:42:11 | braewoods | in any case |
| 13:42:28 | braewoods | it's somewhat moot until there's a device worth managing like this |
| 13:42:46 | PaulFertser | OpenWrt uses procd which consumes way fewer resources than systemd. And OpenWrt doesn't require any networking to run, really. |
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| 13:47:44 | amachronic | A 'Linux port' to the x1000 would be feasible, but only useful for the bluetooth and wifi-enabled targets. |
| 13:48:33 | amachronic | (a lot of the low level stuff is already upstream and what isn't can be easily ported from Rockbox) |
| 13:48:49 | braewoods | i've just been thinking our own Linux managed stack would be desireable if that's even practical, not being stuck with whatever the vendor used |
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| 13:49:33 | braewoods | but hit or miss with ARM linux |
| 13:49:40 | amachronic | agreed it'd be useful but it significantly shifts the scope of the project |
| 13:49:57 | amachronic | plus it's no good for the older MMU-less devices |
| 13:50:22 | braewoods | it'd probably deserve its own repo |
| 13:50:37 | braewoods | since it's far removed from regular rockbox |
| 13:50:50 | braewoods | rockbox could target this if we managed it somehow |
| 13:51:41 | amachronic | then there's the problem that the hosted version of RB isn't exactly great |
| 13:52:08 | amachronic | it basically emulates a 100 Hz kernel tick to get the co-operative threading model |
| 13:52:29 | amachronic | and it uses a lot of polling when it could take more advantage of event-based interfaces |
| 13:54:00 | amachronic | and there's less RAM available too |
| 13:54:13 | braewoods | huh. i found an interesting option. |
| 13:54:24 | braewoods | though kinda bulky |
| 14:00 |
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| 14:04:42 | speachy | amachronic: yeah, I have some WIP code to replace the soft threads with native linux threads. |
| 14:04:55 | speachy | that alone will make a huge difference |
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| 14:45:09 | tertu | is the mmuless branch of linux still around |
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| 14:54:22 | PaulFertser | tertu: it's upstream, called "nommu" |
| 15:00 |
| 15:26:13 | tertu | that seems useful |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).