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#rockbox log for 2021-11-30

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11:21:36tertuhow much ram does rockbox need to run it at the minimum?
11:25:34tertu*in
11:40:18gevaertsRun or work? :) The sansa clip (v1) has 2MB and works fine. The sansa c200v2 has 2MB too, but a colour screen, and that's a bit tight as I recall
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16:39:39tertuoh, run
16:40:00tertui seem to remember some platform with a few hundred K of ram being mentioned but it could be that's one of the archoses or something
16:41:22speachythe archoses had 2MB of RAM too.
16:41:46speachythese few-hundred-kb-of-RAM platforms are what the current crop of shovelware mp3 players are built on.
16:42:05speachy(rockchip nano, atj2127, etc)
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17:40:23braewoodswhich rockbox could probably run on it if we stripped down heavily
17:40:33braewoodsbut then it wouldn't really be rockbox anymore
17:41:50speachy(assuming we even had the docs to utilize the hw codec engines)
17:42:51speachywe'd lose things like meaningful themes, accessibility (no more voiced menus etc), nearly all plugins, less mainstream codecs, etc etc etc
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18:21:47tertuoh right they're using hw dsp engines....
18:21:50tertubleh
18:23:38tertuspecifically i was thinking about the raspberry pi pico as a platform, which has nowhere near enough ram
18:24:56tertuno idea if it has enough CPU either, though i would think that the speed advantage over eg, the portalplayers would make up for only being able to use thumb1
18:28:48speachythe pico probably has enough CPU (barely) but its limited RAM is a complete non-starter.
18:29:20speachyvery few general purpose microcontrollers are viable port targets, at least not unless they support external DRAM
18:30:43speachyyeah, dual core cortex-m0+ @133MHz so it ought to be roughly as powerful as the PP502x targets
18:30:57speachybut 264K RAM isn't going to cut it. :D
18:32:08braewoodsalmost makes me think a router SoC would be more appropriate
18:32:14braewoodsthose naturally need way more RAM
18:32:20speachynaw, webcam.
18:32:45speachyeg the allwinner v3/v3s (as seen in the pinecube)
18:33:26speachy128/64MB on-package with a 1.2GHz Cortex-A7
18:33:30braewoodsi know you're opposed to touchscreens but
18:33:41speachythat's probably the perfect SoC for what we care about
18:33:54braewoodscouldn't we adapt rockbox to one somehow or other?
18:33:58speachyplus its onboard audio codec is decent enough too. not sure if a router soc would even have onboard audio as an option
18:34:05braewoodsprobably not
18:34:09braewoodsbut USB is an option
18:34:15braewoodssome even support pcie
18:34:31speachythat's way, way too expensive to integrate
18:34:45speachy(not to mention pcie isn't exactly battery friendly)
18:34:46braewoodsoh, so you want everything to be on the SoC?
18:35:25speachymore integration means smaller pcbs and BoMs
18:36:49speachythe on-package DRAM is another _huge_ benefit. stuff with stacked package-on-package is also good to have but more costly (and >32MB of RAM really is wasted)
18:37:18speachyhttps://linuxgizmos.com/linux-driven-sbc-costs-6-or-8-with-wifi/
18:37:50speachybut the pcb etc is the cheap part
18:38:16speachyeasy to prototype and build in small quantities
18:38:46speachythe case is not; 3d printers can do the trick for prototyping but any volume requires large upfront tooling costs
18:39:18speachy(and even in small volumes 3d priting is s..l..o..w.. and expensive)
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18:53:43speachybraewoods: some of the high-end STM32 parts have (barely) enough on-chip SRAM but most of the higher-pincount versions across the model line support external DRAM
18:54:54speachybut the pricing _really_ doesn't make sense. as in it would be cheaper to just buy RPi Zeros at retail and stack them onto a secondary PCB.
18:55:25speachy(and it would likely be more compact too!)
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19:06:14braewoodsspeachy: i see
19:06:30braewoodsspeachy: not to mention the pi zeros often come with wifi
19:06:44braewoodsand their hdmi could be used to drive a screen
19:21:02LongclawThe HDMI isn't amazingly suited for that but the GPIO pins can be used to drive small OLED screens of the sort you'd expect to see on a player
19:22:12Longclawsomething like this https://community.element14.com/products/raspberry-pi/raspberrypi_projects/b/blog/posts/raspberry-pi-zero-internet-connected-information-display
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21:13:34speachyyeah, a native hdmi screen would be (1) large and (2) very power-hungry. Instead we'd want a small SPI-connected display, or (on larger-form-factor RPis) a DSI-connected screen, that way we can use the onboard GPU/framebuffer
21:14:49speachybuilding something on top of an rpi would make for an interesting proof-of-concept but a crappy product. :/
21:15:03speachybut more useful than wifi on the zero-w is bluetooth.
21:19:36speachybut the pi zero can be reduced down to about 400mW when completely idle (hdmi disabled) going up to about 1W when loaded down, with no external peripherals
21:20:36tertuthat still seems like... a lot
21:21:07speachyyeah.
21:21:38speachyit's not built for power efficiency. the zero 2 W is actually thirstier but gives a lot more oomph for the power.
21:24:05speachygranted we'd be closer to the idle side than the loaded down side (display and UI is off most of the time, after all) but there's not a lot we can do to shrink down power consumption (IIRC by default dynamic clocking is enabled)
21:30:04speachyI have a couple of these: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LBKNWX4?tag=huynhnguyen-20
21:30:13speachybut this is about he same functionality: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183792149332
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