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| 10:07:30 | speachy | hey, this might be of interest to folks here.. |
| 10:07:32 | speachy | https://matrix.org/blog/2023/07/deportalling-libera-chat/ |
| 10:08:23 | speachy | the tl;dr: the automatic matrix<->IRC gateway on libera.chat is going away, and if individual channels want to keep that functionality, they have to take their own steps to continue |
| 10:09:32 | buZz | thank heavens! |
| 10:10:07 | speachy | what that entails hasn't been detailed yet, but as there at least a few rockbox devs that use that matrix portal, I assume keeping such functionality going is desired. |
| 10:10:36 | buZz | lol wtf > Over the last 9 years, the IRC bridge has had its share of problems |
| 10:10:45 | buZz | libera isnt even 9 years old, wtf are they on about :D |
| 10:11:14 | speachy | it's not unique to libera |
| 10:11:40 | kirvesAxe | IRC is 35 years old... |
| 10:11:45 | buZz | kirvesAxe: more |
| 10:11:55 | buZz | wait, no |
| 10:11:56 | buZz | 1988 |
| 10:12:08 | speachy | and most of the libera admins were keeping the freenode stuuff going before that. |
| 10:12:12 | buZz | funny, i've been on irc for most its life now :D cool |
| 10:12:14 | kirvesAxe | buZz, ;) |
| 10:12:46 | buZz | i hope this is the beginning of matrix' VC running out |
| 10:12:51 | speachy | ANYway. |
| 10:13:03 | speachy | Matrix has VC funding? |
| 10:13:14 | buZz | there's really such high odds anyone with [m] joining a channel is a spammer, some channels already banned the whole matrix ipv6 range |
| 10:14:04 | speachy | I'd personally not care but I know at least a couple of our "active" developers use it regularly. |
| 10:14:08 | buZz | speachy: most 'this is better than IRC!' chats do |
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| 10:15:04 | speachy | buZz: yep, quite true, but Matrix isnt' really a "company" in the same sense. No VC would ever fund something that's open and federated from teh outset. :D |
| 10:15:40 | buZz | perhaps |
| 10:15:50 | buZz | either way, funding will run out on matrix eventually |
| 10:16:03 | buZz | there's no business model and its a single entity maintaining most of it |
| 10:17:05 | buZz | this post reads to -me- like they already cant afford more effort into these bridges |
| 10:17:18 | buZz | so, imho hopefully, beginning of the end |
| 10:17:24 | speachy | I hope not. |
| 10:17:58 | speachy | the alternative is $bigtech-controlled silos. |
| 10:18:09 | buZz | irc is a bigtech-controlled silo? |
| 10:18:29 | speachy | and/or yet-another-mobile-only tool |
| 10:18:55 | speachy | IRC is barely comparable in its feature sets |
| 10:18:59 | buZz | good |
| 10:19:11 | buZz | so the alternative to using IRC is $bigtech-controlled silo |
| 10:19:16 | buZz | thats fine by me, good riddance |
| 10:19:43 | speachy | IRC has zero persistence. Which is ... really crappy for most use cases. |
| 10:19:51 | buZz | not for chat though |
| 10:19:56 | buZz | chat isnt a forum |
| 10:19:59 | buZz | chat isnt a blog |
| 10:20:01 | buZz | chat is chat |
| 10:20:08 | buZz | inherently volatile |
| 10:20:09 | speachy | IRC is a virtal water cooler |
| 10:20:32 | buZz | like, if i call you a poopiehead on here -today- |
| 10:20:34 | buZz | thats just chat |
| 10:20:39 | speachy | and has its own layers-upon-layers of cruft hacked onto it to keep it going. |
| 10:20:44 | buZz | not 'this will forever be on google to find by anyone' |
| 10:20:52 | speachy | except everyhting in this channel is persistently logged |
| 10:20:54 | speachy | heh |
| 10:20:58 | buZz | sure |
| 10:21:03 | buZz | but thats not a feature of -irc- |
| 10:21:06 | speachy | and indexed by googleee. |
| 10:21:10 | buZz | its a feature of humans |
| 10:21:31 | speachy | Yes, but enough projjects out there need that functionality and have to reinvent the same wheels |
| 10:21:37 | buZz | good |
| 10:21:51 | speachy | Matrix, Jabber etc are messaging services first, with group chat bolted onto the side. |
| 10:21:55 | buZz | as kirvesAxe said, they've had 35 years time to practise |
| 10:22:28 | buZz | my biggest gripe with that matrix spam , is the 'reply format' |
| 10:22:37 | buZz | its so dissonant to -anything- that happens on IRC |
| 10:23:10 | speachy | and messaging is not something I want to haave to completely cede over to $bigtech/$bigtelco or otherwise tie to a physical device that can get lost, stolen, or damaged. |
| 10:23:17 | buZz | almost like they never even -used- irc before they fought to abuse it to veign usage |
| 10:23:54 | buZz | numbers in that article dont lie :P the 'libera bridge' were used by ~10k matrix users and ~30k irc users |
| 10:24:01 | buZz | hence, most ppl use irc with irc |
| 10:24:23 | buZz | i totally understand people want aids, but matrix is not a aid for irc, just a burdon |
| 10:24:36 | speachy | I know sevveral large communities that rely on that bridge bbbbeing there. |
| 10:25:02 | buZz | right, so it didnt even exist before? |
| 10:25:04 | speachy | (sorry about the duplicate letters. I keep getting random input lag here) |
| 10:26:51 | buZz | ah well, pretty offtopic for here |
| 10:26:57 | speachy | IRC is "old school" −− its users are comfortable with its warts but it's a significant barrier to entry for everyone else. |
| 10:28:09 | speachy | True, it is kinda offtopic, but on the other hand, it's something Rockbox has a vested interest in −− we have so few contributors, and if there are things we can do to remove someee of the initial pain points, it's in our own longer-term interest. |
| 10:28:30 | speachy | (And I say that as the inevitable Mr.Somebody that will probably have to perform that work...) |
| 10:30:15 | buZz | :) |
| 10:30:24 | buZz | also an option is not relying on prefab bridges |
| 10:30:42 | speachy | yeah, that's what the current path forward appears to be. |
| 10:30:56 | speachy | I intend to opt into that stuff. |
| 10:31:20 | buZz | thats using the prefab bridge then? |
| 10:31:43 | buZz | you can do -portalled- with your own bridge |
| 10:31:47 | speachy | a more focused bridge than the 'we automagically bridge EVERYTHING' |
| 10:31:49 | buZz | or -plumbed- with the prefab |
| 10:31:59 | speachy | portalled,then |
| 10:32:37 | speachy | when details are available I'll see what it entails and what the "price" is. |
| 10:35:50 | speachy | heh. even keeping our logbot going has entailed a non-trivial amount of work. |
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| 16:18:42 | solrize | wow glad this channel is still around. this looks interesting: https://www.adafruit.com/product/5742 |
| 16:20:47 | speachy | interesting PCB shape. |
| 16:22:00 | solrize | yeah i don't understand the purpose of that shape |
| 16:22:44 | solrize | wonder if that pcb trace on the right is supposed to be a touch sensor |
| 16:24:56 | speachy | we've talked about using an ESP32 before; it's not a terribly good candidate for a port, even at their highest end. |
| 16:25:29 | speachy | I think that trace is meant to have a membrrane-type button on top. |
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| 18:13:37 | braewoods_ | speachy, the impression i get is the best situation is probably running as a Linux application on a Linux ARM board that somehow has the right features to be a viable mp3 player. |
| 18:14:08 | braewoods_ | which probably means a phone SoC or other mobile device being repurposed |
| 18:14:10 | speachy | what makes a viable mp3 player is the physical form factor (&enclosure) |
| 18:14:23 | braewoods_ | yea, that and the hardware being viable for it too. |
| 18:14:24 | speachy | anything else is frankly just a toy. |
| 18:15:54 | braewoods_ | most systems have proprietary battery solutions but i've always wondered if you could build one that used USB HID POWER instead. |
| 18:16:49 | speachy | HID power is just a data/control plane for charging; you'd still need onboard power management. |
| 18:21:08 | speachy | and, at minimum, a design that isn't predicated on having a 5V supply. |
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| 18:27:41 | speachy | The act of porting RB to a random Linux target is pretty trivial. The pain is adapting that target to a new form factor. |
| 18:28:13 | braewoods_ | yea, it just seems like the most likely situation given economics. |
| 18:28:18 | speachy | oh, to a lesser extent, providing a clean integration/installation process. |
| 18:28:39 | speachy | economics means our only real option is to adapt existing player hardware. |
| 18:28:42 | braewoods_ | it's too bad there's not as much interest in rockbox as there is in the retro scene. |
| 18:29:09 | speachy | heh, the "retro scene" is also nearly entirely depenedent on piracy. |
| 18:29:33 | braewoods_ | well, one might say the same about the music people would put on a player. |
| 18:29:52 | braewoods_ | i was mostly thinking in terms of hardware. |
| 18:30:11 | braewoods_ | i was watching the progress on the commander x16. |
| 18:30:29 | speachy | once upon a time, that was arguably true, but today... one has actual choices wheere to buy music. |
| 18:30:48 | speachy | whereas the retro stuff, nearly none of it is available commercially. |
| 18:31:06 | braewoods_ | right, and since audio CDs are still just as usable as they were 50 years ago... |
| 18:31:08 | speachy | (and when it is, it's not sold for use on those platforms) |
| 18:31:37 | speachy | how many people have dumped their own ROMs? :) |
| 18:32:07 | braewoods_ | kinda funny how out of all the old media storage types, optical disks have outlasted all of their now dead competitors |
| 18:32:25 | braewoods_ | in terms of finding stuff that can read them. |
| 18:33:04 | speachy | none of its "successors" ever amounted to much; they cost more for no benefit. |
| 18:33:22 | speachy | because it turns out the Mk I human ear really does suck |
| 18:34:29 | speachy | and, heh, the number of "audiophiles" that go on and on about compression artifacts end up playing things via bluetooth anyway. :D |
| 18:34:33 | braewoods_ | it's weird seeing all the stuff people are doing to keep antiquated systems running. |
| 18:35:05 | braewoods_ | old vintage PCs being outfitted with flash based replacements for their bulky hard drives. |
| 18:35:39 | speachy | well, folks have always had questionable hobbies. it's their time and money, after all. |
| 18:35:55 | braewoods_ | I'd sooner just emulate it. :D |
| 18:36:03 | speachy | heck, rockbox's current existance an example of that questionable mentality. |
| 18:38:37 | braewoods_ | speachy, you been reading up on C23? |
| 18:38:47 | braewoods_ | not that a lot of it would apply to rockbox anytime soon |
| 18:39:30 | speachy | not really; it seemed like the goall was to pull C closer to C++'s awfulness. |
| 18:39:48 | braewoods_ | well it has some extra preprocessor features. |
| 18:39:56 | braewoods_ | one of which seemed particularly interesting |
| 18:40:16 | braewoods_ | #embed. But GCC doesn't yet implement it. |
| 18:40:37 | braewoods_ | it's useful for converting binary files into a C compatible array. |
| 18:41:08 | braewoods_ | but honestly i kinda had the feeling it would have been better to just add that as a compiler feature. |
| 18:41:21 | braewoods_ | instead of a preprocessor. |
| 18:41:56 | braewoods_ | i saw potential in it for applications that want to embed binary data directly into their executable. |
| 18:42:11 | braewoods_ | to date that has required extra effort from the build system to achieve. |
| 18:43:52 | speachy | #embed is the only feature I've considered useful, but since we already have tooling to achieve somethign similar... |
| 18:44:06 | speachy | great for newer efforts though |
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