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#rockbox log for 2023-07-05

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10:07:30speachyhey, this might be of interest to folks here..
10:08:23speachythe tl;dr: the automatic matrix<->IRC gateway on is going away, and if individual channels want to keep that functionality, they have to take their own steps to continue
10:09:32buZzthank heavens!
10:10:07speachywhat that entails hasn't been detailed yet, but as there at least a few rockbox devs that use that matrix portal, I assume keeping such functionality going is desired.
10:10:36buZzlol wtf > Over the last 9 years, the IRC bridge has had its share of problems
10:10:45buZzlibera isnt even 9 years old, wtf are they on about :D
10:11:14speachyit's not unique to libera
10:11:40kirvesAxeIRC is 35 years old...
10:11:45buZzkirvesAxe: more
10:11:55buZzwait, no
10:12:08speachyand most of the libera admins were keeping the freenode stuuff going before that.
10:12:12buZzfunny, i've been on irc for most its life now :D cool
10:12:14kirvesAxebuZz, ;)
10:12:46buZzi hope this is the beginning of matrix' VC running out
10:13:03speachyMatrix has VC funding?
10:13:14buZzthere's really such high odds anyone with [m] joining a channel is a spammer, some channels already banned the whole matrix ipv6 range
10:14:04speachyI'd personally not care but I know at least a couple of our "active" developers use it regularly.
10:14:08buZzspeachy: most 'this is better than IRC!' chats do
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10:15:04speachybuZz: yep, quite true, but Matrix isnt' really a "company" in the same sense. No VC would ever fund something that's open and federated from teh outset. :D
10:15:50buZzeither way, funding will run out on matrix eventually
10:16:03buZzthere's no business model and its a single entity maintaining most of it
10:17:05buZzthis post reads to -me- like they already cant afford more effort into these bridges
10:17:18buZzso, imho hopefully, beginning of the end
10:17:24speachyI hope not.
10:17:58speachythe alternative is $bigtech-controlled silos.
10:18:09buZzirc is a bigtech-controlled silo?
10:18:29speachyand/or yet-another-mobile-only tool
10:18:55speachyIRC is barely comparable in its feature sets
10:19:11buZzso the alternative to using IRC is $bigtech-controlled silo
10:19:16buZzthats fine by me, good riddance
10:19:43speachyIRC has zero persistence. Which is ... really crappy for most use cases.
10:19:51buZznot for chat though
10:19:56buZzchat isnt a forum
10:19:59buZzchat isnt a blog
10:20:01buZzchat is chat
10:20:08buZzinherently volatile
10:20:09speachyIRC is a virtal water cooler
10:20:32buZzlike, if i call you a poopiehead on here -today-
10:20:34buZzthats just chat
10:20:39speachyand has its own layers-upon-layers of cruft hacked onto it to keep it going.
10:20:44buZznot 'this will forever be on google to find by anyone'
10:20:52speachyexcept everyhting in this channel is persistently logged
10:21:03buZzbut thats not a feature of -irc-
10:21:06speachyand indexed by googleee.
10:21:10buZzits a feature of humans
10:21:31speachyYes, but enough projjects out there need that functionality and have to reinvent the same wheels
10:21:51speachyMatrix, Jabber etc are messaging services first, with group chat bolted onto the side.
10:21:55buZzas kirvesAxe said, they've had 35 years time to practise
10:22:28buZzmy biggest gripe with that matrix spam , is the 'reply format'
10:22:37buZzits so dissonant to -anything- that happens on IRC
10:23:10speachyand messaging is not something I want to haave to completely cede over to $bigtech/$bigtelco or otherwise tie to a physical device that can get lost, stolen, or damaged.
10:23:17buZzalmost like they never even -used- irc before they fought to abuse it to veign usage
10:23:54buZznumbers in that article dont lie :P the 'libera bridge' were used by ~10k matrix users and ~30k irc users
10:24:01buZzhence, most ppl use irc with irc
10:24:23buZzi totally understand people want aids, but matrix is not a aid for irc, just a burdon
10:24:36speachyI know sevveral large communities that rely on that bridge bbbbeing there.
10:25:02buZzright, so it didnt even exist before?
10:25:04speachy(sorry about the duplicate letters. I keep getting random input lag here)
10:26:51buZzah well, pretty offtopic for here
10:26:57speachyIRC is "old school" −− its users are comfortable with its warts but it's a significant barrier to entry for everyone else.
10:28:09speachyTrue, it is kinda offtopic, but on the other hand, it's something Rockbox has a vested interest in −− we have so few contributors, and if there are things we can do to remove someee of the initial pain points, it's in our own longer-term interest.
10:28:30speachy(And I say that as the inevitable Mr.Somebody that will probably have to perform that work...)
10:30:24buZzalso an option is not relying on prefab bridges
10:30:42speachyyeah, that's what the current path forward appears to be.
10:30:56speachyI intend to opt into that stuff.
10:31:20buZzthats using the prefab bridge then?
10:31:43buZzyou can do -portalled- with your own bridge
10:31:47speachya more focused bridge than the 'we automagically bridge EVERYTHING'
10:31:49buZzor -plumbed- with the prefab
10:32:37speachywhen details are available I'll see what it entails and what the "price" is.
10:35:50speachyheh. even keeping our logbot going has entailed a non-trivial amount of work.
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16:18:42solrizewow glad this channel is still around. this looks interesting:
16:20:47speachyinteresting PCB shape.
16:22:00solrizeyeah i don't understand the purpose of that shape
16:22:44solrizewonder if that pcb trace on the right is supposed to be a touch sensor
16:24:56speachywe've talked about using an ESP32 before; it's not a terribly good candidate for a port, even at their highest end.
16:25:29speachyI think that trace is meant to have a membrrane-type button on top.
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18:13:37braewoods_speachy, the impression i get is the best situation is probably running as a Linux application on a Linux ARM board that somehow has the right features to be a viable mp3 player.
18:14:08braewoods_which probably means a phone SoC or other mobile device being repurposed
18:14:10speachywhat makes a viable mp3 player is the physical form factor (&enclosure)
18:14:23braewoods_yea, that and the hardware being viable for it too.
18:14:24speachyanything else is frankly just a toy.
18:15:54braewoods_most systems have proprietary battery solutions but i've always wondered if you could build one that used USB HID POWER instead.
18:16:49speachyHID power is just a data/control plane for charging; you'd still need onboard power management.
18:21:08speachyand, at minimum, a design that isn't predicated on having a 5V supply.
18:26:27 Join massiveH [0] (~massiveH@2600:4040:a99f:1f00:e9af:cc7c:fa46:b659)
18:27:41speachyThe act of porting RB to a random Linux target is pretty trivial. The pain is adapting that target to a new form factor.
18:28:13braewoods_yea, it just seems like the most likely situation given economics.
18:28:18speachyoh, to a lesser extent, providing a clean integration/installation process.
18:28:39speachyeconomics means our only real option is to adapt existing player hardware.
18:28:42braewoods_it's too bad there's not as much interest in rockbox as there is in the retro scene.
18:29:09speachyheh, the "retro scene" is also nearly entirely depenedent on piracy.
18:29:33braewoods_well, one might say the same about the music people would put on a player.
18:29:52braewoods_i was mostly thinking in terms of hardware.
18:30:11braewoods_i was watching the progress on the commander x16.
18:30:29speachyonce upon a time, that was arguably true, but today... one has actual choices wheere to buy music.
18:30:48speachywhereas the retro stuff, nearly none of it is available commercially.
18:31:06braewoods_right, and since audio CDs are still just as usable as they were 50 years ago...
18:31:08speachy(and when it is, it's not sold for use on those platforms)
18:31:37speachyhow many people have dumped their own ROMs? :)
18:32:07braewoods_kinda funny how out of all the old media storage types, optical disks have outlasted all of their now dead competitors
18:32:25braewoods_in terms of finding stuff that can read them.
18:33:04speachynone of its "successors" ever amounted to much; they cost more for no benefit.
18:33:22speachybecause it turns out the Mk I human ear really does suck
18:34:29speachyand, heh, the number of "audiophiles" that go on and on about compression artifacts end up playing things via bluetooth anyway. :D
18:34:33braewoods_it's weird seeing all the stuff people are doing to keep antiquated systems running.
18:35:05braewoods_old vintage PCs being outfitted with flash based replacements for their bulky hard drives.
18:35:39speachywell, folks have always had questionable hobbies. it's their time and money, after all.
18:35:55braewoods_I'd sooner just emulate it. :D
18:36:03speachyheck, rockbox's current existance an example of that questionable mentality.
18:38:37braewoods_speachy, you been reading up on C23?
18:38:47braewoods_not that a lot of it would apply to rockbox anytime soon
18:39:30speachynot really; it seemed like the goall was to pull C closer to C++'s awfulness.
18:39:48braewoods_well it has some extra preprocessor features.
18:39:56braewoods_one of which seemed particularly interesting
18:40:16braewoods_#embed. But GCC doesn't yet implement it.
18:40:37braewoods_it's useful for converting binary files into a C compatible array.
18:41:08braewoods_but honestly i kinda had the feeling it would have been better to just add that as a compiler feature.
18:41:21braewoods_instead of a preprocessor.
18:41:56braewoods_i saw potential in it for applications that want to embed binary data directly into their executable.
18:42:11braewoods_to date that has required extra effort from the build system to achieve.
18:43:52speachy#embed is the only feature I've considered useful, but since we already have tooling to achieve somethign similar...
18:44:06speachygreat for newer efforts though
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