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#rockbox log for 2023-08-09

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03:22:29Nyaa_bilgus, bl808 is probably a better target than esp32
03:23:23Nyaahttps://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Ox64
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03:32:53Nyaaalso the class d amp is for the haptic feedback engine
03:32:57Nyaain the one you linked
03:33:26Nyaait uses a linear resonance actuator so you could in theory use it as a crappy speaker
03:34:58jssfr_bilgus, wasn't the issue with ESP cores that they have too little ram?
03:36:31Nyaayeah it has 8MB of ram
03:36:37Nyaathe bl808 has 64
03:37:31jssfrI still have a electrosmith daisy on my shopping list for some rockbox tinkering
03:39:24Nyaaneat, BL808 is still better both hardware-wise and cost-wise though lol
03:40:39Nyaa[though you would need an I2S DAC if you get a BL808, still cheaper overall than the daisy even including one of those though lol]
03:41:04jssfrbl808 is an entirely new architecture tho
03:41:47Nyaayeah, but that also gives an excuse for trimming out a lot of cruft
03:42:57jssfrfair
03:43:14 Join advcomp2019_ [0] (~advcomp20@user/advcomp2019)
03:43:17jssfrthen again, I'm not good at analogue stuff, so I'll appreciate a board with good DAC and analogue stages already there.
03:44:05Nyaathe I2S bit is digital so you'd only need to pick out a good DAC to pair with it
03:45:13NyaaWolfson, for example, makes quite a few of those
03:45:54Nyaa[though the better a DAC you get, the more expensive it'll b e]
03:46:46 Quit advcomp2019 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
03:47:28Nyaatechnically cirrus now but yeah
03:49:13jssfrright, but the analogue side of the DAC, filters, headphone connectors, stuff like that (I'd go with the daisy pod for experimentation. Even more $$, but has buttons and jacks)
03:49:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
03:53:10Nyaano idea how the quality is but https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097PZQPMM looks like it would work just fine
03:55:30jssfrhm, interesting idea to use pi addons
03:55:33jssfrfor i2s
03:55:45Nyaai mean, i2s is i2s, the only thing that makes it pi is the header
03:55:50jssfryep
03:55:55jssfrhadn't considered that so far honestly
03:59:35Nyaathe only annoying bit with the ox64 is that you need a usb UART/TTL adapter to program it
04:00
04:00:04Nyaabut if you've done hardware stuff before you probably already have one of those, if not several
04:01:46jssfrright
04:02:33Nyaa[or a device that has UART]
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04:09:38Nyaahmm, yeah SID playback just does not seem to work correctly on ipodvideo
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04:34:43Nyaa[at least on the 32MB ram model, not sure about the 64MB one]
05:00
05:27:56*Nyaa shrugs
05:28:04Nyaai might as well poke around that voice generation code
05:29:04Nyaaspeachy, do you know how to use git bundles, i prefer them over plain patches because they preserve pgp signatures on commits [and i somewhat insist that my commits remain signed if merged in]
05:29:24Nyaa[they're not difficult to use lol, just a slightly different workflow really]
05:30:20Nyaaa git bundle is basically an export of git objects, can be a commit, several commits, or an entire repository
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07:52:57speachyI don't know if gerrit supports git bundles as you describe them, and that's what we use for our workflow.
07:55:30speachyNyaa: as for SID, early this year we switched to using cRSID, but there have been other changes that would have hurt performance on slower targets (and older ipods are probably the slowest we support, oddly enough)
07:57:22speachy_bilgus: BTW, most of that ESP32's RAM is "PSRAM" ie spi-attached. So horrid latency. Also IIRC the hardware is limited to talking to 4MB at a time, so we'd have to bank-switch which is not... ideal.
07:59:24jssfrthat would also apply to the Ox64 target, right?
07:59:31jssfr(the wiki page says "embedded 64MB PSRAM memory"
08:00
08:01:42speachyI'm not sure exactly what that means. The ESP32's PSRAM is a separate spi-attached chip, but this might be embedded DRAM that pretends to be SRAM from the system's perspective?
08:02:09speachydepends on how it's attached internally. As long as it's not stuck going through an internal serial interface it ought to be ok
08:03:30speachyrunning rockbox as a linux application would be the quickest approach towards something demonstrable.
08:04:00speachy(bringing up a new bare metal CPU arch would be a lot of effort)
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08:09:36speachyI _think_ it's a SiP approach −− ie the pSRAM is not part of the main die. (and supposedly you can get it with 32MB flash and 1GB psram)
08:10:15speachyI wonder if the radio is usable without a massive binary library running on the main CPU
08:12:41speachyhuh, 3 cores with wildly different capabilities.
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08:17:38speachyand PSRAM clock is up to 200MHz. A lot better than the ESP32, but it's still gonna be relatively slow. It's probably going to end up roughly on par with our higher-end ARM targets.
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08:20:00speachyBL808 has an onboard audio codec that supports line level output and a 10-band EQ, huh.
08:26:51speachyI still think teh Daisy Seed is a better rb port candidate. :D
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08:31:04Nyaaoh yeah i forgot about the built in codec on the BL808
08:35:15*Nyaa tries a build from 1 year ago to see if it doesn't have the SID freezing issue
08:35:44Nyaa[that was the newest pre-crsid build the web archive had cached lol]
08:39:25Nyaaplays perfectly fine
08:40:35Nyaaso, 2021-07-21: sid playback works fine; current: sid playback makes device unusably unresponsive
08:40:59speachyit's probably the cRSID change from early 2023.
08:42:13Nyaayeah i see it, that change happened on 2023-02-07
08:42:52Nyaadoes the second cpu in these ipods get used at all
08:43:12Nyaa[well, second core]
08:48:39Nyaaif not than perhaps making the sid playback threaded would fix it
08:51:26Nyaaquickest way i could think of doing that which would hopefully not require too major of changes would be to run the audio generation on secondary core and 6502/6510 emulation on primary core
08:55:48Nyaa[at least, if I'm remembering correctly, SID playback is similar to NSF playback in that both require being able to execute actual 6502 instructions]
08:56:53*Nyaa looks at the sid playback code
08:57:51Nyaayep, there's a CPU emulation section
08:59:24Nyaait also looks to be pure interpreter which means there are potential optimisations to be made there
09:00
09:08:02Nyaaguess i'll try to get a local build environment working
09:13:51Nyaa[why does the dev environment script try to download ISL twice?]
09:15:33speachydon't see why it would even attempt unless you're building multiple toolchains. and if you are, it'll used a cached copy instead of re-downloading it.
09:16:12Nyaafirst run, picked ARM, it tried to download ISL twice [though it used the cached copy second time]
09:17:08Nyaabinutils => ISL => gcc => GMP => MPFR => MPC => ISL => [building]
09:18:17speachymulti-stage GCC build?
09:19:44Nyaauh, no idea, that was the order it downloaded things, all i did was run it and select a to set up the arm version lol
09:20:09 Quit benjaoming (Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in)
09:20:14Nyaabuild completed, lets see if it works lol
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09:20:59Nyaa[build of the toolchain completed i mean, building rockbox now]
09:21:37Nyaadone, time to test if it runs
09:25:35Nyaatakes longer to copy over than it took to build lol
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09:31:06Nyaa"ver: rolling" i think it worked lol
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09:49:27Nyaawell, i decided to try building with -O3 instead of -Os just to see if anything would change, and it's no longer unusably unresponsive, but still extremely slow and playback buffer keeps running out
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09:51:10Nyaa[honestly i'm surprised it even booted with -O3, was expecting it to immediately crash]
09:56:23speachymight be worth compiling just the SID code with -O3
09:56:32speachy(or even -O2)
09:57:41speachyand lookin at the makefile: $(CRSID) : CODECFLAGS += -O3
09:57:54Nyaaah, there's different makefiles for each?
09:58:00Nyaadoes it override the global variable
09:58:26Nyaa[what does setting the top level one change? it definitely made a difference, albeit not a big one]
09:58:40speachyit's all one invocation but there are nested makefiles lying around for different components
09:59:18speachythe top-level change sets teh default, but the codecs in particular usually override that with their own options
09:59:24Nyaaoh also lcd-16bit errors saying .rowstart and .nextpixel are already defined when compiled with -O3, for that one thing i had it compile it with -Os
10:00
10:00:05speachyI have some WIP changes to enable LTO, though it's currently limited to codecs and plugins
10:01:12Nyaawhich codecs already make use of both cpu cores
10:02:02speachyoffhand I don't know.
10:02:12Nyaaah, do you know at least one so i can look at it
10:02:38speachyI'd wager the basic mp3 stuff probably is
10:03:10speachywe can schedule threads independently regardless, but I don't think many codecs are explicitly multithreaded.
10:06:39speachymost of the benefit comes from simply pushing the audio codec to one core and everything else on the other.
10:07:12Nyaahmm, if it was already doing that, why would the interface get unresponsive
10:07:40speachyour OS/scheduling is quite primitive. :)
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10:10:01speachyfor the most part higher optimizations simply make the code too _large_, rather than exposing latent bugs/crashes.
10:11:29Nyaahm, makes sense, though probably depends on target too
10:12:09Nyaaalso given how old the compiler is, i would probably blame any optimisation crashes on the toolchain lol
10:12:25speachyby this point the codebase is pretty free of that stuff, especially as we use bleeding-edge toolchains on the sim targets which cover most of the codebase.
10:12:37Nyaaahh, well that makes sense
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10:15:01Nyaaif a good chunk of the codebase already works on newer toolchains, what prevents bumping to something newer than the nearly 10 year old gcc 4.9 series :p
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11:13:03speachyall the target-specific stuff, of course. Or rather, _testing_ that stuff out.
11:13:26Nyaalooks like the answer to that is: nothing, at least for ipodvideo
11:13:34speachybringing everything up to 4.9 (from a 4.0, 4.4, and 4.5) was quite an ordeal.
11:13:34Nyaai built it with gcc 13.2.0 and it seems fine
11:13:57speachywe do some tweaks to the arm toolchain (mainly along the lines of disabling exceptions in builtin code)
11:14:21Nyaaunless there's more shenanigans going on with the build script and it mixed 13.2.0 and 4.9.4 somehow
11:14:36speachyI have a bump to 8.5 ready to go, still some lingering warnings.
11:14:52Nyaai did have to add -fcommon to get it to build due to headers not using `extern` but other than that it built fine
11:15:15speachythe biggest hiccup is usually binutils, or rather, the linker. we have some pretty horrid stuff going on in our linker scripts.
11:17:54speachyI haven't been able to get anyone with an m68k or hosted arm target to smoke test my gcc8 builds.
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12:29:31Nyaahmm, i don't think i have any devices that fall under that lol
12:29:48Nyaahow were the optimisation levels for each codec picked btw
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12:30:58Nyaai tried -Ofast on a few and they seem to work fine lol
12:35:31speachy-Ofast is probably most relevant for floating point stuff
12:36:15speachycodec optimization was about balancing code size (ie "make it fit") with performance ("make it run fast enough")
12:36:37speachylarger code sizes often made things _slower_ due to hot codepaths not fitting in caches or things like that.
12:36:56speachythose flags probably _way_ predate even GCC4 toolchains fwiw.
12:41:48Nyaayeah, makes sense, i guess setting them to most optimal would be a per-target thing too
12:56:57speachythere's some of that too
13:00
13:09:07speachythere's a codec benchmark tool, that was used to tune things
13:16:37Nyaaapparently ipodvideo can drain battery faster than it charges
13:16:47Nyaaat least on usb
13:17:17Nyaaand i don't have one of those funny firewire charging cables
13:21:25Nyaahmmm "rating: 5-30V"
13:21:36Nyaausb power delivery to firewire power cable when lol
13:23:28speachythat's pretty common
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15:50:22Nyaaturns out i had to set charge on usb to force instead of on
15:51:09braewoods_nyaa: perhaps the device supports USB BCS but the charger or usb port doesn't?
15:54:06Nyaaan 18 year old ipod? i kinda doubt it would support something that was released 2 years after it was :p
15:55:34speachyit's realistically going to take a "PC" or at least something that can negotiate USB descriptors, or get limited to 200ma charging.
15:55:43braewoods_500ma you mean?
15:55:44Nyaa500ma*
15:55:49Nyaait's a 2.0 device not a 1.0 device
15:56:07braewoods_500ma was the limit for 1.0 too, afaik it didn't increase until 3.0, BCS, and more came out.
15:56:21Nyaaoh i thought 1.1 was what bumped the limit to 500
15:56:43Nyaatbf you never see 1.0 in like anything lol
15:57:03speachycorrection; it's 100 ma max without some sort of negotiation.
15:57:24braewoods_i was referring to the maximum allowed under early USB
15:57:39speachyusb 1.x maxed out at 500ma, yes.
15:57:54braewoods_same with 2.0, until it was extended with BCS and more.
15:58:04braewoods_allowing up to 1500
15:58:43braewoods_it's kinda funny to find USB to barrel jack cables today that can do voltage negotiation.
16:00
16:00:58Nyaalol
16:01:27braewoods_based on QC or PD.
16:01:43Nyaawho even uses QC anymore now that PD has been out for a while
16:02:03braewoods_you'd be surprised. a lot of stuff is still QC only.
16:02:14Nyaaplus the EU mandates PD after 2024 :p
16:02:21braewoods_it tends to be compatible with QC anyway to a degree.
16:02:35braewoods_or maybe devices just support both.
16:02:54Nyaaoh, i think i heard that the most recent QC spec is literally just PD but with like, one thing added that i doubt anyone uses lol
16:04:06braewoods_speachy, any ideas how to calculate surge current from farads?
16:04:28Nyaadon't you need to know the internal resistance too
16:05:31braewoods_probably. i was trying to figure out the surge current for a buck converter's input capacitor for finding a suitable switch, or is surge current not an issue for mechanical switches?
16:08:33Nyaayou should be able to just use ohm's law to find out the absolute maximum current it can release, voltage / internal resistance = maximum current
16:09:10braewoods_which is likely to be super high, given it is a dc power converter
16:09:54braewoods_the circuit voltage on the input ranges from like 20v to 30v.
16:14:07Nyaafor say, a 24v ceramic capacitor, peak output current would be around 1600 amps
16:14:37Nyaathough ceramic capacitors tend to not have very much charge capacity, so you're looking at fractions of a millisecond there
16:15:37braewoods_From what i'm reading the buck converter i was considering uses... "A 100 F, 50 V aluminium electrolytic capacitor located near
16:15:37braewoods_the input and ground pin provides sufficient bypassing."
16:16:01braewoods_sorry, uF (some fancy u)
16:16:06Nyaaµ
16:16:18braewoods_microfarads
16:16:26Nyaaaluminium?
16:16:31braewoods_yea that's what it says
16:18:30Nyaathose tend to have 2-7 ohms ESR so 7-25 amps
16:18:44Nyaa[at least for charging it]
16:19:44Nyaaif it's a low-ESR one, than 0.3-1.6 ohms are typical, so 31-167 amps
16:20:16braewoods_so probably nothing to fret about in terms of the initial arcing that occurs
16:20:45Nyaacan you see what model of capacitor it uses
16:20:49braewoods_for my inverters i prime the capacitors with a strong resistor before connecting the battery directly...
16:20:50Nyaawould be easier to just look up a datasheet
16:20:57braewoods_unfortunately not at present
16:21:33Nyaaswitching power supplies tend to use low-ESR ones for their higher output
16:21:51Nyaamore specifically, better ability to handle current ripples
16:22:12braewoods_does that matter if the input supply is a battery?
16:22:32Nyaais the output A/C?
16:22:53braewoods_No. In this case it's a LM2596 board.
16:22:59braewoods_a dc to dc buck converter
16:23:06Nyaaah, in that case i don't think so
16:24:06braewoods_i'm working on a battery project which has a box with integrated LED strip that is designed to run off 12v range directly but i wanted to install 24v battery.
16:24:24Nyaatbf generally it doesn't hurt to use overrated capacitors
16:24:27braewoods_only reason i'm considering a power converter.
16:24:56braewoods_the higher voltage would probably cause too much current to flow otherwise
16:25:45braewoods_the other option is to build a voltage divider circuit to cut it in half roughly
16:25:58braewoods_but that is probably harder to do and more limited
16:29:30Nyaacapacitors are weird
16:32:37Nyaabut anyway if you're worried about accidentally spot welding contacts together, low-ESR 100µF aluminium electrolytic capacitors can definitely do that
16:35:04Nyaa[though given how short lived the current spike is, the contacts usually don't stick too hard]
16:45:04braewoods_i may just use a thermistor
16:45:43braewoods_its resistance varies and can be used to deal with surge currents
16:45:57braewoods_slows down the capacitor charging
16:46:09braewoods_then returns to a more normal level
17:00
17:10:49Nyaaso it turns out that it is indeed the cpu emulation part of sid playback that's the problem
17:11:18Nyaarunning it at 1/10th the clockrate runs just fine
17:11:31Nyaathat said, it's also 10x slower lol
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