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| 03:22:29 | Nyaa | _bilgus, bl808 is probably a better target than esp32 |
| 03:23:23 | Nyaa | https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Ox64 |
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| 03:32:53 | Nyaa | also the class d amp is for the haptic feedback engine |
| 03:32:57 | Nyaa | in the one you linked |
| 03:33:26 | Nyaa | it uses a linear resonance actuator so you could in theory use it as a crappy speaker |
| 03:34:58 | jssfr | _bilgus, wasn't the issue with ESP cores that they have too little ram? |
| 03:36:31 | Nyaa | yeah it has 8MB of ram |
| 03:36:37 | Nyaa | the bl808 has 64 |
| 03:37:31 | jssfr | I still have a electrosmith daisy on my shopping list for some rockbox tinkering |
| 03:39:24 | Nyaa | neat, BL808 is still better both hardware-wise and cost-wise though lol |
| 03:40:39 | Nyaa | [though you would need an I2S DAC if you get a BL808, still cheaper overall than the daisy even including one of those though lol] |
| 03:41:04 | jssfr | bl808 is an entirely new architecture tho |
| 03:41:47 | Nyaa | yeah, but that also gives an excuse for trimming out a lot of cruft |
| 03:42:57 | jssfr | fair |
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| 03:43:17 | jssfr | then again, I'm not good at analogue stuff, so I'll appreciate a board with good DAC and analogue stages already there. |
| 03:44:05 | Nyaa | the I2S bit is digital so you'd only need to pick out a good DAC to pair with it |
| 03:45:13 | Nyaa | Wolfson, for example, makes quite a few of those |
| 03:45:54 | Nyaa | [though the better a DAC you get, the more expensive it'll b e] |
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| 03:47:28 | Nyaa | technically cirrus now but yeah |
| 03:49:13 | jssfr | right, but the analogue side of the DAC, filters, headphone connectors, stuff like that (I'd go with the daisy pod for experimentation. Even more $$, but has buttons and jacks) |
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| 03:53:10 | Nyaa | no idea how the quality is but https://www.amazon.com/dp/B097PZQPMM looks like it would work just fine |
| 03:55:30 | jssfr | hm, interesting idea to use pi addons |
| 03:55:33 | jssfr | for i2s |
| 03:55:45 | Nyaa | i mean, i2s is i2s, the only thing that makes it pi is the header |
| 03:55:50 | jssfr | yep |
| 03:55:55 | jssfr | hadn't considered that so far honestly |
| 03:59:35 | Nyaa | the only annoying bit with the ox64 is that you need a usb UART/TTL adapter to program it |
| 04:00 |
| 04:00:04 | Nyaa | but if you've done hardware stuff before you probably already have one of those, if not several |
| 04:01:46 | jssfr | right |
| 04:02:33 | Nyaa | [or a device that has UART] |
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| 04:09:38 | Nyaa | hmm, yeah SID playback just does not seem to work correctly on ipodvideo |
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| 04:34:43 | Nyaa | [at least on the 32MB ram model, not sure about the 64MB one] |
| 05:00 |
| 05:27:56 | * | Nyaa shrugs |
| 05:28:04 | Nyaa | i might as well poke around that voice generation code |
| 05:29:04 | Nyaa | speachy, do you know how to use git bundles, i prefer them over plain patches because they preserve pgp signatures on commits [and i somewhat insist that my commits remain signed if merged in] |
| 05:29:24 | Nyaa | [they're not difficult to use lol, just a slightly different workflow really] |
| 05:30:20 | Nyaa | a git bundle is basically an export of git objects, can be a commit, several commits, or an entire repository |
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| 07:52:57 | speachy | I don't know if gerrit supports git bundles as you describe them, and that's what we use for our workflow. |
| 07:55:30 | speachy | Nyaa: as for SID, early this year we switched to using cRSID, but there have been other changes that would have hurt performance on slower targets (and older ipods are probably the slowest we support, oddly enough) |
| 07:57:22 | speachy | _bilgus: BTW, most of that ESP32's RAM is "PSRAM" ie spi-attached. So horrid latency. Also IIRC the hardware is limited to talking to 4MB at a time, so we'd have to bank-switch which is not... ideal. |
| 07:59:24 | jssfr | that would also apply to the Ox64 target, right? |
| 07:59:31 | jssfr | (the wiki page says "embedded 64MB PSRAM memory" |
| 08:00 |
| 08:01:42 | speachy | I'm not sure exactly what that means. The ESP32's PSRAM is a separate spi-attached chip, but this might be embedded DRAM that pretends to be SRAM from the system's perspective? |
| 08:02:09 | speachy | depends on how it's attached internally. As long as it's not stuck going through an internal serial interface it ought to be ok |
| 08:03:30 | speachy | running rockbox as a linux application would be the quickest approach towards something demonstrable. |
| 08:04:00 | speachy | (bringing up a new bare metal CPU arch would be a lot of effort) |
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| 08:09:36 | speachy | I _think_ it's a SiP approach −− ie the pSRAM is not part of the main die. (and supposedly you can get it with 32MB flash and 1GB psram) |
| 08:10:15 | speachy | I wonder if the radio is usable without a massive binary library running on the main CPU |
| 08:12:41 | speachy | huh, 3 cores with wildly different capabilities. |
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| 08:17:38 | speachy | and PSRAM clock is up to 200MHz. A lot better than the ESP32, but it's still gonna be relatively slow. It's probably going to end up roughly on par with our higher-end ARM targets. |
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| 08:20:00 | speachy | BL808 has an onboard audio codec that supports line level output and a 10-band EQ, huh. |
| 08:26:51 | speachy | I still think teh Daisy Seed is a better rb port candidate. :D |
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| 08:31:04 | Nyaa | oh yeah i forgot about the built in codec on the BL808 |
| 08:35:15 | * | Nyaa tries a build from 1 year ago to see if it doesn't have the SID freezing issue |
| 08:35:44 | Nyaa | [that was the newest pre-crsid build the web archive had cached lol] |
| 08:39:25 | Nyaa | plays perfectly fine |
| 08:40:35 | Nyaa | so, 2021-07-21: sid playback works fine; current: sid playback makes device unusably unresponsive |
| 08:40:59 | speachy | it's probably the cRSID change from early 2023. |
| 08:42:13 | Nyaa | yeah i see it, that change happened on 2023-02-07 |
| 08:42:52 | Nyaa | does the second cpu in these ipods get used at all |
| 08:43:12 | Nyaa | [well, second core] |
| 08:48:39 | Nyaa | if not than perhaps making the sid playback threaded would fix it |
| 08:51:26 | Nyaa | quickest way i could think of doing that which would hopefully not require too major of changes would be to run the audio generation on secondary core and 6502/6510 emulation on primary core |
| 08:55:48 | Nyaa | [at least, if I'm remembering correctly, SID playback is similar to NSF playback in that both require being able to execute actual 6502 instructions] |
| 08:56:53 | * | Nyaa looks at the sid playback code |
| 08:57:51 | Nyaa | yep, there's a CPU emulation section |
| 08:59:24 | Nyaa | it also looks to be pure interpreter which means there are potential optimisations to be made there |
| 09:00 |
| 09:08:02 | Nyaa | guess i'll try to get a local build environment working |
| 09:13:51 | Nyaa | [why does the dev environment script try to download ISL twice?] |
| 09:15:33 | speachy | don't see why it would even attempt unless you're building multiple toolchains. and if you are, it'll used a cached copy instead of re-downloading it. |
| 09:16:12 | Nyaa | first run, picked ARM, it tried to download ISL twice [though it used the cached copy second time] |
| 09:17:08 | Nyaa | binutils => ISL => gcc => GMP => MPFR => MPC => ISL => [building] |
| 09:18:17 | speachy | multi-stage GCC build? |
| 09:19:44 | Nyaa | uh, no idea, that was the order it downloaded things, all i did was run it and select a to set up the arm version lol |
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| 09:20:14 | Nyaa | build completed, lets see if it works lol |
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| 09:20:59 | Nyaa | [build of the toolchain completed i mean, building rockbox now] |
| 09:21:37 | Nyaa | done, time to test if it runs |
| 09:25:35 | Nyaa | takes longer to copy over than it took to build lol |
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| 09:31:06 | Nyaa | "ver: rolling" i think it worked lol |
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| 09:49:27 | Nyaa | well, i decided to try building with -O3 instead of -Os just to see if anything would change, and it's no longer unusably unresponsive, but still extremely slow and playback buffer keeps running out |
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| 09:51:10 | Nyaa | [honestly i'm surprised it even booted with -O3, was expecting it to immediately crash] |
| 09:56:23 | speachy | might be worth compiling just the SID code with -O3 |
| 09:56:32 | speachy | (or even -O2) |
| 09:57:41 | speachy | and lookin at the makefile: $(CRSID) : CODECFLAGS += -O3 |
| 09:57:54 | Nyaa | ah, there's different makefiles for each? |
| 09:58:00 | Nyaa | does it override the global variable |
| 09:58:26 | Nyaa | [what does setting the top level one change? it definitely made a difference, albeit not a big one] |
| 09:58:40 | speachy | it's all one invocation but there are nested makefiles lying around for different components |
| 09:59:18 | speachy | the top-level change sets teh default, but the codecs in particular usually override that with their own options |
| 09:59:24 | Nyaa | oh also lcd-16bit errors saying .rowstart and .nextpixel are already defined when compiled with -O3, for that one thing i had it compile it with -Os |
| 10:00 |
| 10:00:05 | speachy | I have some WIP changes to enable LTO, though it's currently limited to codecs and plugins |
| 10:01:12 | Nyaa | which codecs already make use of both cpu cores |
| 10:02:02 | speachy | offhand I don't know. |
| 10:02:12 | Nyaa | ah, do you know at least one so i can look at it |
| 10:02:38 | speachy | I'd wager the basic mp3 stuff probably is |
| 10:03:10 | speachy | we can schedule threads independently regardless, but I don't think many codecs are explicitly multithreaded. |
| 10:06:39 | speachy | most of the benefit comes from simply pushing the audio codec to one core and everything else on the other. |
| 10:07:12 | Nyaa | hmm, if it was already doing that, why would the interface get unresponsive |
| 10:07:40 | speachy | our OS/scheduling is quite primitive. :) |
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| 10:10:01 | speachy | for the most part higher optimizations simply make the code too _large_, rather than exposing latent bugs/crashes. |
| 10:11:29 | Nyaa | hm, makes sense, though probably depends on target too |
| 10:12:09 | Nyaa | also given how old the compiler is, i would probably blame any optimisation crashes on the toolchain lol |
| 10:12:25 | speachy | by this point the codebase is pretty free of that stuff, especially as we use bleeding-edge toolchains on the sim targets which cover most of the codebase. |
| 10:12:37 | Nyaa | ahh, well that makes sense |
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| 10:15:01 | Nyaa | if a good chunk of the codebase already works on newer toolchains, what prevents bumping to something newer than the nearly 10 year old gcc 4.9 series :p |
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| 11:00 |
| 11:13:03 | speachy | all the target-specific stuff, of course. Or rather, _testing_ that stuff out. |
| 11:13:26 | Nyaa | looks like the answer to that is: nothing, at least for ipodvideo |
| 11:13:34 | speachy | bringing everything up to 4.9 (from a 4.0, 4.4, and 4.5) was quite an ordeal. |
| 11:13:34 | Nyaa | i built it with gcc 13.2.0 and it seems fine |
| 11:13:57 | speachy | we do some tweaks to the arm toolchain (mainly along the lines of disabling exceptions in builtin code) |
| 11:14:21 | Nyaa | unless there's more shenanigans going on with the build script and it mixed 13.2.0 and 4.9.4 somehow |
| 11:14:36 | speachy | I have a bump to 8.5 ready to go, still some lingering warnings. |
| 11:14:52 | Nyaa | i did have to add -fcommon to get it to build due to headers not using `extern` but other than that it built fine |
| 11:15:15 | speachy | the biggest hiccup is usually binutils, or rather, the linker. we have some pretty horrid stuff going on in our linker scripts. |
| 11:17:54 | speachy | I haven't been able to get anyone with an m68k or hosted arm target to smoke test my gcc8 builds. |
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| 12:29:31 | Nyaa | hmm, i don't think i have any devices that fall under that lol |
| 12:29:48 | Nyaa | how were the optimisation levels for each codec picked btw |
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| 12:30:58 | Nyaa | i tried -Ofast on a few and they seem to work fine lol |
| 12:35:31 | speachy | -Ofast is probably most relevant for floating point stuff |
| 12:36:15 | speachy | codec optimization was about balancing code size (ie "make it fit") with performance ("make it run fast enough") |
| 12:36:37 | speachy | larger code sizes often made things _slower_ due to hot codepaths not fitting in caches or things like that. |
| 12:36:56 | speachy | those flags probably _way_ predate even GCC4 toolchains fwiw. |
| 12:41:48 | Nyaa | yeah, makes sense, i guess setting them to most optimal would be a per-target thing too |
| 12:56:57 | speachy | there's some of that too |
| 13:00 |
| 13:09:07 | speachy | there's a codec benchmark tool, that was used to tune things |
| 13:16:37 | Nyaa | apparently ipodvideo can drain battery faster than it charges |
| 13:16:47 | Nyaa | at least on usb |
| 13:17:17 | Nyaa | and i don't have one of those funny firewire charging cables |
| 13:21:25 | Nyaa | hmmm "rating: 5-30V" |
| 13:21:36 | Nyaa | usb power delivery to firewire power cable when lol |
| 13:23:28 | speachy | that's pretty common |
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| 15:50:22 | Nyaa | turns out i had to set charge on usb to force instead of on |
| 15:51:09 | braewoods_ | nyaa: perhaps the device supports USB BCS but the charger or usb port doesn't? |
| 15:54:06 | Nyaa | an 18 year old ipod? i kinda doubt it would support something that was released 2 years after it was :p |
| 15:55:34 | speachy | it's realistically going to take a "PC" or at least something that can negotiate USB descriptors, or get limited to 200ma charging. |
| 15:55:43 | braewoods_ | 500ma you mean? |
| 15:55:44 | Nyaa | 500ma* |
| 15:55:49 | Nyaa | it's a 2.0 device not a 1.0 device |
| 15:56:07 | braewoods_ | 500ma was the limit for 1.0 too, afaik it didn't increase until 3.0, BCS, and more came out. |
| 15:56:21 | Nyaa | oh i thought 1.1 was what bumped the limit to 500 |
| 15:56:43 | Nyaa | tbf you never see 1.0 in like anything lol |
| 15:57:03 | speachy | correction; it's 100 ma max without some sort of negotiation. |
| 15:57:24 | braewoods_ | i was referring to the maximum allowed under early USB |
| 15:57:39 | speachy | usb 1.x maxed out at 500ma, yes. |
| 15:57:54 | braewoods_ | same with 2.0, until it was extended with BCS and more. |
| 15:58:04 | braewoods_ | allowing up to 1500 |
| 15:58:43 | braewoods_ | it's kinda funny to find USB to barrel jack cables today that can do voltage negotiation. |
| 16:00 |
| 16:00:58 | Nyaa | lol |
| 16:01:27 | braewoods_ | based on QC or PD. |
| 16:01:43 | Nyaa | who even uses QC anymore now that PD has been out for a while |
| 16:02:03 | braewoods_ | you'd be surprised. a lot of stuff is still QC only. |
| 16:02:14 | Nyaa | plus the EU mandates PD after 2024 :p |
| 16:02:21 | braewoods_ | it tends to be compatible with QC anyway to a degree. |
| 16:02:35 | braewoods_ | or maybe devices just support both. |
| 16:02:54 | Nyaa | oh, i think i heard that the most recent QC spec is literally just PD but with like, one thing added that i doubt anyone uses lol |
| 16:04:06 | braewoods_ | speachy, any ideas how to calculate surge current from farads? |
| 16:04:28 | Nyaa | don't you need to know the internal resistance too |
| 16:05:31 | braewoods_ | probably. i was trying to figure out the surge current for a buck converter's input capacitor for finding a suitable switch, or is surge current not an issue for mechanical switches? |
| 16:08:33 | Nyaa | you should be able to just use ohm's law to find out the absolute maximum current it can release, voltage / internal resistance = maximum current |
| 16:09:10 | braewoods_ | which is likely to be super high, given it is a dc power converter |
| 16:09:54 | braewoods_ | the circuit voltage on the input ranges from like 20v to 30v. |
| 16:14:07 | Nyaa | for say, a 24v ceramic capacitor, peak output current would be around 1600 amps |
| 16:14:37 | Nyaa | though ceramic capacitors tend to not have very much charge capacity, so you're looking at fractions of a millisecond there |
| 16:15:37 | braewoods_ | From what i'm reading the buck converter i was considering uses... "A 100 F, 50 V aluminium electrolytic capacitor located near |
| 16:15:37 | braewoods_ | the input and ground pin provides sufficient bypassing." |
| 16:16:01 | braewoods_ | sorry, uF (some fancy u) |
| 16:16:06 | Nyaa | µ |
| 16:16:18 | braewoods_ | microfarads |
| 16:16:26 | Nyaa | aluminium? |
| 16:16:31 | braewoods_ | yea that's what it says |
| 16:18:30 | Nyaa | those tend to have 2-7 ohms ESR so 7-25 amps |
| 16:18:44 | Nyaa | [at least for charging it] |
| 16:19:44 | Nyaa | if it's a low-ESR one, than 0.3-1.6 ohms are typical, so 31-167 amps |
| 16:20:16 | braewoods_ | so probably nothing to fret about in terms of the initial arcing that occurs |
| 16:20:45 | Nyaa | can you see what model of capacitor it uses |
| 16:20:49 | braewoods_ | for my inverters i prime the capacitors with a strong resistor before connecting the battery directly... |
| 16:20:50 | Nyaa | would be easier to just look up a datasheet |
| 16:20:57 | braewoods_ | unfortunately not at present |
| 16:21:33 | Nyaa | switching power supplies tend to use low-ESR ones for their higher output |
| 16:21:51 | Nyaa | more specifically, better ability to handle current ripples |
| 16:22:12 | braewoods_ | does that matter if the input supply is a battery? |
| 16:22:32 | Nyaa | is the output A/C? |
| 16:22:53 | braewoods_ | No. In this case it's a LM2596 board. |
| 16:22:59 | braewoods_ | a dc to dc buck converter |
| 16:23:06 | Nyaa | ah, in that case i don't think so |
| 16:24:06 | braewoods_ | i'm working on a battery project which has a box with integrated LED strip that is designed to run off 12v range directly but i wanted to install 24v battery. |
| 16:24:24 | Nyaa | tbf generally it doesn't hurt to use overrated capacitors |
| 16:24:27 | braewoods_ | only reason i'm considering a power converter. |
| 16:24:56 | braewoods_ | the higher voltage would probably cause too much current to flow otherwise |
| 16:25:45 | braewoods_ | the other option is to build a voltage divider circuit to cut it in half roughly |
| 16:25:58 | braewoods_ | but that is probably harder to do and more limited |
| 16:29:30 | Nyaa | capacitors are weird |
| 16:32:37 | Nyaa | but anyway if you're worried about accidentally spot welding contacts together, low-ESR 100µF aluminium electrolytic capacitors can definitely do that |
| 16:35:04 | Nyaa | [though given how short lived the current spike is, the contacts usually don't stick too hard] |
| 16:45:04 | braewoods_ | i may just use a thermistor |
| 16:45:43 | braewoods_ | its resistance varies and can be used to deal with surge currents |
| 16:45:57 | braewoods_ | slows down the capacitor charging |
| 16:46:09 | braewoods_ | then returns to a more normal level |
| 17:00 |
| 17:10:49 | Nyaa | so it turns out that it is indeed the cpu emulation part of sid playback that's the problem |
| 17:11:18 | Nyaa | running it at 1/10th the clockrate runs just fine |
| 17:11:31 | Nyaa | that said, it's also 10x slower lol |
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| 18:52:41 | | Join massiveH [0] (~massiveH@2600:4040:a982:c800:27f2:68af:c6b:c898) |
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| 19:46:20 | | Quit Schimon (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) |
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icon identifies that the person is a core developer (has commit access).