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#rockbox log for 2023-08-13

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00:54:55 Join IrisToriKodi [0] (~IrisToriK@
00:55:21IrisToriKodiHi all!
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03:00:45IrisToriKodiyoo wassup
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09:09:11Nyaathe database update finally completed lol
09:10:09Nyaasubsequent incremental ones only drain the battery by like 37% [full => 63%] lol
09:13:07Nyaaassuming rockbox already accounts for battery voltage curve, the battery charges to 81% its original capacity
09:31:50Nyaawell, i guess that's one way of calculating percentage
09:36:40Nyaawhy are battery percentages handled this way? inaccurate voltage readings between hardware or something?
09:37:43Nyaabattery chemistry, cutoff voltages, and expected discharge rate should be enough to calculate a fairly accurate percentage across batteries
09:39:47_bilguseh my limited knowledge of the battery systems there is a base table that was run on new hardware to establish a curve using battery bench (
09:40:19Nyaai mean, the tables method works but it's a fairly naïve way of doing it
09:40:54_bilgussimple beats complex but we are open source so.. Patches Welcome
09:41:19Nyaanot always, the table method will fail if someone swaps out a battery for a type of a different chemistry :p
09:41:39_bilgusthere are methods of accounting for that
09:42:27Nyaaanyway i suspect inaccurate voltage readings are likely a problem too, will look at the tables across devices and see if they seem consistent
09:42:30_bilgussome even have multiple battery sizes but IIRC anyone can battery bench and apply their own curve
09:42:51Nyaathe sizes matter way less than the chemistry
09:42:53_bilgusI don't remember if that has to be compiled in (probably)
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09:44:20Nyaadoes the battery benchmark thing drain it at maximum power draw
09:44:41_bilgusif you choose to do so
09:45:01Nyaai mean, for the tables that are in the code
09:45:16_bilgustypically as the instructions state you play continuously till it dies
09:48:30_bilguschoose a high load codec if you want to really draw it but I think the benches are done on the corpus available here:
09:50:03_bilgusbasically 0db headphones connected (put in a box.. the test files get grating) and start the plugin start a endless playlist of test files return in 2-14 hours
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09:57:49_bilgusprobably geaverts could answer that he is a Rb sage
09:58:18_bilgusmore thoroughly that is..
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15:05:15gevaertsHmm, not sure
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17:25:54Mode"#rockbox +v speachy" by ChanServ (
17:26:28speachyNyaa, there's the "database tool" which can be built for each individual target. runs on the cmdline, builds up the database for the files present, and exits.
17:27:00Nyaahonestly that should probably be part of rockbox utility lol
17:27:44speachyvery well might already be, but there are at least some per-target variations in the db tool.
17:28:04Nyaaoh maybe i'm blind and didn't see it
17:28:38speachyand IIRC the ipod video asic is essentially a video engine with a small CPU bolted to the side to facilitate I/O.
17:31:15speachythe battery curve is just a table, run the battery bench to generate the underlying data, when it finally dies you have a total runtime, divide that by 11, and take the battery level at each of those to determine what goes into the table.
17:31:46Nyaayeah, also the product brief for the chip implies it can be reprogrammed to be a decoder for most file formats
17:32:08Nyaa[most audio file formats anyway]
17:32:35Nyaa[i mean, it straight up says it can be reprogrammed]
17:32:36speachyobviously if the battery gets swapped there's no way to tell what the new curve would be in advance. it's not like random chinesium vendors say what goes into what they sell. and if that's even trustable.
17:32:57speachySure, but the operative question is if it can be reprogrammed by anyone other than Broadcom.
17:33:25speachy(and/or anyone who hasn't signed eighteen kilos of legal paperwork with Broadcom)
17:33:42 Quit jacobk (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
17:33:45Nyaahmm, given they open sourced VideoCore 4, i wonder if they would be willing to publish the VideoCore 1/2 stuff if emailed
17:34:48Nyaaafaik they own most of the tech used in VC01/VC02 so they should be able to publish most of the reference manual
17:34:57 Quit Bobathan_ (Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb2+b1 -
17:35:12speachyI don't think they've ever released anything on the prior generations.
17:35:21speachyIIRC VC4 was specifically designed so that it could be opened.
17:36:11speachyeg it might be effectively impossible to open the older ones without effectively breaking DRM on everything.
17:36:13 Quit othello7 (Quit: othello7)
17:36:16Nyaai mean, the only bits i don't see them being able to publish are the SD/MemoryCard segments
17:37:13Nyaathe primary patent for MPEG-4 expired last year so they should be able to publish a good chunk of the info on that too [unless it's verbatim copied from an mpeg-4 reference manual, then it would still be copyright so they couldn't]
17:37:24speachyeh, thjere's nothing special about an SD/MMC controller.
17:38:02Nyaayeah but it's under patent so they can't release the documentation, they can however put "see SD specification <version>" and a list of registers
17:39:03speachythe actual register-level stuff in the controller is pretty limited; it's really little more than "transfer X bytes and tell me when it's done"
17:39:26Nyaaplus for the ipod i have a feeling those lines in the chip kinda go nowhere lol
17:39:27speachythe details on what to transfer are defined in the SD spec, and thus outside the realms of the ASIC.
17:39:35Nyaabut would be neat to add an SD mod to it
17:39:45Nyaagiven it has the hardware potential for it
17:40:14speachyI mean, far be it for me to tell folks what to spend their time doing
17:40:20speachybut ... why?
17:40:26Nyaawhy not lol
17:40:40speachyfar more capable hardware is already out there
17:40:51speachyand wouldn't require PCB hacking
17:41:38speachyeven strictly considering DAPs, why not just use a modern player?
17:42:11Nyaai mean, some people just like the aesthetic of the ipod lol
17:42:27speachyeg the current batch of Ingenic-based stuff can probably do MPEG4 entirely in software with plenty of oomph to spare
17:43:21speachyand the era where the novelty factor of "ooo, video on a 1.5" screen" mattered ended over fifteeen years ago
17:43:26Nyaathere wouldn't be mods to put 2TB of storage in the classic ipods otherwise
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17:44:27speachyReplacing the spinning rust with solid state storage is win-win, directly improves the primary use case for a DAP.
17:45:03speachylower power consumption, more reliable, more space, cheaper, etc.
17:45:35speachybut video.. especially in the era of smartphones with 6+ inch screens?
17:46:08Nyaai think you missed the part where it says the chip can be used to decode _audio_
17:46:38Nyaaand can function as a MIDI synthesiser
17:47:17speachywell, so can rockbox. and rockbox has a lot more RAM for sample storage than the VC2.
17:47:35Nyaayes but power consumption
17:47:51Nyaaif the multimedia coprocessor uses less power to do the same task than using it would be beneficial to battery life
17:48:01speachyyes but several man-months of software effort. :D
17:48:10speachy(and that's _with_ complete docs)
17:49:10Nyaaeh, it couldn't hurt to email broadcom and ask if they're willing to make a public release of the documentation either way
17:49:28speachyif they even respond at all, I'd be shocked
17:50:27speachyin all seriousness, go for it.
17:50:49Nyaaeven a partial release would help a lot with being able to use the chip for something lol
17:50:50speachybut it's a ton of work, and won't be generally useful outside of the ipod 5gen
17:51:03Nyaanot quite
17:51:21Nyaaidk if rockbox targets any other devices with VC02 chips but there are a few
17:51:43speachynothing rockbox targets
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17:53:16Nyaagameboy advance port when /s
17:53:57speachybetter off targeting one of those modern emulate-everything handhelds.
17:53:59Nyaa[ features a VC02 chip]
17:54:49speachya 3DS would make more sense. At least that has some hardware oomph.
17:54:58speachy(and an SD slot IIRC)
17:55:12Nyaait does, yes, but it's also a kinda boring target
17:55:44Nyaawhat about an 1st/2nd gen iphone / 1st gen ipod touch lol
17:55:51Nyaaboth of those are trivial to boot unsigned code on
17:56:05speachypure touchscreen interfaces blow.
17:56:12Nyaa[and also a target i have to be able to test again]
17:56:54speachyit's also why there's zero interest in the majority of modern higher-end DAPs, which are effectively low-end android tablets with fancy audio hardware.
17:57:32Nyaaoh i have a kinda interesting DAP somewhere but pretty sure the specs of it are way worse than all rockbox targets lol
17:57:51speachybut hey, patches welcome
17:58:10Nyaathe non-touch modern DAPs tend to just use very lower power microcontrollers for the interface with dedicated hardware audio decoder chips as far as i've seen
17:59:08speachymodern non-touch DAPs are nearly universally based on very low-end purpose-built ASICs with a tiny amount of RAM and hardware decoder engines, yeah.
18:00:02Nyaathey also tend to have worse DACs than the ipodvideo lol
18:00:03speachythe next step up usually uses an external DAC bolted onto a commodity microcontroller,
18:00:33speachysometimes with an FPGA to do some additional audio stuff
18:00:59speachyafter that you have the likes of the EROS Q/K and its clones
18:01:33speachynext step beyond that involves balanced outputs and tube amps
18:01:50Nyaai think the gimmick with the DAP i have somewhere was that it has a socketed audio amp chip
18:02:39speachyI really question the usefulness of that, given that it's nearly guaranteed to be used with compressed audio and not-terribly-isolated power supplies.
18:02:53speachybut hey, whatever sells.
18:03:39Nyaait was some weird chi-fi thing lol
18:03:55 Quit lebellium (Quit: Leaving)
18:04:10speachyChina is doing a hipster speedrun
18:04:47speachyinteresting how the trend is back to dedicated controls instead of touchscreens for DAPs
18:05:58speachy"if I wanted to listen to streaming music to bluetooth headphones and use a touchscreen interface, why not just use the phone I'm already carrying?"
18:07:57Nyaaoh hey i found what model it was, it actually has decent audio hardware, i think the biggest issue was the software on it was trash
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18:08:03Nyaait's an ACMEE MF-01
18:08:36Nyaai vaguely remember finding out what cpu it has and it was an SoC with almost no RAM
18:10:11Nyaai wonder if i even still have it lol
18:11:39Nyaait was more useful as a USB DAC than as a DAP lol
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19:04:28speachyI think that MF-01 is based on an STM32 microcontroller. Don't recall which series offhand, but it was a but on the underpowered side.
19:04:36speachy(still more oomph than the ipods though!)
19:04:55speachynot a lot of RAM but more than those cheap shovelware players
19:06:01speachythere are several variants of that design out there too, IIRC. with different audio paths and screens (one with a resistive touchscreen IIRC)
19:07:10speachythere are two button variations; one with five on the front, and one with a dedicated rotary encoder.
19:09:23speachyheh, and all have crappy battery life due to those power-hungry DACs/AMPs.
19:13:25speachytheir MF02s likely has more RAM, if only because that higher-res screen requires a far larger framebuffer.
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21:07:13Nyaanice, batterybench completed, lets see if my estimate of ~81% was right
21:10:26Nyaa~8 hours 40 minutes,
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23:03:46Nyaaalso fwiw it looks like the stock ipod os uses a 10-90 bracket for charging
23:03:53Nyaaseems 4.1v is reported as 100%
23:30:03Nyaatime to fiddle with piezo code lol
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