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#rockbox log for 2023-12-02

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11:46:38Trzyzet@tm512 I knew the guy which was trying to tell me when you convert flac/wav file to DSD that DSD file sounds better than original file before converting
11:56:21hactar|antthe tangara looks pretty nice
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13:03:42buZzhactar|ant: yes
13:03:48buZzi hope we can get rockbox running on it :)
13:03:56buZzESP32 -should- be plenty fast i think
13:04:08buZzis it on sale yet?
13:04:17buZzno :(
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13:40:15_bilgushow much ram though? 4MB? thats not much but was doable with the clips 8MB would be better which I'd almost think they have to be using since lua is involved
13:41:18_bilgusnext issue is how fast is that RAM I see its PSRAM which speachy mentioned the other day I think
13:44:03_bilgusand finally I see what appears to be a capacitive touch pad is that just protected with conformal coating? I guess you could sandwich some plastic in there, hopefully they have grooves in the bezel openings to sandwich an oring up against the screen and touch pad
13:44:36_bilgusotherwise I don't see it lasting long in my general enviroment
13:44:47buZz_bilgus: there are 16MB external ram versions of ESP32
13:45:03buZzPSRAM on octal SPI is pretty fast
13:45:42buZzi doubt thats conformal coating btw, likely -only- soldermask
13:45:53_bilguseven worse
13:46:05buZzsure, its just a esp32 devboard with a fancy-ish case
13:46:39buZzbtw, esp8266 even can run lua interpreter with less than 1MB ram
13:46:39hactar|anthow come the ipods had so much ram?
13:46:43_bilgusI'm all for anything that gets people using RB
13:46:51_bilgusthat HD
13:46:59hactar|antjust as buffer?
13:47:04_bilgusthey got battery life by buffering
13:47:14buZz_bilgus: yeah i'm excited for it, hope we can get it operational with it
13:47:46buZzrockbox on such a 'inadequate mp3 player' imho is wayyy cooler than some 'my first ipod emu' that they provide
13:47:53_bilgusI'm slightly disappointed to not see that device using eLUA
13:48:06buZzthe device doesnt have to , its just a devboard
13:48:27buZz'nodemcu' etc are a line of esp8266 devboards with elua preflashed
13:48:28_bilgusI'm saying out of the box thats like its whole onus
13:48:40buZzi dont really see this player as a product
13:48:46buZzeven though its on crowdsupply
13:49:01buZzits just a 'look i made a devboard!' slight upscaling
13:49:37_bilgusfine w/ me those cases being out there could lead to something rb related later
13:50:53buZzyeah i wish they were out too
13:52:04_bilguswhat we need to do is get people competing on getting RB in weird places playing doom :p
13:52:46_bilgusRB on my rigol playing doom lol
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14:07:11 Quit termac (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
14:08:34_bilgusIn our current form I think you'd just be putting a bootloader in flash then loading rb from the sd card we don't really have anything with flash that I'm aware of but it'd be possible to move some things to ROM if one were motivated
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16:08:08buZz_bilgus: why on earth would you need any bootloader
16:08:18buZzyou can just start rb directly, no bootloader required
16:20:14 Join stgiga [0] (~stgiga@
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16:29:50stgigaI want to submit a pull request to update the version of GNU Unifont used to UnifontEX, which DOES have a BDF version and also supports Plane 1 (which is unsupported by the 15-year-old version on the Github repository. In fact, that version is missing MANY characters from Plane 0 compared to UnifontEX which is made from MUCH newer versions of
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16:46:57Mode"#rockbox +v speachy" by ChanServ (
16:50:29speachythe ESP32 module in that part has an 8MB QSPI PSRAM. However, there's only 4MB of address space for the PSRAM mapped region. So... yeah. It _might_ be possible to play MMU games to bankswitch on the fly but that's not something I'd assume is feasible starting out. So it's going to be a 4MB port initially.
16:51:41speachythe reason to put rockbox in flash (as opposed to ram loading it off the SD card) is to free up RAM. We really don't want to have to execute out of PSRAM, for example.
16:52:16speachywe'd need the onboard SRAM for performance-critical stuff like codecs, framebuffer, etc.
16:53:53speachyit's more than a "devboard with a fancy case" −− it uses an off-the shelf ESP32 module, but the carrier board is their own design.
16:55:01speachystgiga: rockbox uses gerrit:
16:56:00stgigaI do want to know how Rockbox reads font information
16:58:42speachytm512: wrt the xDuoo X3; we don't implement 24/32-bit audio or DSD even when the hardware is technically capable. We do support >48KHz if the hardware can handle it.
16:59:20speachyI use an X3 as my daily driver, primarily due to the line out and the wonky buttons which make using it by touch quite easy.
16:59:42stgigaLooking at the existing BDF from 15 years ago, I noticed something VERY nice: that version of Unifont actually doesn't require me to edit the BDF at all from "UnifontExMono", because a family name/etc field is not even in that 15yo BDF
17:00:01stgigaso I can just do a PR replacement of the BDF and be done with it
17:01:40speachystgiga: does the fonts/README tell you what you need to know?
17:02:40stgigaThat does
17:04:18tm512speachy: seems like a good device though I'm kinda on a budget, since the more expensive a device is the harder it gets to justify it over just using my phone
17:06:26stgigaThe main problem however is that, on principle, I never reveal my real-life name online for my own personal safety
17:07:22tm512kinda worried this is going to be like the time I picked up a Cubieboard for my first time playing around with ARM stuff, had about a week where I thought it was neat while I set up a Linux from Scratch system, eventually realizing the thing had no practical use for me
17:07:31speachyrockbox has had to deal with legal threats in the past, and we have to be able to show the provenance of every contribution.
17:07:32tm512at least an MP3 player is easier to imagine uses for
17:08:24stgigaIF I were to attempt to satisfy the requirement for my real name, like I do on ALL sites that require one, I won't actually use the name on my birth certificate.
17:08:27speachytm512: budget-wise it'll be hard to beat one of those new-old-stock Fuze+ or an older ipod.
17:09:21stgigaProvenance of every contribution? I don't know what that means
17:09:43stgigaalso, I still have my deadname on my birth certificate
17:09:51stgigamy chosen name does not currently legally exist
17:10:15stgigaAnd I certainly do not want to dox myself
17:10:30stgigaI *almost* ended up on Kiwi Farms
17:12:10stgigaGiven this, I find it too risky to *actually* reveal my name.
17:12:17speachyI'm nto sure if this particular scenario has come up in the past or not, but we have to cover our own posteriors too.
17:13:59tm512speachy: microUSB support on the Fuze+ *and* the microSD slot are definitely bonuses over the iPods even though I kinda like the look of the iPods more. Fuze+ really does look like a product of its time
17:14:45stgigaSomething I will divulge is that *accidentally*, my online handle begins with the first two letters of my real last name
17:14:50stgigathis was not intentional
17:15:15speachyI _think_ in the past we've allowed a public psudonym to go into CREDITS as long as we have a private record of the real name.
17:16:31speachyIf that's something acceptable to you, then I will confer with the (*ahem*) elders who had to deal wth the legal BS in the past and see if that will work.
17:17:11stgigaI'm *not far off* from being an LGBTQ+ person related to a homophobic Supreme Court justice
17:17:13 Join PheralSparky [0] (~Shawn@user/shawn/x-4432647)
17:17:22speachyI think I can speak for everyone here and unequivocably state we have no desire to out your deadname or cause you any personal grief.
17:19:53***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
17:20:42stgigaWell, nothing says that I have to be the one to put the file in.
17:22:36speachyTrue enough, as long as that other person is willing to take the credit/blame.
17:25:03speachytm512: It's possible that with more work, the touchpad on the Fuze+ can be made to be quite nice. But I remember it infuriating me all the time back when I had one. To the point where I threw it across the room in frustration and destroyed the screen.
17:27:47speachyit's a shame though; with a traditional button arrangement (or wheel like the Fuze/v2 had) the + would have been one of the greats IMO.
17:27:55stgigaThe good news is that the BDF in Rockbox already actually is missing the misc information fields that FontForge (what I used) puts in a BDF, and those don't erase my existence. Also, I have the BDF on my Github, and I have it on my personal Github Pages repo so it can be directly grabbed. It's in the right filename, and I'm also happy to state that
17:27:56stgigait is roughly the same size as the existing BDF. Also, I have an old iPod Nano (the one that has color photos and a classic click wheel but no camera).
17:28:03speachythe factory firmware was quite bad wrt the touchpad too.
17:29:41tm512speachy: well, returns are an option with this seller, which would be an annoyance to have to do, but if the touchscreen is so bad that it gets in my way too much, I could return it and opt for an iPod
17:30:20speachystgiga: roughly the same size but with much greater character/glyph coverage? that seems .. improbable.
17:30:36stgigaUnifont by default has hex box placeholders
17:30:57tm512probably would go for an iPod and replace the HDD eventually. I'm guessing the fact that they use a proprietary connector is less of a liability than with less popular devices
17:31:27tm512guessing replacement cables will be available for a long time
17:33:31tm512less of a liability compared to the older Sansa devices, specifically
17:34:58stgigaWhere should I post the link to the BDF?
17:34:59tm512Fuze+ with microUSB is like the second best connector it could have. I'd prefer miniUSB, but I guess it was getting less cool to use that connector when the Fuze+ was made
17:37:10speachyit's the other way around −− it has a mini-B connector, not the latter micro-B connector.
17:39:43stgigaI put the BDF link in the forum post I made on the topic
17:44:50tm512speachy: hmm, wikipedia says micro, and googling "sansa fuze plus usb connector" brings up like shop listings for microUSB cables
17:46:16stgigaSeeing as how I'm 21 (and thus unable to have legally changed my name prior to COVID), revealing the name on my legal records is something that is a problem, given the nature of it, in combination with other factors. I don't mind not being directly attached to a commit. Not to mention that my experience with Git itself has never been a fun one (I
17:46:16stgigaremember trying to push stuff to my Github over command-line, and it was never fun, and I frequently messed up.)
17:47:03stgigaI actually haven't eaten today so I need to go AFK right now.
17:48:18speachytm512: ... all hail wikipedia. I blame my grumbling stomach.
17:49:34tm512even if wikipedia were wrong and I bought it under the assumption it was microUSB, I do have some miniUSB cables kicking around somewhere
17:50:13tm512use one to connect my keyboard to my PC so that one is tied up but I'm pretty sure I've got at least one or two more
17:51:31speachynope, you're right, it has a micro-usb. could have sworn it was old enough to have a mini instead
18:02:46tm512I wonder what kind of work would need to be done to improve touchpad support on the Fuze+, because I do know C, but I don't have a lot of experience with bare metal programming
18:04:20tm512I did at one point start work on programming my own kernel, but never got to the point of stuff like device drivers
18:06:24tm512I remember reading something about how the OF supports gestures but rockbox does not. I'm guessing in the OF that's like really basic stuff like scrolling up and down to navigate or scrolling left and right to seek through a track?
18:08:43speachyIIRC we never implemented any sort of gesture support. the touchpad is effectively a 9x9 grid.
18:08:53speachyer, 3x3 (== 9 total positions)
18:10:43tm512also, huh, older iPods are indeed pretty budget friendly I guess
18:10:45speachythere's a decade-old proof-of-concept patch in gerrit that tries to add a sort of scrollbar
18:11:08speachyyeah, that's a good price
18:11:13tm512searched for 4th-gen specifically because I remember looking at the newer ones and by 5th-gen it looked like the price nearly doubles
18:11:27speachyeven if the original HDD dies on you, you can replace it with a CF or SD card pretty easily, and batteries are plentiful.
18:12:55speachyanother option is to look for a 2nd-gen ipod mini. identical hardware to the 4th-gen grey scale
18:13:34speachyjust smaller form factor. trivial to replace the hard drive with a CF card (or with an adapter, SD card)
18:14:11 Quit lebellium (Quit: Leaving)
18:14:39tm512for a scroll gesture on the Fuze+ I'm guessing you'd just sample the position at a certain rate and store them in a buffer, then loop through the buffer and look for patterns like significant change in X or Y but negligible change in the other direction
18:17:28speachyconcepturally straightforward, but quite challenging to do (well) with minimal input lag and impact on what's playing
18:18:12speachyIIR the touchpad hardware doesn't provide any native support for such things.
18:19:18tm512but yeah maybe I'll have to consider an iPod. losing the microSD slot is unfortunate, but as long as rockbox lets me mount the internal storage as a mass storage device, it doesn't make a practical difference except in cases where I'd need to replace it. battery replacements being plentiful is an upside, and while it's been quite some time, I remember liking the physical UI of iPods
18:19:36tm512the scroll wheel is really intuitive
18:20:29speachyapple didn't invent the DAP, but they were the first to put real thought into the UI/UX.
18:28:21tm512is it difficult to crack into one of the iPod Classics to replace the HDD? also, oof, I didn't realize how expensive CF cards are
18:28:33tm512microSD with an adapter might be the way to go
18:28:47stgigaThey make SD-to-CF adapters
18:29:17stgigaDankPods has done some videos on massive storage upgrades
18:29:25 Join jacobk [0] (
18:30:13stgigaDankPods put *4* 1TB SD cards in
18:30:56stgigain theory, once Kioxia 2TB microSD cards ship, one could put those in (2TB is typical FAT32 max)
18:31:12speachykeep in mind that we hav a 2TB upper limit per drive.
18:31:22stgigaThat's more than enough
18:31:42speachy(ie the limitation of both SDXC and FAT32)
18:32:06tm512kinda surprised by the pricing of CF cards. I wonder if it's a supply/demand thing, because the pricing of SD cards demonstrates that flash memory really isn't that expensive these days, like certainly not $40+ for 64GB
18:32:23tm512looked like I could get a 64GB microSD for like $10
18:32:28stgigaand that's why when I can afford it, and those become cheap, I have intentions to stock up on 2TB cards for use in my 3DS, DSi (running Hiya), Wii, SDGecko, Switch, and such
18:32:35stgigaCF cards have a LOT more pins
18:32:39speachyCF isn't really produced in any volume any more.
18:32:45stgigathey are effectively a small implementation of IDE
18:32:48speachyit's ATA natively, yeah.
18:32:53stgigathere is such a thing as CF HDDs
18:33:07stgigathe amount of pins needed is high
18:33:35stgigaCF these days is used for some Canon cameras
18:33:36tm512well it's because IDE is a parallel interface, yeah
18:33:46stgigathe extra wiring costs money
18:34:07stgigaSD is only really a few pins, while CF is an array of pins
18:34:24tm512I know CF cards are popular as HDD replacements for vintage hardware, because the adapters just pass through the CF pins to their corresponding 2.5" or 3.5" IDE HDD pins
18:34:55stgigaIn fact, the GameCube SD Card adapter uses the SPI mode of SD-family cards, which still works even on SDXC
18:35:36stgigaSD cards have 9 pins
18:35:52stgiga(SDUC will add more, but we haven't hit max SDXC yet)
18:36:14stgigaBasically, SD is a serial interface, CF is parallel
18:36:16speachywe do support GPT partitioning now, but havne't bothered to generate new bootloader builds. Also, factory firmware will keel over anyway.
18:36:36stgigaAlso, CF adapters are sometimes used industrially
18:36:49stgigabecause many pieces of equipment use IDE still
18:40:17speachySDUC support in of itself is actually pretty easy, but for it to be usable we'd have to move the storage core to 64-bit addressing and deal with that fallout.
18:40:59stgigaApparently Kioxia said they would be releasing 2TB SDXC this year but they haven't happened yet
18:41:14stgigaMy guess is that the tolerances are not high enough
18:42:00speachythat would also mean updating the existing FAT (etc) code to handle the 64-bit addressing. that way we can at least utilize >2TB storage by use of multiple partitions.
18:46:19 Quit davisr (Quit: yeehaw)
18:58:27stgigaSDUC will not support SPI
18:58:43stgigaWhich is used by the GameCube
19:01:13hactar|antis the entire nds library even close to 2tb
19:01:33stgigathough, in the GC case, we control how the card is accessed, so ignoring the 38bit LBA is theoretically possible
19:01:38hactar|anti mean they did make like 5 billion titles
19:01:39hactar|antbut still
19:02:09stgigaEntire 3DS library is 3TB
19:02:20hactar|antyeah you mentioned dsi
19:02:34stgigaDSi will only read full FAT32 if you use Hiya
19:02:43stgigait normally cuts off at 2GB
19:03:28hactar|anti stopped using hiya in favour of unlaunch+twilightmenu
19:03:40hactar|anthandles my 64gb card just fine
19:03:42stgigaI use Twilight menu
19:03:48stgigaentire DS library: 400GB
19:04:00stgigaa little under, but if you count DSi-exclusive, 400
19:04:22stgigaif you add entire libraries for emulators the DSi can run...
19:04:35stgigaLet's just say that hitting 2TB may be hard
19:05:09stgigaBasically, 2TB cards would be godsends for retro enthusiasts
19:05:26stgigaespecially due to them having the same pin count as original SD cards
19:06:05hactar|antpersonally i have no desire to have entire libraries on my devices. such tedious scrolling
19:06:07hactar|antbut that's just me
19:06:17stgigaWell, it's also for the purposes of homebrew
19:06:23stgigaas well as MPlayer ports
19:06:47stgigaThe idea being that you could have games AND media on a single card
19:07:09 Join massiveH [0] (~massiveH@2600:4040:a982:c800:1c6a:d8b1:1863:3d16)
19:07:22hactar|antmy first portable media player with a gbasp with a gba movie player i kid you not
19:07:26hactar|antawful, awful, awful
19:07:30hactar|antbut it did get me into homebrew
19:07:41stgigaSo, I feel like, in the case of power users, when 2TB becomes cheap, people will buy up massive amounts of them
19:07:54stgigabecause flashcarts for even older systems still use FAT32
19:08:11stgigaand then there's industrial use
19:09:43stgigaOh fun fact: at 4kb sectors and 64kb clusters, FAT32 can hit 16TB volume size
19:12:14stgigaand there's FAT32+ which supports 256GB file size but in a clever way
19:12:44stgigathough, for all intents and purposes, most devices (and phones) would tolerate 2TB with 4GB file size on SDXC the best
19:15:13stgigaGood news: my iPod Nano is a 1st-gen
19:19:55***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
19:26:15tm512re: FAT32, I wonder whether exFAT would be too complicated for implementation in rockbox
19:26:37tm512I guess ultimately there's just not a pressing need for it
19:27:11speachyyep, so far there's not much point.
19:27:33stgigaThe only person who would try would be DankPods
19:29:59speachyit's moot because of the lack of (stock) OS support for anything over 2TB.
19:30:29stgigaUltimately, I think that the ability to display songs with stuff like emoji in the titles is pressing, because people actually are making those
19:30:46stgigathe entire discography of FUNERALPARTY does this
19:30:53tm512so I'm still leaning towards this Fuze+, for the sake of getting new old stock. it's low-risk with this seller's return policy, which includes just not liking the device
19:30:57speachythough I wonder if those iflash quad adapters do the right thing when their combined storage is over 2TB.
19:31:17tm512will just have to see if the touchpad makes me want to pull my hair out
19:32:35tm512perhaps I will attempt to contribute to gesture support
19:36:45stgigaMy forum post is in the "Feature Ideas" section
19:37:27stgigaand it has the link to the BDF (named and everything), just in case IRC complains
19:38:41tm512kinda worried that the touchpad will be tolerable for browsing the menu and controlling playback but will really suffer when it comes to games. though I figure stuff like running Doom on this device wouldn't be much more than a party trick. I can't see how it would be tolerable even on a device with physical buttons
20:18:18speachythe problem I had with it was that you couldn't really locate where you needed to touch... without touching it.
20:18:33speachyso inevitably you touched the wrong place.
20:19:02speachy(or without looking at it first)
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21:00:24WilliamCSo, what is the best way to use an MP3 player while working out?
21:01:22WilliamCNot sure I can find a strap for the one I just bought, I might just end up putting it in pocket
21:07:22speachyit's apparently common to tuck/clip it to an armband.
21:07:39speachybut that depends entirely on operator preference and the nature of the workout, eh?
21:08:17hactar|antdepends on your workout lol
21:14:58stgigaFor context, the font version bump is a 1-file swap. It just can't be done by me, due to bad luck with the Git command in the past, as well as the fact that it is unsafe for me to reveal my name due to certain factors. According to policy, this means I can't do the command myself. If only the Github was not read-only. But is the name *actually*
21:14:58stgigalegally verified?
21:15:00 Quit jacobk (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
21:15:41stgigabecause if it isn't, then I don't have to have my deadname immortalized
21:16:23WilliamCI bought a Surfans F20, it's larger, all around, than my AGPtek Rockr
21:16:34WilliamCSo I don't think I can reuse my armband
21:17:50WilliamCHad issues with the 3.5 jack not working right anymore, it didn't like to pair with my headphones, and the battery life is decreasing, I believe.
21:18:00 Join jacobk [0] (
21:19:00WilliamCAll of the new music players are either really high end, or really low end, this is about the only mid range one I could find
21:19:17stgigaI remember in 2010 getting a cheap iPod clone with a blue LCD
21:19:21stgigait was silver and black
21:19:32stgigait ran on AAA batteries
21:19:57***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
21:21:23WilliamCMy first MP3 player was like that
21:21:38WilliamCMine ran on a single AA battery
21:22:54speachystgiga: there's no "verification". We just need to know where to direct the lawyers should they come knocking (again).
21:25:10stgigaand the name in question that legally belongs to me right now is my deadname
21:26:36stgigaso based on THAT premise, it's probably best that I'm not the submitter
21:26:50stgigaThat makes the decision for me, I guess
21:30:42WilliamCI feel like I got in the middle of something complicated.
21:46:33stgigaBasically: I have a one-file change I want to do (adds Plane 1 Unicode support via bumping the ancient 15yo GNU Unifont version already present to UnifontEX), but I can't do the commit myself due to being nonbinary and having a problematic extended family, and having bad luck with Git itself. So, you are right, it IS complicated. I don't mind not
21:46:34stgigabeing the one who submits the pull request, because the BDF still has all the documentation I wrote for the font in FontForge in tags that were unused by the 15yo version currently in Rockbox that don't affect anything.
21:52:13stgigaThere IS one thing I can do though, and that is make a GH pull request to the Poretsky builds, whose latest commit is only two behind the main Rockbox branch
21:52:28stgigaand this is a good stopgap measure
21:52:51WilliamCShocked that altering a font would be that involved.
21:54:23speachyit's really not. stgiga has um, special circumstances that clash with longstanding rockbox policy.
21:59:54WilliamCFeel like the entire MP3 player scene has died down a lot since smart phones took over.
22:11:32speachyyep, smarphones hollowed out that market.
22:15:24speachyleaving shovelware junk at the bottom and "oxygen depleted gold plated optical connectors to reduce jitter on your tube amps" at the high end.
22:18:15speachy(...who then play their ultra high quality DSD files over bluetooth)
22:18:56speachy(ask me how I really feel)
22:24:07speachyhah, the font update broke gerrit.
22:32:13rb-bluebotBuild Server message: New build round started. Revision 58ec8c62bb, 304 builds, 9 clients.
22:32:13rb-bluebotfonts: Update the 16px GNU Unifont to a derivative of 15.0.06-JP by Solomon Peachy
22:34:03WilliamCspeachy, Audiophiles are an easy mark.
22:40:06 Part WilliamC (Leaving)
22:42:15rb-bluebotBuild Server message: Build round completed after 602 seconds.
22:42:18rb-bluebotBuild Server message: Revision 58ec8c62bb result: All green
23:19:59***Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
23:29:55 Quit jacobk (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
23:30:02_bilgusfuze plus has usb micro
23:30:39_bilgusfuze v2 has a special cable and the clip+ has a mini usb
23:37:17 Quit m01 (Quit: Konversation terminated.)
23:40:07 Join m01 [0] (
23:50:20 Quit Moriar (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)

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