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07:27:11 | gevaerts | That "new mp3 player" post is interesting |
07:27:33 | gevaerts | "I know how big a battery I want. I don't know anything else yet" :) |
07:56:14 | speachy | yeah, talk about putting the cart before the horse. |
08:00 |
08:05:36 | gevaerts | Also the idea of 8GB RAM does make me less confident that they know what they're talking about |
08:06:45 | speachy | upwards of 1/2 TB of onboard flash and a 4" multitouch screen too |
08:10:09 | gevaerts | It sounds like a great device. Not sure about the mp3 player though :) |
08:10:24 | speachy | there are plenty of existing android-based DAPs to choose from |
08:12:52 | speachy | I also suspect, along with the gross overestimation of the specs needed for a DAP, the costs involved in designing/producing the hardware (especially a machined case) are grossly underestimated. |
08:13:05 | speachy | tl;dr: doesn't know what they're talking about. |
08:15:21 | speachy | I mean, look at what the tangara folks are still going through to get theirs done. |
08:19:29 | speachy | I kinda wished they'd aimed a bit higher. |
08:20:23 | dook | I've met a few people in the iPod community who've tried to get me to make UI mockups for their device kickstarters, but they all never have an idea of how difficult it actually is to make even a "simple" device |
08:21:07 | dook | The playdate is a good example, it took Panic 4 years to go from a final prototype to production |
08:22:38 | gevaerts | Basically ask anyone who's done a thing like that |
08:24:37 | gevaerts | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/spectrumnext/zx-spectrum-next-issue-2/posts/3364778 is a fun example of the sort of thing that can happen |
08:25:08 | gevaerts | They were about ready for production, and then "WIthout notice, Xilinx stopped shipping Spartan-6 chips, and there’s no timeline to when they will resume doing so" |
08:27:08 | gevaerts | Of course if you want to design a player for your own use as a hobby project and you don't care about this thing called "production", things are very different |
08:34:14 | speachy | ...even a 3800 unit order is peanuts for a company the size of Xilinx |
08:35:16 | speachy | the tangara folks have done pretty well so far with the software, but they are nearly 100% reliant on the various vendor frameworks, including some that are binary-only. |
08:35:47 | gevaerts | You have to pick your priorities and compromise on the rest |
08:35:53 | speachy | of course |
08:36:26 | speachy | hard to argue with the $4 cost of the core ESP32 SoM they used. :) |
08:41:03 | gevaerts | Oh yes. And it's probably fine for the use they have in mind |
08:41:55 | gevaerts | But it *does* show the economics of the concept. I'm sure they'd like to have it cheaper, but total cost is so much more than just BoM... |
08:43:43 | speachy | keeping the case/mechanical complexity down was clearly a huge part of that design |
08:45:06 | speachy | but to put things in perspective, that $270K they raised on crowdsupply equates to about 1100 players at $250. |
08:46:01 | gevaerts | Exactly. And that thing would probably cost $50 at really large scale |
08:46:18 | speachy | that's barely enough volume to kick in the first tier of economies of scale (ie 1K units) whereas you need 10K units to really be alble to bring your costs down. |
08:47:04 | speachy | you can buy a lot of refurbished+SSD ipod for that price. |
08:48:18 | gevaerts | There's a *lot* of costs in the process. I don't know how much they want to try to do under the radar, but things like ESD testing, CE certification, ... are not a given |
08:48:56 | gevaerts | I also imagine worldwide shipping of a device with a battery might provide some extra headaches |
08:50:30 | speachy | yep. And in Europe it's not just the CE but also mandatory 2 year minimum warranties and more. |
08:51:05 | speachy | Tangara is based in AU but they're using a large distibutor (Mouser) for fulfillment. so that to me implies that they're gona need some of these certifications/tests. |
08:51:20 | speachy | eh, speculation is easy. |
08:51:56 | gevaerts | We're speculating based on what other comparale projects have done though, so I'd say it's all valid :) |
08:53:26 | speachy | I still think the best approach for a "rockbox dap" is to place a large-ish order of an existing design (ErosQ?) and make it contingent on supplying schematics. |
08:53:36 | gevaerts | My thinking is that at that scale, I can easily see $100 per device go to all those things |
08:53:39 | gevaerts | Yes |
08:54:15 | speachy | along with silkscreening our logo on the case. :) |
08:57:25 | speachy | really goes to show you how much up-front investmnet (eg) Sansa had to put up before they sold their first (eg) Clip. |
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09:08:07 | speachy | ugh, what is this modern fascination with using dual DACs for audio output? |
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09:57:50 | berber_l51 | good ol question again which are the models of digital audio players you recommend that have an sd card slot and work with rockbox well? so far, i see sandisk sansa clip+ (which is prone to breaking), xduoo x3 (hard to get), agio eros k (hard to get), aigo eros q (ok to get), and classic ipods with sd card mod. it seems like there are none that |
09:57:50 | berber_l51 | work with currently produced models, right? |
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10:09:41 | * | cockroach is using a classic ipod with sd card mod |
10:52:04 | berber_l51 | i wonder how well the shanling q1 works. it says "is generally stable for audio playback" on the rockbox page. don't know what that means, "generally stable", since for everything audio playback related it says that it works. maybe what is referred to as "generally stable" is the fact that it seems to have unresponsive ui with >= 176.4 KHz |
10:52:04 | berber_l51 | playback and too much DSP |
10:53:05 | berber_l51 | but that one is also not that easy to get anyway... |
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11:31:30 | spork | it works great |
11:32:33 | spork | works fine for me with 192kHz flac |
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12:09:00 | speachy | berber_l51: there are many, many clones of the eros q/k models, including several sold today. surfans f20 and hifiwalker h2 come to mind. |
12:09:31 | speachy | the q is still sold too but not easily found in the US |
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21:18:36 | __builtin | Hi friends! Duty calls, and so I'm back to write some rockbox code. |
21:18:55 | __builtin | ... someone wants a new sgt-puzzle merged :) |
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22:35:12 | dconrad | speachy, I suspect there may be something wrong with the wiki auto-update scheme, I had some changes that sat without being propagated to the public page for some weeks |
22:35:33 | dconrad | hopefully it's something simple |
22:35:53 | dconrad | (I just made some more changes, so we can see if those propagate tomorrow afternoon I suppose) |
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23:37:36 | __builtin | _bilgus_: Re: your message from April 1 about release checklists, are you referring to https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/ReleaseChecklist? If not, 3.14 is a *looong* time ago for me to remember. |
23:42:56 | __builtin | speachy, _bilgus_: re: the amaze port, looks like you already merged it - happy to see that! |
23:47:55 | __builtin | While we're on the topic of ancient stuff in the backlog, at one point (probably 2016-2017?) I made some decent progress on a Prince of Persia port: g#2634 |
23:47:58 | rb-bluebot | Gerrit review #2634 at https://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/c/rockbox/+/2634 : Port of SDL 2.0.12 and SDLPoP (WIP) by Franklin Wei |
23:49:52 | __builtin | Ah, it's more recent than I initially remembered. |
23:53:43 | __builtin | But yeah, I remember getting it to barely run in the simulator, and abruptly crash on target. If anyone's looking for a fun port (of both SDL and Prince of Persia), feel free to take that over. |