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#rockbox log for 2024-05-27

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07:27:11gevaertsThat "new mp3 player" post is interesting
07:27:33gevaerts"I know how big a battery I want. I don't know anything else yet" :)
07:56:14speachyyeah, talk about putting the cart before the horse.
08:05:36gevaertsAlso the idea of 8GB RAM does make me less confident that they know what they're talking about
08:06:45speachyupwards of 1/2 TB of onboard flash and a 4" multitouch screen too
08:10:09gevaertsIt sounds like a great device. Not sure about the mp3 player though :)
08:10:24speachythere are plenty of existing android-based DAPs to choose from
08:12:52speachyI also suspect, along with the gross overestimation of the specs needed for a DAP, the costs involved in designing/producing the hardware (especially a machined case) are grossly underestimated.
08:13:05speachytl;dr: doesn't know what they're talking about.
08:15:21speachyI mean, look at what the tangara folks are still going through to get theirs done.
08:19:29speachyI kinda wished they'd aimed a bit higher.
08:20:23dookI've met a few people in the iPod community who've tried to get me to make UI mockups for their device kickstarters, but they all never have an idea of how difficult it actually is to make even a "simple" device
08:21:07dookThe playdate is a good example, it took Panic 4 years to go from a final prototype to production
08:22:38gevaertsBasically ask anyone who's done a thing like that
08:24:37gevaerts is a fun example of the sort of thing that can happen
08:25:08gevaertsThey were about ready for production, and then "WIthout notice, Xilinx stopped shipping Spartan-6 chips, and there’s no timeline to when they will resume doing so"
08:27:08gevaertsOf course if you want to design a player for your own use as a hobby project and you don't care about this thing called "production", things are very different
08:34:14speachy...even a 3800 unit order is peanuts for a company the size of Xilinx
08:35:16speachythe tangara folks have done pretty well so far with the software, but they are nearly 100% reliant on the various vendor frameworks, including some that are binary-only.
08:35:47gevaertsYou have to pick your priorities and compromise on the rest
08:35:53speachyof course
08:36:26speachyhard to argue with the $4 cost of the core ESP32 SoM they used. :)
08:41:03gevaertsOh yes. And it's probably fine for the use they have in mind
08:41:55gevaertsBut it *does* show the economics of the concept. I'm sure they'd like to have it cheaper, but total cost is so much more than just BoM...
08:43:43speachykeeping the case/mechanical complexity down was clearly a huge part of that design
08:45:06speachybut to put things in perspective, that $270K they raised on crowdsupply equates to about 1100 players at $250.
08:46:01gevaertsExactly. And that thing would probably cost $50 at really large scale
08:46:18speachythat's barely enough volume to kick in the first tier of economies of scale (ie 1K units) whereas you need 10K units to really be alble to bring your costs down.
08:47:04speachyyou can buy a lot of refurbished+SSD ipod for that price.
08:48:18gevaertsThere's a *lot* of costs in the process. I don't know how much they want to try to do under the radar, but things like ESD testing, CE certification, ... are not a given
08:48:56gevaertsI also imagine worldwide shipping of a device with a battery might provide some extra headaches
08:50:30speachyyep. And in Europe it's not just the CE but also mandatory 2 year minimum warranties and more.
08:51:05speachyTangara is based in AU but they're using a large distibutor (Mouser) for fulfillment. so that to me implies that they're gona need some of these certifications/tests.
08:51:20speachyeh, speculation is easy.
08:51:56gevaertsWe're speculating based on what other comparale projects have done though, so I'd say it's all valid :)
08:53:26speachyI still think the best approach for a "rockbox dap" is to place a large-ish order of an existing design (ErosQ?) and make it contingent on supplying schematics.
08:53:36gevaertsMy thinking is that at that scale, I can easily see $100 per device go to all those things
08:54:15speachyalong with silkscreening our logo on the case. :)
08:57:25speachyreally goes to show you how much up-front investmnet (eg) Sansa had to put up before they sold their first (eg) Clip.
09:08:07speachyugh, what is this modern fascination with using dual DACs for audio output?
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09:57:50berber_l51good ol question again which are the models of digital audio players you recommend that have an sd card slot and work with rockbox well? so far, i see sandisk sansa clip+ (which is prone to breaking), xduoo x3 (hard to get), agio eros k (hard to get), aigo eros q (ok to get), and classic ipods with sd card mod. it seems like there are none that
09:57:50berber_l51work with currently produced models, right?
10:09:41*cockroach is using a classic ipod with sd card mod
10:52:04berber_l51i wonder how well the shanling q1 works. it says "is generally stable for audio playback" on the rockbox page. don't know what that means, "generally stable", since for everything audio playback related it says that it works. maybe what is referred to as "generally stable" is the fact that it seems to have unresponsive ui with >= 176.4 KHz
10:52:04berber_l51playback and too much DSP
10:53:05berber_l51but that one is also not that easy to get anyway...
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11:31:30sporkit works great
11:32:33sporkworks fine for me with 192kHz flac
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12:09:00speachyberber_l51: there are many, many clones of the eros q/k models, including several sold today. surfans f20 and hifiwalker h2 come to mind.
12:09:31speachythe q is still sold too but not easily found in the US
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21:18:36__builtinHi friends! Duty calls, and so I'm back to write some rockbox code.
21:18:55__builtin... someone wants a new sgt-puzzle merged :)
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22:35:12dconradspeachy, I suspect there may be something wrong with the wiki auto-update scheme, I had some changes that sat without being propagated to the public page for some weeks
22:35:33dconradhopefully it's something simple
22:35:53dconrad(I just made some more changes, so we can see if those propagate tomorrow afternoon I suppose)
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23:37:36__builtin_bilgus_: Re: your message from April 1 about release checklists, are you referring to If not, 3.14 is a *looong* time ago for me to remember.
23:42:56__builtinspeachy, _bilgus_: re: the amaze port, looks like you already merged it - happy to see that!
23:47:55__builtinWhile we're on the topic of ancient stuff in the backlog, at one point (probably 2016-2017?) I made some decent progress on a Prince of Persia port: g#2634
23:47:58rb-bluebotGerrit review #2634 at : Port of SDL 2.0.12 and SDLPoP (WIP) by Franklin Wei
23:49:52__builtinAh, it's more recent than I initially remembered.
23:53:43__builtinBut yeah, I remember getting it to barely run in the simulator, and abruptly crash on target. If anyone's looking for a fun port (of both SDL and Prince of Persia), feel free to take that over.

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