00:00:22 | _bilgus | yeah thats getting a bit too far for what I figure we need |
00:01:15 | braewoods_ | yea, this contains all the basic CORE of Tcl... Most of the newer stuff is extensions. |
00:02:24 | braewoods_ | Like string comparisons become a very verbose affair. |
00:02:49 | braewoods_ | strcmp(a, b) becomes like [string compare $a $b] |
00:03:26 | _bilgus | I did like that they implemented integers as a datatype |
00:03:50 | braewoods_ | Because older Lua has no native integers? |
00:04:13 | braewoods_ | The latest Lua finally added integers though. |
00:04:33 | _bilgus | no because parsing strings to make ints is slow |
00:04:49 | braewoods_ | I see. |
00:05:07 | braewoods_ | So there's fewer conversions you're saying? |
00:06:09 | _bilgus | yeah constantly back and forth |
00:06:29 | _bilgus | what I hope is that you could get bytecode compile in ram |
00:07:50 | braewoods_ | Only so much you can do for script modules though. If people really want performance, they need to write it in C like the rest of us do. |
00:17:32 | _bilgus | thinking more like first run stuff gets compiled then it just uses bytecode files |
00:18:11 | _bilgus | I played with similar stuff with lua but the parser isn't the big bottleneck |
00:19:03 | _bilgus | now I did get a helloworld lua program down to 13k but the actual watermark in ram ends up being around 3x that |
00:20:17 | _bilgus | any scripting language is going to have weird memory usage but its truly staggering the alloc/free cycle that happens just to get the first line to run |
00:20:31 | _bilgus | (in lua) |
00:22:00 | _bilgus | not to mention a 130k bin |
00:23:21 | _bilgus | I think this partcl is probably more like 1k and 20k respectively looking at it |
00:24:27 | _bilgus | I was looking at micropython for the familiarity/power but it has a lot of baggage I'd have to remove still |
00:24:58 | _bilgus | and its still a new language |
00:26:22 | braewoods_ | The other thing I can think of is one of the many Lisp things floating around. They tend to be implemented in a similar manner internally: linked lists. |
00:26:40 | braewoods_ | But asking people to use that... |
00:26:45 | * | braewoods_ winces. |
00:26:54 | _bilgus | yeah but the lisp is so damn .. terse |
00:27:11 | _bilgus | like the opposite issue of tcl lol |
00:27:44 | braewoods_ | Indeed. NewLisp kinda falls into our use case but its main maintainer is missing. |
00:27:48 | _bilgus | I went down the lisp rote for a bit just because the ease of getting it up but it quickly felt like brainfuck |
00:27:55 | braewoods_ | http://www.newlisp.org/ |
00:28:22 | _bilgus | which I also made a plugin interpreter for |
00:28:33 | _bilgus | along with a optimizer |
00:34:36 | _bilgus | re newlisp they kinda gloss over the ram requirement still looking |
00:41:40 | braewoods_ | http://www.newlisp.org/MemoryManagement.html |
00:41:52 | braewoods_ | At least some information about implementation. |
00:42:26 | _bilgus | yeah I read that |
00:43:15 | _bilgus | what I want really is that sum of squares program does it take 10mb to parse and 12kb of ram stack cells or what |
00:44:07 | _bilgus | but their search on the forum is the same as ours (it sucks) |
00:56:08 | braewoods_ | No idea honestly. |
01:00 |
01:03:07 | _bilgus | It really doesn't have that many commands, I guess given primitives you can make your own |
01:04:54 | _bilgus | full unicode support is a nice feature |
01:08:26 | _bilgus | I think the pcre engine alone might be bigger than tcl |
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03:34:08 | kirvesAxe | I wonder why playlists saved by rb on my Eros Q get the "file od folder does not exist" error on Ubuntu... |
03:34:51 | kirvesAxe | ls shows them but still claims they do not exist |
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03:35:45 | kirvesAxe | Windows reads them just fine, and is saved over there, ubuntu has no issues... I wonder if this is an exFAT related issue or something. |
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04:49:51 | spork | some character set issue ? |
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08:47:59 | | Join speachy [0] (~speachy@rockbox/developer/speachy) |
08:47:59 | Mode | "#rockbox +v speachy" by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.libera.chat) |
08:49:17 | speachy | _bilgus: I've had the mispleasure of using tcl during my stints working with EDA tools (Cadence suite, Xilinx stuff, etc). tcl is incredibly popular in those niches but.. I honestly think lua is more widely used. |
08:49:45 | speachy | if you were trying to go for something with more general failarity, micropython is probably the way go go |
08:49:53 | speachy | and I say that as someone who positively loathes python |
08:50:26 | speachy | I've seen uPython deployed directly onto not-high-end microcontrollers so RAM usage has to be manageable. |
08:50:52 | speachy | (pretty sure we'd not be able to use the vast majority of the python code out there) |
08:51:51 | speachy | it's most likely purely interpreted though. |
08:55:32 | speachy | kirvesAxe: First thing that comes to mind is capitalization/case mismatch. |
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09:47:47 | speachy | huh. somoene on reddit claims to have done a build for the ipod6g that handles >2TB drives. |
09:48:28 | speachy | I di da quick sanity check of what they posted to github and the storage api still used 'unsigned long' for sector count so... I don't see how that could work. |
09:48:52 | speachy | (32-bit sectors * 512bytes = 2TB max |
09:50:18 | speachy | fixing this properly has been on my todo list, but ultimately it requires bumping the internal apis to use 64-bit sector/offsets. |
09:51:13 | speachy | disappointed this perosn didn't reach out to us at all though. |
09:52:17 | speachy | didn't post the "stupidly simple" patch, just a source tree. |
09:54:05 | speachy | uh.. his "proof" is two 512GB partitions on GPT? wtf? |
09:56:45 | speachy | ok, in the end his only change was to enable MULTIVOLUME on the ipod6g. |
09:57:12 | speachy | someone with a reddit account needs to smack that post with a cluebat. |
10:00 |
10:14:56 | _bilgus | an I assume multiple partitions? |
10:15:28 | speachy | yeah |
10:15:43 | _bilgus | I was looking at upython hard actually |
10:15:56 | speachy | basically they haven't actually _tested_ it with a >2TB drive |
10:16:17 | speachy | honestly I don't know if the iFlash SD adapters will even _work_ with that size |
10:16:33 | speachy | (the SATA adapters should have no issues though) |
10:17:08 | _bilgus | I'm not sure why you really need >2TB for anything less than 6 months |
10:17:14 | speachy | it's funny because in a later post on that thread they acknowledge the 2TB limit applies to the entire drive. |
10:17:30 | speachy | fundamental misunderstanding of how the multi-SD card adapters work |
10:18:31 | _bilgus | I'm going to this Alaskan observation post |
10:18:55 | _bilgus | for the next 2 years I need 4Tb of music |
10:19:49 | _bilgus | wtf apple wanted a leg for 10gb |
10:21:59 | _bilgus | I was wondering on TCL with anyone who used it a lot if they have strong feelings against it |
10:23:31 | speachy | going to 64-bit sector offsets within the storage subsystem is the first step; then the individual storage subsystem and their device drivers (ata, sd, etc) need to be made aware, then the filesystem code. |
10:23:33 | _bilgus | eh maybe this will get them interested in learning and get us another dev later on |
10:23:57 | speachy | and _then_ it's worth talking about exFAT. :D |
10:24:23 | speachy | IMO what's really driving these large storage sizes is high bitrate FLACs |
10:24:41 | speachy | that inevitably end up being played back via bluetooth anyway. :D |
10:25:39 | speachy | (oh, the poster of that build has their home IP banned in the forums, it turns out..) |
10:25:53 | speachy | (current home IP, I should say...) |
10:26:06 | _bilgus | I just haven't heard a real difference I have mp3 low rate flac and high rate flac and I try to guess which one it is when I hear a familar song and nearly always wrong |
10:26:17 | _bilgus | think its random chance when I got right |
10:26:53 | speachy | we now handle high bitrate but not higher-bitdepth stuff. and the analog paths on all of this gear isn't up to snuff anyway. |
10:29:31 | speachy | 1TB of 128kbps audio files will last just shy of 2 years of nonstop playback. |
10:32:49 | speachy | or... 2.5 months if it's CD quality FLAC. |
10:33:34 | _bilgus | which is still fine for a personal player IMO |
10:33:55 | _bilgus | bet it takes a while to load the music |
10:37:32 | | Join bakedbacon420 [0] (~bakedbaco@2600:381:cb60:232d:8c04:5c71:8a43:8711) |
10:39:00 | bakedbacon420 | Who would i need to get in contact with to have a weird forum ban issue looked at? Ive never had an account or interacted in any meaningful way, but when i go to the forums, it says im a permanently banned guest. I can see forum pages from vpn or even switching to a private window in opera/chrome |
10:41:18 | speachy | what's your current public IP address? |
10:41:23 | bakedbacon420 | one moment |
10:42:01 | bakedbacon420 | 99.186.211.168 |
10:42:26 | bakedbacon420 | Weirdly its showing me pinging from alabama but im in NC |
10:42:41 | buZz | geoIP isnt accurate |
10:42:47 | bakedbacon420 | oh kk |
10:42:50 | bakedbacon420 | woops |
10:42:52 | speachy | btw, your change does nothing with respect to the 2TB limit. the iflash multi-card SD adapters don't present as multiple individual drives; instead it appends them together as a sort of RAID0 single drive to the OS. |
10:43:49 | speachy | (I also have yet to hear anything about how well the iflash adapters even _work_ if there's more than 2TB of cards plugged into it) |
10:44:11 | bakedbacon420 | How does that relate to multi_volume and partitioning? not being trying to argue im still very much a novice it just seems to work on the surface lol |
10:44:54 | speachy | that 99.186 address is not in the ban list FWIW |
10:45:16 | speachy | but given that it works from a private session, try clearing *.rockbox.org cookies from your browser? |
10:45:27 | bakedbacon420 | Thank you ill give that a try now :) |
10:45:39 | speachy | (another possibility is some sort of plugin that's mucking with things) |
10:45:56 | speachy | (those are often/usually disasbled when using private browsing modes) |
10:46:03 | bakedbacon420 | That worked a treat thank you! |
10:47:36 | bakedbacon420 | But on the iflash adapters, their website just says they run in "JBOD" mode i wasnt under the impression it was any specific raid configuration with any limitations |
10:47:40 | _bilgus | ah good |
10:47:54 | bakedbacon420 | i have a drive connector to connect my iflash to my pc once more sd cards arrive and i can see whats going on with it |
10:48:05 | bakedbacon420 | Im committed at this point so im digging my heels in hard |
10:50:15 | speachy | internal to rockbox all of the sector offsets are represented by 32-bit numbers |
10:50:28 | bakedbacon420 | ahhhhhhhh |
10:50:29 | bakedbacon420 | i see |
10:50:37 | speachy | so 4 billionish * 512 byte sectors == 2TB max |
10:51:06 | bakedbacon420 | Theoretically if i could get it to read larger sectors? |
10:51:21 | speachy | to break past that the internals (and APIs) would all have to be converted to 64-bit offsets, and every device driver has to accept that and do the right thing. |
10:52:02 | speachy | with larger sectors, yes. We handle 2K sectors properly due to how some of the 5th gen ipods were set up |
10:52:29 | speachy | but that still required the _hardware_ to work natively with 2K sectors. |
10:52:46 | bakedbacon420 | Hmm |
10:52:49 | bakedbacon420 | thats a lot to chew on |
10:52:55 | speachy | and those iflash adapters only do 0.5K. |
10:53:03 | speachy | (along with most devices) |
10:53:26 | bakedbacon420 | Okay so now it really is a hardware and partitioning problem |
10:53:29 | bakedbacon420 | thats more my speed |
10:54:14 | speachy | a hack would be to partition/etc the device with 2K sectors and have the ata driver interally map that back to 512B sectors but that's inordinately messy. |
10:54:27 | speachy | much better to just make it 64-bit clean everywhere |
10:54:50 | speachy | been on the to-do list for a while, but there's just not been a pressing need for that capability in an audio player |
10:55:10 | speachy | addd GPT support a while back as the first step towards that goal |
10:56:34 | bakedbacon420 | Since you recognized my username im not sure if youve seen the kind of stuff ive posted to reddit (and deleted admittedly for personal life reasons) but im very much into cursed messy hacks lol |
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11:02:25 | _bilgus | I was just lloking at the file copy code it just knows 512 for sector size we do have a macro for SECTOR_SIZE but I bet there are more hardcoded places to bite you |
11:03:17 | _bilgus | bakedbacon420, we all started on this codebase with a goal and a hack I think |
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11:08:31 | bakedbacon420 | I appreciate the words of wisdom a great deal :) |
11:08:46 | bakedbacon420 | ive found myself weirdly passionate about this project over the years im eternally grateful for what you guys do |
11:08:54 | bakedbacon420 | and i just wanted to have a piece of that for myself lol |
11:17:07 | speachy | it's a labor of love for all ofus |
11:17:16 | speachy | love and/or insanity |
11:18:17 | speachy | one complication in in making the storage APIs 64-bit clean is the desire to not slow/bloat things at runtime for devices that'll never handle storage that large. |
11:19:19 | speachy | so step 0 would be defining a new type (sector_t or whatever) that's initally an 'unsigned long' and converting everyhting to use that. |
11:19:50 | speachy | then we can try making that into a uint64_t and start fixing everything that breaks. :D |
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11:27:44 | _bilgus | and 2038 need similar work I suspect |
11:32:44 | speachy | FAT doesn't have that problem ironically |
11:33:22 | speachy | we have such little stuff internally that cares asbout dates that I think it won't be that bad to resolve. |
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11:35:23 | _bilgus_ | I haven't been able to get on IRC from the kiwi web frontend the last few times |
11:35:30 | speachy | hmm.. |
11:36:13 | _bilgus_ | I had issues directly at libras web one too but it eventually went, maybe just server load |
11:38:13 | speachy | nothing we can do about it one way or another |
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11:44:20 | _bilgus_ | maybe someone is doing blockchain crap on IRC ervers again |
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12:44:52 | kirvesAxe | spork, unless rockbox just pretends to use ascii range utf-8 characters but uses something else, charset issues are out of the question :) |
12:46:38 | kirvesAxe | speachy, when the error comes from ls listing files, telling their names but also telling that they don't exist, I wonder where the case micmatch could have happened... did rockbox save the fimename with wrong case somehow? :) |
12:47:09 | speachy | do a fsck/chkdsk run? |
12:57:57 | kirvesAxe | Maybe I'll try that... but I still assume the problem is somewhere with how the hosted rockbox port uses the exFAT sd card, or maybe with the linux support for exFAT having issues |
12:59:05 | kirvesAxe | (I mean the playlist files Rockbox saved work on the device itself without any issues, and if the sd card is read by a Windows machine, it finds the files... but Ubuntu complains) |
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13:00:13 | kirvesAxe | (sometimes I remember opening playlist files on a windowsbased text editor, saving over original, and then they work on the device and ubuntu... but feels a bit painful to always need a faildows for this stuff :P) |
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14:25:15 | speachy | ah, ok. the exfat code in those hosted ports is probably on the order of a decade out of date, and likely riddled with long-since-fixed bugs. |
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14:57:18 | bakedbacon420 | Right now my iflash is reporting 4096 bytes per sector and 16 sectors per cluster(as are the partitions on the drive), and rockbox is booting fine and reading/writing no issue |
14:57:21 | bakedbacon420 | what am i missing here lol |
14:57:33 | bakedbacon420 | Wouldnt that put me at a higher limit than 2tb? |
14:57:41 | bakedbacon420 | Or am i doing the math all wrong |
15:00 |
15:00:25 | bakedbacon420 | no yeah i think im doing the math wrong having relooked at the formula lol |
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16:40:45 | speachy | this has proven to be less difficult that I'd anticiapted |
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16:41:56 | speachy | all I have left to do is convert the FAT code over and all ATA targets will handle >2TB drives. |
16:42:25 | speachy | SDUC is more involved, as that will require core changes _and_ every SD driver to be touched. |
17:00 |
17:06:24 | bakedbacon420 | holy shit really? i was literally about to full send it with a really silly partition hack and 4 sd cards |
17:06:49 | bakedbacon420 | grabbed the sd cards from my 3ds and steam deck and backed them up lol |
17:09:58 | speachy | the FAT code is _really_ tricky |
17:12:24 | bakedbacon420 | If you need someone to test your code once its done lmk i have 3tb of sd cards ready to slap in my ipod |
17:12:45 | bakedbacon420 | let me know* sorry still getting used to IRC etiquette |
17:12:47 | speachy | well, one thing you can do is slap them all in there and see what shows up in disk mode |
17:13:05 | speachy | (ie how large of a virtual drive shows up) |
17:13:15 | bakedbacon420 | most i can do right now is 2.5tb raw sd card storage will that work? |
17:13:20 | bakedbacon420 | 3ds sd card is still backing up |
17:13:29 | speachy | anything over 2TB bsically |
17:13:39 | bakedbacon420 | bet gimmie 10 minutes or so |
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17:18:16 | _bilgus_ | g#5807 is a WIP of a user request on the forums |
17:18:18 | rb-bluebot | Gerrit review #5807 at https://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/c/rockbox/+/5807 : [Feature] playlist_viewer id3 title display by William Wilgus |
17:19:07 | _bilgus_ | ATM its just pulling id3 data from the file name which I guess isn't terrible in chunks but eh I think I'd like that to be the fallback |
17:19:44 | _bilgus_ | pretty sure I can query the db in that whole exchange (assuming not too much more code) |
17:20:34 | _bilgus_ | I should say opening each file on every scroll essentially |
17:27:00 | speachy | I want to extend the cmdline dbtool to extract all of the strings the tagcache cares about, and export that to a file which can then be used to generate talk clips |
17:27:54 | speachy | the goal being fully voiced database browsing. |
17:29:38 | speachy | ok, I think I have the FAT code converted. or at least it now compiles without warnings on an ipod 5g. :D |
17:29:58 | _bilgus_ | ah so they cn generate clips off their db? |
17:30:03 | speachy | yeah. |
17:30:29 | speachy | an alternative is to have that exported from within rockbox |
17:30:58 | _bilgus_ | wouldn't be too bad to spit it out in a playlist with some annotations |
17:31:00 | speachy | potentially a lot of clips and strings. |
17:31:26 | speachy | also roll the strings in tagnavi.cfg into that list |
17:31:42 | _bilgus_ | probably be best to package them up in a voice blob tbh |
17:32:02 | _bilgus_ | make it like its a plugin |
17:32:03 | speachy | gotta get the data out of the database first. |
17:32:42 | speachy | (still leaning on extending dbtool) |
17:32:49 | _bilgus_ | the tcd files are pretty easy to parse but nicer to have rb export it |
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17:43:54 | bakedbacon420 | im still here im just having issues getting it to restore so i can have disk mode back lol |
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19:07:01 | speachy | Ugh, the SD stuff is a mess. every target driver efectively reimplements the world. |
19:16:41 | speachy | ok, g#5088 for folks feeling particularly brave. All I can promise is that it compiles clealy. probably. |
19:16:45 | rb-bluebot | Gerrit review #5088 at https://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/c/rockbox/+/5088 : playlist: Remove current flag by Aidan MacDonald |
19:18:33 | speachy | uh.. g#5808 |
19:18:36 | rb-bluebot | Gerrit review #5808 at https://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/c/rockbox/+/5808 : storage: 64-bit sector offsets, phase 1 by Solomon Peachy |
19:29:44 | bakedbacon420 | I only just got github running literally the other day to get my repo up |
19:29:58 | bakedbacon420 | how do i go about adding this new patch to my current build/redownload for recompile? |
19:33:55 | bakedbacon420 | wait i found the page nevermind |
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20:21:32 | speachy | to meaningfully test this out, you'll need to pretty much fill the whole thing up with data that can be validated |
20:22:24 | speachy | rockbox's usb mass storage mode should do the right thing |
20:25:53 | speachy | I wonder if Apple's disk mode will handle >2TB drives.. |
20:51:01 | bakedbacon420 | most that shows up in virtual disk right now is 304ish gigs |
20:51:42 | bakedbacon420 | cant seem to get it to show me any additional unallocated space and disk checks pass on it fine so i have no clue where the other 2tb is going lol |
20:52:04 | bakedbacon420 | gonna see if i can get it into rockbox and see what the debug menu says |
20:57:48 | speachy | don' tthink the debug menu shows the total drive size, just the partition info |
20:58:52 | bakedbacon420 | ah fair enough |
20:58:58 | bakedbacon420 | i get a panic when usb disconnected anyways lol |
21:00 |
21:00:33 | speachy | disk size in the debug menu is incomplete, d'oh |
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21:42:17 | speachy | anyone have the ata identify info from an ipod 5g 80GB? (ie the one with the 2K sector size?) |
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21:56:14 | bakedbacon420 | any quick and dirty way to get that info? |
21:56:20 | bakedbacon420 | ive got a 5g 80gb chilling in my drawer |
21:56:53 | speachy | debug menu -> dump identify info, then grab identify_info.bin off the disk |
22:00 |
22:00:29 | bakedbacon420 | ill have it shortly |
22:03:57 | bakedbacon420 | aight ive got the .bin is there anywhere handy for uploading random files? lol |
22:06:50 | massiveH | https://filebin.net/ |
22:08:38 | bakedbacon420 | https://filebin.net/3ilramf0njxjd04g |
22:14:14 | bakedbacon420 | The iflash is overflowing as soon as it hits 2tb it seems |
22:14:49 | bakedbacon420 | 2x1tb cards is fine no issue. Comes out to ~1.86tb. Add a 512gb card and the total drive space becomes 304gb even |
22:20:26 | | Quit bakedbacon420 (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) |
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22:21:38 | bakedbacon420 | ended up bluescreening from trying to access the disk so some really funky stuff is going on behind the scenes lol |
22:22:15 | bakedbacon420 | im gonna have to get another zif drive reader see if it acts this way when access directly as opposed to through the ipod itself |
22:22:29 | massiveH | bakedbacon420, can I interest you in a copy of WinZIP 1.0 https://photos.app.goo.gl/d2LPJDGZs9VeKsFM7 |
22:23:34 | bakedbacon420 | Hope it deserved it |
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23:35:22 | *** | Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" |
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