--- Log for 03.03.103 Server: sterling.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot Version: Dancer V4.16p1 Started: 6 days and 13 hours ago 00.01.32 # i don't think I tested append/close/append/close/append/close a lot 00.02.08 # hang on, i have to reboot 00.02.11 Part LinusN 00.02.41 Quit edx () 00.08.51 Join LinusN [0] (~linus@labb.contactor.se) 00.08.54 # yo 00.11.57 # LinusN: can you repeat it easily? 00.12.03 # no, not yet 00.12.09 # give me a few 00.17.38 # Zagor: looks like the even-write-offset did the trick. Thx! 00.17.45 # jzoss: good 00.18.19 # Is that documented anywhere? 00.18.45 # nope :) 00.18.48 # Mind if I throw a comment near write() in file.c to give a heads-up to anyone snoopin around? 00.19.19 # sure 00.19.31 # docs/API could use a line or two too 00.20.09 # we could also simply add odd address capability to ata_write_sector :-) 00.20.22 # I was just thinking that. =-) 00.20.47 # But a comment's easier for me, so I'll throw that in with the rest of the ID3-patch, and you can accept/reject as you deem fit 00.20.54 # yup 00.21.27 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 00.24.40 Join dvr-505 [0] (Kaminsky@195-23-195-61.nr.ip.pt) 00.24.55 # help please 00.25.17 # with what? 00.25.20 # *panic* recfile -2 00.25.23 # ok then, since you ask so nicely 00.25.33 # what is this 00.25.33 # ? 00.25.38 # dvr-505: we are working on it 00.25.45 # it is a serious bug 00.25.48 # ok 00.25.56 # can you explain it to me 00.25.58 # pleaseeee 00.26.21 # it is a problem with the file system driver 00.26.35 # i reported bugs as pedro.sam@clix.pt in the website 00.26.38 # so it corrupts the recorded file and the recording code panics 00.26.47 # ok 00.27.01 # i am chasing the bug as we speak 00.27.05 # but it only corrupts at 63.1MB 00.27.15 # right? 00.27.25 # or does it corrupt by time???? 00.27.26 # it depends 00.27.30 # not sure yet 00.27.47 # it happened to me always at 63.1mb 00.28.25 # recording at quality 7 43.5db 44.1khz 00.28.29 # not for me 00.28.48 # have you tried it with different recording settings? 00.28.56 # i am recording as we speek 00.28.58 # That might show if it was time or size-related... 00.29.02 # but at the same quality 00.29.34 # i have already recorded 65.3 mb at the same settings but i stopped the recording with no error report 00.29.44 # yeah 00.30.03 # i will keep trying 00.30.13 # do you want me to keep reporting? 00.30.55 # ?? 00.31.00 # not necessary if you get the same shit over again 00.31.10 # ? 00.31.25 # dvr-505: only if you notice a difference 00.31.41 # i can try to record at lower quality and see if it is the file size or time...... 00.35.09 # no need (yet) 00.35.27 # but thanks for offering your help 00.35.32 # ok 00.41.41 Join JorisH [0] (jirc@ipd50a5e0a.speed.planet.nl) 00.41.50 # Zagor: i can repeat it 00.41.58 # ah, goodie. how? 00.42.19 # Hey, whats up? 00.42.21 # 1h 63.9mb 00.42.24 # a loop that open-write-close chunks of 0x123456 bytes 00.42.30 # keeps recording 00.42.45 # want the code? 00.42.59 # nah, i'll test myself 00.43.20 # JorisH: hunting a nasty file system bug 00.43.44 # as usual :D 00.43.56 # LinusN: after how many writes does it bug? 00.44.11 # guess what file size? :-) 00.44.20 # 63mb something 00.44.23 # ok 00.45.15 # bugger. works in the simcode. 00.46.08 # mine stopped at 1:03:00 file +65mb 00.46.12 # it is easier to repeat it on an empty drive 00.46.28 # my simdrive is always empty :-) 00.46.38 # must power off to continue using 00.46.56 # dvr-505: yes, panic is a dead end 00.47.55 # dvr-505: how big is your hard drive? 00.48.30 # 20 00.48.44 # unit: jbr20101 00.48.45 # Zagor: cluster size may matter 00.48.52 # does rockbox internally keep track of file lenght while recording? 00.48.56 # good point. which size are you using? 00.49.09 # i dunno 00.49.21 # do a checkdisk 00.49.29 # checking 00.49.37 # the 56th write fails when closing 00.50.50 # Contains a free cluster (13824). Assuming EOF. 00.50.50 # File size is 65617530 bytes, cluster chain length is 57524224 bytes. 00.50.50 # Truncating file to 57524224 bytes. 00.50.50 DBUG Enqueued KICK LinusN 00.50.50 # Reclaimed 629 unused clusters (10305536 bytes). 00.50.52 # Free cluster summary wrong (1215138 vs. really 1216804) 00.51.25 # 10305536/629/512 == 32 sec/clus 00.52.13 # Boot sector contents: 00.52.14 # System ID "MSDOS5.0" 00.52.14 # Media byte 0xf8 (hard disk) 00.52.14 # 512 bytes per logical sector 00.52.14 *** Alert Mode level 1 00.52.14 # 16384 bytes per cluster 00.52.14 *** Alert Mode level 2 00.52.14 # 36 reserved sectors 00.52.15 # I still can't repeat it in the sim, though 00.52.18 # First FAT starts at byte 18432 (sector 36) 00.52.20 # 2 FATs, 32 bit entries 00.52.22 # 4881408 bytes per FAT (= 9534 sectors) 00.52.24 # Root directory start at cluster 2 (arbitrary size) 00.52.26 # Data area starts at byte 9781248 (sector 19104) 00.52.28 # 1220341 data clusters (2814197760 bytes) 00.52.30 # 63 sectors/track, 255 heads 00.52.32 # 63 hidden sectors 00.52.35 # 39070017 sectors total 00.52.53 # the file that was recording was +65mb and now has only 61.8mb 00.58.25 Quit matsl (Remote closed the connection) 00.58.51 # LinusN: can you debug it and see if file->fileoffset is bad or if fat_seek() bugs? 00.59.09 # no serial port 00.59.16 # this is the fm? 00.59.27 # yes, i don't get it on my rec20 00.59.35 # :-( 00.59.52 # but i can do some good ol' lcd debugging 01.02.15 *** Alert Mode OFF 01.04.25 Quit JorisH ("Leaving") 01.06.44 # file offset looks ok 01.11.57 Quit s0be ("Client exiting") 01.12.36 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 01.16.10 Ctcp Ignored 2 channel CTCP requests in 22 hours and 33 minutes at the last flood 01.16.10 # * LinusN is running an extensive test 01.17.50 # Zagor: nothing extraordinary to report 01.18.22 # ok. i'll be off to bed. 01.18.29 # chicken 01.18.34 # :-) 01.18.54 # see you later 01.18.56 Quit Zagor ("Client Exiting") 01.20.56 # LinusN: you still around? 01.21.02 # i'm here 01.21.16 # you been upto date on the ui emails? 01.21.25 # not really 01.21.42 # but i think i agree with joaquim on many points 01.22.04 # so do i .. i just think his problem is on how he is presenting it 01.22.18 # that is at least part of the problem 01.22.34 # nods 01.22.38 # he is too focused on the concept of an ordinary music player 01.22.43 # i like his cursor invert idea 01.22.46 # for the full line part 01.22.50 # the recorder is not an ordinary player 01.22.53 # nods 01.23.12 # and his tetris thing... i think i like it sideways like it is now more 01.23.37 # thing that i think gets under my skin the most is 'tell me what parts you want, and then Ill make that patch' 01.23.55 # feels too much like 'you have to take more then one patch at a time or else' 01.24.15 # you have to see his point too 01.24.36 # he hacked it so it fitted his needs 01.24.54 # "fitted" ?? 01.24.58 # fit? 01.25.10 # fit i think 01.25.11 # fit - fit - fit 01.25.13 # right.. i agree.. 01.25.27 # but he's been asked (multiple times) to break it out into more then one patch 01.25.44 # he has no obligations to us 01.26.01 # i agree... 01.26.09 # just as we have none to him ;) 01.26.20 # :-) 01.27.14 # the thing is that all UI discussions tend to flip out sooner or later 01.27.22 # flip out? 01.27.28 # sorry, swenglish 01.27.45 # give me a definition once and you can use it all you want :) 01.27.50 # :-) 01.28.02 # * LinusN is thinking 01.28.09 # flip out: become an ego contest? 01.28.10 # or 01.28.18 # flip out: get resolved 01.28.34 # rather "out of hand" 01.28.56 # people have different needs 01.29.06 # nods 01.29.08 # joaquim wants to play music in his pocket 01.29.11 # i agree 01.29.19 # i want to do a lot more than that 01.29.37 # so we need to find a way to accomodate as many needs as possible 01.29.37 # while i use my player only when driving.. so don't care about the interface all that much 01.29.51 # but you must have similar needs 01.30.00 # nah 01.30.06 # like not being forced to look at the lcd 01.30.08 # all i need is a large font and usable wps 01.30.56 # what i do like though.. is someone gave a demo of horizontal sliders 01.30.58 # that i liked... 01.31.31 # the idea of having many of the settings in one window was one i mentioned long ago.. but got a 'we'll deal with that later' for :) 01.31.34 # which was cool 01.33.12 # while y'all are in a UI discussion.... 01.33.40 # Part of my ID3 patch is the ability to set ID3 tags for recordings (rather than edit the file after the fact) 01.34.20 # What do you think: 1) Hardcoded recording ID3 tags that reset to defaults every reboot 01.34.32 # 2) Blank ID3 defaults 01.34.47 # is there a 3? 01.34.50 # 3) Save/Load the last values along with the rest of config settings 01.34.54 # there we go :) 01.34.57 # i vote for 2 01.34.59 # definitely 3 01.35.10 # :-) 01.35.13 # If you think there's a need for 3, it's probably more flexible. 01.35.31 # i only vote for 2, because i tend not to use id3 tags at all 01.35.32 # I don't think I'll go as far as doing a Cfg option for "choose 2 vs 3 behavior", though 01.35.39 # but 3 works just as well :) 01.35.45 # nah.. no need for that 01.36.00 # yah, me too. But I do have the need to edit ID3 tags on the JB when I find one that's wrong, though 01.36.10 # uh all 3??? 01.36.23 # give people option 01.36.35 # ? 01.37.34 # Too many options make me sad. Especially for relatively trivial stuff like this. =) 01.37.53 # ok 01.38.21 # But that doesn't mean *you* can't hack the code to add in your own preferences. =) Go Rockbox! 01.39.39 # During the recording the screen could show Press Off to STOP 01.39.39 # And 01.39.39 # also the peak meter could be shown in stereo when the internal mic is in use 01.39.39 DBUG Enqueued KICK dvr-505 01.39.39 # sorry 01.39.39 # not for here 01.44.26 # anything new about the recording error?????? 01.44.55 Join ken0_ [0] (marklar2@80.178.36.38) 01.45.07 # dvr-505: still hunting 01.45.22 # ok 01.49.46 # tks 02.00.10 Quit s0be ("Client exiting") 02.00.28 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 02.05.04 Quit dvr-505 ("Keep Hunting That damm Bug") 02.10.16 Quit s0be ("Client exiting") 02.10.32 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 02.11.58 Quit s0be (Client Quit) 02.12.12 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 02.21.29 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 04.01.22 Quit s0be (Remote closed the connection) 04.02.09 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 04.05.53 Quit Jet8810 ("Client Exiting") 04.09.04 Quit s0be ("Client exiting") 04.21.31 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 04.47.02 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 05.15.56 Part LinusN 05.27.35 Join Nibbler [0] (Ich@cl0144.pc.nus.edu.sg) 05.27.39 # ello 05.27.46 # hiya 05.28.09 # wow, didnt expect anyone to be around :) 05.29.35 # It's only 10:30 here 05.29.39 # (PM) 05.30.42 # heh, 12:30 here :) 05.31.01 # but for most ppl in here its like 3-5am 05.31.46 # yah. I caught zagor on today and peppered him with a kazillion questions... pesky timezones. ;) 05.34.11 # heh, where r u from? 05.34.33 # and: is there any mayor features in rockbox since.... playlist building? 05.34.43 # San Antonio, TX, USA 05.35.06 # PlaylistBuilding => that "create a playlist" option that scans all subdirs? 05.35.15 # yus 05.35.19 # ah, singapore here.... 05.35.49 # Lemme see.... I came onboard after that was in place, so I can only tell you the more recent things 05.36.21 # There's a queueing function to let you dynamically queue things up in the middle of an existing playlist 05.37.04 # And a "bookmarking" patch (not integrated into CVS yet) that allows you to save file-specific resume info (helpful for audio books) 05.37.40 # A whole host of minor bugfixes... 05.37.42 # thats what i have in my version :) 05.37.52 # My brain's a little slow, so that's all I can come up with now. =) 05.38.07 # bookmark and queue, but queue with only the 1 enque option, so no, insert, append, prepend.... 05.38.20 # right 05.38.39 # ok, then im enough up-to-date 05.38.40 # :) 05.38.42 # I'm working on an ID3 patch and another for custom filenaming for recording files 05.38.54 # caus most patches were not to applie to latest sources... 05.39.01 # oh nice 05.39.12 # And there's quite a few people bouncing around new UI designs or ideas for playlist editing 05.39.17 # So checkback in a bit. =) 05.39.22 # i looked into the code a few times but i dont feel like being able to actually do smth :() 05.39.45 # the UI kinda suxx yes, i dont really like it as it is now 05.40.05 # 2.0 should be released soon (there's kinda a feature freeze) 05.40.16 # I think UI is high on the list of post-2.0 things to tackle 05.40.47 Nick _seb_ is now known as seb-sleep (Sean@bgp420584bgs.union01.nj.comcast.net) 05.41.35 # oi 05.41.53 # well, i was more up-to-date for normal, but im on vacation atm so i conly check for news once in a while :) 05.44.22 # vacation? I'm jealous. ;) 05.44.34 # hehe 05.44.56 # im in singapore right now (as my hostmasks might have told ya) go9ing back to germany next week :( 05.45.21 # what're you seeing in singapore? 05.45.52 # heh, my gf :D 05.46.09 # doing mainly shopping in .sg and going to malaysia for the weekends for holiday 05.46.12 # ahhh...Singapore is not usually tops on people's touristylists 05.47.47 # yus :) 05.47.58 # its good for electronics, digicams, computers stuff 05.48.06 # and i got some suits tailored... but thats about it : 05.48.07 # ) 05.52.35 Ctcp Ignored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood 05.52.35 # * adi|home yawns 05.52.37 # howdy all 05.52.46 # what're you doing up, adi? 05.53.24 # only like midnight here 05.53.29 # im tossing in laundry 05.53.33 # and working on a patch 05.53.35 # ahh... me too! =) 05.53.43 # laundry + patch. ;) 05.54.08 # lol 05.54.11 # what you working on? 05.54.33 # that silly id3 stuff. I got 90% of it done real quick, but the last few details & debugging take forever 05.55.34 # nods 05.56.33 # im working adding the curor bit that since Carvalho seems adament about not breaking his bit up into diff patches 05.56.39 # * adi|home grumbles at that dudes attitude 05.56.59 # ahhh... yup. 05.57.11 # "you tell me what you want, and ill make the patch" 05.57.17 # Maybe it's a culture/language barrier ? 05.57.19 # * jzoss shrugs 05.57.22 # we have yout tool.. we want you to _BREAK_ them out 05.57.30 # nah.. its personality 06.00.02 # is it at least readable code? 06.01.05 Join mecraw [0] (~mecraw@65.103.123.16) 06.04.02 # im not too worried about his code to be honest 06.04.12 # at this point, im fairly against him in general 06.04.28 # if he isn't going to take the time to break it out, im not going to take the time to read it 06.05.58 # such is the joy of global opensource projects. For the most part, the rockbox crowd seems to get along pretty well. 06.06.07 # Could help that there's a lot of family involved. ;) 06.09.10 Quit s0be (Remote closed the connection) 06.15.36 Join MeRWiN [0] (~merwin@12-208-140-24.client.attbi.com) 06.21.16 # yeah.. that and most of the group is open for comments... 06.21.28 # i've had my fair share of stuff shot down.. 06.21.35 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 06.21.36 # and ive been willing/able to work around it.. 06.21.41 # heh. yah. 06.21.48 # i mean.. even before when he was argueing the use of the c++ style comments 06.21.59 # it took bjorn saying 'deal with it' to get him to change 06.22.14 # rightright... that seemed a little going-against-the-flow 06.23.22 # i think you are being a little harsh tbh 06.24.00 # hes done this mainly to scratch his own itch 06.24.18 # and beign a nice open source kind of chappy, hes made his changes go upstream 06.24.58 # he probably doesnt _want_ to be part of 'rockbox community' 06.25.06 # oh.. im not knocking his want at his itch.. 06.25.30 # and thats fine.. but to come across saying 'im not making the changes.. i don't have time.. im just going to keep doing what i want.. ' 06.25.31 # but hes happy to rewrite any part of what hes done if someone here decides they'd like that included 06.25.35 # i have no prob with... 06.25.48 # MT but thats my point 06.26.09 # we can't _tell_ what we want.. because im not about to apply his ENTIRE patch to see what i do/don't like 06.26.24 # there maybe things that are broken in parts of th patch that I don't like 06.26.26 # ui arguments tend to get heated very quickly :) 06.26.37 # and they are only there because of parts of another part of the patch 06.26.45 # erm, thats perhaps why he has supplied prebuilt binaries of his code 06.26.50 # but im not on about his ui suggestons... 06.27.09 # but it doesn't help us decide what to and not to take... 06.27.18 Join s0be [0] (~s0be@163.118.102.40) 06.27.27 # i must be missing something here .. 06.27.30 # and he's shown himself want of following contributing guidlines.. 06.27.32 # and he still is 06.27.49 # im all for some of the changes he's made 06.28.00 # and if they were seperate patches.. they would be in already.. 06.28.01 # hmm, i think hes on the defensive tbh 06.28.05 Part s0be ("Client exiting") 06.28.14 # thats his own fault... 06.28.23 # his first few emails were attacked quite viciously 06.28.31 # i don't think that so true 06.28.37 # he was asked to follow the contrib doc 06.28.50 # and he said 'im not doing anything wrong' 06.29.03 # so? 06.29.12 # it was explained what the changes we would have liked to see in the style.. and then he got defensice 06.29.17 # defensive rather :) 06.29.38 # well, sure if he wanted to become part of the rockbox project .. 06.29.45 # no 06.29.53 # if he wanted his patches accepted 06.29.54 # but if he just wanted to share some code he had done for himself 06.30.23 # ah, he probably doesnt see the overall aim as "getting patches accepted" 06.30.57 # right.. and i think thats part of the problem.. 06.31.04 # if he doesn't 'want patches accepted' then fine 06.31.08 # say that and move forward 06.31.12 # why is that a problem? 06.31.23 # but the attitude of 'you tell me what you want.. and _then_ ill fix my code' is crap. 06.31.43 # him not wanting it in as a patch isn't a problem at all. 06.31.46 # its his code. 06.31.46 # he _has_ to submit changes to the source code of rockbox 06.31.53 # thats up to him. 06.31.56 # as he is distributing binaries of it 06.32.32 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 06.32.36 # yes 06.32.38 # it is GPL 06.32.44 # he has to under the license 06.32.49 # i understand... 06.32.56 # im not argueing that point... 06.33.02 # whether you accept them, ignore them, ask him to rewrite them is not relevant 06.33.12 # but he isn't saying 'i don't want this accepted..' 06.33.36 # but the first thing ppl said to him after showing them his work is "well that all needs rewriting, change it so its like this, blahblah" 06.33.41 # if when he was asked to rewrite.. he said 'no' id be defending him to the last 06.33.42 # fine for a rockbox developer 06.33.51 # well he did say no 06.33.57 # no. he didn't. 06.34.05 # he said "why should i change my comments" 06.34.09 # thats 'no' 06.34.11 # ;) 06.35.29 # no.. its a question 06.35.35 # 'i won't change my comments' is a no :) 06.36.11 # g'night, all... don't stay up *too* late. heh. =) 06.36.36 Quit jzoss ("BitchX: not from concentrate") 06.36.52 # and his entire time he's been saying 'i don't have time ' and i appreaciate that.. but a lot more time could be used productively (for all involved) not reiterating that, and following the docs :) 06.38.08 # and im looking over the archives right now.. 06.38.17 # and the initial emails were nowhere near attacking 06.38.38 # many of the emails were actually very complimentary of the _binaries_ he was sending out.. (no code given at the time) 06.43.14 # (05:37) g'night, all... don't stay up *too* late. heh. =) 06.43.15 # doh 06.43.21 # too late already? :) 06.43.36 # lol 06.43.40 # 15 to 1 am here 06.43.45 # heh 06.43.49 # i wish it was here too :) 06.44.09 # i may stand a chance of finishing this website before the guy that has paid me comes back from holiday :) 06.44.56 # hhhehehe 07.07.16 Quit MT ("changing servers") 07.14.07 Join MT [0] (~MT@phhhwwwooooaaarrrr.annwiddecombe.com) 07.43.51 Join Nibbler [0] (Ich@spnp238007.spnp.nus.edu.sg) 08.07.57 Nick dw|gone is now known as dwihno (dwihno@h193180246067.kommunicera.umea.se) 08.17.50 Join Bagder [0] (~dast@neptunus.contactor.se) 08.18.01 # morning 08.18.43 # Indeed, it's a really good morning! :) 08.18.50 # Nah, who am I trying to fool... ;) 08.21.17 Join ken0 [0] (marklar2@80.178.36.38) 08.21.18 Quit ken0_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) 08.21.37 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 08.29.31 Quit Nibbler (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08.29.57 Join Nibbler [0] (Ich@hssml0132.pc.nus.edu.sg) 08.30.27 # re 08.30.43 # hi 08.35.09 # * dwihno awaits the return of Zagor 08.54.15 # Bagder.. need an opinion? 08.54.19 # http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~rhak/misc/test.html 08.54.35 # since the irc logs now spam a full year.. we need to tell the month differences... 08.54.40 # is that legable? 08.58.00 # looks neat 08.58.26 Join Zagor_ [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se) 08.58.35 # think there is any prob if i update the irc perl script to have it do tat? 08.58.42 # hey.. zagor.. good timing... 08.58.45 # http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~rhak/misc/test.html 08.58.56 # opinions to fix the irc log years thing 08.59.10 # looks good 08.59.17 # k 08.59.27 Nick Zagor_ is now known as Zagor (~bjst@labb.contactor.se) 09.02.10 # Howdy ho, Zagor! 09.02.14 # Do I got news for you! 09.02.21 # yeah? 09.02.29 # I got a red light hang today 09.02.49 # yeah, I know the fix doesn't work. someone mentioned in the bug report. 09.03.40 # Do you want me to run some kind of debug enabled build, to find out exactly where it hangs? 09.04.07 # only if you can repeat it easily 09.05.26 # :-/ 09.05.42 # It's a surprise feature 09.05.50 # yeah... :-( 09.06.01 # I could go back to the file display 09.06.11 # but when I tried to start a new file, it froze 09.06.22 # yup 09.06.27 # very annoying 09.07.15 # The bug is because of disk read failing? 09.07.25 # i think so 09.07.46 # I mean, I never had the problem with the unit at home :) 09.08.33 # I've never had the problem PERIOD. and yet I ride with it to work every day. 09.09.53 # I never had the problem with my IBM disk 09.10.37 # zagor.. we have lines commented out in irclogs.pl... any prob if i remove them? 09.11.34 Join edx [0] (edx@pD9EABE21.dip.t-dialin.net) 09.12.31 # no problem 09.12.40 # k 09.13.48 # k.. i think i have it.. wanna take a copy of the script and see if it the output looks right before i commit/ 09.13.50 # ? 09.15.12 # * adi|home is away: laundry 09.16.30 Join matsl [0] (~matsl@dhcp101.contactor.se) 09.20.23 # * adi|home is back (gone 00:05:08) 09.20.43 # Zagor did you take that file? 09.21.51 #