--- Log for 12.09.104  Server: leguin.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 16 days and 13 hours ago

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00.16.29 #       <Zagor> cvs.uclinux.org does not contain the latest code :(
00.17.34 #       <bagawk> Zagor, what are you working with uclinux for?
00.17.40 #       <bagawk> the archos? :)
00.18.10 #       <Zagor> i just want to look at the code. if they have support for some of the devices (such as audio), it will contain useful information.
00.19.16 #       <Zagor> so now I'm checking out their entire cvs repository :)
00.23.24 #       <Zagor> whee! uClinux-2.0.x/drivers/char/m5249audio.c
00.25.09 #       <pike> whats that for?
00.25.28 #       <Zagor> it's good to look at when debugging our own audio driver
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00.33.02 #       <Zagor> bed time. night all.
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01.26.09 #       <bagawk> bye bye
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02.36.18 #       <OPP> hello
02.39.02 #       <kaboofa> Hi.
02.42.12 #       <OPP> any place where i can get indepth info about new gmini
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06.18.11 #       <ker0zene> I just popped in to say that I love what you guys are doing, good luck with the work
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09.29.46 #       <pike> I made this post to the Misticriver forums: http://eurodanceparty.is.dreaming.org/visit_djveryrelentless.8m.com_because_dj-very_is_the_best.php?clipid=d109112004 I felt I could say what I feel since I'm not affiliated with either you or Iriverlounge...
09.30.19 #       <pike> lol.. why does my clipboard screw up.. thats not the correct link, here it is: http://www.misticriver.net/boards/showthread.php?p=41484#post41484
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10.05.26 #       <[IDC]Dragon> morning Jens
10.05.35 #       <amiconn> morning Jörg
10.05.47 #       <[IDC]Dragon> no Ondio yesterday, I guess?
10.05.49 #       <amiconn> Still no Ondio here :(
10.05.56 #       <[IDC]Dragon> tomorrow then
10.06.36 #       <amiconn> Well, this is not that bad - at least I could complete some other stuff :|
10.07.12 #       <amiconn> Currently I'm doing extensive recording tests
10.07.41 #       <amiconn> Listening to the very same CD over and over :/
10.08.02 #       <[IDC]Dragon> how about a pattern fill,to rule out file system problems?
10.08.07 #       <amiconn> Still no toslink -> electrical adapter though
10.08.31 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I got plenty of those :-/
10.08.58 #       <amiconn> For a file system test, I even plan to use the RNG, with the same seed for writing and read-compare
10.09.12 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the slow one?
10.09.33 #       <[IDC]Dragon> or BCs?
10.10.12 #       <amiconn> Yesterday I asked at 2 local electronics stores for that adapter - they wanted 60,- € and 80,- €, respectively. One of them even didn't have it on stock
10.10.32 #       <amiconn> That means I'll buy the parts and solder myself
10.11.07 #       <amiconn> Not BCs RNG; either the rockbox one or my own from the grayscale lib
10.11.17 #       <[IDC]Dragon> you can get the TORX173 at Reichelt for sure, or maybe Conrad
10.12.16 #       <[IDC]Dragon> needs 5V and a resistor divider to get 75 Ohm output at 0.5V
10.12.20 #       <amiconn> Yes, reichelt has them for € 3.65 iirc, but this involves ordering.
10.12.40 #       <[IDC]Dragon> plus a coupling capacitor to get it DC free
10.12.58 #       <amiconn> Segor has them for € 4.20, and I can go there. This is even near my working place
10.13.06 #       <[IDC]Dragon> ok
10.13.28 #       <amiconn> While we are at it - do you have schematics for the reverse direction too?
10.13.45 #       <[IDC]Dragon> cinch to TOSLINK?
10.13.50 #       <amiconn> yup
10.14.00 #       <[IDC]Dragon> that's more tricky
10.14.21 #       <amiconn> Not that I need it now, but it would be nice to have a full converter
10.14.21 #       <[IDC]Dragon> because you somehow have to regain a TTL signal
10.14.35 #       <[IDC]Dragon> no, I don't
10.14.44 #       <amiconn> A comparator should be able to do that
10.14.49 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but I'm sure it's easy to find
10.15.12 #       <[IDC]Dragon> remember the signal is DC-free
10.15.33 #       <amiconn> yes
10.16.15 #       <amiconn> The 0.5V - is that peak-peak, or only one peak?
10.16.31 #       <amiconn> (i.e. do I have to divide by 10 or 20)?
10.16.38 #       <[IDC]Dragon> pp, divide by 10
10.16.48 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but the level is not critical
10.16.52 #       <amiconn> ok
10.18.01 #       <amiconn> I guess we'll get the recording going on the Ondio straight away, as soon as we have mmc access
10.18.13 #       <[IDC]Dragon> they perhaps use zero-crossing detectors, don't care for the level
10.18.31 #       <[IDC]Dragon> MMC is the key, yes
10.18.50 #       <[IDC]Dragon> without, it's kind of limited ;-)
10.19.09 #       <amiconn> The recording transfer routines in the recorder v1 and the ondio sp (!) firmwares are the very same
10.19.38 #       <amiconn> Completely unopütimized, btw
10.19.51 #       <[IDC]Dragon> have you disassembled something?
10.20.01 #       <[IDC]Dragon> or just talking about the pins?
10.20.32 #       <amiconn> sh2d -sh1
10.20.56 #       <[IDC]Dragon> and you fond the routines? Impressive!
10.21.04 #       <amiconn> And then searching for 0x04000000, simple
10.21.20 #       <[IDC]Dragon> parallel, aha
10.21.29 #       <amiconn> I also found a part of the mmc driver...
10.21.47 #       <[IDC]Dragon> let me guess how...
10.21.47 #       <amiconn> ...and the bitswap
10.22.04 #       <amiconn> The bitswap is also table lookup, unoptimized
10.23.47 #       <[IDC]Dragon> our fastest is also a lookup
10.25.31 #       <amiconn> Yes, but ours is much faster. Even my 3-stage swap without lookup is much faster than the archos one
10.25.47 #       <[IDC]Dragon> ;-)
10.26.17 #       <[IDC]Dragon> have you seen if they use DMA?
10.26.18 #       <amiconn> ...and it needs less space (contrary to our optimized table-lookup swapping)
10.26.28 #       <amiconn> DMA for what?
10.26.56 #       <amiconn> mmc?
10.27.09 #       <amiconn> Don't know yet, have to look
10.27.52 #       <[IDC]Dragon> anyway, it's not very useful to peek at bad code
10.28.48 #       <amiconn> No that I plan to use anything of it (and we're not allowed to do that), but it can be useful to verify addresses etc
10.28.55 #       <amiconn> *Not
10.32.41 #       <amiconn> They don't use dma, swapping every byte directly before transmission, resp. directly after receiving
10.33.28 #       <[IDC]Dragon> and poll for byte arrival, or within an interrupt?
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10.34.44 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (I think Hitachi made a mistake with their sync mode, since SPI is the other way round)
10.35.42 #       <amiconn> Looks like polling, as this is not an interrupt routine
10.36.05 #       <amiconn> Same goes for (at least one) routine calling it
10.36.11 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I'm sure we can do better ;-)
10.36.27 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but not necessarily in the first shot
10.37.00 #       <amiconn> I plan to reuse the bitswap we already have, and swap sector-wise
10.37.13 #       <[IDC]Dragon> yes, I thought so too
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10.39.55 #       <amiconn> Mmcs support multi-sector reading, and from the first glance it seems that there is not limit on the number of sectors you can request at once
10.40.54 #       <amiconn> Still, every sector has its own checksum (a standard CCITT CRC16), so the transfer has to be handles sector wise
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10.43.05 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the CRC in the debug menu should be a CCITT CRC16
10.43.20 #       <[IDC]Dragon> so we should make a module from that
10.43.34 #       <[IDC]Dragon> then it can be reused at verious places
10.43.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> various
10.43.59 #       * amiconn looks if this is the same polynomial
10.44.35 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but it's not the fastest, with only 4 bit lookup
10.44.44 #       <[IDC]Dragon> was optimized for size
10.45.28 #       <[IDC]Dragon> is the CRC mandatory?
10.45.31 #       <amiconn> Hmm. can't figure whether this is the same polynomial.
10.45.33 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (for writing)
10.45.55 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the first word should be the polymomial
10.46.16 #       <amiconn> It seems that we can go without, but I have yet to find a description of the mmc parameter registers
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10.47.08 #       <[IDC]Dragon> is it stored on the card, or just generated for transmission?
10.47.30 #       <amiconn> The routine in the debug menu is 0x1021, but for the mmc one I only have a term: x^16 + x^12 + x^5 + 1
10.47.31 #       <[IDC]Dragon> in the latter case, it doesn't really help
10.49.14 #       <amiconn> CRC is optional, and it is for transfer
10.49.29 #       <[IDC]Dragon> our transfer is very local
10.49.44 #       <[IDC]Dragon> so we shouldn't expect problems there
10.49.52 #       <amiconn> Just found the command, even: CRC_ON_OFF (CMD59)
10.51.07 #       <amiconn> I agree that we can leave this out. The CRC bytes are still transferred when CRC is off, but they are dontcare then
10.53.16 #       <amiconn> The only thing where the crc is _required_ is when switching the card into spi mode, but this command is static, so we can simply precalculate it
10.55.05 #       <amiconn> Another matter: any progress in analyzing the hardware?
10.56.44 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I made minor updates yesterday
10.57.34 #       <amiconn> Yes, found that. Still no working usb mode :(
10.57.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> checked the AND levels in all 4 cases:
10.58.04 #       <amiconn> How do you access the Ondio via usb when there is a rockbox ajbrec.ajz on the card?
10.58.08 #       <[IDC]Dragon> USB mode on/off, internal/external card
10.58.41 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the Archos firmware goes into USB mode before loading that
10.58.48 #       <[IDC]Dragon> like the JB
10.59.11 #       <amiconn> Ah ok
10.59.58 #       <[IDC]Dragon> btw, it's USB-powered
11.00.46 #       <amiconn> Nice! So it doesn't drain the batteries in usb mode. Does it run without batteries inserted on usb?
11.00.59 #       <[IDC]Dragon> yes
11.01.18 #       <[IDC]Dragon> very useful for my tests with the bare PCB
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11.03.10 #       <[IDC]Dragon> just found: the tuner power seems to be switched
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11.04.11 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: I just had a look at two toslink<->electrical converter kits available from ELV - these use TTL level for chinch???
11.04.48 #       <amiconn> http://www.elv-downloads.de/service/manuals/14442_Lichtleiter_Technik/TTL_KM.pdf
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11.18.23 #       <[IDC]Dragon> looks hairy: the balance it right at the switching threshold?
11.18.32 #       <[IDC]Dragon> s/the/they
11.19.48 #       <amiconn> It looks like that, yes
11.23.58 #       <[IDC]Dragon> how about retrofitting your CD player with a cinch jack?
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11.24.59 #       <amiconn> It's actually my DVD player, an old Thomson one. It doesn't even play CD-Rs, not to mention mp3
11.26.38 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I once upgraded a jack to my CD player
11.26.53 #       <[IDC]Dragon> which had no digital out
11.27.21 #       <amiconn> Another matter: I just finished my next recording test round (analog). I left out m/s stereo encoding - and I didn't get frame sync errors!
11.27.45 #       <amiconn> Where did you get the spdif signal from?
11.28.14 #       * amiconn looks up something
11.29.13 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I chased for it with a scope, found it on one of the big chips
11.30.14 #       <amiconn> That means that you'll have to know how spdif has to look like. I don't
11.30.34 #       <amiconn> I doubt that this is possible with my CD player either. It's a rather old one
11.30.44 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I found the 44.1 kHz somewhere
11.30.55 #       <[IDC]Dragon> then I was able to use that as a trigger
11.31.21 #       <[IDC]Dragon> then I went for the other pins to find a signal which is in sync to that
11.33.57 #       <amiconn> Just found that my CD writer (in the amiga) does have spdif out. Now I only have to find a connector...
11.44.24 #       <amiconn> I was wrong :( No spdif there
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13.04.03 #       <[IDC]Dragon> got disconnected without noticing
13.04.50 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I just updated the Ondio page a bit again
13.06.13 #       <amiconn> Found that (the bridge clock enable) and fixed the chip table a bit :)
13.06.45 #       <amiconn> (The table cell separator wasn't noticed by twiki for some reason)
13.07.30 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I thought I fixed that, hmm
13.15.26 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: (1) You wanted to guess how I found the mmc driver parts (2) You wanted to tell me about the logic levels
13.16.51 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (1) by the serial port addresses
13.17.06 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (2) which levels?
13.18.10 #       <amiconn> (1) Yes, although it is even a bit easier. Sh2d puts the register name as a comment behind know addresses, so you only have to search for TDR1/ RDR1
13.18.59 #       <amiconn> (2) [10:57:49] <[IDC]Dragon> checked the AND levels in all 4 cases:
13.19.11 #       <amiconn> [10:58:12] <[IDC]Dragon> USB mode on/off, internal/external card
13.22.12 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I'll add a table
13.22.41 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (later)
13.24.01 #       <[IDC]Dragon> when I enabled sync mode, I got a constant frequency at the clock line
13.24.25 #       <[IDC]Dragon> instead of bursts of 8 clocks per byte
13.24.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I didn't transmit bytes, so it should stay idle (high)
13.25.14 #       <[IDC]Dragon> probably this is another mode.
13.26.41 #       <[IDC]Dragon> lunch time
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13.50.14 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: You shouldn't get continuous clock in sync mode as per sh datasheet
13.50.14 #       <amiconn> Perhaps your serial init is incomplete
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15.28.09 #       <amiconn> hi Zagor
15.28.15 #       <Zagor> hi
15.28.53 #       <amiconn> I hacked together a test plugin for the file system, using pseudo-random data
15.29.13 #       <amiconn> I wonder why the rockbox prng is limited to 31 bit (done by you)?
15.30.44 #       <Zagor> because posix rand() is like that
15.31.30 #       <Zagor> i have a vague recollection that we got into trouble with 32-bit for some reason. can't remember exactly though.
15.31.36 #       <amiconn> ah ok. Unfortunately this limits me to only use 3 bytes
15.33.57 #       <Zagor> i can't come up with a reason right now why we shouldn't use unsigned 32-bit...
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15.36.25 #       <amiconn> Ah sh**! The rockbox rng is much too slow on the target to be useful. It worked perfectly in the sim...
15.37.54 #       <amiconn> Although that does much more resemble the way the mpeg thread does save data. Save the buffer, pause a while, save the buffer...
15.39.12 #       <Zagor> i think we may be able to solve the button issue by simply using symbolic defines instead of button codes. i'm going through the code now and it looks promising
15.40.23 #       <Zagor> the pitch screen has to go though, but that has been the plan for a long time
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15.41.40 #       <amiconn> What do you mean with symbolic defines? Having events like CALL_MENU etc. instead of raw button codes? What about the plugins?
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15.42.40 #       <Zagor> yes, something like that. plugins solve it themselves, possibly the same way
15.44.08 #       <amiconn> Imho it would be nice to have raw button events as well as pre-processed ones. The caller may then decide which ones to use
15.44.30 #       <amiconn> Of course the raw button codes have to be unique
15.46.48 #       <Zagor> yes the events are the same, we just change the switch cases to use symblic defines such as TREE_NEXT instead of BUTTON_DOWN
15.47.39 #       <Zagor> we've done it half-way in tree.c but I think/hope we can do it pretty much all over
15.49.27 #       <amiconn> This still doesn't solve the case when BUTTON_ON == BUTTON_OFF. This case must not happen. If we deal with a device with less buttons, and want to generate different events from the same button e.g. depending on whether it is pressed short or long, we need some preprocessing in the button driver
15.50.07 #       <Zagor> yeah I know. i'm doing some tests to see how many such cases we'll run into
15.50.23 #       <Zagor> we already have that processing: BUTTON_REPEAT
15.51.24 #       <amiconn> There are a number of them (temporarily disabled by Jörg). I tried enabling the plugin compilation (was a fix in the plugin lib makefile) and found that almost every plugin runs into this clash too.
15.52.03 #       <amiconn> The most ugly I found (before giving up for now) was chip8.c
15.52.04 #       <Zagor> yes but we cannot define conflicting raw events. two BUTTON_xxx codes must never have the same values.
15.52.16 #       <amiconn> Yes, exactly
15.53.00 #       <amiconn> But we still need the alternative functions of these buttons...
15.57.02 #       <amiconn> Btw, I had a quick look at an iriver ihp-120 yesterday at the local electronics store. I can't say that I like it, apart from it being rather expensive
15.58.00 #       <Zagor> i'm not a big fan of the navigation "knob", but apart from that i think it's pretty ok
15.58.13 #       <Zagor> the remote control screen is very nice
15.59.21 #       <ashridah> the nav joystick thing doesn't bother me that much, although i spend far more time using the remote, since the main unit is generally in my pocket, with the remote clipped to my collar.
16.00.03 #       <ashridah> the 3xx series uses a keypad tho if the nav stick bothers you. pity that's more expensive still :)
16.00.06 #       <Zagor> ow, that reminds me. i need to consider the ihp remote buttons too...
16.00.28 #       <ashridah> Zagor: you can buy spare remotes, so strip it and start measuring signals? :)
16.00.36 #       <amiconn> (1) I also dont like that wiggly navigation knob (2) there are several buttons scattered all around the case (3) the chrome is very susceptible to fingerprints (4) no standard 2.5" hdd
16.00.37 #       <Zagor> ashridah: yeah i much prefer that style. not a fan of the color screen though. as you say, it's mostly in the pocket anyway...
16.01.49 #       <Zagor> unfortunately 2.5" players are pretty much going extinct :(
16.01.54 #       <ashridah> i've been keeping mine in my pocket for ages, and the knob hasn't given me any trouble.
16.01.58 #       <amiconn> 20 GB isn't much, and they wanted € 389,- for the ihp-120, compared to the € 199,- for the recorder v2 (yes they still sell them)
16.02.31 #       <Zagor> amiconn: i'm not trying to sell you an ihp :)
16.02.49 #       <amiconn> Of course not ;)
16.03.29 #       <ashridah> heh. i was sold on my ihp-140 the moment i found out it supports ogg out of the box
16.03.54 #       <Zagor> ashridah: do you know anywhere I can see detailed photos of the remote? linus has our only unit.
16.04.10 #       <ashridah> of the internals, or just the outside?
16.04.13 #       <Zagor> outside
16.04.21 #       <ashridah> i'll try and find one
16.06.34 #       <ashridah> http://image.itwarehouse.com.au/images/IRI0058.JPG there's another knob on the bottom, plus a hold switch next to it
16.06.44 #       <amiconn> ashridah: I don't need ogg or wma support at all. Although .mod support could be interesting (afaik this is not found in any modile music player out of the box so far)
16.07.12 #       <ashridah> amiconn: i'm not trying to sell you on it either
16.07.24 #       <ashridah> although i imagine someone will hack it into the player via rockbox eventually.
16.07.52 #       <ashridah> Zagor: each of the side buttons can be pushed two either side, or in.
16.08.48 #       <Zagor> is there only one button on the "lower" side?
16.08.53 #       <ashridah> yeah.
16.08.56 #       <Zagor> ok
16.09.17 #       <ashridah> the other spot opposite the nav button is the hold switch which locks only the remote
16.09.23 #       <Zagor> the ring outside the play button isn't a button, is it?
16.09.28 #       <ashridah> nope
16.09.36 #       <ashridah> the play button is slightly recessed into the ring
16.09.55 #       <ashridah> pity i don't have a digital camera, i could photograph the lot for you :/
16.10.13 #       <Zagor> this is fine thanks
16.11.07 #       <ashridah> the other switch just above the stop button is the 'REC' button, which also lets you skip directories, or switch through the equaliser presets.
16.11.14 #       <ashridah> if you hold it, it switches to record mode.
16.11.23 #       <ashridah> if you hold the play button, it switches to the FM radio0
16.11.29 #       <ashridah> holding stop switches it off
16.12.44 #       <Zagor> rec skips directories? what then does nav do?
16.13.09 #       <ashridah> lets you skip files, or if you hold it, fast forwards/rewinds
16.13.39 #       <Zagor> ok so what does "skip directory" mean? goes to next record in a playlist?
16.13.40 #       <ashridah> if you press nav in, it goes to the file menu (VERY compressed on the three lines you get :), and if you hold it in, goes to the utility menus
16.13.53 #       <ashridah> Zagor: no, goes to the next directory containing files on the disk
16.14.02 #       <Zagor> do you know the actual resolution of the remote screen?
16.14.59 #       <ashridah> hmm. not sure exactly. it holds about 4 lines of text, i'm not sure if the lines are the same width as the main unit, however
16.16.03 #       <ashridah> i'd say it's got the same pixel size as the main unit, however
16.16.18 #       <ashridah> the picture doesn't look any more grainy
16.17.05 #       <ashridah> if you search the forums on www.iriver.com/community/ you'll find utilities that let you hack modified images into the firmware
16.17.28 #       <ashridah> they probably mention the dimensions of the images for the boot logo, which is probably the maximum for the display and remote
16.17.51 #       <ashridah> hmm. btw, it's not skipping directories, my bad. it's skipping '10 files' in the playlist.
16.18.06 #       <ashridah> just looked like directories because that often crosses a directory's boundary
16.18.27 #       <Zagor> ok
16.19.56 #       <ashridah> all told you have 11 buttons on the remote, each having a different action for long and short hold, plus context dependent action
16.21.53 #       <Zagor> yeah
16.24.30 #       <Zagor> how is the bottom knob marked?
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16.25.51 #       <Zagor> is that vol +/-?
16.26.43 #       <ashridah> VOL -/+, A-B/Mode (if you just press it you can set a section to be repeated within a file, if you hold it, you set the type of file repeating (file, directory, playonce, 'shuffle')
16.27.18 #       <ashridah> http://www.beermex.com/%40spc/iriver/ihpbmp/ihplogo.zip is an iriver firmware graphics mod app. it should mention the dimensions of the boot logos in the docs
16.27.36 #       <Zagor> ok thanks
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16.28.19 #       <ashridah> i don't actually recommend using it, but it may help weed out the graphics inside the firmware, to remove dead weight from dissassembly.
16.28.55 #       <Zagor> unfortunately it changes a bunch of graphics, but none of which cover the entire screen :(
16.29.10 #       <Zagor> the boot logo is 104x88 for example
16.29.17 #       <ashridah> hm. would have assumes the boot logos covered the viewable width
16.29.28 #       <Zagor> yeah me too
16.29.43 #       <ashridah> bum.
16.30.43 #       <Zagor> hmm, i find no use for the record button :)
16.30.56 #       <Zagor> (in current rockbox layout, that is)
16.31.47 #       <ashridah> i'm sure you'll come up with something
16.32.11 #       <Zagor> maybe a quickscreen
16.32.14 #       * Zagor hides
16.32.31 #       <amiconn> Zagor: There we go...
16.36.57 #       <ashridah> well, i've got to get up at 8am, and it's already past midnight, so i'm hitting the sack
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16.45.29 #       <Zagor> LinusN: please scan the cover of the ihp and the remote too. most photos on the net are too small or blurry.
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17.09.25 #       <amiconn> Zagor: I just started my fs stress test plugin (after improving it a bit) for testing an almost 2 GB file. This will run for about 8 hrs, though
17.09.59 #       <amiconn> Chances are that out file system does not cause the recording errors, since my first test run (160 MB) did not yield any error
17.13.54 #       <amiconn> I tried to mimic the file api usage of the recording code as close as possible, i.e. saving the buffer in 2 pieces (split point is pseudo-random) with fsync() after each part, and performing ata_sleep() afterwards
17.15.51 #       <amiconn> If you want to see what I have -> http://amiconn.dyndns.org/test_fs.c
17.16.10 #       <amiconn> Additionally his needs adding fsync to the plugin api
17.34.49 #       <Zagor> good test. it will be interesting to see the result
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17.59.34 #       <bagawk> brb
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18.15.21 #       <bagawk> http://gaming.engadget.com/entry/8658980455609655/
18.15.38 #       <bagawk> kinda neat, but it seems the job could have been done a bit more cleanly
18.15.44 #       <bagawk> :)
18.17.57 #       <Zagor> see mini-itx.com for a truckload of weird pc builds. such as this commodore 1541 creation: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/c1541/
18.25.29 #       <bagawk> i wish i kept my NES when it died, for a mod like that :(
18.30.29 #       <bagawk> http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/mac-itx/
18.30.36 #       <bagawk> now that is VERY neat
18.30.45 #       <bagawk> i could get a old mac se very cheap :)
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19.17.12 #       <Zagor> can the ondio have a remote control?
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19.19.21 #       <Zagor> anyone with a player who can test some new button code?
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19.22.56 #       <bagawk_> ohh     pfavr was here
19.23.01 #       <bagawk_> i was wanteing to talk to him :(
19.23.10 #       <bagawk_> time to go
19.23.11 #       <bagawk_> bye
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19.54.02 #       <amiconn> Zagor: (1) No remote for the Ondio afaik. (2) In case noone else can test on a player, I can do it in a few days :)
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20.23.06 #       <Zagor> here is my idea about button assignments for the various units: http://bjorn.haxx.se/rb-buttons.txt
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20.27.47 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Isn't volume on the player menu+left/right?
20.28.07 #       <Zagor> yes, it's a typo.
20.28.24 #       <Zagor> fixed
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20.29.17 #       <amiconn> Looks reasonable, although a few questions arise:
20.30.31 #       <amiconn> (1) What about the quick screens and f2/f3 on the recorder? (2) What about the pitch adjustment? You said the pitch screen has to go, where do you intend to put this functionality?
20.31.32 #       <amiconn> (3) Recording screen for units that are capable of recording? (4) Plugins?
20.32.14 #       <amiconn> (5) fm radio for the recorder fm and the ondio fm?
20.32.21 #       <Zagor> 1) quickscreens are by definition recorder-only, since they depend heavily on the f-keys that no other models have
20.32.31 #       <Zagor> 2) pitch goes into a menu entry
20.32.57 #       <Zagor> 3) recording is a menu entry, as today. i haven't looked at the actual screen buttons yet
20.33.39 #       <Zagor> 4) plugins need to handle this themselves. there is no way rockbox can dictate which buttons all plugins should use for whatever the plugins do
20.33.40 #       <amiconn> (6) Context sensitive menus?
20.34.20 #       <Zagor> 5) fm radio is a menu entry today - not a button issue. same with 6)
20.35.10 #       <amiconn> (recording, fm radio) I don't talk about calling these functions, this is of course done via the menu. I'm asking for the button handling in these screens
20.36.11 #       <amiconn> If you say F buttons functionality is by def recorder only, you rule out context menus for all other units, unless we come up with some clever key combos
20.36.36 #       <Zagor> i don't have an fm unit so I haven't used them. wps and browser are the only two really generic items (except menus, but they are easy) that I would really want to handle in a somewhat generic way. special features for various models may still need model-specific code
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20.37.43 #       <Zagor> F buttons are not equivalent to context-sensitive menus. but quickscreens in their current incarnation depend on f-buttons. no other model have any logical button to assign them to
20.39.02 #       <amiconn> I'm asking for this because imho recording and fm are not that special. Recording capability: recorder v1/v2/fm, ondio, iriver. FM radio: recorder fm, ondio fm, iriver
20.39.52 #       <Zagor> the feature as such is not special, but the button assignments may be difficult to make both generic and intuitive
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20.40.47 #       <Zagor> if we can make this generic for wps and browser, we've come a long way. i have no intention on coming up with an ultimate solution for all features.
20.41.22 #       <Zagor> s/intention/illusion/
20.41.57 #       <amiconn> You did this (in an imho good way) for browser and wps. It should be possible for recording and fm too. I think that should be the logical next step when wps and browser are done
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20.42.19 #       <Zagor> agreed
20.42.25 #       <amiconn> Final addition: What about the archos remote?
20.43.04 #       <Zagor> it's a carbon-copy of the player keypad (plus volume), so I didn't add it separately
20.43.41 #       <amiconn> Ok.
20.44.34 #       <amiconn> We still have to define which keys are locked when keylock is on
20.44.55 #       <Zagor> yeah, i don't have a solution for that yet
20.45.03 #       <amiconn> I guess we don't want to lock the remote keys ;)
20.45.24 #       <Zagor> someone will likely request it...
20.45.47 #       <amiconn> Iirc the current code does not do that, so...
20.46.22 #       <Zagor> yeah, i'm just joking
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20.48.42 #       <amiconn> Another addition: Currently, ON is not only shift in the browser, used alone it switches to the wps if the music is playing, but only in the root browser
20.48.55 #       <Zagor> yeah, i spotted that omission too
20.49.23 #       <Zagor> it works in the code :)
20.49.56 #       <Zagor> i plan to remove mute
20.50.20 #       <Zagor> and move id3-browser to the menu
20.50.27 #       <amiconn> That may cause a flood of complaints on the ml ;)
20.50.42 #       <Zagor> seriously? who uses mute instead of pause?
20.51.00 #       <amiconn> Dunno, really. I don't
20.53.08 #       <amiconn> As we move more and more items to the menu, we really need context sensitivity. The menu as it is now is rather large and thus not very intuitive.
20.53.21 #       <Zagor> i agree
20.54.50 #       <amiconn> Do you know how far c0utta got with that? Btw, I haven't seen him around for quite some time
20.55.38 #       <Zagor> I don't know. Linus talked with him more than I did so I think he knows a little more about his code.
21.06.17 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Another omission:  recorder: (wps)  rew = left+repeat, ffwd = right+repeat;  the equivalents for the other models
21.08.00 #       <Zagor> yup
21.08.06 #       <Zagor> also fixed in the code
21.09.21 #       <amiconn> Your list brought into a table would make a nice reference for a wiki page.
21.09.37 #       <Zagor> good point. i'll add it
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21.30.31 #       <HenrikB> Just a quick comment on id3-browse
21.32.02 #       <HenrikB> If on+play is extended to the wps it can be removed from the menu when we add Jeremy Zoss's id3 browse/edit patch
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21.32.22 #       <Zagor> on+play extended how?
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21.34.05 #       <pike> u seen the recent development of the other "alternative fw" for iriver ?
21.34.14 #       <HenrikB> So it is available from wps, and made sensitive on from where it is called from.
21.34.16 #       <Zagor> or do you simply mean context-sensitive menu?
21.34.20 #       <Zagor> ok
21.34.24 #       <HenrikB> Yes
21.35.07 #       <Zagor> pike: yes. but i decided to ignore him several days ago.
21.35.37 #       <pike> why didnt I think of that ;) well, seems like they'll be quiet from now on.
21.36.03 #       <Zagor> only time will tell...
21.39.15 #       <Zagor> it's a bit annoying that the iriver remote has different buttons than the head unit. makes making a consistent ui non-trivial.
21.40.05 #       <Zagor> for example, which button should enter the menu? the main unit has no menu button, so i've chosen the "record" button for now. but the remote *has* a "menu" button, *and* a "record"...
21.40.48 #       <Zagor> manufacturers should stop marking the buttons. they make my life more difficult ;)
21.41.00 #       <Zagor> http://rockbox.haxx.se/twiki/bin/view/Main/ButtonAssignments
21.41.02 #       <pike> yeah, I actually think the remote is smarter mapped than the main unit sometimes
21.41.18 #       <amiconn> suggestion: (main record) == (remote menu), (main record+repeat) == (remote record)
21.41.57 #       <Zagor> amiconn: not a bad idea. although the remote currently has more buttons than we have features ;)
21.42.20 #       <Zagor> (not really, just more buttons than any of our other devices)
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21.43.29 #       <tboy> hi
21.43.33 #       <Zagor> hi
21.45.17 #       <HenrikB> I have both context sensitive menues and Jeremy's id3 plugin in my own builds
21.45.25 #       <HenrikB> but since adding context sensitive menues will move a few entries from the main menu
21.45.38 #       <HenrikB> to the on+play menu it probably should wait until after 2.3
21.46.07 #       <Zagor> maybe all context sensitive menus should have a last entry "full menu"
21.47.52 #       <tboy> is there any info on rombox for the fm
21.48.25 #       <tboy> is it possible for me to flash it on mine
21.48.47 #       <tboy> or isn't there enough space
21.49.42 #       <HenrikB> Zagor, Good idea
21.49.58 #       <Zagor> tboy: fm is unfortunately too big for rombox 
21.50.02 #       <amiconn> tboy: If you can't compile yourself, the only option is to flash-change your fm into a v2. There isn't enough space with the archos fm firmware as first image. Beware that full flashing is a certain risk, and you won't have the radio available if out f1-boot
21.50.21 #       <tboy> well I can compile myself
21.50.24 #       <amiconn> s/if out/if you/
21.51.18 #       <amiconn> tboy: Then you can try the other 2 options as described on the RomBox wiki page, http://rockbox.haxx.se/twiki/bin/view/Main/RomBox
21.51.53 #       <HenrikB> Real life calls, time to leave, Bye
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21.52.16 #       <tboy> ok
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21.52.26 #       <tboy> i'll look into that
21.52.28 #       <tboy> thanx
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21.59.14 #       <dim> hi guys
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21.59.37 #       <dim> could I add a bootable system on an archos ?
22.00.11 #       <dim> my idea would to make archos a globe trotter tool as in : http://www.mandrakesoft.com/products/globetrotter
22.00.40 #       <dim> so the archos would be able to handle a kind of grub or lilo, and choose a system on boot...
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22.01.13 #       <Zagor> dim: yes, the archos is just like any other usb disk
22.01.42 #       <dim> but installing eg. a knoppix on it wouldn't hurt the system ? rockbox would still be available ?
22.01.57 #       <Zagor> yes, if you keep the fat32 filesystem
22.03.05 #       <dim> could i shrink it and modify the MBR ?
22.03.11 #       <Zagor> yes
22.03.21 #       <dim> that's a good news !
22.03.24 #       <dim> thanks ;)
22.03.28 #       <kaboofa> hmm
22.03.36 #       <kaboofa> wouldn't you risk burning out the drive?
22.03.45 #       <Zagor> burning out?
22.03.50 #       <kaboofa> i know some people did that to an ipod, and nearly killed it
22.04.06 #       <dim> so an « other » entry in lilo or grub would allow me to boot rockbox...
22.04.07 #       <Zagor> did what?
22.04.15 #       <kaboofa> installed unix on an ipod
22.04.29 #       <kaboofa> eh, whatever, hard drives are cheap
22.04.29 #       <Zagor> dim: well rockbox boots from flash and doesn't care about the boot sector (other than for the partition table)
22.04.33 #       <kaboofa> back to idle.
22.04.47 #       <Zagor> kaboofa: :)
22.05.33 #       <kaboofa> real men don't backup, they just put their hard drive on ftp and let the world mirror it
22.05.55 #       <dim> ;)
22.05.58 #       <dim> -- linus ;)
22.06.05 #       <Zagor> i like the backup-over-gmail system
22.06.21 #       <kaboofa> heh
22.06.25 #       <dim> gmail only offers 1Go... quite no value
22.06.35 #       <kaboofa> esp. if you have a few TB of crap
22.06.58 #       <dim> for half an euro you have a 4.7Go DVD you can now burn in 5 mins (16x writer)
22.07.15 #       <kaboofa> heh
22.07.22 #       <kaboofa> my new dvd burner is coming in soon
22.07.58 #       <kaboofa> so i can 'backup' my 'movies that i didn't rent from a video store'
22.08.11 #       <dim> on the archos as a bootable usb device, i'll try and let you informed
22.08.18 #       <kaboofa> roger that.
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22.27.05 #       <SmoothOperator> hey guys
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22.27.46 #       <Zagor> hi
22.27.47 #       <SmoothOperator> Has anyone here used or held an ipod?
22.27.57 #       <SmoothOperator> hello Bjorn
22.28.57 #       <Zagor> i havent
22.29.24 #       <SmoothOperator> im just burning with desire to get one, but i don't want to make a horrific mistake
22.30.06 #       <Zagor> well i hope you don't like gapless playback :)
22.30.44 #       <SmoothOperator> i don't mind if there are gaps or not. I know Rockbox sometimes does gapless playback
22.32.54 #       <Zagor> well it may not be the best player in all categories, but i can't say you're likely to make a "horrific" mistake.
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22.33.27 #       <amiconn> evening Jörg
22.33.58 #       <SmoothOperator> still like my Archos though
22.34.12 #       <SmoothOperator> i just wish it wasn't a breeze block compared to other MP3 devices
22.35.06 #       <[IDC]Dragon> hi again, just a quick visit
22.35.17 #       <SmoothOperator> hey [IDC]Dragon
22.35.49 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: Got my remark concerning sync mode this afternoon?
22.36.08 #       <[IDC]Dragon> yes, in the log
22.36.27 #       <[IDC]Dragon> there must be some different setup possible
22.37.00 #       <amiconn> archos uses default sync mode setup as described in the sh datasheet
22.37.03 #       <[IDC]Dragon> when measuring the alive PCB, i get intermittant pulses with Archos f/w
22.37.37 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the USB bridge puts out a constant clock
22.37.52 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but uses MMC mode, most likely
22.38.00 #       <amiconn> yes
22.38.50 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the MMC card I have hear appears broken, I'll try another one tomorrow
22.39.06 #       <[IDC]Dragon> can't use it to store something
22.39.17 Quit    elinenbe (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
22.39.33 #       <amiconn> Your level measurement marked 1 (?) may be in fact correct, mmc mode does not use /cs
22.39.48 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I made one more fix for the USB mode, but still no go
22.40.11 #       <[IDC]Dragon> discovered the card detect output to the bridge today
22.40.29 #       <[IDC]Dragon> now I use it, but no improvement yet
22.41.35 #       <amiconn> I hand-sniped a Studio 10 on eBay this evening :)
22.41.53 #       <[IDC]Dragon> PA12 is no chip select, it's a clock gate
22.41.59 #       <[IDC]Dragon> congrats!
22.42.07 #       <[IDC]Dragon> how much this time?
22.43.37 Part    dim ("Trying to get a real life")
22.43.43 #       <amiconn> € 95,36 including shipment
22.43.50 #       <SmoothOperator> cheers Bjorn
22.44.04 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I don't find these very cheap
22.44.37 #       <amiconn> I saw Studios go for > 150,- €, Recorders often > 200,- €
22.44.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> phew
22.45.10 #       <[IDC]Dragon> Archos should start making them again
22.46.15 #       <[IDC]Dragon> can I replace a twiki attachment?
22.46.44 #       <Zagor> i think so
22.47.01 #       <[IDC]Dragon> is it versioned? (hope not)
22.47.03 ***     Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22.47.12 #       <Zagor> yes, click attach and then 'action' for the attachment
22.47.37 #       <Zagor> they are versioned, but we have lots of disk space so don't worry
22.47.38 #       <SmoothOperator> i cannot believe the ondio lacks a backlight, yet on the Archos website it is pictured showing a blue backlight
22.47.53 #       <[IDC]Dragon> is it?
22.48.12 #       <[IDC]Dragon> mine definitely has none
22.48.16 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: Btw, The next three jukebox auctions did end as follows: a Studio20 for € 131,-, a 6000 for 78,77 and another 6000 for 101,10
22.48.36 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I'm not interested
22.51.09 #       <[IDC]Dragon> SmoothOperator: interesting that you saw one with a backlight
22.51.38 #       <[IDC]Dragon> mine has an empte footprint, and a port line going there
22.51.49 #       <[IDC]Dragon> s/empte/empty
22.52.17 #       <[IDC]Dragon> around it is space for large SMT components
22.52.28 #       <[IDC]Dragon> like inductors would be
22.52.55 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: If PA12 is a clock gate, I wonder why you measured the clock on both the internal and external flash all the time
22.52.56 #       <[IDC]Dragon> (below the CPU, see twiki page)
22.53.25 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I wonder if this could be an inverter for EL backlight
22.54.08 #       <SmoothOperator> it was on the Archos website
22.54.13 #       <SmoothOperator> i think its just a touched up image
22.55.35 #       <[IDC]Dragon> amiconn: I will check this again when I have a working MMC
22.56.34 #       <[IDC]Dragon> it's indeed strange to AND SCL1 with PA12
22.56.48 #       <[IDC]Dragon> because SCL1 is under CPU control
22.57.39 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but wait, SCL is used twice, perhaps we have to block one
22.57.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> anyway, later
22.57.48 #       <[IDC]Dragon> cu
22.57.52 Quit    [IDC]Dragon ()
23.13.03 Join    midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
23.22.02 #       <tboy> would it be possible that you guys could get the ondio
23.22.15 #       <tboy> to read/use SD memory cards
23.22.31 #       <Zagor> aren't those even different form factors?
23.22.36 #       <tboy> don't these use the same slots as mms
23.22.51 #       <tboy> well I have one digital camera here at home that supports both
23.22.56 #       <Zagor> ok
23.22.57 #       <tboy> and it has only one slot
23.23.10 #       <tboy> so I guess they must be pretty much the same
23.23.21 #       <tboy> regarding form and connector
23.24.34 #       <Zagor> i haven't studied any of those standards so I can't say if it's theoretically possible or not
23.24.46 #       <tboy> ok
23.24.55 #       <Zagor> [idc]dragon probably knows, since he has looked into the ondio
23.25.00 #       <tboy> do you have one?
23.25.07 #       <tboy> just curious
23.25.12 #       <amiconn> tboy: The form factor of sd and mmc are _almost_ the same, and controlling them in the simple mode (spi mode) is identical, but sd cards are thicker (2.1 mm) than mmc cards (1.4 mm), so they don't fit in an mmc only reader
23.25.31 #       <tboy> ok
23.25.50 #       <tboy> does it not have a backlight
23.25.57 #       <tboy> I just read the archos site
23.26.11 #       <amiconn> My ondio didn't arrive yet :(
23.26.26 #       <tboy> and they don't state that it is backlit but the picture looks like they are
23.26.40 #       <tboy> in a blue kinda color
23.26.46 #       <tboy> like you guys were talking about
23.27.11 #       <tboy> does anyone know if the have a backlight?
23.27.15 #       <Zagor> the sp photo is blue but the fm photo is green. suspicious.
23.27.36 #       <tboy> yea your right
23.28.47 #       <tboy> well we will find out eventually
23.28.56 #       <tboy> eventually is the magical word :D
23.30.05 #       <Zagor> haha, they have colin mcrae rally for the gmini. :-)
23.30.41 #       <tboy> really, which one?
23.30.57 #       <Zagor> the 400
23.31.38 #       <Zagor> they are really cranking out new models. there's a gmini xs200 coming too now.
23.32.22 #       <tboy> whats that
23.32.36 #       <tboy> what's the difference
23.33.01 #       <Zagor> http://www.allnet-italia.it/archimag/gminix200.php
23.33.03 #       <tboy> looks kinda cool
23.33.21 #       <tboy> I once saw a avos 5xx
23.33.53 #       <midk> avos 5xx?
23.34.01 #       <SmoothOperator> why has archos decided to remove the spdif from its new units?
23.34.27 #       <tboy> I'm trying to find the page
23.34.42 #       <midk> i see.
23.34.48 #       <tboy> yea its that archos av recorder
23.35.33 Quit    midk (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23.36.10 #       <SmoothOperator> Archos decided to sell the plugins for the old gmini for free
23.36.29 #       <Zagor> good move
23.36.44 #       <SmoothOperator> i think they tried the "razor blade" tactic but failed
23.37.00 Join    midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
23.37.15 #       <SmoothOperator> sell the gminis cheap to make money selling the expensive plugins
23.38.25 #       <tboy> it's what they are doing with printers and ink-cartridges
23.38.49 #       <SmoothOperator> and what Gillette does with its razors and blades
23.38.53 #       <tboy> yep
23.38.59 #       <SmoothOperator> its called "razorblade marketing"
23.39.04 #       <tboy> oh ok
23.39.31 #       <SmoothOperator> because Gillette started it off
23.39.31 #       <Zagor> i'm beginning to think xclef and iriver cooperated creating their players. just look at the xclef remote: http://www.austinv.com/reviews/XClef_HD800/pics/450/r_lcd_main.jpg
23.40.09 #       <midk> Zagor, a bit odd, but apart from the lcd it looks pretty different, wouldn't you say?
23.40.41 #       <Zagor> the buttons are very alike and even positioned the same
23.41.04 #       <pike> I'd bet it's the same lcd inside
23.45.48 Quit    midk (Remote closed the connection)
23.46.27 #       <tboy> well g'night
23.47.37 Part    tboy
23.52.09 Quit    SmoothOperator ("CGI:IRC (EOF)")
23.54.15 #       <Zagor> aha, gmini400 uses the Mophun "phone games" platform
23.54.43 Join    midk [0] (~midk@c66-235-14-120.sea2.cablespeed.com)
23.57.58 #       <Zagor> http://www.mophun.com/developer/main_phones.php?phone_id=21