--- Log for 26.11.104  Server: niven.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 16 days and 2 hours ago

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00.45.10 #       <Digital007> hi
00.45.43 #       <Digital007> does apple sell the white earphones seperately?
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01.01.33 #       <CrunchyBear> Hey everyone, was hoping someone can help. After a complete format on a 6000 player, rockbox or even the newest archos firmware won't recognise, and it just boots from the initial one ... bit confused.
01.10.04 #       <Digital007> crunchybear try reformmatting with FAT32
01.11.15 #       <Digital007> archos wont recognise NTFS
01.11.34 #       <CrunchyBear> It was just reformatted with FAT32, everything seems to run fine, except picking up the archos.mod
01.13.04 #       <Digital007> oh
01.13.19 #       <CrunchyBear> yeah, heh
01.13.57 #       <Digital007> is it flashed
01.13.58 #       <Digital007> ?
01.14.45 #       <CrunchyBear> no, I don't think so ... ?
01.15.06 #       <Digital007> dunno
01.15.20 #       <Digital007> had a archos recoder once
01.16.38 #       <Digital007> wasnt bad at all
01.16.52 #       <Digital007> on my 4th mp3 player now
01.17.08 #       <CrunchyBear> my players been fine for years and years now, never seems to fail me, jolly good players
01.17.28 #       <Digital007> yea
01.17.36 #       <Digital007> i have an iriver now
01.18.00 #       <CrunchyBear> ah cool cool
01.18.40 #       <Digital007> H120
01.19.16 #       <Digital007> they used to be called ihp-120s before HP made them change the name
01.20.16 #       <Digital007> lol
01.21.23 #       <CrunchyBear> heh
01.22.25 #       <Digital007> they said the initials HP was their trademark
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07.57.17 #       <amiconn> Good morning
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10.27.23 #       <floof> hi all
10.27.28 #       <Bagder> hi
10.28.04 #       <floof> I'm trying to know if the rockbox project is likely to run on a Gmini 220
10.28.10 #       <Bagder> it isn't
10.28.18 #       <floof> will it ?
10.28.27 #       <Bagder> I doubt that
10.28.31 #       <floof> why ?
10.28.47 #       <Bagder> feel free to make it
10.29.14 #       <floof> i would if i could, but my programming skills are below zero ...
10.29.40 #       <Bagder> so, the reason is that no owner of a gmini is skilled or determined enough
10.29.58 #       <Bagder> or gets enough assistance
10.30.22 #       <Bagder> many of us thinks Archos doesn't deserve rockbox
10.30.34 #       <Bagder> so we won't go for another archos player
10.30.39 #       <floof> why ? archos is kick ass !!!
10.30.53 #       <floof> well, my gmini at least
10.30.53 #       <Bagder> if it kicks ass, why do you want Rockbox for it?
10.31.35 #       <floof> because it could bring interressant features ... like battery saving etc ... gapless playback ...
10.31.50 #       <Bagder> so, then it doesn't kick ass since it lacks basic features
10.32.16 #       <Bagder> that's how I see it at least
10.36.46 #       <Bagder> http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/NonArchos#Gmini
10.38.28 #       <floof> ok, I'll stick with my old archos firmware ... bye
10.39.07 #       <dwihno> Bagder: Who do you think "deserves" rockbox?
10.40.09 #       <Bagder> we!
10.43.19 #       <dwihno> Talk for yourself ;)
10.43.27 #       <dwihno> I was thinking about hardware manufacturers.
10.43.34 #       <dwihno> Anyone been interested in using the rockbox project?
10.43.35 #       <Bagder> hey, I talk to myself all the time! ;-)
10.44.13 #       <Bagder> no
10.44.22 #       <Bagder> but I think Archos has been VERY ignorant
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10.48.11 #       <amiconn> Bagder: The fact that archos doesn't kick ass because it lacks basic features is imho the very reason why it *needs* rockbox.
10.48.22 #       <Bagder> I agree
10.48.51 #       <amiconn> If archos would have been good enough from the start it might have *deserved* rockbox but wouldn't need it
10.49.24 #       <Bagder> by deserving, I mean that the company could've acted differently
10.49.31 #       <amiconn> I think there is no current player hw manufacturer that deserved rockbox.
10.49.40 #       <amiconn> *deserves
10.50.25 #       <floof> do you need customers like me to ask them for it ... and maube to pressure them ?
10.50.37 #       <floof> *maybe
10.50.53 #       <amiconn> I could imagine a company deciding to produce a player that is running rockbox right from the start, and supporting the developers accordingly.
10.51.08 #       <amiconn> That company would probably deserve rockbox
10.52.12 #       <LinusN> Neuros
10.52.17 #       <floof> is there only iriver that deserves RB ?
10.52.50 #       <LinusN> we don't know if they deserve it or not, we haven't been in touch with them
10.53.45 #       <amiconn> LinusN: What about Neuros?
10.54.31 #       <LinusN> they want to build a player for rockbox
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10.58.02 #       <[IDC]Dragon> OT: my 1 GB MMC arrived
10.58.26 #       <[IDC]Dragon> and I left the Ondio at home
10.58.39 #       <amiconn> LinusN: Is that a new device, or the same thing they recently released the sources for? The latter imho doesn't qualify as a device that truly deserves rockbox.
10.58.42 #       <LinusN> [IDC]Dragon: no EL modules?
10.58.43 #       <amiconn> [IDC]Dragon: :(
10.58.58 #       <LinusN> amiconn: read again: "want to"
10.59.03 #       <[IDC]Dragon> LinusN: EL is coming? :-)
10.59.43 #       <amiconn> LinusN: Did they contact you or what?
10.59.54 #       <amiconn> There's nothing in the wiki yet
11.00.30 #       <LinusN> amiconn: we're not talking loudly about it, because it is so far only a thought in Joe Born's head
11.00.37 #       <LinusN> http://www.rockbox.org/irc/rockbox-20040916.txt
11.00.51 #       <dwihno> LinusN: they want to build the player around the software? :O
11.01.19 #       <LinusN> [IDC]Dragon: i have ordered the modules to your address
11.01.36 #       <[IDC]Dragon> thank you so much
11.02.32 #       <LinusN> you're welcome
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11.42.03 #       <amiconn> LinusN: Very interesting chat with JoeBorn indeed. I missed that somehow...
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14.13.31 #       <till_varoquaux> Hello
14.13.38 #       <LinusN> hi
14.13.42 #       <till_varoquaux> I have a very dumb question
14.14.00 #       <LinusN> shoot
14.14.24 #       <till_varoquaux> has any of the devs try to contact archos to see if you could make a device hand in hand with them
14.14.26 #       <till_varoquaux> ?
14.14.36 #       <LinusN> nope
14.14.49 #       <till_varoquaux> That could turn out interesting
14.15.02 #       <LinusN> i very much doubt it
14.15.13 #       <dwihno> LinusN: tell me more about neuros... are they considering manufacturing a new unit and using rockbox as os?
14.15.29 #       <LinusN> they have discussed it with us
14.15.42 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean actually trying to pick out hardware that would be easier/more flexible to programm
14.16.05 #       <LinusN> till_varoquaux: it's not in their interest
14.16.13 #       <webmind> till_varoquaux, that would increase the cost
14.16.20 #       <till_varoquaux> They could really benefit from your work however
14.16.25 #       <dwihno> LinusN: nothing more happenend? :(
14.16.39 #       <till_varoquaux> Oh I see...
14.16.45 #       <till_varoquaux> and why that?
14.16.50 #       <LinusN> they are into video devices nowadays, and there's not much in rockbox they have use for
14.17.24 #       <till_varoquaux> Yeah but they could try to getan open source firmware for this
14.17.56 #       <till_varoquaux> And I'm pretty shure the community as tons of ideas for design improvements
14.18.04 #       <LinusN> here's my view of it:
14.18.13 #       <LinusN> they want to sell hardware
14.18.35 #       <LinusN> if they release the firmware, they prolong the lifespan of their products
14.18.46 #       <LinusN> and they sell less devices
14.19.00 #       <till_varoquaux> Yeah bu they could have a better market share
14.19.24 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean with Ipods swarming the whole business
14.19.56 #       <LinusN> sure, but i doubt that their management gets it
14.19.57 #       <Zagor> LinusN: personally I doubt they have analyzed it that much. i rather think they simply don't understand what we do.
14.19.58 #       <ashridah> till_varoquaux: market share isn't a major driving force. increasing profits are, which you only get by developing a 'new' product every XXX units of time and selling them again to early adopters
14.20.23 #       <till_varoquaux> My point of view (I might be very wrong):
14.20.41 #       <ashridah> releasing a kickass product, and then not being able to sell new ones because the public gets what they want won't get them as far
14.20.53 #       <till_varoquaux> Developpement of units could be cheaper for them
14.21.08 #       <till_varoquaux> There is always room for hardware improvements
14.21.21 #       <till_varoquaux> (this is already what they do)
14.22.07 #       <till_varoquaux> and people would be a lot more enclined to use the units if it had something  friendlier than musicmatch budled with it
14.22.44 #       <till_varoquaux> I thight integration with amarok for instance (or winamp) could be a reall plus
14.23.03 #       <till_varoquaux> And they would benefit from a savier design
14.23.55 #       <till_varoquaux> (I think there units while being technologically great don't have teh good looks of an IPOD)
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14.25.54 #       <till_varoquaux> anyone here?
14.25.58 #       <LinusN> yes
14.26.05 #       <Zagor> amarok?
14.26.14 #       <till_varoquaux> it's for linux
14.26.22 #       <till_varoquaux> looks a lot like itunes
14.26.34 #       <LinusN> i too think that an open source firmware might be good for archos
14.26.43 #       <Zagor> what's to integrate? it's a collection of files.
14.26.43 #       <LinusN> but i don't care
14.26.57 #       <till_varoquaux> one could port it easilly t windows and mac
14.27.20 #       <Zagor> half the point of the archos is that you don't have to use silly programs, just copy the files and play them
14.27.31 #       <till_varoquaux> I know
14.27.33 #       <LinusN> exactly
14.27.38 #       <Zagor> i would never buy a player that required pc software
14.27.47 #       <till_varoquaux> that's why I liked my jukebox
14.28.21 #       <till_varoquaux> however this doesn't prevent to integrate synchrisation... to players
14.28.32 #       <till_varoquaux> keeping the best of both world
14.29.09 #       <till_varoquaux> And the multimedia requires you to recompress most of your movies
14.29.10 #       <Zagor> i don't understand what that means. the player plays mp3 files. what is there to "integrate"?
14.29.40 #       <till_varoquaux> just a very simple mirror utility would to the trick
14.30.32 #       <Zagor> that's a software issue, nothing with the player. hence no integration.
14.30.55 #       <till_varoquaux> Yes this is partially true:
14.31.18 #       <till_varoquaux> If you get pluggable DRM modules you could have full integration
14.31.30 #       <till_varoquaux> from the store to the player
14.31.41 #       <till_varoquaux> and thats firmware issues
14.31.46 #       <Zagor> sure, if you want to be sued by apple
14.32.25 #       <till_varoquaux> Some other companies might be interested in building there own DRM nodules
14.32.37 #       <till_varoquaux> not necessarilly Fair Use
14.32.39 #       <Zagor> i don't think itunes is a concept to copy. it's way too locked in and annoys customers
14.32.58 #       <till_varoquaux> I don't like it either but it works
14.33.06 #       <LinusN> [IDC]Dragon: i just committed the metronome tap patch, could you try it on the ondio?
14.33.24 #       <[IDC]Dragon> not now, but later, yes
14.33.39 #       <till_varoquaux> And given the fact that most (if not all) online music stores have there own DRM
14.34.03 #       <Zagor> not so, only american stores
14.34.05 #       <LinusN> [IDC]Dragon: thanks
14.34.13 #       <till_varoquaux> you will want one day to be able to get a player able to play DRM'd file
14.34.21 #       <Zagor> I don't
14.34.28 #       <till_varoquaux> Wasn't aware of this
14.35.09 #       <till_varoquaux> most customers like to have a package that works out of the box (store player...)
14.35.34 #       <till_varoquaux> this could be done with the involvement of the open source community
14.35.55 #       <Zagor> open source and drm are pretty incompatible
14.36.02 #       <till_varoquaux> And I would favour store that don't sell DRM'd files
14.36.36 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean open source firmware but closed source DRM pluggins for playback
14.36.54 #       <Zagor> then it is not open source
14.37.04 #       <till_varoquaux> not the plug-in
14.37.32 #       <till_varoquaux> for instance currently I'm using eclipse(ide for java)
14.37.38 #       <till_varoquaux> it's gpl'd
14.37.57 #       <Zagor> so basically you're asking why archos doesn't setup a music store and try to compete with apple on their turf?
14.37.58 #       <till_varoquaux> but there are commercial plug-ins for i
14.38.04 #       <till_varoquaux> nope
14.38.28 #       <Zagor> yeah but how much do you think we want to work for free just so others can profit from our work, and not even share their code?
14.38.52 #       <till_varoquaux> I get your point
14.39.07 #       <Zagor> it's very difficult do mix open and closed source. many have tried, few have succeeded.
14.39.32 #       <till_varoquaux> As you have pointed out some stores don't use DRM
14.39.55 #       <till_varoquaux> these are just examples of what could be done
14.40.32 #       <till_varoquaux> my point is Archos definitly has the edge when it comes to hardware
14.40.35 #       <LinusN> [IDC]Dragon: aaah, the ondio metronome keys are still not correct
14.41.10 #       <till_varoquaux> however their CHI is not as User-Friendly (arguably) as others
14.41.30 #       <till_varoquaux> And there design could also benefit for some improvements
14.41.38 #       <Zagor> yes, the iPod is not successful because it has better software. it is successful because they have spent many many millions on marketing.
14.41.53 #       <till_varoquaux> well yes and no
14.42.01 #       <till_varoquaux> It looksmuch better
14.42.05 #       <Zagor> (and to a certain degree because apple has very loyal followers)
14.43.08 #       <till_varoquaux> but an archos player could have all (and much more) of the qualities of the Ipod
14.43.25 #       <Bagder> so could most mp3 players
14.43.39 #       <Bagder> *could* being the word
14.43.40 #       <Zagor> which qualities are that, exactly? two-second gap between songs? seven-click volume adjustment?
14.44.02 #       <till_varoquaux> Much better design
14.44.04 #       <Bagder> good-looking
14.44.17 #       <Bagder> apparently people think so
14.45.06 #       <till_varoquaux> And indexed file searching (this is arguable because it currently requires a special upload mechanisme)
14.45.24 #       <Bagder> several players have that
14.45.34 #       <till_varoquaux> easy as pie to get working with a music player/music store
14.46.14 #       <till_varoquaux> and trendy because of addvertisement
14.46.41 #       <Zagor> those are not properties, they are just marketing impressions
14.47.01 #       * Bagder is trying to figure out what the point in this discussion is
14.47.02 #       <Zagor> i've never heard anyone have problems copying their music to an archos
14.47.08 #       <Zagor> Bagder: so do i :)
14.51.36 #       <Zagor> i think perhaps my point is that trying to copy the ipod is not going to make anyone happy. those who like the ipod should buy it.
14.51.54 #       <Zagor> also, irrational brand loyalty is not good for you :)
15.16.09 #       <till_varoquaux> Yeah I guess you are somehow right
15.16.59 #       <till_varoquaux> I just don't like the looks of archos units (I think most of them are plain ugly)
15.17.34 #       <till_varoquaux> and I was wondering why they weren't trying to get more feedback from there users
15.18.17 #       <Zagor> i agree with you about the looks, even though it seems they are starting to learn that now. the gmini 400 isn't bad imho.
15.18.33 #       <till_varoquaux> I also think (and I guess we'll all agree on that) that *their* firmware is not as good as it could be
15.19.01 #       <Zagor> well no mp3 player comes with good firmware, that's not an archos thing
15.19.35 #       <till_varoquaux> Since they have terrific hardware I thought they could really do a killer unit if they worked hand in hand with the users willing to get involbed
15.19.58 #       <till_varoquaux> but I guess the Ipod was a very bad exemple
15.20.11 #       <Zagor> yes, but that is very unnatural for any company to do. I wouldn't expect it to happen anywhere for several more years.
15.20.25 #       <till_varoquaux> sigh
15.20.43 #       <Zagor> companies are not used to customers knowing more than their engineers.... ;)
15.20.48 #       <till_varoquaux> I just think you guys could offer to give a hand
15.21.01 #       <Bagder> hahaha
15.21.05 #       <Bagder> you are naive
15.21.13 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean they *are* shipping Rockbox with th jukebox now
15.21.27 #       <till_varoquaux> Badger: I might be
15.21.44 #       <Bagder> they know where we are
15.21.47 #       <Bagder> they know what we do
15.21.50 #       <Bagder> they know what we can
15.21.57 #       <Zagor> do they? i spoke to their marketing guy about that a long time ago, but they demanded we call rockbox a "cooperation project"
15.22.13 #       <Zagor> (do they ship?)
15.22.30 #       <till_varoquaux> I read a news saying they did
15.22.40 #       <Zagor> got a link?
15.22.57 #       <till_varoquaux> I bought my jukebox very long ago and I sure didn't have it
15.23.04 #       <till_varoquaux> I'll search for one
15.24.05 #       <till_varoquaux> http://www.rockbox.org/mail/archive/rockbox-archive-2002-12/0302.shtml
15.24.09 #       <till_varoquaux> there you go
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15.24.33 #       <Bagder> till_varoquaux: Zagor is Björn
15.24.38 #       <Bagder> who wrote that mail
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15.24.50 #       <till_varoquaux> Hmmm
15.25.00 #       <Bagder> "plans" being the word to focus on
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15.25.16 #       <Zagor> we spoke on the phone a few times, but it never happened as far as I know.
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15.25.28 #       <till_varoquaux> so Rockbox never got shipped with the jukebox
15.25.37 #       <Zagor> as far as I know, no
15.25.41 #       <till_varoquaux> that's sad.....
15.25.50 #       <till_varoquaux> I thought it had
15.26.31 #       <till_varoquaux> so my utopia of archos walking hand in hand with the community is fading away
15.26.35 #       <till_varoquaux> ;-(
15.28.41 #       <till_varoquaux> I guess it would take a lot of work to get archos to understand it is good for *them* to open up a little there business model
15.28.57 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean they are selling hardware not software
15.33.54 #       <Zagor> exactly
15.34.34 #       <till_varoquaux> dang I gotta go in a couple of minuts
15.35.28 #       <till_varoquaux> well if you think a gesture towards archos to work with this community could have any positive impact I'm willing to try to get it working
15.36.42 #       <Zagor> thanks, but we're not terribly interested. we have no plans to support their newer players, so there is not much they could offer us. a "thank you" would be nice, of course but I have a very hard time seeing that happen :)
15.37.45 #       <till_varoquaux> so if I get it right
15.38.26 #       <till_varoquaux> If they opened the specs for one of there futur products (or even better asked you your advice)
15.38.54 #       <till_varoquaux> you would decline (because you don't have time and/or interest)
15.39.03 #       <till_varoquaux> ?
15.39.31 #       <Bagder> I bet a bunch of people would be happy to develop for it
15.39.40 #       <Bagder> rockbox is open source
15.39.54 #       <Bagder> anyone can make it run on a new platform, given some time and sweat
15.40.13 #       <Bagder> and lots of skill of course
15.40.14 #       <Zagor> if they wanted honest cooperation we'd probably be interested, but of course we can't make any promises
15.40.32 #       <till_varoquaux> I just need to know if there would be support from the community if they offered to open up
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15.41.25 #       <till_varoquaux> I mean I can't justb go up to them and ask to have a more open devellopement model if I don't have back-up
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15.41.34 #       <till_varoquaux> I meant offer
15.41.54 #       <Bagder> we can never guarantee anything
15.41.56 #       <Zagor> well, you can't *know*. you can have strong indications, but the whole point of open source is that everyone does what he wants to.
15.42.08 #       <Bagder> unless they pay
15.42.08 #       <till_varoquaux> Yes I get it
15.42.58 #       <Zagor> if they were seriously interested in approaching the community, I'm sure we could agree on good ways of cooperation though.
15.43.15 #       <Bagder> I'm sure we would
15.43.34 #       <Bagder> ...just that it won't happen
15.43.49 #       <till_varoquaux> Well I guess I might still give it a shot
15.44.19 #       <till_varoquaux> I need to get a serious offer together first
15.44.29 #       <till_varoquaux> foster a community maybe
15.44.38 #       <till_varoquaux> but who knows?
15.44.54 #       <Zagor> what would such an offer contain?
15.45.22 #       <till_varoquaux> Well not really an offer
15.45.39 #       <till_varoquaux> I meant showing there is potential
15.46.02 #       <till_varoquaux> and peoples willing to cooperate
15.46.17 #       <till_varoquaux> not come just as a lunatic
15.46.33 #       <Zagor> well they know about us very well, so that's not a problem
15.46.46 #       <till_varoquaux> thx gotta go
15.47.21 #       <till_varoquaux> but I'll try to thing about a good to get things started when I'll have spare time
15.47.54 #       <till_varoquaux> There is still a lot to discuss about
15.48.13 #       <till_varoquaux> and I guess that I'm going nowhere fast
15.48.28 #       <Zagor> i'm available for discussion
15.48.34 #       <till_varoquaux> but hey... as said before who knows?
15.48.39 #       <till_varoquaux> thanks
15.48.47 #       <till_varoquaux> see you around
15.49.04 #       <Zagor> yup
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18.59.47 #       <Tang> hi all folks :)
19.04.02 #       <Tang> I don't know if it's known
19.04.27 #       <Tang> but i have to say that in the past
19.05.03 #       <Tang> some guys tld about a n alt.firmware for iHP called "Ennis project"
19.05.51 #       <Tang> the matter is tyhat nobody know if it was real or just hoax
19.06.15 #       <Tang> anyway theses guys said they stopped their project
19.06.24 #       <Tang> due to iRiver pressures...
19.06.59 #       <Bagder> interesting
19.07.13 #       <Tang> So if it's true i don't think there is something to wait from iriver about "helping"
19.07.29 #       <Tang> I also do know for sure
19.07.37 #       <Bagder> we never thought they'd help us
19.08.19 #       <Tang> ok i have i
19.08.31 #       <Tang> misunderstood something about the neuros chat maybe
19.08.58 #       <Tang> anyway i hope the compagny won't be aware of your project
19.09.12 #       <Bagder> I doubt it matters
19.09.16 #       <Bagder> we do nothing illegal
19.09.26 #       <Tang> yes i do know but
19.09.52 #       <Tang> seems they are quite "agressive" with all alt project
19.10.04 #       <Tang> for exemple they were
19.10.14 #       <Bagder> I guess we'll see then
19.10.24 #       <Tang> okay
19.10.48 #       <Tang> for exemple iriver didn't aprpeciate that much all the inetrface customizing stuff
19.11.15 #       <Tang> (they removed all thrads about theses tools on their boards and so on
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19.12.10 #       <Tang> Anyway pesonnaly i think rockbox iRiverport is the best things that could happen for iRiver
19.12.40 #       <Tang> since their own firmware support is simply awful
19.12.48 #       <Bagder> :-)
19.13.02 #       <Bagder> I've orded one now
19.13.08 #       <Tang> you too
19.13.14 #       <Bagder> gotta go
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19.13.42 #       <Tang> i heard zagior ordered 3 i thought it was for some Rckbx memebers
19.14.05 #       <Tang> i don't realyy understand how the projetc work
19.14.45 #       <Tang> is there a wiki page about the reockbox organisation for exemple
19.15.21 #       <Tang> i'm just curious about how you cn coordinate so much members work
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19.26.19 #       <Tang> i've to go bye :)
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22.46.00 #       <billyk> Hi. Wondering if someone could help me out. I opened up my Rockbox because acording to the Rock Box website, I think I'm having the JBR V1 connector problem since I only get 2 hours of life out of it
22.46.09 #       <billyk> Opened my Archos JBR.
22.46.53 #       <billyk> One one side, I have the connectors as described on the RockBox website. On the other side, I don't. Should the connectors be on both sides?
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22.58.47 #       <billyk> Anyone know if the archos JBR V1 should have the battery connector wire on both sides of the baateries? 
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