--- Log for 31.01.105  Server: zelazny.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot_  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 18 days and 12 hours ago

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09.42.58 #       <HCl> yay. bootloader iriver is finished.
09.43.15 #       * HCl waits for the reflashing interface and then it should finally be somewhat test/developable
09.43.23 #       <rasher> oh boy
09.43.37 #       <HCl> ?
09.43.44 #       <rasher> I'm excited :)
09.43.47 #       <HCl>  :p
09.44.27 #       <HCl> can't wait till the bootloader/flasher will be declared stable, i've been dying to get my hands dirty on development
09.45.31 #       <rasher> I'm probably just going to wait a bit longer
09.45.44 #       <HCl> *nods*
09.46.02 #       <HCl> yea, the audio driver isn't even working yet xD
09.48.02 #       <rasher> I have a devilish plan of looking at hacking on sid input at some point in time
09.48.24 #       <HCl> sid input..? *doesn't know what that is*
09.48.34 #       <rasher> c64 Music file format
09.48.37 #       <HCl> ahhh
09.48.40 #       <HCl> that sid
09.48.41 #       <HCl>  :p
09.49.07 #       <HCl> isn't it sort of like midi? or am i completely wrong about that?
09.49.33 #       <rasher> I guess you could say that in a way
09.49.50 #       <rasher> It's not real sound, no
09.49.51 #       <HCl> well, or more like MOD, really..
09.50.04 #       <rasher> I don't know any details at all
09.50.05 #       <HCl> since midi is with instrument crap..
09.55.32 #       <HCl> okay
09.58.21 #       <LinusN> c64 music is not easy at all
09.58.37 #       <LinusN> you emulate a 6510 cpu + the 6581 sound chip
09.59.06 #       <rasher> there are a few libraries for that though, aren't there?
09.59.10 #       <ashridah> heh, that's going to be entertaining on a coldfire cpu 
09.59.32 #       <LinusN> i guess there is some open source sid emulation somewhere
09.59.50 #       <HCl> c64 emulation shouldn't be too heavy... its a c64.. after all.
10.00.07 #       <rasher> I think there are two libraries
10.00.09 #       <HCl> how much cpu power does the iriver have anyways?
10.00.19 #       <LinusN> meeting, i'll be back
10.02.30 #       <ashridah> HCl: a fair amount, one or two hundred MHz, if memory serves, but power usage increases with cpu speed, naturally.
10.03.21 #       <rasher> http://sidplay2.sourceforge.net/ <- c, gpl library
10.03.26 #       <ashridah> i'd be more worried about whether the sid libraries use floating-point math or not
10.03.37 #       <rasher> That might be a problem
10.03.40 #       <ashridah> because that'll require a fair amount of work to fix.
10.05.39 #       <ashridah> i'd grab a copy of the source code and start poking through it 
10.05.57 #       <HCl> nice.
10.05.58 #       <HCl> well.
10.06.09 #       <HCl> as long as it'll eventually do on the fly playlists
10.06.12 #       <HCl> and play tetris
10.06.17 #       <HCl> i'll be happy
10.06.18 #       <HCl>  :P
10.06.28 #       <ashridah> i'm interested in flac support a bit
10.06.49 #       <ashridah> not sure why, probably only because a mate's mp3 player supports it and i want him to stop trying to lord it over everyone ;)
10.06.52 #       <HCl> i'm a bit curious about aac, it'd be interesting if it'd actually be possible to use the digital out to produce 5.1 output
10.06.59 #       <HCl> lol.
10.07.05 #       <HCl> i don't even know what flac is exactly :X
10.07.11 #       <rasher> lossless format
10.07.19 #       <ashridah> free lossless audio codec
10.07.20 #       <HCl> how?
10.07.21 #       <rasher> part of the ogg family
10.07.39 #       <rasher> HCl: it just doesn't remove anything that it can't put back exactly like it was
10.07.48 #       <rasher> like zip, except optimized for audio
10.07.51 #       <HCl> odd, but okay
10.08.07 #       <ashridah> HCl: it's basically an on-the-fly decompressible stream, as opposed to an on-the-fly decodable approximation stream :)
10.08.13 #       <HCl> mhm.
10.08.17 #       <HCl> i get the idea..
10.08.39 #       <dwihno> I thought lossless audio compression was really hard to achieve
10.08.50 #       * HCl afks for a while.. breakfast.. coffee..
10.08.56 #       <rasher> You could run zipped wav
10.09.00 #       <rasher> But that'd be horrible
10.09.01 #       <ashridah> dwihno: it does use more bandwidth, but .wav's can actually compress reasonably well
10.09.26 #       <ashridah> the idea is that flac's got the things that make mp3 useful, like framing and whatnot (or whatever's appropriately similar that flac uses)
10.09.27 #       <dwihno> ashridah: I guess I have to check it out :)
10.09.33 #       <rasher> It's just a matter of tuning the compression and making it a stream
10.09.53 #       <ashridah> rasher: well, no, you need keyframes to allow for quick searching too
10.10.32 #       <rasher> True
10.10.38 #       <rasher> Last I checked, they compress to about 40% of the uncompressed wav
10.10.43 #       <rasher> I think
10.10.53 #       * dwihno tests the flac encoder on a recently ripped wav
10.12.09 #       <ashridah> given the signal/noise ratio of my usual listening environments (uni, train, home in a room full of pc equipment and stuff) i don't see how removing the loss from the audio is really going to help me much :)
10.12.36 #       <rasher> I've pondered using it for backing up my cds
10.12.40 #       <rasher> but haven't bothered yet
10.12.46 #       <ashridah> plus i kinda prefer my music fitting into my iriver h140 atm, with room to spare to be useful as a data transport device
10.14.14 #       <ashridah> ogg gives me a plausible tradeoff between size and quality
10.15.37 #       <rasher> Yes, I'm not really sure why you'd want a lossless codec on a portable player
10.15.58 #       <dwihno> rasher: Using it for CD backup might be a nice idea actually
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10.16.31 #       <dwihno> 29 526 437 bytes, was 50 208 188
10.16.57 #       <LinusN> rasher: it is pretty useful for recording material that you know you want to edit afterwards
10.17.15 #       <rasher> Good point
10.17.48 #       <ashridah> and for taunting audiophiles about the poor quality of their lossy mp3s stored in their ipod >:)
10.17.49 #       <dwihno> really really nice with lossless audio
10.18.24 Join    Zagor [242] (~bjst@labb.contactor.se)
10.18.36 #       <rasher> ashridah: you're forgetting about apple lossless here :)
10.18.54 #       <ashridah> i don't care about apple.
10.19.20 #       <rasher> I'm just noting that audiophiles would probably have lossless music on their ipod
10.19.22 #       <Bagder> I like apples. And oranges.
10.19.22 #       <ashridah> all of the people i know who bought ipods did it because of the colour (i'm not kidding)
10.19.53 #       <rasher> I don't know anyone with an ipod
10.19.59 #       <dwihno> What is the resolution of the ihp?
10.20.18 #       <Bagder> you mean the LCD?
10.20.18 #       <dwihno> archos is 128x64?
10.20.18 #       <ashridah> about 3 of my friends went out and bought iriver H1xx/3xx's after i got my H130 :)
10.20.21 #       <dwihno> Bagder: yeah
10.20.22 #       <ashridah> H140 even
10.20.39 #       <Bagder> dwihno: 160x128
10.20.43 #       <Bagder> 4 greyscales
10.21.00 #       <dwihno> aah
10.21.01 #       <Bagder> or rather, black
10.21.01 #       <dwihno> neat
10.21.08 #       <Bagder> and white + 2 grey
10.21.10 #       <ashridah> heh. sounds like it's enough to play tetris :)
10.21.43 #       * HCl yawns
10.21.57 #       <HCl> yup, it is
10.22.13 #       <rasher> I'm impressed by battery time so far
10.22.20 #       <dwihno> Bagder: Is it a dumb idea to do more than 1-bit graphics yet?
10.22.45 #       <Bagder> dwihno: so far we only use 1 bit on it
10.22.50 Nick    ashridah is now known as Lost-tv (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
10.23.24 #       <Bagder> but having 2bit graphics around might motivate us more to work harder on getting it to work ;-)
10.23.59 #       <dwihno> :-)
10.24.10 #       <dwihno> I was thinking about antialiased usb screen ;)
10.24.26 #       <Zagor> dwihno: yeah, focus on the vitals :)
10.24.37 #       <Bagder> focus on the fun!
10.24.48 #       <dwihno> Zagor: as always! :)
10.25.43 #       <dwihno> you guys tested out the bootloader yet?
10.26.04 #       * HCl is waiting till the flash interface is included...
10.26.25 #       <HCl> and till its declared stable, i don't think i could ever acquire a bdm wiggler to fix it if i flash badly
10.26.31 #       <Zagor> unfortunately, a friend has borrowed my h140 so i can't test it this week
10.26.46 #       <dwihno> Zagor: how dull :(
10.26.46 Join    Lynx_ [0] (HydraIRC@134.95.189.59)
10.27.00 #       <dwihno> Zagor: well, by the end of the week, Linus will probably have mp3 playback up'n' running ;)
10.27.06 #       <Zagor> haha
10.27.07 #       <HCl>  :P
10.27.14 #       <dwihno> :)
10.27.32 #       <Lynx_> hi guys!
10.28.30 #       <Lynx_> been skiing for a week, did i miss anything major happening?
10.29.18 #       <HCl> sorta
10.29.25 #       <HCl> iriver bootloader's working
10.30.25 #       <Lynx_> cool :)
10.47.14 #       <LinusN> i'll add a few more safety nets to the boot loader, so hold your bravery until then
10.48.43 #       <Lynx_> What's the first possible iriver that'll be ported to, H120?
10.49.15 #       <LinusN> yes (and H140, since they are the same hardwarewise)
10.50.24 #       <Lynx_> phew, 386 euro for the 120, would you say it's much better than the archos recorder?
10.53.27 #       <Zagor> "better" is subjective. it all depends what qualities you prioritize.
10.53.54 #       <dwihno> how about audio output?
10.54.50 #       <Zagor> i haven't done substantial tests, but at least my iriver has a very faint background noise that my archos doesn't have. it's very very faint though, not at all as annoying as the original archos buzz.
10.56.14 #       <dwihno> hm
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11.10.42 #       <LinusN> Zagor: like my recorder background noise?
11.12.40 #       <rasher> Zagor: have you tried without the remote?
11.12.50 #       <Zagor> rasher: yes
11.13.02 #       <Zagor> LinusN: i don't remember how that sounds
11.13.38 #       <rasher> I'm pretty sure the remote adds some noise, but if that's not what you talk about
11.14.27 #       <Zagor> no, i had my headphones plugged in to the iriver directly
11.14.32 #       <rasher> alright
11.15.00 #       <Zagor> actually, i didn't notice it until i unplugged my headphones. that's how faint it is.
11.15.13 #       <rasher> heh
11.15.33 #       <rasher> I don't think I have anywhere silent enough to go
11.18.22 #       <Zagor> lunch
11.20.37 #       <rasher> Hm, I can't for the life of me hear any faint noise
11.20.45 #       <rasher> I guess my ears are just damaged :)
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11.22.27 #       * rasher listens to the iRiver song
11.22.34 #       <rasher> this is so cheesy
11.22.37 #       <rasher> I absolutely love it
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12.07.24 #       <Lost-tv> the remote sometimes adds faint induced beeps to the earphones when you use the buttons on it, particularly noticable when you don't have music playing and you're scrolling the file list, and you're in a quiet place. at least, they used to. i think iriver fixed it somehow, not sure exactly.
12.07.24 Nick    Lost-tv is now known as ashridah (ashridah@220-253-121-119.VIC.netspace.net.au)
12.08.11 #       <rasher> They claimed that in one of the changelogs, but it's still there for me
12.08.28 #       <rasher> but I only hear it at volumes less than 4-5
12.08.35 #       <ashridah> i haven't checked tbh.
12.09.15 #       <ashridah> as i remarked previously, 95% of the time, i'm using it someplace where there's already a high level of noise
12.09.24 #       <rasher> yeah me too
12.10.22 #       <ashridah> like a party i went to the other night which i crashed at, and one of the girls in the room snored.
12.10.26 #       <ashridah> god that was a horrible night
12.10.45 #       <rasher> Sounds it
12.10.58 #       <ashridah> i ended up using my iriver to cut out the snoring. i still didn't sleep, but at least i wasn't listening to her 
12.11.11 #       <rasher> you should have a file of white noise
12.11.18 #       <rasher> for such occasions
12.11.20 #       * ashridah huggles the ultra-long battery life in the iriver
12.11.44 #       <rasher> Yes, it really does seem nicely long
12.12.13 #       <ashridah> it's decently sized, and since it's li-poly, it's supposed to last through more charge cycles than standard li-ion
12.12.24 #       <ashridah> not supposed to turn flame-thrower if you cut it either
12.12.24 #       <ze> i once slept in a room with 5 other guys who sounded like they were having a snoring contest
12.12.29 #       <ashridah> although i don't remember if that's true.
12.12.41 #       <ze> i didn't have anything to block out the noise with, but i did manage to get to sleep despite it :p
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12.52.27 Join    webguest43 [0] (~8f416314@labb.contactor.se)
12.54.56 #       <webguest43> Hi ! Quick question: is the h140 as big as the 340 ?
12.55.28 #       <Zagor> did you check iriver.com?
12.56.45 #       <rasher> If he didn't, I can understand why
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13.09.28 #       <ashridah> yeah, god damned flash-based hell its become
13.18.34 Join    webguest43 [0] (~8f416314@labb.contactor.se)
13.19.00 #       <webguest43> well i tried to check iriver website, but could not find the size info... its flash hell there...
13.20.44 #       <webguest43> ah found it
13.20.53 #       * HCl yawns
13.21.26 #       <webguest43> just if you are interested: h120:19mm deep, h140: 22mm, h320: 22.5mm, h340: 25mm
13.23.20 #       * HCl has an h140
13.23.47 #       <HCl> i don't suppose there's anyone who can tell me exactly whats better about the h340? cause from what i saw on the website it just added useless features like a color screen and stuff...
13.25.26 #       <webguest43> and its 30g heavier, that is 172 > 203g
13.25.53 #       <Bagder> the 3x0 has usb "on the go"
13.26.15 #       <rasher> What does that mean?
13.26.45 #       <Bagder> it can be a usb host
13.26.59 #       <webguest43> well it connects to digicam, so you can empty your pics on it. I like that, but for the rest you are right, useless features, less fancy remote. They do include a dock though, but as there is no sound output on the bottom it still cant hook up to the stereo via the dock.
13.27.20 #       <rasher> I'd LIKE a less fancy remote
13.27.25 #       <rasher> seriously
13.27.42 #       <rasher> The h1x0 one tries (and succeeds, I think) to do EVERYTHING
13.28.03 #       <rasher> but eh
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13.28.12 #       <Quelsaruk> hi
13.31.08 Join    R3nTiL [0] (~zorroz@217.30.249.199)
13.31.25 #       <webguest43> you can buy the one without screen as a spare
13.31.55 #       <rasher> Well that's extra money spent.. it's not *that* bad :)
13.40.04 #       <Quelsaruk> Bagder: are you here?
13.40.11 #       <Bagder> yeps
13.40.14 #       <Quelsaruk> ok
13.40.15 #       <Quelsaruk> :)
13.41.07 #       <Quelsaruk> i made a small mod in uplang script, using an idea amiconn gave me. I changed the script so it doesn't update the voice line except the eng: line has changed.
13.41.35 #       <Quelsaruk> that is, if you write the same in english, you expect the voice hasn't changed.
13.41.45 #       <Quelsaruk> what do you think about that?
13.42.34 #       <Bagder> I'm fine with whatver you and amiconn agree on. I'm not much into voicing.
13.42.51 #       <Bagder> except for those in my head! ;-)
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13.44.17 #       <Quelsaruk> hehe
13.44.25 #       <Quelsaruk> is not just voicing
13.44.36 #       <Quelsaruk> is for updating language files
13.44.37 #       <Quelsaruk> :)
13.45.07 #       <Quelsaruk> it's horrible if you have to change again all the voices and use previous voices
13.47.15 #       <HCl> okay
13.47.29 #       <HCl> so my impression of the h3x0 was kind of right :P didn't know it could be usb host though, but yea :p
13.47.43 #       <Quelsaruk> amiconn: here?
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13.58.00 #       <ripnetUK> ive had an idea to make the bootloader safer - how about instead of re-directing the reset vector to the rockbox check-for-record-and-branch routine, we put a jump into a less critical section of the original iRiver rom, such as when switching to radio. That way, if it goes wrong, you can use the inbuilt flasher to reflash. This could be called a 'test' mkboot. Once this is shown to work, the brave can redirect the reset vector to it
13.58.47 #       <LinusN> but then it's a lot harder to make it work on different versions of the iriver firmware
13.59.10 #       <LinusN> since we have to disassemble each version to find the spot
13.59.58 #       <ripnetUK> i spose
14.00.10 #       <ripnetUK> but we only need to 'support' one version (verified by md5)
14.00.35 #       <ripnetUK> im hoping that soon(ish) which version of the iRiver firmware will be irrelevent to me ;)
14.00.37 #       <LinusN> really? what about different versions for different parts of the world?
14.00.47 #       <LinusN> eu/us/kr versions
14.00.50 #       <ripnetUK> as far as i knew, they were all interchangable
14.01.14 #       <ripnetUK> my uk one ran the kr version for a while, with no bad things (tm) happening
14.01.38 #       <LinusN> brb
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14.18.11 #       <LinusN> back
14.19.28 #       <ripnetUK> i assume its the same reset vector for 'cold start' and 'reset button pressed?'
14.19.45 #       <LinusN> yes
14.19.48 #       <ripnetUK> k
14.29.53 #       <ashridah> LinusN: isn't the only difference is the default language so far as i can tell
14.30.03 #       <ashridah> i've used the korean and the us version interchangably
14.34.50 #       <ripnetUK> the battery life of the iRiver is amazing - i have just copied ~40 gigs onto it, and its still going srong
14.34.52 #       <ripnetUK> strong
14.37.55 #       <Lynx_> damn, is there anything one can do to rescue a non-working compact flash card?
14.38.33 #       <ripnetUK> i will rephrase that :) the iRiver doesnt update its battery status while plugged into usb
14.38.47 #       <rasher> nice
14.38.51 #       <Bagder> hehe
14.39.02 #       <rasher> but it really is nice battery life afaik
14.40.05 #       <ripnetUK> yeah, managed to run since ~ 10 this morning with continious disk access... as soon as i brag about how good it is it dies
14.41.43 #       <rasher> let's hope it didn't trash your drive
14.41.58 #       <rasher> I say trash, I mean upset the fat
14.42.00 #       <ripnetUK> not too bothered if it did
14.42.26 #       <rasher> I accidently pulled the usb cable while transferring a file
14.42.40 #       <rasher> I THOUGHT IT WAS DONE! HOW ON EARTH COULD IT TAKE THAT LONG
14.42.58 #       <rasher> anyway, I got a few alleged tera-byte files from that stunt
14.42.59 #       <ripnetUK> i just wiped everything and took a copy from work of my 'off site backup' as I think the drive in my linux box has died... do any linux folk know if a failed (non root, non system) drive (which is simply mounted as /amoutnname ) can compeltely hang linux?
14.43.04 #       <rasher> nothing a scandisk couldn't fix
14.43.27 #       <rasher> hm, it shouldn't
14.43.39 #       <rasher> but I guess it's a posibility
14.44.15 #       <ripnetUK> thats what i thought, but ive been having unexplained hangs on my box recently, and this morning, it couldnt find hda1 (but hda was there). Its possible i cought the ide cable as I removed a ram stick (to eliminate it), but i cant find out till after work
14.46.47 #       <ashridah> ripnetUK: i've seen things like that take out a linux box completely before.
14.46.52 #       <ashridah> not for a while tho
14.47.23 #       <LinusN> ashridah: i've been told that the eu version has a cap on the volume
14.47.31 #       <ashridah> LinusN: interesting.
14.47.37 #       <LinusN> eu regulations
14.47.39 #       <ashridah> they have visible differences in the splash screen too
14.48.01 #       <LinusN> rasher: i thought you had to unmount the disk before pluggin the usb cable
14.48.07 #       <LinusN> unplugging
14.48.22 #       <LinusN> the operating system would have said that it was busy
14.49.04 #       <rasher> LinusN: yeah, although I think you can make it do unbuffered access in which case it shouldn't be necessary
14.49.10 #       <rasher> but I forgot to do any of those
14.49.16 #       <rasher> I was in a hurry :)
14.50.12 #       <dwihno> LinusN: you don't have to remove any kernel modules or such? only umount the file system?
14.51.44 #       <ashridah> dwihno: unmounting will do the trick. so far as i know, the usb-storage driver ensures that stuff is synced to disk properly, although i tend to run the filesystem with 'sync' on anyway.
14.53.59 #       <ripnetUK> ash - fingers crossed its just a failed hard drive then :) cant face the thought of a reinstall at the moment
14.54.35 #       <dwihno> ashridah: ah, okay
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15.24.22 #       <amiconn> Quelsaruk: Now I am here.
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15.38.47 #       <HCl> http://www.iis.fraunhofer.de/amm/download/mp3surround/downloadpage.html
15.38.54 #       <HCl> mp3 in dolby 5.1
15.39.03 #       <HCl> maybe interesting to have alongside aac...
15.39.54 #       <Zagor> how many records do you have in 5.1? :-)
15.40.05 #       <HCl> *shrugs* only a few movies :P
15.40.20 #       <HCl> its still interesting though
15.41.06 #       <LinusN> the cpu can only handle 2 channels
15.41.30 #       <Bagder> "pick which 2 channels you want to hear:" :-)
15.41.38 #       <Zagor> lol
15.41.38 #       <LinusN> :-)
15.42.06 #       <Zagor> now this is what we need, an M&M sorter: http://www.lightlink.com/dream/chris/msorter.htm
15.43.04 #       <Bagder> yay, it does Skittles too
15.48.49 #       <HCl> LinusN: hm, so iriver digital out can't do 5.1 ?
15.51.05 #       <ShyK> hacks of a format that should have been dead long ago are hardly interesting
15.51.31 #       <Bagder> they might be if many people use it
15.51.42 #       <Bagder> Windows, Word and similar comes to mind ;-)
15.52.10 #       <Bagder> ok, windows is not a format
15.52.27 #       <ShyK> word isn't either
15.52.40 #       <Bagder> well, it saves in a format
15.52.50 #       <ShyK> it saves in many formats
15.52.58 #       <Bagder> the reasoning still applies
15.53.07 #       <ShyK> hardly. doc has many versions.
15.53.12 #       <LinusN> HCl: no
15.53.13 #       <Bagder> I think they all suck
15.54.00 #       <ShyK> exactly, they suck, that's why it's uninteresting
15.54.03 #       <ShyK> as is mp3
15.54.05 #       <Bagder> hacks of a format that should have been dead a long time ago
15.54.19 #       <Bagder> but the amount of users makes it "interesting" anyway
15.54.31 #       <Bagder> like FAT32 for filesystems
15.54.45 #       <ShyK> interesting to companies that make money, not users who want new better technology
15.55.02 #       <Zagor> ShyK: most users have mountains of data in legacy formats
15.55.33 #       <ShyK> that's mainly because companies and various developers don't progress and stick with legacy formats
15.55.39 #       <ShyK> it's not the users' fault
15.55.45 #       <Bagder> mainstream users don't want better technology, they want things to work
15.55.54 #       <LinusN> as far as i'm concerned, mp3 is good enough for me
15.55.57 #       <Zagor> it's mostly because the old format is "good enough"
15.56.03 #       <ShyK> it's not about what "mainstream" wants, it's about what can benefit everyone
15.56.29 #       <Zagor> many non-geeks don't want to change technology every few years
15.56.49 #       <LinusN> most "new and better" formats are more about DRM than audio quality
15.56.49 #       <ShyK> mp3 has been around in large scale since 1995. it's been 10 years.
15.57.06 #       <Bagder> then again, I don't think 5.1 mp3 will be a "hit"
15.57.21 #       <ShyK> not only will it not be a hit, it will never be anything
15.57.31 #       <ShyK> no one will adopt this nonsense
15.57.36 #       <Zagor> >2 channels hasn't taken off outside movies, and i don't expect it will
15.57.37 #       <Bagder> well, mp3pro was adopted
15.57.55 #       <ShyK> hardly, and it's mostly dead by now
15.58.10 #       <Zagor> wma was adopted. aac was adopted.
15.58.11 #       <LinusN> mostly by those compelled to jump on the next new train everytime
15.58.20 #       <Bagder> true
15.58.25 #       <Zagor> drm is the name of the game these days
15.58.38 #       <LinusN> exactly
15.58.44 #       <LinusN> most "new and better" formats are more about DRM than audio quality
15.58.51 #       <ShyK> "mainstream" users don't want drm because it doesn't benefit them.
15.59.15 #       <LinusN> they don't care, or even know
15.59.16 #       <Bagder> except that they can buy such songs from iTunes ;-)
15.59.29 #       <LinusN> they adopt drm formats because they don't know better
15.59.39 #       <Zagor> because they don't get any alternatives
15.59.49 #       <ShyK> everywhere it's mentioned that drm protected files can be played by "this and this" limited thing. so users know.
16.00.06 #       <LinusN> so they buy that specific player
16.00.33 #       <ShyK> i don't see wma being a hit even though it's widely supported
16.00.48 #       <Zagor> ShyK: witness itunes. users don't care about drm as long as they get their weekly britney spears.
16.01.00 #       <ShyK> if users really did "use what there is" 99% of people would use wma
16.01.04 #       <LinusN> wait until the PayForSure campain has gained momentum
16.01.13 #       <LinusN> them wma will be popular
16.01.35 #       <ShyK> wma will never be popular. i've seen people expecting wma to get popular for many years.
16.01.37 #       <ShyK> nothing's changed.
16.01.51 #       <ShyK> and drm gives absolutely no benefit to users
16.01.54 #       <ShyK> so it'll die too
16.01.59 #       <Zagor> yes it does: it provides content
16.02.03 #       <LinusN> don't be so sure
16.02.11 #       <Bagder> I don't see DRM dying
16.02.15 #       <ShyK> it provides very limited content. users hate limited content.
16.02.21 #       <LinusN> if drm is the only legal way to get your compressed songs...
16.02.23 #       <Zagor> users hate itunes?
16.02.30 #       <ShyK> itunes is a player.
16.02.35 #       <Zagor> no
16.02.38 #       <ShyK> yes
16.02.38 #       <LinusN> itunes is a service
16.02.46 #       <ShyK> itunes store is a service
16.03.14 #       <Zagor> so, users hate itunes store?
16.03.40 #       <ShyK> users who use itunes store use it, and that's a very limited amount of users.
16.04.01 #       <ShyK> the users who are more "mainstream" than mainstream
16.04.41 #       <Zagor> those are the mainstream users. you must accept that you and I are not the average mp3 player users anymore.
16.04.55 #       <ShyK> i don't have to accept this because the facts show otherwise
16.05.11 #       <Bagder> what facts?
16.06.23 #       <HCl> i kind of agree
16.06.31 #       <HCl> only idiots will buy stuff that limits theirselves..
16.06.36 #       <ShyK> surveys have been made that show users would rather buy cds than pay for songs on the internet, which are protected. itunes barely has any decent content if any, and has a much smaller amount of users than expected. all serious technology websites outcast drm as it's bad for all users.
16.07.14 #       <HCl> but bill gates has this whole take-over-the-internet planned for the next windows release along with chips to prevent cracked copies of software and movies and whatnot
16.07.24 #       <HCl> so that might have an impact a bit
16.07.37 #       <Zagor> ShyK: so who is it that bought the last quarter billion songs from itunes then?
16.08.09 #       <LinusN> and who are the idiots that buy all those copy-protected CD:s?
16.08.09 #       <ShyK> quarter billion?
16.08.12 #       <Zagor> yes
16.08.14 #       <jyp> Drm will work only if they give the computers for free, since you don't own it any more.
16.08.20 #       <ShyK> Zagor: where's that from?
16.08.26 #       <Bagder> I think the amount of users is so huge so that there will remain users who use DRM and those who don't
16.08.27 #       <HCl> LinusN: i dunno, just a lot of people are kind of stupid if you'd ask me :)
16.08.40 #       <Zagor> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050124/sfm059_1.html
16.08.55 #       <LinusN> HCl: yes, they are called "average users"
16.08.59 #       <HCl>  :P
16.08.59 #       <Zagor> "1.25 million songs per day"
16.09.00 #       <HCl> i know :P
16.09.10 #       <HCl> i'll still call them stupid though :X
16.09.16 #       <ShyK> 250 million, not billion.
16.09.18 #       <LinusN> i do too :-)
16.09.18 #       <HCl> music is about making music
16.09.20 #       <HCl> not making money.
16.09.28 #       <Zagor> ShyK: 250 million == one quarter billion
16.09.47 #       <ShyK> oh i read incorrectly sorry
16.10.05 #       <ShyK> anyway. if you calculate it, you can see that it's not much at all.
16.10.30 #       <Zagor> i don't like it any more than anyone here does, but denying it is happening does not help
16.11.48 #       <ShyK> companies supporting drm also doesn't help any users.
16.11.57 #       <Zagor> i agree
16.12.02 #       <Bagder> they help users buy content
16.12.05 #       <Bagder> like itunes
16.12.11 #       <Zagor> neither do drugs, but still people buy it
16.12.12 #       <ShyK> anyway, 250 million songs from itunes' start until now is very little.
16.12.21 #       <HCl> when did it start?
16.13.12 #       <ShyK> second quarter of 2003 i think
16.14.22 #       <HCl> then i think 250 million is quite a lot...
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16.14.32 #       <HCl> how many users is that? by average?
16.14.42 #       <HCl> 15 songs per user..? is that reasonable..?
16.15.18 #       <HCl> so you have like.. 17 million users... hm.
16.15.48 #       <HCl> well, no disaster just yet, i suppose, if you compare it to the total amount of people that use computers.
16.16.10 #       <HCl> i'm kind of worried about whats microsoft planning though.
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16.16.34 #       <Zagor> they are planning to kill itunes, naturally
16.16.35 #       <HCl> what microsofts*
16.16.48 #       <HCl> not just that. they're planning to kill off linux as well.
16.17.02 #       <Zagor> yeah, but that's old news :-)
16.17.08 #       <HCl> i forgot what that chip was called
16.17.14 #       <HCl> plus they renamed it in order to confuse people >.<
16.17.33 #       <HCl> anyways, new pcs will have this chip that'll make it refuse to run protected programs
16.17.40 #       <HCl> er
16.17.42 #       <HCl> not protected programs
16.18.25 #       <jyp> No one with a brain will buy those.
16.18.31 #       <ShyK> amazon sells tens of thousands of _albums_ every day. cds, not lousy aac files.
16.18.52 #       <HCl> jyp: i don't know. there are a lot of stupid people out there..
16.19.07 #       <HCl> i agree ShyK, i'd much rather have a cd than digital files
16.19.15 #       <HCl> cause you can just lose those files when your pc crashes
16.19.29 #       <HCl> and who's to say itunes store will stay in the air for you to download them again when you want to
16.20.06 #       <HCl> jyp: and seeing as the next windows update will support such a chip, and the one after that will *require* one
16.20.21 #       <HCl> at least, if everything goes as microsoft planned.
16.20.31 #       <ShyK> those are rumors HCl.
16.20.46 #       <HCl> sigh, not rumors.. i lost the site, i'll try and find it :/
16.20.58 #       <HCl> the chip's already present in ibm thinkpad laptops -.-
16.21.43 #       <HCl> ahyes.
16.21.48 #       <HCl> its called palladium
16.22.03 #       <ShyK> Microsoft will not outcast its main userbase, who is "pirates". Microsoft is deliberately allowing Windows to be used by "pirates". and it's not going to change any time.
16.22.05 #       <HCl> http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,274309,00.asp
16.22.26 #       <ShyK> extremetech is not what i call i reliable source
16.22.32 #       <HCl> it was first called tcpa
16.22.34 #       <ShyK> a*
16.22.39 #       <HCl> sorry, i got the first link i found with google :P
16.22.42 #       <HCl> but fine
16.22.48 #       <HCl> i don't really care if you don't believe me o.o;
16.22.55 #       <HCl> its not like i want to put in the effort
16.23.03 #       <ShyK> i don't need to believe you or not, there are rumors and there are facts.
16.23.18 #       <Zagor> palladium is real, but does not affect the free world. you can still choose not to be bound by bills shackles.
16.23.30 #       <HCl> Zagor: yes, but it'll be like how linux <-> windows are now.
16.23.43 #       <HCl> its cumbersome to run linux because its far from as supported as windwos
16.23.45 #       <HCl> windows
16.23.48 #       <Zagor> enforcing it can actually benefit linux uptake
16.23.55 #       <HCl> yes, thats very true.
16.24.06 #       <HCl> i'm kind of hoping that'll happen.
16.25.17 #       <LinusN> the sad thing is that most users are probably totally unaware of the whole drm thing
16.25.24 #       <HCl> they are.
16.25.33 #       <HCl> and its not without a reason, companys like it that way.
16.25.39 #       <HCl> till they're so grown into drm
16.25.42 #       <HCl> that there's no way back
16.25.44 #       <LinusN> exactly
16.25.58 #       <HCl> same exact reason
16.26.06 #       <HCl> why microsoft is keeping palladium on the down low
16.26.26 #       <LinusN> there are very few conscious users, "with a brain", as jyp put it
16.26.39 #       <HCl> *sighs*
16.26.40 #       <HCl>  :/
16.26.48 #       <HCl> ah well.
16.26.52 #       <HCl> i know i'll resist all the way.
16.27.06 #       <ShyK> this will never happen. drm will never succeed in large scale. in order to succeed, especially for big companies, they need "illegal" users. it's an integral part. "illegal" users are the main cause for most successes of software as well as hardware.
16.27.38 #       <LinusN> not the media business
16.27.47 #       <ShyK> especially the media business
16.27.48 #       <LinusN> Time Warner doesn't depend on pirates
16.28.07 #       <ShyK> everyone depends on pirates
16.28.22 #       <ShyK> their products would gain near to no recognition without it
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16.28.39 #       <LinusN> i don't get it
16.28.45 #       <jyp> If I were them, I'd give away the drm computers & make money with the content.
16.29.01 #       <LinusN> you mean the dvd:s won't sell if they aren't copied?
16.29.05 #       <Zagor> jyp: why, when you can make money on both?
16.29.46 #       <jyp> It's a proven marketing model ;)
16.29.57 #       <ShyK> LinusN: for example, many people rent dvds in order to copy them. they wouldn't have rented them if they couldn't do that. they'd just download from somewhere.
16.30.42 #       <jyp> French people could give their experience with "minitel"...
16.30.56 #       <jyp> the same approach
16.31.00 #       <LinusN> ShyK: i believe very few people rent dvd:s to copy them, they don't even have the equipment
16.31.50 #       <LinusN> few people compared to those who rent them only to watch them
16.31.53 #       <ShyK> you base that assumption on nothing as opposed to me, i've been checking things like this on forums and places everywhere. it's a very popular thing to rent a dvd for cheap and copy it.
16.32.21 #       <Bagder> based on all my friends, it is very rare
16.32.25 #       <Bagder> I wouldn't do it myself
16.32.25 #       <LinusN> and how many average users do you think frequent these forums?
16.32.35 #       <Zagor> ShyK: there's a real world out there. full of people who don't even know there are forums where such things are discussed.
16.32.48 #       <HCl> actually, most dvds tend to be larger than dvd-r's, and its not trivial to copy them
16.32.57 #       <HCl> unless you own a dual layer dvd writer.
16.33.03 #       <HCl> and dual layer dvd-r's are expensive
16.33.05 #       <ShyK> if you think i don't know about the "real world" and the "geek world" you're wrong. i'm not only talking about online.
16.33.08 #       <LinusN> exactly, and those are pretty new
16.33.09 #       <HCl> cause then you could just as well buy the dvd
16.33.23 #       <HCl> ofcourse, creating a divx out of a dvd is well possible
16.33.27 #       <HCl> but i wouldn't really call that a copy
16.33.34 #       <LinusN> and absolutely not for the average user
16.33.43 #       <ShyK> people don't care if it's a perfect or not perfect copy
16.33.49 #       <Zagor> ShyK: good. then you know 95% of people don't even have dvd writers.
16.34.26 #       <ShyK> Zagor: i mentioned one example.
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16.35.41 #       <ShyK> many people download movies in not full quality, watch them, and if they decide they really like the movie, they buy it. many don't buy of course, many don't have the money to spend.
16.36.18 #       <ShyK> very many people have been buying the star wars trilogy dvds
16.36.25 #       <LinusN> most of my non-geek friends don't even know how to dowload a movie
16.36.26 #       <ShyK> why? it's not like they haven't downloaded it all
16.36.44 #       <ShyK> everyone knows about kazaa at least
16.36.50 #       <Bagder> no
16.37.11 #       <elinenbe> LinusN: congrats on the iriver progress... It's looking G-R-E-A-T!  Has anyone else tried the bootloader yet?
16.37.21 #       <LinusN> i hope not :-)
16.37.25 #       <Bagder> the iriver rockbox doesn't do anything yet
16.37.38 #       <Bagder> trying the bootloader is fairly pointless 
16.37.52 #       <LinusN> all risk to no gain
16.37.58 #       <Bagder> I'll await Linus' change of panic() ;-)
16.38.08 #       <LinusN> :-)
16.50.33 #       <Bagder> it struck me that one advantage of adding a bootloader built to the cvs build table, is that then we could offer downloads of the bleeding bootloaders too
16.50.56 #       <LinusN> yes
16.51.45 #       <LinusN> also, we should verify it with the most popular versions of the original firmware
16.52.04 #       <Bagder> yeps
16.52.17 #       <LinusN> i think a wiki page with the "approved" versions of the boot loader
16.54.15 #       <Bagder> ok, I added a bootloader build just now
16.54.45 #       <Bagder> I'm considering converting the titles to rotated images
16.54.54 #       <Bagder> to make each column narrower
16.55.35 #       <Bagder> anyone with a patch pending?
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16.57.30 #       <Zagor> nope
16.59.12 #       * LinusN browses the patch tracker
16.59.20 #       <LinusN> lots of pending patches .-)
16.59.26 #       <Zagor> :)
16.59.35 #       * Bagder pokes LinusN with a stick
16.59.39 #       <LinusN> ouch
17.02.46 #       <Bagder> I'll also provide a diff-link in the HTML page describing changes in a particular commit
17.03.00 #       <Bagder> I miss that at times
17.03.10 #       <LinusN> cool
17.05.02 #       <Bagder> bbl
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17.37.06 #       * HCl returns
17.37.08 #       <HCl> hey markun
17.37.12 #       <markun> Hi!
17.37.15 #       <HCl> sup?
17.37.31 #       <markun> Busy day.
17.37.34 #       <HCl> mhm.
17.37.34 #       <HCl> same.
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20.19.58 #       <preglow> ahoy
20.20.30 #       <Bagder> hehe, my diff-link was pretty lame
20.20.56 #       <Bagder> http://www.rockbox.org/cvsmod/cvsmod-2005-01-31%2018:00:01.html
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20.26.40 #       <preglow> so, anyone tested the bootloader yet?
20.27.40 #       <Bagder> nah
20.27.44 #       <Bagder> nothing to boot yet really
20.29.23 #       <preglow> sure, coding an off switch first would probably be wise
20.29.43 #       <Bagder> and something more than flashing backlight ;-)
20.29.59 #       <preglow> but i sure would like to code something, but think linus' advice of waiting for someone closer to the bdm interface to test it was good
20.30.08 #       <preglow> haha
20.30.34 #       <Bagder> I'll proceed after some further changes by Linus
20.30.55 #       <preglow> goodie
20.46.32 #       * HCl grins.
20.56.38 #       <HCl> what is minimon exactly? and why is it called that?
20.58.17 #       <Bagder> its a "monitor program" and I take it is small == mini
20.58.33 #       <Bagder> http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/UartBoot
21.03.38 #       <preglow> the irivers have a functioning serial port that just lack a connector, yes?
21.03.53 #       <Bagder> yes
21.04.01 #       <Bagder> afaiu
21.04.25 #       <preglow> i think someone detected that the original firmware wrote garbage to it, so it probably works
21.04.28 #       <preglow> which is good news
21.04.30 #       <Bagder> we should work on getting a gdb stub working for it
21.04.34 #       <preglow> yes
21.04.49 #       <Bagder> Linus wrote one for the Archos, and he says its not that hard
21.05.05 #       <preglow> i wouldn't know, i'm not very proficient with gdb
21.05.18 #       <Bagder> I trust his words ;-)
21.05.37 #       <preglow> heh, i don't see why he should lie, no
21.08.57 #       <preglow> i even have a level converter chip in my drawer, woot
21.10.29 #       <Bagder> :-)
21.16.41 #       <amiconn> Bagder: There seems to be a bug in viewcvs, see http://www.rockbox.org/viewcvs.cgi/apps/misc.c.diff?r1=1.23&r2=1.24 . It claims there were no changes, which isn't true.
21.17.10 #       <amiconn> There was a change in whitespace (only), but *within* a string.
21.17.29 #       <Bagder> yes, select unidiff and it is shown
21.18.19 #       <amiconn> Hmm.
21.18.25 #       <Bagder> I guess it has no context sensitivity
21.18.34 #       <Bagder> so whitespace-change is always just whitespace change
21.20.56 #       <Bagder> btw, my diff fix works now
21.21.03 #       <Bagder> http://www.rockbox.org/cvsmod/cvsmod-2005-01-31%2019:40:01.html
21.22.44 #       <Bagder> ah, and the iriver boot build works now too
21.39.10 Join    [IDC]Dragon [0] (~Joerg@pD95125A6.dip.t-dialin.net)
21.39.52 #       <[IDC]Dragon> why do we want the bootloader in the daily build?
21.40.04 #       <Bagder> to make sure it builds fine
21.40.17 #       <Bagder> and to be able to provide bleeding edge builds
21.40.22 #       <[IDC]Dragon> for good reason, we don't do so with the Archos one neither
21.40.51 #       <[IDC]Dragon> well, at least no public download
21.41.09 #       <[IDC]Dragon> and anybody fooling around with it
21.41.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> ...everybody...
21.41.55 #       <Bagder> gotta go
21.47.53 Quit    methangas (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/")
21.50.41 #       <HCl> whats a gdb stub?
21.55.16 #       <preglow> a little program for the player that lets you debug it over a serial port, i'd guess
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22.16.25 ***     Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
22.23.50 Quit    [IDC]Dragon (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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22.37.20 #       <amiconn> hi [IDC]Dragon
22.39.30 #       <[IDC]Dragon> hi Jens
22.39.50 #       <amiconn> I just sent you an email with some info about my MMC image.
22.39.56 #       <[IDC]Dragon> you've been productive yesterday :-)
22.40.08 #       <amiconn> Did you already find some time to look into it?
22.40.14 #       * [IDC]Dragon looks
22.42.50 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I've just installed a tool to write the image back
22.43.08 #       <amiconn> Don't you have cygwin installed?
22.43.15 #       <amiconn> I simply used dd
22.44.04 #       <[IDC]Dragon> ok, can try that
22.44.26 #       * [IDC]Dragon grabs the MMC
22.44.38 #       <amiconn> You'll need the virtual device name for the drive (the Ondio or the card reader, whatever
22.44.40 #       <amiconn> )
22.45.04 #       <[IDC]Dragon> my notebook conveniently has a slot for it
22.46.09 #       <amiconn> Open the disk management console ("Datenträgerverwaltung"), and check the drive number ("Datenträger <n>")
22.46.27 Quit    edx ()
22.46.36 #       <amiconn> Drive 0 is /dev/sda in cygwin, drive 1 is /dev/sdb and so on
22.47.16 #       <amiconn> I'm certain you don't want to overwrite /dev/sda ;-)
22.47.39 #       <HCl> preglow: oh.. i thought that was already possible for iriver
22.48.45 #       <[IDC]Dragon> it doesn't shop up there
22.49.01 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but got drive E:
22.49.34 #       <amiconn> It has to show up there if it is recognised...
22.49.59 #       <amiconn> The drive letter is irrelevant.
22.50.13 #       <[IDC]Dragon> the card is definitely accessible
22.51.42 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but not shown in "Datenträgerverwaltung"
22.52.45 #       <amiconn> That's strange; I never observed such behaviour on all machines I have access to (that's a lot)
22.53.00 #       <amiconn> Does the Ondio show up there when you connect it?
22.53.09 #       <preglow> HCl: nah, only other possible debugging option is bdm, as far as i know
22.53.47 #       <[IDC]Dragon> later, can't test now
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22.59.56 #       <Bagder> you think images like this would be a good idea for the cvs build table? => http://www.rockbox.org/auto/pix.html
23.00.47 #       <Bagder> would make the columns less wide
23.02.12 #       <amiconn> Maybe. However, it would be better if readable from the right side. Can't this be done with css?
23.02.14 #       <[IDC]Dragon> uh, tha's narrow ;-)
23.02.34 #       <Bagder> nope, css can't rotate
23.02.36 #       <[IDC]Dragon> how many more do you expect?
23.02.46 #       <Bagder> I don't know
23.03.03 #       <preglow> ahh, i really dislike rotated table headers :/
23.03.28 #       <Bagder> I guess I should wait until the table is too wide for most people's browser windows
23.03.49 #       <preglow> heh
23.04.07 #       <Bagder> these images are all created automatically by my script anyway, so it is an easy fix
23.08.21 #       <preglow> it exactly fits in my window
23.08.39 #       <preglow> ahh, no, it's resizes itself :P
23.08.55 #       <preglow> small wonder, then
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23.11.04 #       <_aLF> hi
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23.12.52 #       <[IDC]Dragon> I can't USB-access the MMC in the ondio
23.13.09 #       <amiconn> Huh?
23.13.11 #       <[IDC]Dragon> perhaps something broken with hotswap?
23.13.20 #       <[IDC]Dragon> internal mem works
23.13.46 #       <[IDC]Dragon> anyway, later, away now
23.13.50 #       <amiconn> Works for me...
23.15.40 #       <[IDC]Dragon> not away
23.16.01 #       <[IDC]Dragon> internal shows up in disk management
23.16.50 #       <[IDC]Dragon> ah, now
23.17.50 Quit    elinenbe (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- s0 d4Mn l33t |t'z 5c4rY!")
23.18.36 #       <[IDC]Dragon> it is /dev/sdb now
23.19.13 #       <[IDC]Dragon> do you have the command line at hand, to restore?
23.19.46 #       <amiconn> dd if=mmc_dump.bin of=/dev/sdb
23.20.07 #       <amiconn> Be sure to have the write cache off
23.20.35 #       <[IDC]Dragon> too late
23.21.07 #       <amiconn> At least don't access it with explorer before removing and reinserting.
23.21.08 #       <[IDC]Dragon> but I think it's off by default
23.22.02 #       <amiconn> (Or accessing it at all via the file system. Maybe the file system uses cached info...)
23.22.05 #       <[IDC]Dragon> 1 GB took 30 min
23.22.20 #       <[IDC]Dragon> so this may be like 7 min
23.23.01 #       <amiconn> Write cache is off by default if you use the Windows supplied drivers. The archos drivers (necessary for player/studio) switches it on by default.
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23.35.02 #       <HCl> preglow: whats the difference...?
23.37.22 #       <preglow> HCl: the bdm interface is tons more low level
23.37.32 #       <preglow> HCl: and requires heaps more wiring 
23.38.03 #       <HCl> okay..
23.38.16 #       <HCl> but you still need to like, open up the entire iriver for stuff, right?
23.43.46 Quit    einhirn (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23.45.47 #       <preglow> yes
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23.47.42 #       <khira> hey
23.51.08 #       <[IDC]Dragon> amiconn, dd is still working. I'll leave it overnight now
23.51.14 #       <[IDC]Dragon> c u!
23.51.25 Quit    [IDC]Dragon (" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- \o/")
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