--- Log for 24.09.105  Server: herbert.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 23 days and 17 hours ago

00.00.00 #       <Zagor> _everything_ in the GUI would need locks and state storage. we're totally free of that today.
00.00.53 #       <TiMiD[FD]> state storage ?
00.01.16 #       <TiMiD[FD]> the threads running can keep their own state
00.02.10 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I don't know a lot about the rockbox threading arch, but normally local variables are not shared between threads 
00.03.08 #       <Zagor> right, but far from everything is handled with local variables
00.03.31 #       <Zagor> take the directory buffer (browser file list) as an example
00.03.32 #       <TiMiD[FD]> so that's the problem :/
00.04.14 #       <Zagor> in limited memory systems, you cannot use mega-size stacks
00.04.36 Join    paugh [0] (n=kickback@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:8000:0:3e03:6822)
00.05.47 #       <TiMiD[FD]> would that take so much memory to duplicate such informations ?
00.06.17 #       <Zagor> yes. the dir buffer (for example) can be quite large.
00.07.40 #       <TiMiD[FD]> so if there is no way to separate the two displays, what is the problem with xavier(s patch '
00.07.58 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (I looked a little and he just duplicated the drawings)
00.07.59 #       <Zagor> if was quick and ugly.
00.08.18 #       <Zagor> the displays are not the same size, so the remote was cropped
00.08.22 #       <TiMiD[FD]> ok
00.08.28 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (I didn't test it)
00.09.16 #       <Zagor> it was fun as a test, but not the right way forward
00.09.39 #       <TiMiD[FD]> so the need here is to do some generic code to handle properly the display independantly of the size (like widgets) ?
00.10.23 #       <Zagor> yes. our code already supports varying screen size, but the size is currently compiled-in.
00.10.56 #       <rasher> Zagor: twiki edit timeout of 60 minutes is a bit much
00.11.10 #       <Zagor> rasher: agreed. i'll change it to 20.
00.11.48 #       <TiMiD[FD]> ok so for example a bunch of functions that could allow handling of a file tree not only in the tree viewer (or something like that)
00.12.00 #       <TiMiD[FD]> that would imply to rewrite a lot of code
00.12.27 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (and I'm only talking about the tree viewer, since it's the one I'm mainly interrested in)
00.12.30 #       <Zagor> TiMiD[FD]: rather I see it as modifying the file tree code to simply draw the screen twice: once on main screen and once on the remote.
00.13.25 #       <Zagor> there are some issues, of course. like the list needs to scroll at different points and so on.
00.14.04 ***     Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
00.14.21 #       <Zagor> note though that this is just my current thinking. we have not fully decided on the design of this yet.
00.18.04 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I will look more closely to the tree source code
00.18.19 #       <Zagor> the scroll issue should be pretty simple, now that I think about it. focus on dircursor and adjust dirstart if it's too far away.
00.18.57 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I'm a little bit lost in this code, I'm more used to oo programming and c sounds qite messy to me
00.19.07 #       <Zagor> :-)
00.19.32 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (no, I didn't said dirty :p)
00.21.05 #       <TiMiD[FD]> maybe implementing the file tree parsing in independant widgets would make the code cleaner
00.21.28 #       <TiMiD[FD]> and plugins would be able to use it
00.21.32 Quit    ender` (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
00.22.44 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (quite useless though since it's the tree that is launching the plugins in most cases)
00.24.41 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I was also wondering about one thing (just an idea) : would it be possible to handle the file tree like menus ?
00.24.43 #       <Zagor> tread carefully. "abstraction" is a foul word in these parts :-)
00.25.06 #       <Zagor> how do you mean like menus?
00.25.24 #       <TiMiD[FD]> don't worry, I noticed :p
00.26.16 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I mean a file tree is in presentation at least and in function (to the user) very similar to the file tree
00.26.40 #       <TiMiD[FD]> directory is like sub-menu
00.26.59 #       <TiMiD[FD]> file is like an option you enter in
00.27.34 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (well I didn't looked at the menus code too close too, but the code could be regrouped)
00.28.19 #       <Zagor> yes, but there are also a lot of differences
00.28.29 #       <TiMiD[FD]> so menus would become an abstract layer for file tree (oops I said the forbidden word :p )
00.28.35 #       <Zagor> the menus are hard-coded, the file tree is dynamically read from disk
00.28.53 #       <TiMiD[FD]> argh
00.29.00 #       <Zagor> the menu is translated, the file tree is not
00.29.21 #       <Zagor> the file list is sorted, the menus are not
00.29.47 #       <Zagor> the file list uses icons, the menu does not
00.29.50 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I read somewhere on the wiki that dynamic menus were wanted
00.30.06 #       <Zagor> wanted: yes. close: no.
00.30.12 #       <TiMiD[FD]> ok :p
00.30.46 #       <Zagor> there are people who want the whole world configurable. I want to stay a bit closer to the ground. :-)
00.30.49 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (wth I certainly don't intend to recode the entire rockbox interface :p)
00.32.07 #       <Zagor> I hope you don't feel I am just putting you down. It's a good discussion.
00.32.20 #       <TiMiD[FD]> no it's not that
00.32.35 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (I'm not fool enough to recode everything)
00.33.06 Quit    DangerousDan ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
00.33.07 #       <TiMiD[FD]> i'm too lazy
00.33.39 #       <rasher> Having the menu structure seperated of the code would possibly allow to easier adapt the ui for say icon-driven interface (I'm sure the h300 people will be screaming for this) though
00.33.45 #       <Zagor> lazy is sometimes good. it means only the really desired things get written and the fancy stuff is left out. :-)
00.33.47 #       <TiMiD[FD]> and well maybe this story will be forgotten after eight or nine beers !
00.34.20 Quit    Dan ()
00.34.38 #       <TiMiD[FD]> but this time I don't know why I'm motivated
00.34.51 #       <TiMiD[FD]> it doesn't happen a lot in a year
00.36.49 #       <TiMiD[FD]> my first idea was to make multi thread like described in the mailing list (to allow me for example to continue reading my texts while changing the tracks, like on the iriver)
00.37.14 #       <rasher> Doesn't the iriver sync the two displays 100%?
00.37.19 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (on iriver fw, it's more like an alt-tab though)
00.37.42 #       <TiMiD[FD]> when you are viewing a text, you can press for example record to return to the main screen
00.37.52 #       <rasher> ah
00.38.03 #       <TiMiD[FD]> and another record press will bring you back to the text
00.38.26 #       <TiMiD[FD]> it's quite basic, but when I'm reading my notes it's useful
00.38.50 #       <rasher> except that the text viewer is horrible
00.38.59 #       <TiMiD[FD]> yes
00.39.05 #       <rasher> The rockbox viewer auto-bookmarks by the way
00.39.16 #       <rasher> so stopping it is not much hassle
00.39.40 #       <TiMiD[FD]> it's some more keypresses ...
00.40.14 #       <rasher> can't be many
00.40.33 #       <TiMiD[FD]> but there are soe plugins that don't bookmark, for example games XD
00.40.45 #       <rasher> stop, play, [whatever you want to do], select, play
00.40.56 #       <rasher> of course
00.41.07 #       <rasher> I'm just being argumentative
00.41.32 #       <Zagor> rasher: about the displays, yes both displays show the same thing. but obviously not the exact same thing.
00.41.54 #       * rasher boots the iriver firmware
00.42.14 #       <TiMiD[FD]> (btw, I can't use the rb text viewer cause it doesn't display japanese :( )
00.42.37 #       <rasher> Ah.
00.42.48 #       * rasher eagerly awaits the unicode patch
00.43.06 #       <TiMiD[FD]> no need to say i'm impatiently waiting for unicode support :)
00.43.28 #       <Zagor> rasher: they're taking an easy way out by having 6 rows of text on the main lcd and 3 lines on the remote
00.43.52 #       <Zagor> so they just page-flip twice as often on the remote
00.43.54 #       <TiMiD[FD]> so the remote also displays text on iriver fw 
00.44.01 #       <TiMiD[FD]> never noticed this :)
00.44.05 #       <rasher> Zagor: the menu is 6/4
00.44.13 #       <Zagor> rasher: ah, ok
00.44.28 #       <Zagor> TiMiD[FD]: this was the file browser. don't think I've tried the text viewer :-)
00.44.38 #       * rasher gets out of the iriver fw as quick as possible
00.44.55 #       * TiMiD[FD] has some pbl with english :/
00.45.28 #       <Zagor> rasher: the menu is visibly very different code. it scrolls while the file browser page-flips
00.45.44 #       <Zagor> I'd like rockbox to work like the iriver menu does.
00.45.49 #       <rasher> Zagor: ah, haven't noticed
00.46.03 #       <TiMiD[FD]> uh ?
00.46.13 #       <TiMiD[FD]> wath's the problem with scrolling ?
00.46.20 #       <TiMiD[FD]> display is too slow ?
00.47.00 #       <Zagor> TiMiD[FD]: Nothing, I want to scroll. I just mentioned the iriver file browser doesn't.
00.48.25 #       <rasher> Hrm, am I missing something, or doesn't Rockbox/iriver do FM scanning?
00.48.55 #       <TiMiD[FD]> it can scan radio stations
00.49.09 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I don't remember the key though
00.49.27 #       <TiMiD[FD]> maybe short + long right
00.49.46 #       <rasher> Rockbox on iriver?
00.50.02 #       <rasher> huh!
00.50.11 #       <rasher> one of my presets just appeared in the main menu?
00.50.22 #       <TiMiD[FD]> oops
00.50.26 #       <rasher> Bizarre
00.50.30 #       <TiMiD[FD]> I was speaking of original fw :/
00.50.41 #       <rasher> also, entering/leaving the radio screen changes the volume
00.51.10 Join    bg [0] (n=chatzill@24-240-69-134.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
00.51.24 #       <bg> noticed 2.5 is out, but no iriver release yet?
00.51.35 #       <rasher> bg: No.
00.51.42 #       <rasher> 2.5 was for Archos only.
00.51.44 #       <Zagor> rasher: it's in the debug menu for good reasons :-)
00.51.47 #       <bg> gotcha
00.51.52 #       <rasher> Zagor: It isn't, though
00.52.00 #       <rasher> It's right there in the main menu!
00.52.02 #       <bg> rasher: when should we be expecting an iriver release?
00.52.28 #       <Zagor> my eyes are going downhilll...
00.52.29 #       <TiMiD[FD]> bg: no official release until irivier becomes fully supported I think
00.52.31 #       <rasher> bg: Noone knows - see http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IriverStatus for a rough overview of what needs to be done
00.52.57 #       <rasher> Zagor: does rockbox do FM scanning?
00.53.06 #       <Zagor> bg: when we can release it without getting tons of complaints about it :-)
00.53.18 #       <bg> always makes life easier
00.53.28 #       <Zagor> rasher: dunno actually. never used radio myself (my archos doesn't have it)
00.53.35 #       <rasher> Fair enough
00.53.52 #       <rasher> Just wondering if it's not there, or just not enabled on iriver
00.53.55 #       <TiMiD[FD]> you can download a daily build from sept 22, it should be the same as official 2.5
00.53.56 #       <rasher> guess I should rtfm
00.54.02 #       <bg> heres another question... noticed my iriver firmware cant tune in AM, is that a hardware limitation or a software limitation?
00.54.07 #       <Zagor> rtfc rather :)
00.54.08 #       <rasher> bg: hardware
00.54.10 Quit    paugh ("bbiab")
00.54.14 #       <rasher> Zagor: c being?
00.54.18 #       <Zagor> code
00.54.29 #       <rasher> Ah, but the manual knows about the fm screen
00.54.37 #       <Zagor> true
00.55.22 #       <rasher> "Change frequency in 0.1 MHz steps. For automatic station seek, hold LEFT/RIGHT for a little longer."
00.55.23 #       <bg> ill be fine waiting for irivers official release... the original firmware doesnt bother me too much, just a few nagging problems that i can live with for the time being
00.55.31 #       <rasher> Ah, so it does
00.55.36 #       <rasher> guess I wasn't holding it long enough
00.56.13 #       <bg> anyway, time to go do the drugs.  you guys have a good night.
00.56.16 Quit    bg ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050921]")
00.57.49 #       <TiMiD[FD]> time to sleep for me
00.57.56 #       <TiMiD[FD]> good night guys !
00.57.58 #       <Zagor> good night
00.58.59 #       <rasher> Hm, archos users should chip in on http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/FmPresets
00.59.42 Join    bagawk [0] (n=lee@unaffiliated/bagawk)
01.04.32 #       <linuxstb> rasher: You're right about entering/leaving the FM screen changing the volume.  But I think it only happens when your sound settings (bass, treble etc) are not zero.
01.05.01 #       <fuzzie> linuxstb: were you the person with the modified faad2? if so, could you put it up somewhere?
01.05.04 #       <linuxstb> Someone mentioned it a couple of weeks ago - amiconn had a quick look at the problem, but didn't fix it.
01.05.08 #       <rasher> linuxstb: yes indeed
01.05.32 #       <rasher> rasher: I was going to tell you you were wrong, but found that I had in fact changed the bass setting
01.05.41 #       <rasher> Usually use flat settings
01.06.46 #       <linuxstb> fuzzie: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/libfaad-rockbox.tgz
01.07.15 #       <linuxstb> You will need to uncompress it in the apps/codecs directory, and then modify the apps/codecs/Makefile and tools/configure scripts to add libfaad to the build
01.07.32 #       <fuzzie> thanks :)
01.07.56 #       <linuxstb> All I've done is to get it to compile - please double-check my changes.  It is the CVS version of libfaad from (I think) 30 Jan 2005.
01.08.17 #       <linuxstb> (I'm looking for my unmodified copy now...)
01.11.44 #       <linuxstb> fuzzie: This is the original file I used: http://www.davechapman.f2s.com/rockbox/faad2-2005-01-30.rar
01.12.13 #       <linuxstb> It should be the final GPL'd version of faad2.
01.12.22 #       <linuxstb> (before they broke the license)
01.12.46 #       <fuzzie> heh, thanks a lot
01.13.41 #       <linuxstb> Are you planning to take it further?
01.14.31 #       <fuzzie> i am, if i can .. i have no experience with rockbox development, but i've built the simulator, poked at the source a bit, and am intending to buy an H120 for it
01.14.56 #       <Zagor> random thought: On color displays, we probably will want to ignore the first button pressed when the backlight is off, since the user has no way of knowing where he is and which button is "safe".
01.20.10 Join    paugh [0] (n=kickback@2001:5c0:8fff:ffff:8000:0:3e03:6822)
01.26.44 #       <linuxstb> Speaking of color displays, has anyone given any thought to the lcd_framebuffer structure needed for the H300, or are we waiting until we know more about the LCD?
01.28.20 #       <Zagor> I have been thinking 1 byte/pixel, for simplicity, performance and memory conservation. However some displays will want more depth for best image quality (for jpgs and video etc)
01.29.41 #       <Zagor> perhaps a model with different video modes: 1byte/px for normal screens and 4byte/px for image viewing
01.30.09 #       <Zagor> otoh we'll probably want album covers in the wps....
01.30.36 #       <Zagor> I'm just worried scrolling will be terribly slow with 4 bytes per pixel
01.30.48 #       <Zagor> (or require a cpu boost!)
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01.36.47 #       <linuxstb> I've got no strong views on it - I just asked because I'm looking to see what needs to be done to get the H300 X11 sim to compile.
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01.37.09 #       <bagawk> Zagor, I think you are underestimating the speed :)
01.37.29 #       <webguest00> evening - has the patch to fix the auto power off bug been applied yet?
01.37.40 #       <bagawk> Zagor, I have 16mhz 68k mac that can do scrolling in color well
01.38.04 #       <Zagor> bagawk: without help? (i.e. hardware)
01.38.16 #       <bagawk> ahh...
01.38.19 #       <bagawk> No idea then
01.38.28 #       <bagawk> But I still think it could od it speedy
01.39.08 #       <rasher> I guess the middle of the night is not the best time to get a list of FM stations available here
01.39.27 #       <rasher> I can get the same 3 stations at 9 different frequencies, roughly
01.39.42 #       <Zagor> bagawk: there's no doubt it would be possible, but we also want to keep the idle frequence down as far as possible. so performance is still an issue.
01.40.19 #       <rasher> Speaking of idle frequency - why are we not running the radio screen at 11MHz?
01.40.51 #       <Zagor> no idea
01.41.02 #       <Zagor> is it running at full tilt?
01.41.06 #       <rasher> I have that in my builds, with absolutely no ill effects
01.41.08 #       <rasher> 48MHz
01.41.11 #       <Zagor> ok
01.41.40 #       <rasher> I don't know how much would be saved. IIRC, 48->11mhz is not much difference
01.41.42 #       <rasher> Power-wise
01.42.08 #       <Zagor> I don't remember the numbers either.
01.42.15 #       <rasher> Oh, hm.. 58->39mA
01.42.20 #       <rasher> that's.. somethiing
01.45.40 Part    webguest00
01.47.57 #       <linuxstb> I would like to add an option to Sudoku to allow the user to keep the backlight on permanently.  Is there an easy way to implement that?
01.48.56 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> How much power drain does the backlight add anyway?
01.48.57 #       <rasher> don't know about the option, but keeping the backlight on permanently is pretty easy
01.49.56 #       <rasher> linuxstb: apps/plugins/grayscale.c does it
01.50.02 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I was just thinking, with most of the games I keep wishing the screen wouldn't fade while I think about a next move.
01.51.14 #       <linuxstb> rasher: Thanks.
01.53.00 #       * rasher looks at ipodport
01.53.25 #       <rasher> why, that's almost a small devicechart you have there
01.53.31 #       <rasher> DeviceChart, that is
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01.54.32 #       <fogcat> Anyone here know about how the wiki works?
01.54.35 #       <Moos> good night @ all
01.54.52 #       <fogcat> I'm trying to reset my Wiki password and get " Administration error"
01.54.52 Quit    Moos ("Glory to Rockbox")
01.55.10 #       <Zagor> fogcat: I'll take a look
01.55.23 #       <fogcat> Zagor: ta
01.55.48 Quit    paugh ("Leaving")
01.57.25 #       <rasher> Hm, maybe ipodlinux' wiki should be added to TWiki.InterWikis
01.57.36 #       <rasher> I'm guessing linuxstb might want to link to it a lot
01.57.42 #       <Zagor> rasher: good idea
01.57.51 #       <rasher> (I can
01.57.54 #       <rasher> 't edit the page)
01.59.05 #       <Zagor> i'll fix it
01.59.27 #       <rasher> Adding the FAQ link to the top bar seems like a good idea
02.02.08 #       <Zagor> yeah I played around a bit with the looks and links
02.03.41 #       <rasher> Hm, maybe the tables should follow the style used on the non-wiki pages? Maybe with a bit more contrast, so joined cells are more obvious
02.04.07 #       <Zagor> fogcat: looks like I need to update the ResetPassword page for the new twiki version. hang on.
02.04.13 #       <rasher> To me the tables stick out as being somewhat out of place
02.04.22 #       <rasher> Anyway, I'm just being nitpicky
02.04.50 #       <Zagor> yes, the tables are also very ugly :-)
02.05.57 #       <rasher> I understand amiconn's complaint the other day that you couldn't tell that cells were joined with the look just after you upgraded
02.06.06 #       <rasher> (no vertical devider)
02.06.20 #       <Zagor> yes
02.08.58 #       <rasher> I like the edits to the top/bottom bars
02.09.28 #       <rasher> It's very close to the cvs activity/daily builds tables
02.09.52 #       <Zagor> yeah, that was the idea
02.11.01 #       <rasher> Excellent, the interwiki thing works like a charm
02.11.32 #       <fogcat> Zagor: OK - thanks - I'll do it tomorrow now.
02.11.52 Part    fogcat
02.11.58 #       <Zagor> aww, just got it working :-)
02.13.07 #       * rasher nitpicks the ipodport page
02.13.53 #       <rasher> Does the new twiki merge edits in some strange ways?
02.14.07 ***     Saving seen data "./dancer.seen"
02.14.16 #       <rasher> I just edited, unlocked and edited IpodPort and it's still at r1.2
02.15.26 #       <Zagor> I don't know
02.16.21 #       <rasher> maybe I'm just going insane
02.17.06 #       <rasher> No, still at 1.2 after another edit.
02.17.12 #       <rasher> This can't be a coincidence
02.18.31 #       <rasher> I wonder if itunes for windows will encode alac
02.18.35 Quit    dpassen1 ()
02.18.41 #       <Zagor> are your edits visible in the diff?
02.18.46 #       <rasher> yup
02.19.09 #       <rasher> seems like it's just merging consecutive edits by the same person (and maybe within some time window)
02.19.46 #       <fuzzie> sounds nice, i hate spamming wiki histories with a bunch of consecutive edits
02.20.00 #       <rasher> Yeah, it's a good idea
02.20.17 #       <rasher> Just had me confused for a while because I wasn't expecting it
02.20.39 #       <Zagor> I'm not so sure. The versioning is done by rcs externally, and you can't make rcs shoehorn new changes in an old rev.
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02.28.03 #       <Zagor> i'm off to bed. night all.
02.28.36 #       <rasher> night
02.55.07 Quit    bagawk ("Leaving")
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03.08.34 #       <rasher> linuxstb: codec failure with alac files ripped using itune
03.08.37 #       <rasher> linuxstb: codec failure with alac files ripped using itunes
03.09.32 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> O_O
03.10.26 #       <rasher> Itunes 5.01/Win32 specifically, if that matters
03.11.14 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> How do ALAC file sizes compare to .WV of FLAC?
03.11.38 #       <rasher> Somewhere inbetween FLAC at best setting and FLAC at normal setting I think
03.11.56 #       <rasher> isn't sizes of lossless codecs pretty much the same?
03.12.05 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah, pretty darn close
03.12.26 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> But when the files are 15-20mb anyway, "close" can still be 1mb.
03.12.42 #       <rasher> But that's still not much
03.12.44 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
03.12.55 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I was just curious
03.13.00 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I'd read somewhere it decodes faster.
03.13.45 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> And that worried me.
03.13.50 #       <rasher> I don't think so
03.14.00 #       <rasher> It's slightly more complicated than FLAC, it seems
03.14.11 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Aaah
03.14.16 #       <rasher> It all comes down to optimizations
03.14.29 #       <rasher> The algorithm isn't faster
03.15.15 #       <rasher> (according to the author of the ALAC decoder and a FLAC developer)
03.18.55 #       <rasher> The commandline decoder fails as well
03.21.26 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Odd
03.21.52 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> So, it's an iTunes issues?
03.21.52 #       <rasher> $ alac -f o.wav 01\ -\ Beneath\ Another\ Sky.m4a
03.21.53 #       <rasher> (trak) unknown chunk id: edts
03.21.53 #       <rasher> (moov) unknown chunk id: elst
03.21.53 DBUG    Enqueued KICK rasher
03.21.53 #       <rasher> (top) unknown chunk id: 

03.21.53 #       <rasher> failed to load the QuickTime movie headers
03.22.27 #       <rasher> Why do you think that?
03.23.00 #       <fuzzie> rasher: get the file to me somehow?
03.23.04 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Well, you said you encoded it with itunes, but two different decoders fail?
03.23.13 #       <rasher> Paul_The_Nerd: it's the same decoder
03.23.16 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Oh
03.23.23 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Nevermind
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05.43.36 #       <fuzzie> don't suppose anyone except rasher is around?
06.05.36 #       <fuzzie> anyway, I got libfaad2 integrated into my tree, fixed it a bit more and wrote the skeleton of a codec
06.06.17 #       <fuzzie> i sort of need more metadata than the ALAC parser provides, it seems like it'd be a good idea to just integrate the faad2 mpeg4-file-parsing code
06.06.31 #       <fuzzie> given it doesn't have FIXME all over the place. but i guess i'll poke people about this tomorrow.
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09.04.03 #       <rasher> Nice, more missing attachments coming in
09.15.46 #       <amiconn> Morning rasher
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09.23.05 #       <rasher_> great
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09.24.19 #       <rasher> I had all these questions and they never went anywhere.
09.24.28 #       <rasher> Worked out most anyway.
09.24.51 #       <rasher> However, 32 fm presets is not enough for everyone, it seems.. is this an important limit?
09.25.01 #       <rasher> or just chosen because "it should be enouogh"
09.25.14 #       <rasher> oh and, morning amiconn 
09.25.33 #       <amiconn> I think it was chosen because it should be enough *almost* everywhere,
09.25.50 #       <rasher> Not enough for Paris apparently
09.25.58 #       <amiconn> and it's a bit more than the archos fmr/ Ondio FM firmware allows (30)
09.26.18 #       <rasher> Meanwhile, I struggle to find 5 channels with decent reception
09.26.52 #       <amiconn> I don't know about how the iriver firmware handles it. Iriver is so unintuitive I didn't even find out myself how to enter radio mode...
09.27.15 #       <rasher> I did manage to go to radio mode, but I never really figured out presets
09.27.20 #       <rasher> (hold down play)
09.27.46 #       <amiconn> Yes, radio reception on H1x0 is significantly worse than on (new) Ondio FM, although they use the very same tuner chip
09.28.08 #       <rasher> With the same headphones?
09.28.12 #       <amiconn> yep
09.28.20 #       <rasher> Now isn't that curious
09.28.41 #       <rasher> Oh well, I don't listen to much radio.
09.30.12 #       <ashridah> i don't think the iriver's calibrated properly myself.
09.30.22 #       <ashridah> is it possible to get finer tuning than .05? 
09.30.31 #       <ashridah> or is that a limitation of the chip?
09.31.55 #       <amiconn> Rockbox tunes in 0.1 steps
09.32.39 #       <amiconn> I dunno about other countries, but it seems that no terrestrial stations use xxx.x5 frequencies
09.33.01 #       <amiconn> Cable is a different thing though, but our devices don't have an antenna socket...
09.33.10 #       <ashridah> iriver's firmware seems to think so
09.33.16 #       <rasher> well reception can be odd though
09.33.21 #       <ashridah> it just seems like the S/N ratio is way too high for it to be tuned properly
09.33.36 #       <rasher> sometimes it's better, off the right frequency
09.34.05 #       <ashridah> way too low
09.34.05 #       <ashridah> sorry, not high
09.35.36 #       <amiconn> Well, it's a pll synthesizer tuner, so tuning should always be exact (within the quartz precision)
09.42.22 #       <ashridah> then something must be off
09.42.28 #       <ashridah> or the antenna sucks balls
09.42.35 #       <ashridah> i can't get any channel without static
09.42.55 #       <amiconn> Did you compare with iriver firmware?
09.44.15 #       <amiconn> I just checked the datasheet, the minimum tuning step size depends on the quartz used
09.44.42 #       <ashridah> amiconn: both have the same problem
09.44.48 #       <rasher> Zagor: the EZWPS page has something broken with attachments
09.45.58 #       <amiconn> With a 13 MHz xtal, minimum tuning step size is (exactly) 0.05 MHz (50 kHz)
09.46.06 #       <amiconn> That's what the Ondio FM uses
09.47.02 #       <amiconn> The H1x0 uses a 32.768 kHz xtal, which allows a minimum tuning step size of 32.768 kHz (0.032768 MHz)
09.48.31 #       <amiconn> That means, the iriver can't be tuned exactly to most xxx.x0 or xxx.x5 positions; it's almost always off a bit
09.51.30 #       <ashridah> so there's no way to get better
09.51.50 #       <ashridah> or could one in theory replace the crystal
09.52.38 #       <amiconn> ...and our routine always rounds down, so it might be more off than necessary...
09.52.47 #       <amiconn> Something to fix...
09.53.20 #       <rasher> Why would anyone use that instead of what the ondio uses?
09.53.30 #       <ashridah> rasher: probably cheaper?
09.53.58 #       <amiconn> 32.768 kHz xtals are quite cheap, as that's what praktically all quartz watches use
09.54.25 #       <amiconn> ...and the oscillator needs slightly less power because of the lower frequency
09.54.32 #       <rasher> Aha.
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09.57.21 Ctcp    Ignored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
09.57.21 #       * rasher looks at Tang's wpsgallery backup
09.57.34 #       <rasher> it appears to be exactly what we found in MSN search's cache
09.57.51 #       <rasher> of course, his copy has the images, but those are just screenshots :-\
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10.17.03 #       <Pieter_> hello
10.17.14 #       <Pieter_> there's no more USB power mode in rockbox 2.5?
10.18.21 #       <rasher> there should be
10.18.28 #       <rasher> http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/ChangeLog25#Using_USB_Power
10.19.15 #       <Pieter_> yes i kno
10.19.18 #       <Pieter_> i wrote it
10.19.25 #       <Pieter_> it just doesn't work
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10.19.57 #       <rasher> Surprising
10.20.07 #       <rasher> Well, I don't know what happened there
10.20.17 #       <Pieter_> no.. i'll check the source :P
10.20.34 #       <rasher> You do that
10.20.43 #       <amiconn> Pieter_: FMR or Ondio?
10.20.45 #       <rasher> Wow, another student.utwente
10.20.51 #       <Pieter_> amiconn: ondio
10.21.02 #       <amiconn> Hmm, strange. Maybe I should try 2.5
10.21.41 #       <amiconn> So you were the one who started USB power mode...
10.21.59 #       <amiconn> I've improved upon that (at least I think it's an improvement)
10.22.19 #       <rasher> linuxstb_: are you around?
10.23.01 #       <Pieter_> yes, i was.. it should be an improvement, but i can't get it to work...
10.23.07 #       <Pieter_> seems to be there still
10.24.27 #       <Pieter_> perhaps the line if(button_status() == USBPOWER_BUTTON) should use & instead of ==, but that shouldn't be the problem :P
10.24.33 #       <amiconn> Works for me in 2.5
10.24.37 #       <amiconn> (Ondio FM)
10.25.48 #       <Pieter_> strange
10.25.54 #       <Pieter_> i have the same thing.. let's try again
10.26.21 #       <Pieter_> it says 'please remove inserted MMC'
10.29.18 #       <Pieter_> i'll try installing manually instead of with the installer, it seems to have done something wrong with the plugins as well
10.31.04 #       <amiconn> I used the zip file...
10.31.22 #       <amiconn> I suspect there's something wrong with the 2.5 windows installer
10.31.31 #       <amiconn> Many people had problems using that
10.35.44 #       <Pieter_> well all the plugins would say incompatible version
10.36.57 #       <Pieter_> but i'm extracting the zip file
10.37.00 #       <Pieter_> takes a while
10.38.27 #       <Pieter_> eh, this one's even better
10.38.30 #       <Pieter_> doesn't boot
10.38.39 #       <Pieter_> hangs at the rockbox logo
10.42.01 #       <Pieter_> (oh wait, that was the wrong version.. i seem to be not completely awake yet :P)
10.46.37 #       <Pieter_> ok, must have been the installer
10.46.45 #       <Pieter_> because just manually installing it works fine
10.50.20 #       <amiconn> The installer is indeed wrong... It installs a build from 2005-06-07, whatever that is
10.50.24 #       <amiconn> Zagor?
10.51.32 #       <rasher> Whoa
10.51.39 #       <rasher> That's crazy wrong
10.51.59 #       <rasher> 2.6.1 time?
10.52.06 #       <rasher> eh
10.52.08 #       <rasher> 2.5.1
10.53.49 #       <rasher> Anyone with strong opinions on iriver radio button-assignment?
10.54.14 #       <rasher> I'm in agreement with this post: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1512.msg9325#msg9325
10.54.31 #       <amiconn> I'm not
10.54.43 #       <rasher> what's wrong with it?
10.54.50 #       <amiconn> You can't call the main menu from the radio screen, there
10.55.11 #       <rasher> Huh
10.55.14 #       <amiconn> s/there/it would allow to produce a loop/
10.55.21 #       <rasher> Ah
10.55.32 #       <amiconn> main menu->radio->main menu->radio->...
10.55.36 #       <rasher> I think he just means "leave with radio playing"
10.55.43 #       <rasher> just like is possible now
10.55.44 #       <amiconn> Furthermore, it isn't necessarily logical
10.56.03 #       <amiconn> AB is "menu", not necessarily "main menu"
10.56.41 #       <rasher> yeah, I'm with you on that
10.56.52 #       <rasher> maybe select should leave
10.56.54 #       <rasher> like it does the wps
10.59.18 #       <rasher> SELECT - Leave with radio on
10.59.18 #       <rasher> STOP - Leave with radio off
10.59.18 #       <rasher> A-B - Presets
10.59.18 DBUG    Enqueued KICK rasher
10.59.18 #       <rasher> Long SELECT - Context menu
10.59.34 #       <rasher> and I guess the mute thing on play is sortof logical if you're looking for pause
10.59.59 #       <amiconn> I don't see the need for mute at all
11.00.11 #       <amiconn> Just stop the radio, re-enter to continue
11.00.18 #       <amiconn> Same amount of keypresses
11.00.53 #       <rasher> True, can't hurt though - it's a decent analogue to the wps
11.01.14 #       <rasher> Unless we end up lacking keys, in which case it's totally expendable
11.01.22 #       <amiconn> Plus, it may rise other issues when mute is added
11.01.42 #       <amiconn> Like, what happens if a radio recording is running and you mute?
11.02.02 #       <rasher> You get eaten by a grue.
11.02.02 #       <amiconn> Hmm, that seems to be a situation where mute might actually be useful...
11.02.21 #       <rasher> anyway, I was intentionally leaving that out from my list
11.02.36 #       <Pieter_> 2.5 starts even faster? :)
11.03.06 #       <amiconn> rasher: In fact your list makes sense to me, plus PLAY = mute
11.03.29 #       <amiconn> Mute should only silence the output of course, leaving the radio (and an eventual recording) running
11.03.40 #       <rasher> Yeah
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11.03.58 #       <rasher> so what happens when you leave and mute is on?
11.04.06 #       <amiconn> It should unmute
11.04.16 #       <rasher> also if you leave with radio on?
11.04.37 #       <amiconn> Thou shalt not do that! ;)
11.05.18 #       <rasher> Well, it probably should just stay muted and from there on it's now the user's problem
11.05.21 #       <amiconn> I think leaving with mute & radio on should act like leaving with the radio off
11.05.38 #       <rasher> good idea
11.05.40 #       <amiconn> We have no mute for file playback, and that's for a reason
11.05.56 #       <amiconn> It makes no sense, pause is always better
11.06.09 #       <rasher> Yeah
11.06.41 #       <amiconn> Better tuning for H1x0 committed
11.07.04 #       <rasher> Nice
11.07.55 #       <amiconn> Btw, the tunning error was smaller than I though, because the frequency is divided by 4. Anyway, now the maximum roundoff error is half of what it was before
11.08.13 #       <amiconn> (but can be positive or negative, used to be always negative before)
11.08.28 #       <rasher> Ah, so shouldn't be much noticable?
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11.10.05 #       <rasher> I'm not quite sure if the context menu is the one that offers the "ADD" entry, or the presets
11.10.19 Part    hshah ("Leaving")
11.10.46 #       <rasher> Nah, it is the one with add in it
11.13.31 #       <amiconn> Hmm, your list is logical, but not necessarily convenient.
11.14.10 #       <rasher> I'm all ears
11.14.18 #       <amiconn> Presets on Select might be better
11.14.27 #       <rasher> for easier access?
11.14.30 #       <amiconn> yup
11.14.57 #       <rasher> I had that Idea, but decided against it to let logic win over laziness
11.15.06 #       <amiconn> And, it would combine the radio actions. Short SELECT = presets, long SELECT = context menu
11.15.55 #       <amiconn> Btw, the volume error with non-flat tone controls happens when first entering the radio screen
11.16.59 #       <rasher> I'm torn on this button thing
11.17.24 #       <rasher> But then.. it'd be a-b to leave, which goes to menu
11.17.30 #       <rasher> so it's not that illogical
11.18.39 #       <rasher> Hrm, am I now back to the suggestion in that forum
11.18.54 #       <rasher> haha yes
11.18.55 #       <rasher> yes I am
11.19.30 #       <amiconn> Hmm, indeed
11.20.00 #       <amiconn> Maybe I just misinterpreted the "AB go to main menu" thing as actually calling the menu
11.20.07 #       <rasher> ah
11.20.20 #       <amiconn> If this would be "leave with radio on", it seems okay
11.20.37 #       <rasher> I don't see the point in wanting anything else
11.20.49 #       <rasher> it's not like there's any state to be saved that isn't saved if leaving with radio on
11.21.52 #       <amiconn> Leaving the radio screen always stops an eventual recording, so mute makes sense
11.22.02 #       <rasher> Ah
11.28.01 #       <rasher> Whee, I think we have another case of 0 == undefined according to preprocessors
11.28.03 #       <rasher> hang on
11.28.55 #       <rasher> no
11.28.56 #       <rasher> oh well
11.29.10 #       <rasher> guess I just screwed up then
11.29.12 #       <amiconn> I found the place that causes the radio volume error.
11.29.28 #       <amiconn> Fixing it needs some rework of uda1380.c
11.30.45 #       <amiconn> Perhaps not...
11.31.21 Ctcp    Ignored 1 channel CTCP requests in 0 seconds at the last flood
11.31.21 #       * amiconn looks up the uda1380 datasheet
11.40.27 #       <rasher> I'm confused
11.40.41 #       <rasher> my button changes don't seem to be reflecing what's actually happening
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11.43.08 #       <amiconn> Radio volume issue fixed.
11.43.40 #       <rasher> well that was fast
11.43.51 #       <rasher> meanwhile, I haven't figured out how to change the buttons
11.45.01 #       <rasher> I give up.
11.45.18 #       <rasher> This doesn't make sense
11.45.45 #       <amiconn> Should be simple (except mute, as that doesn't exists yet)
11.46.06 #       <rasher> It should, but I'm messing it up
11.46.08 #       <amiconn> Only one pitfall - you'll need to introduce FM_PRESET_PRE
11.46.57 #       <rasher> I can't even manage to make a-b exit
11.47.28 #       <amiconn> #define FM_EXIT BUTTON_MODE
11.47.29 #       <rasher> which is confusing me
11.47.40 #       <amiconn> (and remove #define FM_EXIT_PRE)
11.48.02 #       <rasher> I thought I tried that
11.48.18 #       <amiconn> This does of course require to change FM_MENU as well, as otherwise there would be 2 identical case: values
11.48.43 #       <amiconn> #define FM_MENU (BUTTON_SELECT | BUTTON_REPEAT)
11.49.14 #       <rasher> oh jesus christ
11.49.24 #       <amiconn> ?
11.49.28 #       <rasher> Well I forgot that
11.51.14 #       <rasher> Think I'll try again, and actually think this time
11.52.05 #       <rasher> #define FM_PRESET_PRE BUTTON_SELECT
11.52.10 #       <rasher> #define FM_PRESET (BUTTON_SELECT | BUTTON_REL)
11.52.11 #       <rasher> look fine?
11.52.55 #       <amiconn> yup
11.53.08 #       <rasher> and then add the check
11.53.19 #       <amiconn> Of course that requires to add a piece of code to case FM_PRESET:
11.54.00 #       <amiconn> (#ifdefed properly)
11.55.36 #       <Zagor> amiconn: would you say Vaga Bund is a real german name?
11.55.37 #       <rasher> Think I have it now
11.56.14 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Not really
11.56.29 #       <Zagor> that's what I felt too
11.56.30 #       <rasher> Dammit, no!
11.56.41 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Btw, could you check what went wrong with building the 2.5 installer?
11.56.53 #       <amiconn> It contains binaries from 2005-06-07 ...
11.57.19 #       <Zagor> yikes
11.57.33 #       <rasher> recorder/radio.c:843: error: duplicate case value
11.57.33 #       <rasher> recorder/radio.c:820: error: previously used here
11.57.43 #       <amiconn> Zagor: "Vagabund" in german is vagabond in english
11.58.30 #       <rasher> Is it using MENU_ defines from elsewhere to confuse my poor brane?
11.58.40 #       <amiconn> Seems so...
11.58.55 #       <rasher> And what does that case even do?
11.58.59 #       <amiconn> This callback function looks messy...
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12.01.32 #       <rasher> I think I'll leave this in more competent hands
12.01.54 #       <rasher> I could give you a patch of what I have now, but it's not really worth it
12.02.11 #       <rasher> it's either been written by you or pasted by me, so
12.10.45 Quit    webguest47 ("CGI:IRC")
12.13.04 #       <linuxstb_> Morning all.  So there are problems with iTunes 5 and ALAC?
12.13.18 #       <rasher> Yeah, probably minor
12.13.47 #       <rasher> fuzzie wants to use the metadata parser from faad
12.14.01 #       <linuxstb_> As long as it is small and efficient.
12.14.01 #       <rasher> and use that for alac as well
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12.14.27 #       <linuxstb_> I don't have a problem with that.  We will have a problem with two codecs using the .m4a extension though.
12.14.39 #       <rasher> certainly
12.15.22 #       <rasher> I guess using .aac can be used until that's put in place?
12.15.54 #       <linuxstb_> Or changing ALAC to  .alac - considering AAC will be by far the most used of the two.
12.15.59 #       <rasher> True
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12.16.18 #       <linuxstb_> But we should probably try and fix it properly instead.
12.16.24 #       <rasher> Of course
12.16.34 #       <rasher> I just meant so as to not halt work
12.17.25 #       <rasher> I dropped by the channel the alac author mentions on his webpage and mentioned the itunes5 thing
12.17.29 #       <rasher> don't think he's there though
12.18.01 Quit    einhirn ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
12.18.10 #       <linuxstb_> fuzzie could just disable the ALAC decoder for his testing - i.e. map .m4a to AFMT_AAC
12.21.49 #       <rasher> amiconn: if anything, reception seems worse now?
12.23.35 #       <rasher> frankly, I'm underwhelmed by the iriver's reception
12.23.35 #       <amiconn> It shouldn't
12.23.44 #       <rasher> I agree
12.23.56 #       <rasher> Might just be coincidence
12.23.58 #       <amiconn> Should be the same, or slightly better, depending on the station
12.24.15 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Any special reason why you removed the "Index" link from the wiki?
12.24.39 Join    Tom101 [0] (n=t@host81-156-203-114.range81-156.btcentralplus.com)
12.26.45 #       <rasher> Ah, charging creates worse reception
12.27.35 #       <Zagor> amiconn: i didn't feel it was very useful. do you use it regularly?
12.28.06 #       <Zagor> I reasoned that most people will probably rather search than see the monster index
12.30.02 #       <rasher> That's what I told him, but he wouldn't listen!
12.30.43 Quit    Tom101 ()
12.30.52 #       <amiconn> Zagor: I used it quite often. Guess I have to resort to the search function...
12.31.22 #       <Zagor> amiconn: or simply type WebIndex in the Go to box
12.33.16 #       <amiconn> rasher: Why is there a  ReleaseNotes-25.txt attached to the ThingsTodo topic?
12.33.53 #       <Zagor> it was a test, can be safely removed
12.34.21 #       <rasher> forgot about that
12.35.45 #       * rasher adds very unhelpful fm presets
12.46.15 #       <amiconn> linuxstb_: For your ipod port, I think we shouldn't detect everything at runtime, but only some things
12.46.31 #       <rasher> variations within single generations?
12.46.44 #       <rasher> so we at most get a version for each gen
12.47.11 #       <amiconn> I think it would make sense to have different builds per main type (plain ipod, mini, color/photo, and nano)
12.47.27 #       <amiconn> The generations should be detected at runtime, imho
12.47.35 #       <rasher> eurgh runtime display adaption :-\
12.47.55 #       <rasher> don't the newer greyscale have different displays than the old ones?
12.47.57 #       <amiconn> Same way as we do for archos player (old vs. new lcd), Ondio FM (samsung vs. philips tuner)
12.48.15 #       <rasher> But different sizes, I mean? (I could be wrong)
12.48.20 #       <amiconn> Nopes
12.48.27 #       <rasher> ah, that's good
12.48.34 #       <amiconn> http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/IpodPort
12.49.02 #       <rasher> it's not like I'll let facts get in the way
12.49.17 #       <rasher> But yeah, sounds sane then
12.49.25 #       <amiconn> There are a few more places where we adapt to hardware revisions at runtime on archos
12.49.38 #       <rasher> Different keypads though
12.49.41 #       <rasher> might not be fun
12.50.05 #       <amiconn> Okay, if the unit is physically different, then a different build makes sense
12.50.26 #       <rasher> might have to split "plain ipod" in 1-3gen to 4gen
12.51.18 #       <rasher> actually, 3rd gen is quite different from 2nd
12.51.28 #       <rasher> and 4th
12.51.30 #       <rasher> it seems
12.51.38 #       <rasher> from looking at the pictures
12.52.46 #       <amiconn> My point is that it's not user friendly if there are different versions for hardware that looks the same to the user
12.53.10 #       <amiconn> If the user is able to tell the difference, different builds are no problem
12.53.47 #       <rasher> Each gen is physically different I believe
12.54.46 Quit    Vladoman_ (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
12.58.42 #       <amiconn> From the images on ipodlinux, it seems that 1G/2G look the same, and 3G/4G too
12.59.12 #       <rasher> 4g doesn't have the 4 buttons under the display
12.59.59 #       <rasher> 1g/2g is right though
13.00.03 #       <rasher> hadn't checked that
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13.04.01 #       <rasher> so 1g/2g, 3g, 4g, mini, color/photo and nano?
13.06.03 #       <linuxstb_> amiconn: I agree about the ipod - my plan at the moment is to split the targets by LCD and keypad.
13.06.54 #       <rasher> won't that end up like I put it?
13.07.20 #       <rasher> with perhaps 1g/2g and 4g merging, depending on how the controls work
13.11.56 #       <rasher> amiconn: Seen this: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=1526.new ?
13.13.49 #       <amiconn> It seems this is related to an older rockbox (only hint is "the 2.4 software" in the middle of the text)
13.14.45 #       <rasher> Ah, missed that
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13.24.40 #       <rasher> linuxstb_: you around?
13.25.01 #       <rasher> Oh wait..
13.25.16 #       <rasher> Who was building rockbox for iriver with gcc4?
13.25.33 #       <linuxstb_> rasher: Yes.
13.25.45 #       <rasher> well, I misremembered
13.25.50 #       <amiconn> preglow (iirc)
13.25.58 #       <rasher> http://lists.debian.org/debian-gcc/2005/09/msg00262.html might be interesting
13.26.06 #       <rasher> I believe it ICEd out?
13.26.30 #       <amiconn> Iirc the binary crashed on iriver...
13.26.42 #       <rasher> linuxstb_: I just saw "gcc" "m68k" and "ice" and thought of you because of the deal with faad
13.26.48 #       <rasher> wrong connection though
13.26.57 #       <linuxstb_> np
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13.40.58 #       <linuxstb> I've just committed a patch which fixes the metadata reading for iTunes 5 files - so ALAC is working fine again.
13.41.15 #       <rasher> great
13.41.22 #       <linuxstb> I'll have a look at the "crashing on AAC files" problem reported in the Forum.
13.41.35 #       <linuxstb> I think I know an easy fix.
13.42.28 #       <Zagor>  /* FIXME not 8 */  ? :-)
13.45.13 #       <amiconn> Zagor: Any news concerning the installer problem?
13.45.29 #       <Zagor> haven't had time to look yet. removed the 2.5.exe from download though
13.45.43 #       <amiconn> Ahem, just noticed the daily installers aren't built since 2005-09-17
13.48.48 #       <linuxstb> Zagor: That's taken from the alac decoder itself.  I think Quicktime files can be either 32-bit or 64-bit, and the alac decoder is hard-coded to only deal with the 32-bit case.
13.48.59 #       <Zagor> ok
13.49.21 #       <linuxstb> I think there's a plan to use the faad m4a parser - which should be more reliable and deal with more cases.
13.51.18 #       <amiconn> Zagor: I think the wiki deletion also removed something necessary for building the installer, and so both the daily installers aren't built and the 2.5 installer build failed
13.51.31 #       <Zagor> amiconn: seems like it, yes
13.51.48 #       <amiconn> As you alreaedy prepared a 2.5 release in June, maybe you already made an installer
13.52.07 #       <amiconn> Since the real 2.5 build failed, you put up the old one (w/o checking the file date...)
13.52.38 #       <amiconn> I could build a 2.5 installer locally, from the 2.5 release .zip s
13.53.13 #       <Zagor> that sounds like a plausible theory
13.53.27 #       <Zagor> sure. but I still need to fix the builder.
13.56.57 #       <linuxstb> OK, I've hopefully stopped the ALAC decoder crashing on AAC files as well.
14.00.23 #       <rasher> that looks nice
14.00.35 #       <rasher> and like boring work
14.00.48 #       <rasher> stepping back from where errors happen
14.03.17 #       <linuxstb> It should be done everywhere in demux.c - but I'm hoping we will replace that code with the faad parser.
14.04.36 #       <rasher> "adding bass just squashes out alot of the other mid and top values it seems" just shows how much people imagine things
14.04.47 #       <rasher> (when at 100% volume)
14.07.01 #       <rasher> Holy crap, that's a lot of fm presets
14.12.53 #       <rasher> Oh dear, I forgot about the yield thing
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14.18.45 #       <linuxstb> Yes, I think yield() needs to be called from inside libalac itself.
14.20.05 #       <linuxstb> I think the only way I can do that is to pass a pointer to the rb->yield() function to the decode_frame() function.
14.21.23 #       <rasher> fun
14.24.49 #       <rasher> hrm
14.24.59 #       <amiconn> Zagor: http://amiconn.dyndns.org/rockbox-2.5-install.exe
14.27.34 #       <rasher> alac is indeed fixed
14.33.21 #       <linuxstb> Yes - adding more yields from inside libalac has done the job.  The UI during ALAC playback doesn't quite feel as responsive as other codecs yet, but it's very close.
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14.35.55 #       <linuxstb> OK, that's my last ALAC fix committed - it's now much more co-operative in its yields.
14.37.06 #       * linuxstb just read that pause doesn't work for ALAC files...
14.37.32 #       <linuxstb> I'll have to look at that later.  Got to go now.
14.49.32 #       <amiconn> gotta go now
14.50.01 #       <amiconn> Zagor: I'll keep my dyndns web server running
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15.05.21 #       <Zagor> amiconn: thanks, grabbed now
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15.37.20 #       <tucoz> Hi, is there a reason to why .fmr files do not have the open-with entry in the context menu?
15.37.54 #       <tucoz> ...as all other files I think have this.
15.38.34 #       <Lear> There's no viewer defined for it?
15.38.57 #       <Zagor> tucoz: it's simply not implemented. there is currently no support for multiple fmr files
15.41.26 #       <tucoz> Yes, but I mean, one would like to view it with the viewer?
15.41.30 #       <tucoz> like text
15.42.27 #       <tucoz> As it is possible to open a binary file with the viewer. For instance a mp3 file.
15.45.00 Quit    Sucka ("a bird in the bush is worth two in your house")
15.46.09 #       <tucoz> Ok, better example. It is possible to open up a .jar file (which is def. unsupported) with the viewer. 
15.46.54 #       <tucoz> That is why I thought there were some special reason to why .fmr files doesn't have the open with entry
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15.47.58 #       <ShacharLiberman> guys, I'm getting a:
15.47.59 #       <ShacharLiberman> Topic save error 
15.47.59 #       <ShacharLiberman> During save of file Main.PluginChip8 an error was found by the version control system. Please notify your Rockbox administrator. 
15.47.59 DBUG    Enqueued KICK ShacharLiberman
15.47.59 #       <ShacharLiberman> Save attachment error /usr/bin/ci -q -l -m%COMMENT|U% -t-none -w%USERNAME|S% %FILENAME|F% 
15.47.59 #       <ShacharLiberman> ci: missing message for -m option
15.48.03 #       <ShacharLiberman> Go back in your browser and save your changes locally. 
15.48.11 #       <ShacharLiberman> when I'm trying to upload the chip 8 games to
15.48.26 #       <ShacharLiberman> http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/PluginChip8
15.49.03 #       <ShacharLiberman> they are missing because of the wiki bug
15.49.19 #       <tucoz> weird
15.49.41 #       <ShacharLiberman> the wiki bug? -yeah.
15.49.51 #       <tucoz> And that you cannot upload the files
15.50.03 #       <ShacharLiberman> that too. what 2do?
15.50.17 #       <tucoz> Hmm, Zagor is the man for this I guess
15.51.08 #       <ShacharLiberman> well, he's not saying anything.
15.51.17 #       <tucoz> He was around like 15 minutes ago
15.51.48 #       <tucoz> If you got the time, I suggest you just wait some more.
15.52.12 #       <ShacharLiberman> I'll be connected, just not around. I'll try to find my registered nick as well :(
15.52.33 #       <tucoz> Ok, could you mail them to rasher perhaps?
15.53.35 #       <ShacharLiberman> np. what's his address?
15.53.37 #       <tucoz> I think that he keeps track of what is missing and not.
15.54.15 #       <tucoz> ok, it is rasher at rasher.dk
15.54.50 #       <tucoz> rasher: I just thought that you wanted it done this way. :)
15.55.19 #       <tucoz> afk
16.00.31 Quit    ashridah (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16.01.31 #       <ShacharLiberman> will you mind helping me in another problem?   i've installed cygwin from downloaded packages on a computer, and then found out that i was missing the Bash shell (so cygwin won't start at all). now i've downloaded bash & bash completion packages (version 3.0-11 & 20050721). now cygwin starts but the syntax is "BASH-3.00$" and not whatever it used to be, and no installed packages are running like mc or xemacs, i can't even dir or ls. should i 
16.02.23 #       <ShacharLiberman> I would love and answer I will be off for the next 20 minuts thanks!
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16.07.49 #       <lImbus> ShacharLiberman: I've been very successful with the DevKit BlueChip is providing: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cyborgsystems/CS_Main/RockBox/RockBox.htm
16.08.03 #       <lImbus> It's a completely packed up cygwin
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16.27.02 #       <Zagor> ShacharLiberman: sounds like you didn't provide a description for the attachment. the new version of twiki requires it.
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16.32.07 #       <Lear> If so, I'd say that's a pretty bad error message. :)
16.35.25 #       <tucoz> Interesting to read about the reorganization of Vista: http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB112743680328349448,00.html?mod=todays_us_page_one
16.35.49 #       <tucoz> Makes me think that windows might end up quite good.
16.36.00 #       <Lear> You mean like how they move much of the drivers out from kernel space again?
16.36.31 #       <tucoz> Yes, to make a smaller kernel
16.36.56 #       <Lear> Less likely to crash, rather.
16.37.05 #       <tucoz> hehe
16.37.25 #       <tucoz> But I have to say, windows xp doesn't crash that often
16.37.28 #       <Lear> But I'm not sure about all the DRM and related "security" stuff though.
16.37.33 #       <tucoz> Or rather, almost never
16.38.06 #       <tucoz> But isn't apple also in love with DRM and stuff like that?
16.38.10 #       <Lear> When it does for me, it's likely to be a certain driver-related thing (IRQ less than, or something).
16.38.29 #       <tucoz> And I think that osx looks like a nice OS
16.39.00 #       <Lear> Not into the OS core like what appears to be the case in Vista.
16.39.17 #       <tucoz> Oh, didn't know that.
16.39.19 #       <t0mas> Lear: "IRC_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL"
16.39.26 #       <t0mas> a popular one ;)
16.39.31 #       <t0mas> *IRQ
16.40.09 #       <Lear> Exactly. I had problems with that for a while, then I realized I needed to install some SATA RAID drivers from within windows (not just during install), after that, it's been much better.
16.40.28 #       <t0mas> well... windows still sucks on installing/updating drivers
16.40.38 #       <t0mas> specially videodrivers
16.40.43 #       <tucoz> my experience of SATA has been a PITA
16.40.49 #       <t0mas> (doesn't matter if it's ATI or Nvidea)
16.41.47 #       <t0mas> and security is just almost impossible for windows workstations.... if it's your own workstation, and you want security from the outside world it's possible with some thirdparty software...
16.42.26 #       <t0mas> but security from the inside (eg. the pc's at my vacation job needed to be used by visitors, but shouldn't be crackable)
16.42.30 #       <t0mas> that's just impossible
16.43.00 #       <tucoz> t0mas: I heard Vista will incorporate some sort of SUDO when installing programs.
16.43.10 #       <t0mas> you can't work without admin rights (lots of software doesn't work without it)... and you can't secure a workstation agains someone with admin rights (eg. disable registry editing, and people will use the reg import tool on the commandline :P)
16.43.35 #       <t0mas> it's just coded the wrong way around...
16.43.51 #       <t0mas> if you disable the commandprompt (cmd.exe) from tweakui... you can still run batch files...
16.44.06 #       <Zagor> it's a single-user system. always has been.
16.44.15 #       <t0mas> and if you disable registry editing (policy) then you can use the commandline tool "reg import file.reg" to change whatever you want
16.44.47 #       <t0mas> and if you can edit the registry, all oter policysettings are useless... you can disable them from a .reg file
16.45.17 #       <tucoz> t0mas: are you talking about vista or xp?
16.45.24 #       <t0mas> XP
16.45.35 #       <t0mas> we haven't tested if it's still this way in vista
16.45.55 #       <t0mas> it would be a good reason to upgrade if vista is better at this...
16.46.44 #       <t0mas> at this moment we have linux terminals, 1. they are more secure if you don't have root access... 2. people don't know that much about linux, so it takes longer to find leaks :P
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16.47.21 #       <tucoz> By reading that article, I got the feeling that Vista is a much better os in terms of how the core system is arranged
16.47.31 #       <ShacharLiberman> Limbus: how have you managed with the devkit?! without the setup program of cygwin I can't download new packages so all i can do is build rockbox up.
16.47.33 #       <tucoz> much better that xp at least
16.47.50 #       <ShacharLiberman> Zagor: i gave a description but i will try again and let you know.
16.48.14 #       <tucoz> Did you check the check box?
16.48.22 #       <tucoz> or whatever it is called
16.48.40 #       <ShacharLiberman> gimme a minute
16.48.41 #       <lImbus> ShacharLiberman: you can restart the cygwin-setup afterwards. it will recognise the bluechip-thing as cygwin and allow new packages to be installed
16.49.02 #       <t0mas> haha... today I had something funny
16.49.03 #       <ShacharLiberman> somone has uploaded them already :P
16.49.16 #       <t0mas> someone asked my dad if he knew what rockbox was...
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16.49.22 #       <t0mas> his name was in the releasenotes of 2.5
16.49.29 Nick    Naked is now known as Hadaka (i=naked@naked.iki.fi)
16.49.46 #       <t0mas> he was wondering what the other guy found...
16.49.52 #       <t0mas> and found out it was my name
16.49.53 #       <t0mas> haha
16.49.58 #       <tucoz> hehe
16.50.17 #       <ShacharLiberman> lImbus: but now that I already have all the packages except the bash working properly it's a shame :/     but thanks i'll try that
16.51.05 #       <lImbus> hehe
16.54.19 #       <tucoz> t0mas: just curious, did your dad know what rockbox is?
16.58.14 #       <t0mas> no he didn't
16.58.31 #       <t0mas> but when he read it was an mp3 player firmware he did know it was me...
16.58.44 #       <t0mas> because I showed him my iriver sometimes... showing new features
16.59.13 #       <tucoz> :)
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17.09.08 #       * fuzzie yawns.
17.13.17 #       * tucoz leaves
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17.13.51 #       <ShacharLiberman> Limbus (or anyone): where's "which" & "mc" packages are hiding?
17.14.21 #       <ShacharLiberman> woop! found which
17.14.51 #       <ShacharLiberman> but where's midnight commander?
17.16.47 #       <ShacharLiberman> help, someone?
17.18.26 #       <lImbus> dunno, sorry
17.19.23 #       <ShacharLiberman> i'm just asking where can you find midnight commander at :/ what else could you use? plain shell?
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18.52.23 #       <linuxstb> fuzzie: How is the AAC decoding going?
18.53.16 #       <fuzzie> I got it to work fine using the mp4ff library I mentioned, wondering exactly how/where to integrate that.
18.54.00 #       <fuzzie> Ideally it'd be accessible from both metadata.c and my codec, which means I can't just link it to one of them.
18.54.17 #       <fuzzie> Well, 'work fine' means 'it seems to work with one test file in the simulator'
18.54.44 #       <fuzzie> nothing beyond just playing, yet.
18.54.51 #       <fuzzie> i assume most of the work will be optimisation
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19.01.18 #       <webguest00> good afternoon - is it likely patch 1298779 will get committed soon? (corrects ato power off)
19.01.39 #       <webguest00> ato=auto
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19.08.38 #       <linuxstb> fuzzie: That's good news.  I'm happy to have a look at it if you want.
19.10.03 #       <linuxstb> Does the existing metadata.c m4a parser work with your AAC files?
19.13.38 #       <fuzzie> it worked on the test file i'm using with some minor modifications
19.13.55 #       <fuzzie> not on others, though
19.14.40 #       <linuxstb> Do you know how much memory mp4ff uses when parsing the metadata?
19.15.12 #       <fuzzie> nope, i'm not sure if it's an option
19.15.18 #       <fuzzie> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/faac/faad2/common/mp4ff/ <- if you want to take a look
19.15.42 #       <linuxstb> Thanks, I'll have a look.  Have you tried playback on a real device, or just the simulator?
19.15.47 #       <fuzzie> it might be best just to fix the code which is present, that's what i'm looking at it now
19.15.58 #       <fuzzie> and, just the simulator.
19.17.50 #       <linuxstb> I see there are lots and lots of mallocs in mp4ff - we want to avoid those if we can.
19.21.06 #       <fuzzie> a shared m4a metadata parser would probably work, it just needs to be capable of skipping all kinds of odd atoms
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19.54.00 #       <linuxstb> Slasheri: Are you around?  It seems we have reached the stage where we need to solve the problem of two codecs using the same extension (m4a).
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19.55.32 #       <Moos> Hello folks
19.56.40 #       <Moos> I just bought an ondio SP :)
19.57.25 #       <Moos> for preseving a bit my iriverh140 for the nights
19.57.26 #       <lImbus> congratz
19.57.46 #       <Moos> Hello lImbus, thanks
19.58.01 #       <Moos> it look very fine
19.58.19 #       <lImbus> :)
20.00.44 #       <Slasheri> linuxstb: sorry but almost completely away before the next week :/
20.01.44 #       <linuxstb> I don't mind looking into it.  It will be a chance for me to finally try and completely understand playback.c
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21.09.32 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I'm sure it's been discussed before somewhere, but I'm curious if once encoding is enabled whether transcoding files on the HD would be doable?
21.09.53 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Sorry, by "doable" I meant "a feature" rather than "physically possible"
21.16.48 #       <Zagor> Paul_The_Nerd: no it won't be added
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21.16.59 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Fair enough.
21.17.25 #       <Zagor> it's one of those things that's possible but rather pointless to do on the player.
21.17.44 #       <rasher> (currently you can do wav->wavpack)
21.19.06 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I thought of a few reasons I personally might want to do it. How hard would you say it might be for someone to create their own patch to do such a thing?
21.22.16 #       <Zagor> it can be pretty tricky, I'd say
21.26.30 #       <Zagor> you'd probably have to solve it by loading codec A, uncompressing to ram, unloading A, loading B, compressing to disk, repeat
21.27.12 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I was thinking of actually uncompressing to disk, since ram may not always be big enough.
21.27.19 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> But yeah
21.27.25 #       <Zagor> and, unless it isn't obivous: it will be slooow :-)
21.27.39 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> In *most* of the cases I imagine I'd want it, I'd be taking uncompressed audio and compressing it anyway
21.27.59 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I can just see myself recording say, the first day of something, realizing I didn't have as much space free as I thought, and not having someplace to offload it overnight.
21.28.24 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> So as long as the compressing was realtime or better, and it was going from WAV to whatever, no biggy.
21.28.40 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I imagine I'll be able to work something out.
21.28.48 #       <Zagor> I doubt you'll get realtime from any codec
21.29.56 #       <Zagor> however I have no numbers on that, so that's just speculation
21.30.12 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Fair enough.
21.30.32 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> But don't they have to reach realtime to compress while recording?
21.30.41 #       <Zagor> afaik no codec has been optimised for recording (compression) yet
21.30.47 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> "yet"
21.31.04 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I thought the goal was to have at least MP3 working for that (assuming the "can we use mp3" argument ever resolved)
21.31.47 #       <Zagor> yeah, it'd be nice to record in all formats. but I don't know how far away that is.
21.33.14 #       <Zagor> i still find the need for transcoding pretty hypothetical. but I'm not arguing with your right to choose your own project :-)
21.33.16 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah, but as soon as they get any one lossy format working for compression, it'd suit my purposes.
21.33.31 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yes, well, it wouldn't be a project any time soon.
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21.34.11 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I just know that any time I think of a "wouldn't it be great if X did Y" for *anything* I own, I eventually find myself in a situation if X did do Y, I'd be much better off.
21.35.42 #       <Zagor> yeah, maybe i've grown over-dismissive over the years. open firmware tends to bring out many "hey, wouldn't this be cool?" ideas...
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21.35.48 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
21.36.10 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I agree though, transcoding on-box seems pretty special-case useful.
21.37.27 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I was just wondering how difficult it seemed likely to be to implement once encoding codecs were in.
21.40.18 #       <Zagor> if you decompress completely to disk first (or only compress from wav), it's probably not that hard actually.
21.40.33 #       <Zagor> oh well :-)
21.41.10 #       <linuxstb> All we need to do is given plugins access to the codecs.  We can then write a generic "decode to wav" plugin, and eventually "encode from wav" plugin.
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21.42.12 #       <linuxstb> A wav-writer plugin is useful for a) optimising the codecs and b) testing that codecs (especially the lossless ones) are giving bit-perfect output.
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21.42.53 #       <Zagor> linuxstb: yeah. I was making it too complex in my head, running dual codecs in parallell and such...
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21.45.48 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Hehehe
21.46.10 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Complex can be a synonym for "fun" if you're the right sort of crazy, y'know.
21.46.27 #       <Zagor> :-)
21.47.05 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I'm *usually* that sort. But it's been forever since I programmed anything, and I keep delaying learning about the internals of rockbox.
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22.05.47 #       <solexx> my 2 cents: if the hw is too slow for realtime encoding to ogg/mp3, I'd still vote for flac :9
22.05.53 #       <solexx> :)
22.06.18 #       <solexx> I just compared encoding times from wav to ogg and flac
22.06.45 #       <solexx> and flac (default compression) is ~3 times faster than oggenc (quality doesn't matter much)
22.07.49 #       <solexx> i think especially for people doing long recordings, encoding would be a very cool thing.
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22.12.56 #       <linuxstb> I could be wrong, but I think David Bryant has got his wavpack encoder (lossless mode) working in realtime on the H1x0.
22.13.03 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Oooh.
22.13.28 #       <Zagor> nice
22.13.35 #       <linuxstb> So we just need a proper "recording codecs" architecture to plug it in to the iriver recording.
22.13.37 #       <solexx> great! (never heard of wavpack except through rockbox, though)
22.13.38 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Hehehe
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22.14.49 #       <linuxstb> In fact, there's a "wav2wv" (wv is the extension for wavpack) plugin already in CVS.
22.15.14 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Does anyone know of webpages where codecs are compared?
22.15.20 #       <linuxstb> I'm just testing it now, and it's showing that it is encoding at 176% realtime :)
22.15.36 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Would that just various forums, and like, HA?
22.16.02 #       <linuxstb> Yes, HA is probably the best source.  I think wavpack is highly regarding.
22.16.09 #       <linuxstb> s/regarding/regarded/
22.16.10 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I know it is.
22.16.15 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I haven't used it lossy at all yet though.
22.16.35 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I have enough space on my iRiver right now for my entire CD collection in lossless.
22.16.42 #       <linuxstb> Given how well David Bryant optimised it for the iriver, it's probably the best lossless codec to use in Rockbox at the moment.
22.16.53 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
22.17.01 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Though one or two of my songs still seem to skip.
22.17.31 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Like... I think I have maybe two that don't quite decompress fast enough.
22.18.07 #       <linuxstb> File a bug report if you can replicate it - I'm sure wavpack can run in realtime with the CPU  at 48KHz most of the time, so it shouldn't skip on any file.
22.18.14 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Gotcha
22.18.28 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I need to check to make sure it's not the file too.
22.18.55 #       <linuxstb> If you go to the Debug menu, and select "view audio thread", you can see what is happening during decoding.
22.19.00 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
22.19.19 #       <linuxstb> That will tell you if it's a CPU issue, or another problem.
22.19.21 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I've been there, but I'm always driving when it happens, and forget which song it was.
22.20.50 #       <solexx> Paul_The_Nerd: see http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/listen.html to compare yourself
22.20.54 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> It's also possible that the player's getting shaken just enough.
22.21.13 #       <solexx> doesn't contain wavpack, though
22.21.17 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
22.21.24 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> That's more what I was looking for. WV and MPC
22.21.47 #       <solexx> the original wav is there, so if you have an encoder...
22.21.54 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Vorbis and various mp3 I've got enough experience with
22.21.57 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Actually, I might do that.
22.22.22 #       <solexx> how "free" is wavpack compared to flac/ogg?
22.22.40 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Equally, if I recall.
22.23.44 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> www.wavpack.com
22.23.53 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> They describe it as "completely open"
22.25.11 #       <solexx> Thanks, sounds really interesting. Especially the hybrid mode.
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22.26.40 #       <solexx> wavpack.com even lists rockbox under "supported hardware" :)
22.26.48 #       <Zagor> hmm. the wavpack license includes an advertising clause...
22.26.55 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> What sort?
22.27.28 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah solexx, but if I recall Rockbox doesn't detect if a hybrid file is present, and just reads the lossy portion.
22.27.36 #       <Zagor> must redistribute entire license in docs "and/or other materials provided with the distribution"
22.29.17 #       <Zagor> not as bad as bsd, but the gpl-compatibility is not guaranteed
22.30.01 #       <solexx> do plugins need to be gpl-compatible?
22.30.13 #       <Zagor> yes
22.30.33 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I *think* it's okay though
22.30.41 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> All it says is the copyright notice *must* be reproduced.
22.30.48 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Doesn't the GPL have a clause like that?
22.30.55 #       <solexx> hm. debian doesn't ship any wavpack software...
22.31.01 #       <Zagor> not just the copyright notice, the entire license with terms and disclaimer
22.31.23 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I seem to recall the issue with Faad2 wasn't that it said that the reproduction of the notice was necessary, but the fact that it stated *how* it must be reproduced (IE, forced it to be displayed in the software)
22.31.28 #       <Zagor> I wonder if that could be defined as "additional requirements"
22.31.43 #       <Zagor> Paul_The_Nerd: yes, they did the old bsd mistake
22.33.27 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Actually, the third term, the "neither..." is the one I'd be worried about.
22.33.49 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Because the first two terms "must be reproduced."
22.33.57 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Both of them are present in the GPL, I think.
22.34.09 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> So, they are reproduced *by* the GPL.
22.34.18 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Right?
22.34.48 #       <Zagor> i don't know. it's not obvious.
22.34.51 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah
22.35.06 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> But the third one "Neither the name..." etc, is very definitely an additional requirement.
22.35.14 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> If it has to be reproduced as well.
22.35.39 #       <Zagor> "must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer"
22.35.52 #       <Zagor> it doesn't say "the first two conditions"
22.35.59 #       <solexx> Strange. This issue doesn't seem to have been discussed on debian-legal yet
22.36.04 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yep
22.36.22 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> So, the first two could be argued over, but the third is clearly an addition requirement I think.
22.36.28 #       <Zagor> I think this is just a home-cooked license nobody really gave much thought about
22.36.32 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Yeah, probably
22.36.41 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I think he wanted it to be less restrictive than GPL
22.36.47 #       <linuxstb> I've got a feeling wavpack used to be GPL'd.
22.36.54 #       <Zagor> probably would be easy to persuade them to change to BSD
22.37.05 #       <solexx> Is "wavpack" a "name of Conifer Software"?
22.37.06 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I *bet* if you said "Hey, you want wavpack to be in Rockbox right? Will you license a version to us under GPL?"
22.37.14 #       <linuxstb> I also don't think it's "them" - just David Bryant.
22.37.26 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> You'd get a "sure"
22.37.43 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Just because it's released under one license, doesn't mean it can't also be released under another simultaneously.
22.37.44 #       <Zagor> aha, david is the sole genius
22.37.57 #       <Zagor> Paul_The_Nerd: right
22.38.27 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> And I'd get good odds you'd get a "fine" or a "I don't really like it, but maybe we can settle on another license that's compatible"
22.38.37 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> *set
22.39.22 #       <linuxstb> Zagor: I'm not 100% sure if David Bryant is the lone genius, but I haven't heard any other names mentioned.
22.40.13 #       <Zagor> I'll fire off a friendly email
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22.47.44 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Well... I don't know of the wavpack problem is simply not reproduceable, or just gone.
22.48.18 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Though, I suspect it may have something to do with codec swtching. I've noticed sometimes when I next track, it plays a fraction of a second of the next track, then some from the track I'm leaving, then starts playing the next track properly, which seems odd behaviour as well.
22.48.58 #       <solexx> Paul_The_Nerd: I have this behaviour quite often with rockbox
22.49.00 #       <Zagor> man, I'm out of my head today. that *IS* the BSD license. bah!
22.49.06 #       <Zagor> I should get more sleep
22.49.16 #       <linuxstb> Any bugs you can find, add to the IRiverStatus wiki page.
22.49.41 #       <linuxstb> (Sorry, IriverStatus)
22.50.02 #       <solexx> linuxstb: didn't think  of it as a bug until now, just "unclean" behaviour
22.50.25 #       <linuxstb> Anything that isn't perfect, mention on that page.  We can decide later if it's important or not.
22.50.49 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I still can't reproduce it consistently.
22.51.10 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I was waiting to really bring it up until I could figure out how to definitively tell someone a way to cause it.
22.51.41 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> It *seems* to be switching tracks from WV to MP3 when the next song isn't buffered. Maybe.
22.52.32 #       <solexx> Paul_The_Nerd: not in my case - I only have mp3 and ogg
22.52.55 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I figured it might happen on others
22.53.04 #       <solexx> and it occurs even when switching tracks from the same album (==same codec)
22.53.09 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Hrm
22.53.11 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> I haven't noticed that
22.53.47 #       <solexx> will try to narrow it down. 
22.53.47 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Does that happen with MP3s, Oggs, or both?
22.53.57 #       <solexx> don't know
22.54.00 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Gotcha
22.55.25 #       <solexx> cannot test it now, I have a friend over here
22.55.40 #       <solexx> He's already irritated that I am IRC'ing all the time :)
22.55.56 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> linuxstb: Where would it fit on that page?
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23.15.25 #       <linuxstb> Paul_The_Nerd: Not sure.  Maybe add a table called "Other Issues" after "Tasks Remaing" and put it in there.
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23.17.03 #       <Paul_The_Nerd> Fair enough.
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