--- Log for 25.03.109  Server: lindbohm.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 7 days and 16 hours ago

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00.09.15 #       <PaulJam> hi, the upload page from the new themes site links to a non existing wiki page (WhyRealNames).
00.09.50 #       <TBOL3> Well, it seems to have calmed down a bit.   I would like to ask you a few questions about GSOC, before all of you go offline.  Yesterday I was told that some of my ideas were ok, and others wouldn't be accepted.
00.10.52 #       <TBOL3> The largest idea that I had was to make a rockbox tool, to manage all of your content, for your computer.
00.11.01 #       <rasher> PaulJam: I wonder where that went
00.11.28 #       <linuxstb> I don't think it ever existed - I think I added that link to the upload form in SVN...
00.11.30 #       <TBOL3> These ideas included  things such as if you were playing a song on your computer, you should be able to plug in your DAP, and continue right where you left off.
00.11.38 #       <rasher> linuxstb: Ah!
00.11.52 Quit    ender` (" It would seem that everything is easier on a mac after all - right down to the exploits.")
00.11.53 #       <linuxstb> I can add it now, unless someone else wants to (or we don't want it...)
00.12.02 #       <TBOL3> ALso, I proposed a managment of your content accrost computers.
00.12.07 #       <rasher> I could've sworn it used to exist, but I'm probably thinking of the bit in CONTRIBUTING
00.12.19 #       <kugel> me too
00.12.43 #       <gevaerts> TBOL3: some of that sounds *very* complicated to me
00.13.08 #       * linuxstb finds it ironic that PaulJam found that bug...
00.13.10 #       <TBOL3> Ya, that was the responce I got on the second idea.
00.13.17 #       <PaulJam> hehe
00.13.58 #       <gevaerts> You seem to be talking about integrating bookmarks with lots of PC-side apps and things like that...
00.14.30 #       <TBOL3> But I was thinking that rather then making a front end, it really should be more of a plug in that can go into anyone's favorite music programl.
00.14.45 #       <TBOL3> gevaerts:  Ya, I guess you could say that.
00.15.07 #       <TBOL3> Infact, I think that's almost exactly what the idea is.
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00.15.33 #       <TBOL3> But it may not be a big enough project (maybe it is, but it doesn't seem like it would be any more than a couple of hours work).
00.15.41 #       <gevaerts> TBOL3: if you're doing that sort of thing, you will want to build a library to integrate in other things, yes.
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00.17.18 #       <TBOL3> But the other idea that I had, that I thought would be fun, would be to make a 'simpler' user interface.  As of yet the responses were that I would  need to have experience in making a good UI.
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00.18.10 #       <Llorean> You'd also need to demonstrate why we'd want to include it. GSoC projects are generally expected to be code we're willing to take into SVN, and a reduced UI generally isn't that favourable.
00.18.36 #       * bluebrother grmbls at differing target names
00.18.39 #       <TBOL3> No, not a reduced UI, a more intuitive UI.
00.18.56 #       <TBOL3> It was on your project ideas page.
00.18.59 #       <bluebrother> what's unintuitive with the current one?
00.19.15 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Ah, then yes, you'd need to demonstrate some qualification for UI design.
00.19.23 #       * flyback goes to bury his sansa
00.19.38 #       <Llorean> Otherwise you're really just likely to be saying "intuitive means 'what I personally expect it to do'" which has often been the case with such suggestions.
00.19.41 #       <gevaerts> flyback: are you sure it's broken?
00.20.42 #       <TBOL3> bluebrother:  Well, for one I think that the quick screen is really unintuitive, it comes up when you don't want it to, and you can't easily get rid of it.
00.21.29 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Yes, I'm not talking about making something that I personally want, rather, I would preform studies to see what others want out of their DAP, and put on together from their.
00.22.00 #       <flyback> yeah it went dead after I slammed it into the floor
00.22.13 #       <bluebrother> the quick screen comes up when you don't want it to? Never happened to me
00.22.19 #       <flyback> I took it apart and washed down the pcb I can't find obvious damage
00.22.25 #       <flyback> it won't even show up as a usb device anymore
00.22.28 #       <gevaerts> flyback: sansas have a common issue with loose memoryboards. If it's that, it can be reseated
00.22.45 #       <flyback> I don't care the screen was broken a while ago and it's been having more and more problems
00.22.52 #       <gevaerts> ah ok...
00.22.56 #       <flyback> yeah I saw that but it won't init even with it off
00.23.05 #       <TBOL3> Oh well.  Maybe I'll come up with something else....
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00.23.36 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Such studies would need to be done before GSoC started, really, to be included as part of your proposal for the rewrite.
00.23.43 #       <TBOL3> Anyway, I was thinking the Rockbox Utility really be downloadible on the front page, as it is the recomended way to get rockbox.
00.23.45 #       * linuxstb creates WhyRealNames, but decides to leave it to someone else (Bagder ?) to explain why...
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00.23.47 #       * bluebrother grmbls even more about differing target names
00.24.24 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: It's mentioned in the manual as the recommended way, and it's not really feasible to install Rockbox without at least looking at the manual.
00.25.54 #       <rasher> Llorean: I'm struggling to come up with a post that isn't simply a copy of ThemeGuidelines...
00.26.09 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  True, but currently, the page is hidden in the dark corners of the website.  Maybe at least a link there right from the main page (rather than having to go through the release page) would help.
00.27.01 #       <gevaerts> TBOL3: I think your idea for this universal sync app (or whatever you want to call it) could be nice, but we'd want a proposal that details how you plan to do these things
00.27.01 #       <Llorean> rasher: I posted something. But you could just call it "New Theme Guidelines" and point to that page and/or link to the new site? I don't think it needs to be long, just noticeable.
00.27.08 #       <rasher> I do think RockboxUtility needs to be pushed more prominently
00.27.22 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: It's also linked from the manual. How is it "hidden" if users are given the link in the documentation they must read anyway?
00.27.27 #       <wincent> If I may, as TBOL3 does, ask again about my idea of a project for GSoC, would an application which makes musical instrument on Rockbox be a welcome addition to the main tree?
00.28.33 #       <TBOL3> wincent:  I'm sorry, I don't follow what you want to make.
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00.29.37 #       <wincent> TBOL3: Go to the IRC log from 23.03 and search for my nickname. You'll find a short discussion about it.
00.30.19 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Because it's not just sitting there. Not everyone will just read the manual, and then and there, decide to install rockbox.  Some people will read the manual, and think about whether or not they want to install.  Then they go back and install it.
00.30.21 #       <linuxstb> rasher: I agree as well.  The "current releases" page has a link to it, maybe that needs to go on the current builds as well.
00.30.29 #       <rasher> Llorean: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=21072.0
00.30.53 #       <rasher> linuxstb: I think the link is far too easy to overlook
00.30.58 #       <TBOL3> If their going back to install it later, then it would be better for them to be able to just get it off of the homepage.
00.31.01 #       <Llorean> wincent: On what day? And are you using 23.03 your time or log time?
00.31.02 #       <rasher> A huge "Download installer" icon or something
00.31.35 #       <wincent> Llorean: 23.03.2009 is the date.
00.31.36 #       <TBOL3> rasher:  Ya, but it doesn't need to be massive.  Just a link on the sidebard would do.
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00.32.36 #       <TBOL3> TBOL3:  Also, it would also be good to make the utility so intuitive that one does not need to read the manual to install.  However, it needs to be unintrusive so that people like us don't find it intruisive.
00.32.55 #       <TBOL3> Which would leave wizerds out of the question...
00.33.01 #       <TBOL3> At least long ones.
00.33.16 #       * gevaerts dislikes the word "intuitive" when applied to software
00.33.39 #       * Llorean dislikes the word intuitive in most cases, since it's often misused.
00.34.04 #       <Llorean> gevaerts: I think in many cases things are intuitive in that they "do what someone would expect them to do on first look" even if they're complicated.
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00.34.36 #       <TBOL3> Ok, I'm sorry.
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00.35.23 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Most people don't need to read the manual to install. RButil is simple enough for people to follow onscreen instructions.
00.35.28 #       <gevaerts> wincent: I'm not entirely sure what this work would involve. Just porting to rockbox? Lots of UI work on it? Work on the pd core itself? Would this be just for ipod, or for most supported targets? (note that this is the first time I see any of this)
00.35.34 #       <Llorean> But there's a very real benefit to encourage people to at least notice the manual before starting an install
00.36.02 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Great, than all the more reason why it should have a link on the main page.
00.36.51 #       <gevaerts> wincent: also, do you have some idea about minimum CPU and RAM requirements (from seeing the video they shouldn't be too high, but still good to know) ?
00.36.51 #       <TBOL3> So, during the first install, if it seas that your DAP doesn't already have rockbox on it, than it should recomend you to read the manual.
00.36.56 #       <linuxstb> Maybe the problem isn't linking to rbutil more prominently, but the lack of some kind of "quick start" page, which briefly explains to a new user how to get started.
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00.37.10 #       <TBOL3> Also,, the rockbox utility already has a big tab that says manual.
00.37.11 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Porting PureData, porting TCP/IP (communication between PureData core and UI) and then writing a user interface which is usable on DAPs.
00.37.15 #       <gevaerts> TBOL3: so it should recommend me to read the manual fifteen times?
00.37.40 #       <wincent> gevaerts: At least DAPs which have enough controls.
00.37.42 #       <TBOL3> linuxstb:  YES, bingo, that is perfect!
00.37.46 #       <jhMikeS> does find_first_set_bit for MIPS return 32 when the input a0 is zero? It looks like it would return -1 (who's the mips guy here?)
00.37.57 #       <TBOL3> DAP's with enough controls?
00.38.02 #       <linuxstb> TBOL3: We welcome contributions to the wiki...
00.38.11 #       <wincent> TBOL3: Enough buttons.
00.38.39 #       <gevaerts> wincent: can you explain a bit more about how this thing is structured? Core, UI, other things?
00.38.54 #       <TBOL3> Great, I will get started (well, not right now, I have some schoolwork to do first), but where should I post the page?
00.39.27 #       <TBOL3> wincent:  Umm... what does enough buttons have to do with anything, is what I was asking.
00.39.29 #       * rasher mentions we had a QuickStart page once
00.39.31 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Now about the CPU and RAM requirements: F_CPU > 100 MHz (runs on Gumstix (small ARM boards) too), RAM
00.39.37 #       <linuxstb> rasher: We did?
00.39.40 #       <rasher> But it turned into not-so-quick-start it seems
00.39.50 #       <TBOL3> rasher:  Ok, can I see it, and can you tell me why you took it down?
00.39.53 #       <rasher> linuxstb: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/QuickStart
00.40.06 #       <linuxstb> rasher: Thanks, but I managed to track that URL down... ;)
00.40.12 #       <rasher> Looks like it was not-exactly-quick-start
00.40.13 #       <TBOL3> Nice, he, he.
00.40.38 #       <rasher> TBOL3: you can view older versions...
00.40.39 #       <wincent> TBOL3: Well, in writing my port of a UI for PureData I had to define 7 buttons.
00.40.57 #       <TBOL3> Ya, I just found it.
00.40.58 #       <linuxstb> rasher: Yes, I'm thinking of a "quick start to the rockbox project", rather than just talking about Rockbox itself.
00.41.26 #       <TBOL3> Ok, umm... I honostly think I can improve on that page.
00.41.42 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Of course it will need fixed-point PureData core called PDanywhere ( http://gige.xdv.org/pda/ ).
00.41.43 #       <linuxstb> TBOL3: So I would say write your new page on that same wiki page (ignore all the old content)
00.41.44 #       <TBOL3> First, less text, second, more pictures.
00.41.52 #       <linuxstb> TBOL3: No....
00.42.01 #       <TBOL3> No?
00.42.04 #       <linuxstb> TBOL3: I'm not talking about a guide to installing Rockbox.
00.42.34 #       <TBOL3> I'm not either.  And I'm not saying to take out information.
00.42.39 #       <TBOL3> Just make it look nicer.
00.42.45 #       <linuxstb> Make what look nicer?
00.42.51 #       <linuxstb> There's nothing to edit...
00.42.58 #       <TBOL3> Anyway, argueing isn't helping, can I just make a new page on that old one?
00.43.17 #       <TBOL3> And then we can discuss this.
00.43.28 #       <TBOL3> Is that fair?
00.43.31 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Now about UI -- recently I wrote a Qtopia port of a relatively rudimentary UI (in comparison to the PD's own one), the link is http://www.katastrophos.net/wincent/blog/ .
00.43.35 #       <Llorean> Pictures shouldn't be functional if you're going to include them
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00.43.47 #       <Llorean> You can show a screen, but you should give instructions that can be used without the pictures.
00.44.02 #       <Llorean> Don't say "use the top left button" but rather "click the button labelled <label>" etc.
00.44.54 #       <TBOL3> Alright, oh well.  I'll come back here when I'm done with a new page.  And than you guys can tell me how much I suck.  :)  Untill then, good bye!
00.45.00 #       <wincent> gevaerts: PD and the UI communicate over UDP, so a TCP/IP stack would have to be ported, I found lwIP to be rather appealing.
00.45.02 #       <Nico_P> jhMikeS: I have a very plugin that uses pcm_play_dma_get_peak_buffer(). do we have an FFT, or do you know a good one I could use?
00.45.03 #       <linuxstb> TBOL3: I'm not arguing, I'm just trying to understand what your intention is, as it seems different from what I had in mind.  We don't want to duplicate information that's elsewhere, but rather point users to various other places.
00.45.34 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Do you have other questions?
00.45.52 #       <Llorean> linuxstb: A user friendly limited index and guide to said index, basically?
00.46.25 #       <gevaerts> wincent: so both UI and core would run on the player, or am I misunderstanding this?
00.47.06 #       <linuxstb> I guess so.  Something as short as we can make it (so people will read it), but giving them all the information we would want a new user to know (or pointing them to where that information is).
00.47.17 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Yes, both of them would run on the player.
00.47.55 #       <jhMikeS> Nico_P: Are you doing a spectrum analyzer?
00.47.57 #       <gevaerts> wincent: are you aware that rockbox doesn't have things like processes?
00.48.38 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Of course. First step would be to port PureData's scheduler and audio I/O anyways.
00.49.05 #       <Nico_P> jhMikeS: I'm toying with the idea at least
00.49.17 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Then of course TCP/IP, then the UI.
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00.50.02 #       <linuxstb> wincent: Why do you want/need to port TCP/IP?
00.50.04 #       <gevaerts> if I were you, I'd rip out the UDP communication and replace it with something more appropriate for this specific case than add TCP/IP...
00.50.48 #       <gevaerts> UDP between different threads in the same address space doesn't make much sense IMHO
00.51.04 #       <wincent> linuxstb: For being able not to change communication part of PureData too.
00.51.14 #       <jhMikeS> Nico_P: I had some FFT code that came with a spectrally-based time/pitch stretcher (somewhere around here).
00.51.42 #       <gevaerts> wincent: you're going to have to change lots of things in it. The communication bit would probably be one of the simplest ones to do
00.52.02 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Yes, I thought about it. I could write some internal objects for PureData which do message passing instead of UDP.
00.52.57 #       <Nico_P> jhMikeS: would you by any chance have that code at hand?
00.53.08 #       * jhMikeS goes rummaging
00.54.30 #       <rasher> I think something like this: http://rasher.dk/rockbox/HUGEBUTTON.png (apart from being the wrong project) would make give rockbox utility the attention it deserves. I expect some people just go "ooh shiny a picture of my player!" and we might be able to distract them before they get that far
00.54.31 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Otherwise, letting lwIP running on Rockbox would making it easier to port TCP/IP for the whole system, for USB CDC for example.
00.55.41 #       <linuxstb> rasher: So we need a Rockbox Utility logo competition? ;)
00.55.54 #       <rasher> linuxstb: well, maybe
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00.56.47 #       <gevaerts> wincent: maybe, but that doesn't make it a good idea here...
00.57.09 #       <jhMikeS> Nico_P: http://jhmikes.cleansoap.org/smbPitchShift.cpp
00.57.23 #       <Llorean> rasher: Maybe not *quite* so huge, but close.
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00.58.03 #       <wincent> gevaerts: Ok, GSoC runs only for three months, so simplifying the project has quite a priority.
00.58.43 #       <rasher> Llorean: yeah, it was a bit bigger than I remembered it.
00.58.53 #       <Llorean> rasher: maybe even hide the table by default and have a "manual install" link that goes to the table page, so the only "obvious" solution is the automatic install?
00.59.27 #       <rasher> Llorean: I don't see anything terribly wrong with that, really
00.59.49 #       <Llorean> I don't see why we really need to present the table to users any more.
01.00.02 #       <Llorean> It's painfully obvious the pictures of players don't help people realize they're not downloading one for their player.
01.00.32 #       <rasher> Llorean: I can't parse that last sentence
01.01.17 #       <rasher> You mean people get the wrong build?
01.01.18 #       <Nico_P> jhMikeS: thanks
01.01.22 #       <Llorean> rasher: People look at the pictures, and still download a Mini2G build thinking it will work on their Nano2G, or an iPod4G Grayscale expecting it to work on a Nano4G
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01.01.36 #       <Llorean> The pictures don't help the very people they're intended to help. And other people probably don't need them.
01.01.47 #       <linuxstb> wincent: Do you have much experience with Rockbox?
01.02.10 #       <rasher> Llorean: Gotcha
01.02.18 #       <Llorean> rasher: I think having the table still be visible was originally thought to help people visually recognize which players were supported, even if they ended up getting pointed to the auto install once they got confused at the bootloader step
01.02.27 #       <Llorean> I don't see any reason at all to present people with the table now.
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01.03.54 #       <wincent> linuxstb: Well not much. From the tutorial in the Wiki I wrote a (really small) hello world plug-in and it works in the simulator. And I looked at the available developer's documentation. Apart from that... not much.
01.04.53 #       <tuxedup> hello, I have some question about rockbox, so please excuse my ignorence.  I see from the releases page that the Sndisk Sansa c200 is supported.  Does this mean it supports just the c200?  Or any of the c200 range e.g. c260?
01.05.30 #       <Llorean> tuxedup: Any of the c200 series, as long as they're the first version hardware internally.
01.06.05 #       <rasher> This seems a common question. Maybe we should just list them all?
01.06.16 #       <rasher> There aren't *that* many
01.06.32 #       <tuxedup> hmm, so if I were to buy a c260 from amazon today it may not be compatible because of newer hardware?
01.06.35 #       <Llorean> rasher: Or just add the word "series" in a few more places on the front page.
01.06.43 #       <Llorean> tuxedup: Almost certainly won't be.
01.06.49 #       <tuxedup> :(
01.06.51 #       <rasher> Llorean: Not convinced that works in practice
01.07.10 #       <Llorean> rasher: Right now it says c200, e200, and e200R series.
01.07.16 #       <Llorean> One can read that as single, single, and series
01.07.49 #       <Llorean> I think the list would get quite long if we did, say, H110, H115, H120, H140, H320, H340, etc. All the applicable cases where series names need expanding.
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01.08.08 #       <tuxedup> do you know of any supported devices that i would be able to buy new today from amazon for example that would work, or is it largely for the older models/revisions?
01.08.44 #       <Llorean> tuxedup: There's really nothing available "new" that's 'supported' at this time.
01.09.04 #       <linuxstb> rasher: I think saying "series" would help.  Or at least, it's worth trying...
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01.09.30 #       <tuxedup> i dont mean, new as top of the line new product release.  I just mean not a seccond hand device
01.09.47 #       <Llorean> tuxedup: I mean the same thing. You basically have to buy refurbished or used.
01.09.50 #       <rasher> Llorean: I only ever see this for the sansas.
01.09.58 #       <Llorean> rasher: I saw it for the H100 a few times too.
01.10.18 #       <tuxedup> ah sorry misunderstood
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01.10.31 #       <Llorean> rasher: And they're really the only players where it happens so far, I think. I just suspect "series" ought to be enough.
01.10.37 #       <Llorean> It's clear people do read it, and misunderstand.
01.11.24 #       <rasher> Llorean: So "Sansa c200 series, e200 series and e200R series"?
01.11.41 #       <Llorean> I think that'd be clearer.
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01.12.14 #       <rasher> And H100 series, H300 series and H10 series
01.12.21 #       <tuxedup> do you know of any other projects that may be worth looking at that provide similar functionallity to rockbox, i ask as my player is on its last legs and all my music is in ogg format and iriver and iaudio devices are very expensive
01.12.31 #       <Llorean> But I mean, c240, c250, c260, c270 is also clear, it just feels cumbersome
01.12.35 #       <gevaerts> wincent: this looks like something that we certainly won't reject on sight :). I personally have no idea how much chance it would have to be accepted, as a lot will also depend on what other applications we get, but I think we'd certainly like to see a detailed proposal
01.12.47 #       <Llorean> rasher: iHP100 series, H100 series, H300 series, and h10 series
01.12.53 #       <Llorean> rasher: If we want to avoid confusion
01.12.57 #       <rasher> Ah yes
01.13.15 #       <rasher> Llorean: Lowercase h10?
01.13.21 #       <Llorean> wincent: I agree with gevearts, a details proposal.
01.13.24 #       <Llorean> rasher: I don't know, actually
01.13.31 #       <Llorean> rasher: that was a typo on my part.
01.14.11 #       <Nico_P> jhMikeS: according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrogram what I need is actually a STFT
01.14.12 #       <rasher> Wikipedia has it uppercased
01.14.17 #       <Llorean> tuxedup: Rockbox is (mostly) the cutting edge in alternative firmware for MP3 players. If we knew of another project that ran on similar but newer players, we'd probably have people already interested in working on incorporating their code.
01.14.23 #       <Llorean> rasher: uppercase it is, then
01.14.25 #       <linuxstb> rasher: Maybe we don't need H10 series - aren't both of them called "H10" ?
01.14.48 #       <Llorean> linuxstb: There's also an "H10 Pure" I thinK?
01.14.52 Quit    Thundercloud (Remote closed the connection)
01.15.02 #       <linuxstb> And Rockbox runs on that/
01.15.03 #       <linuxstb> ?
01.15.08 Quit    PaulJam (Success)
01.15.10 #       <Llorean> I think it just means "without radio"?
01.15.19 #       <Llorean> It's the flash H10s we don't run on, right?
01.15.27 #       <jhMikeS> Nico_P: Short Time Fourier Transform? That's what that code is.
01.15.31 #       <wincent> gevaerts, Llorean: Thank you for your time and advice (linuxstb too)! See you with a proposal. Bye!
01.15.32 #       <tuxedup> Llorean: okie dokie, well thanks very much for your time, I will just hold on and save for a Iaudio perhaps :)  Thank you again
01.15.34 #       <Nico_P> oh, ok
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01.15.55 #       <tuxedup> Llorean: okie dokie, well thanks very much for your time, I will just hold on and save for a Iaudio perhaps  Thank you again
01.16.11 #       <Llorean> linuxstb: Or maybe I'm confused. I seem to remember a very small Flash model
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01.26.17 #       <gevaerts> rasher: how hard would it be to check if the default font(s) are enough, or if you need fonts.zip?
01.26.43 #       <rasher> gevaerts: not terribly
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01.26.59 #       <rasher> Well. We ship different amount of fonts on different targets. That complicates it
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01.27.30 #       <Llorean> Why not skip that for the theme site, and add a feature to rbutil.
01.27.50 #       <Llorean> Just a warning when installing a theme of the font isn't present on the device. "Needs a font not currently installed" or similar
01.27.51 #       <gevaerts> hm, good idea. rbutil can check what fonts are actually on the player...
01.27.59 #       <rasher> Yes
01.27.59 #       <linuxstb> gevaerts: What do you mean by default font(s) ?  The ones in the fonts download, or the ones included in every zip?
01.28.10 #       <gevaerts> linuxstb: the ones in rockbox.zip
01.28.31 #       <rasher> "One or more of your themes need additional fonts installed. Click OK to download the fonts package"
01.28.32 #       <linuxstb> Isn't that about to be reduced to 1?
01.28.41 #       <Llorean> rasher: that implies the fonts package will fix it.
01.28.50 #       <Llorean> linuxstb: I hope so.
01.28.53 #       <rasher> linuxstb: one per target. Not the same across targets
01.29.03 #       <rasher> So it's still not quite as simple
01.29.07 #       <gevaerts> linuxstb: even then, Llorean's idea is better I think
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01.29.09 #       <rasher> Llorean: it really should
01.29.16 #       <linuxstb> gevaerts: I agree.
01.29.32 #       <rasher> Unless the theme is broken, of course
01.29.33 #       <Llorean> rasher: Did we require in the guidelines that themes only include fonts we provide?
01.29.48 #       <Llorean> Er, only *use* fonts we provide
01.30.11 #       <rasher> Llorean: no, but it should include it if it uses one we don't
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01.30.39 #       <Llorean> rasher: Rather we should ask people to contribute fonts they want to use, I think. Or have a "third party fonts" section of the themes site eventually
01.30.43 #       <rasher> On the other hand it *must not* include it if it's in the fonts pack. This isn't detailed enough
01.30.49 #       <Llorean> Otherwise if two themes both use a font named "myfont.fnt" they can overwrite each other easily
01.31.21 #       <rasher> Can happen with icons as well
01.31.28 #       <rasher> Not that it makes it better
01.31.30 #       <Llorean> Maybe "if you're using a third party font, it should be named fontname-themename to distinguish it from other possibly similar fonts from different sources"?
01.31.43 #       <rasher> Not a bad idea
01.32.07 #       <Llorean> it might mean duplicates, but I think that's better than random breakages.
01.32.16 #       <linuxstb> Isn't there a filename length limit though?  I don't know if that's with /.rockbox/fonts/
01.33.04 #       <Llorean> I'm not sure
01.34.50 #       <rasher> Speaking of filename, I'll just throw this out again: The font browser should center on the currently loaded font.
01.34.51 #       <taylor_> has anyone here confirmed if the new ipods have a hibernation mode? I don't feel like leaving my ipod on for 14 hrs. ;)
01.35.11 #       <taylor_> not that I would expect someone to have done that
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01.36.02 #       <krazykit> especially considering you presumably mean devices that aren't rockbox targets
01.36.41 #       <DarkSpectrum> anyone have a quick link to the font converter?
01.37.00 #       <taylor_> well, who knows what people have around here.
01.37.13 #       <rasher> taylor_: Please stick to the topic.
01.37.21 #       <taylor_> Just because they don't develop for them doesn't mean they don't personally have one.
01.37.27 #       <taylor_> rasher: this is on topic
01.37.33 #       <taylor_> haven't got to my point yet.
01.37.43 #       <taylor_> Im just wondering because the older ones did
01.37.52 #       <taylor_> And when they went into hibernation mode..
01.38.03 #       <taylor_> it would dump current RAM to a new partition on the flash
01.38.20 #       <taylor_> hance, you could edit the contents, and "reboot"
01.38.38 #       <rasher> Why did that need to take up 10 lines?
01.39.00 #       <taylor_> Why does it matter?
01.39.07 #       <taylor_> anyways...thats it
01.39.10 #       <linuxstb> Because this channel is logged.
01.39.10 #       <Llorean> taylor_: Because we have a guideline in here about not writing long series of short lines.
01.39.33 #       <taylor_> Ok
01.39.41 #       <linuxstb> taylor_: But it would seem unlikely that Apple would leave such an obvious hole in their security.
01.39.50 #       <taylor_> yeah
01.39.56 #       <taylor_> well thats what I thought too...
01.40.04 #       <taylor_> but its always good to check first.
01.40.04 #       <Llorean> linuxstb: Well, it does require letting the device hibernate, removing the disk, altering the contents, and rebooting.
01.40.05 #       <taylor_> thanks
01.40.17 #       <linuxstb> But it can only really be checked on a Classic...
01.40.23 #       <Llorean> Indeed.
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01.40.38 #       <taylor_> Thats one way the older guys were hacked
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01.41.08 #       <taylor_> but like linuxstb said, its an obvious hole
01.42.12 #       <taylor_> * wishes he had a 5G and memory dumper
01.42.54 #       <taylor_> alright, well, thats enough for today. Good night, guys.
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01.52.14 #       <soap> can a wiki admin block uploads to the WPS Gallery and WPS Graveyard wiki pages?
01.52.27 #       <soap> "uploads" as in "attachments"
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01.55.41 #       <epx998> so no rockbox for the ipod classic?
01.56.03 #       <Llorean> No. the front page is accurate.
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01.56.37 #       <epx998> huh no zune, classic or touch. meh
01.57.03 #       <Llorean> epx998: It's all volunteer work. I don't see you volunteering to do it.
01.57.26 #       <epx998> fo'sho, im just a sheepeople.
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02.00.01 #       <epx998> oh well, lawl @ u.
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02.07.59 #       * Nico_P suggests adding a news item on the front page about the themes site
02.09.13 #       <Nico_P> also, congratulations to all the people that helped make it happen. It's very nice :)
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02.11.59 #       <JdGordon> speaking of which...
02.12.24 #       <JdGordon> rasher: can you make the grid dynamic? instead of always being 7 columns?
02.13.41 #       <JdGordon> also... the theme upload should accept .bmp and convert them seen as thats what the sim dumps
02.14.02 #       <JdGordon> but other than that.... /me echos Nico_P's congrats to all
02.14.16 #       <Llorean> JdGordon: gd doesn't like BMP.
02.14.42 #       <JdGordon> no imagemagik?
02.15.04 #       <JdGordon> is that the topic i sort of ignored in the other chan yesterday?
02.16.13 #       <Llorean> Possibly
02.17.53 #       <Unhelpful> JdGordon: i don't think he really wants to call yet another outside lib
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02.25.35 #       <rasher> JdGordon: Making the grid dynamic is pretty darn difficult to do in a cross-browser way
02.26.25 #       <rasher> I've asked the author of some bmp-reading php code for permission to use it (no license attached where I found it)
02.27.20 #       <rasher> The individual theme list pages could/should probably be a bit more dynamic though, since we know the width of the images we can aim for a mostly consistent width of the table
02.27.40 #       <rasher> Still won't fit everyone's browser, but at least it'll be uniformly bad
02.32.04 #       <Unhelpful> i've done dynamic grid layouts, often the closest you can get really is that you can make sure all of the items come out the same size, put them on a line, and let it wrap. it doesn't look nice, really.
02.32.42 #       <rasher> The tricky bit is making sure it all comes out the same size
02.32.46 #       <rasher> In all browsers.
02.33.27 #       <rasher> I'm not convinced it's worth the trouble, but the code's in SVN...
02.38.37 #       <Unhelpful> it's what now, a table? the table cells become divs with fixed size, and the table and tr enclosing them just go away. the result can pretty easily be kind of awful, though.
02.40.02 #       <rasher> Unhelpful: Indeed. It was apparently tried for the previous theme site code, but they went back to a table
02.40.13 #       <rasher> Because of the awfulness, I bet
02.40.59 #       <Unhelpful> it looks ok if the screen is wide enough for just one row, or narrow enough for *many* rows
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03.03.46 #       <DarkSpectrum> rasher: how would one go about getting someone to help them with artwork when making themes?
03.04.34 #       <qcjn> ok, i'm about to try it on an Sansa e270, but as i understand we can come back, to the Sansa firmware if ! Right ?
03.05.05 #       <krazykit> qcjn, after installing rockbox, you can still boot into the original firmware.
03.05.28 #       <qcjn> ok, thanks, i'm jumping
03.05.30 #       <qcjn> :)
03.05.32 #       <rasher> DarkSpectrum: I'd try the WPS forum, but check the posting guidelines, I'm not quite sure what the rules are there to be honest
03.05.48 #       <DarkSpectrum> k
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03.23.43 #       <Unhelpful> you seem to *have* a decent quantity of artwork? :)
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03.26.09 #       <qcjn> from puppy linux, when i install the bootloader, "says" in home. But can i put it directly in sansa (sdb1) cd /mnt/sdb1  then chmod +x sansapatcher right in sdb1
03.26.56 #       <rasher> Why are you not using Rockbox Utility?
03.27.23 #       <qcjn> felt like making it by hand and see
03.27.23 #       <rasher> But no, you should not have the sansa mounted when running sansapatcher.
03.27.40 #       <qcjn> ok
03.28.22 #       <Unhelpful> also, you can't chmod a file on a fat filesystem :)
03.28.37 #       <qcjn> then what is sansapatcher, an application to update rockbox after
03.29.08 #       <Llorean> sansapatcher just installs a bootloader. It has one embedded in it, or can install a separate bootloader file you specify.
03.29.18 #       <Llorean> It does no updating, does no downloading, and has no ability to install Rockbox itself.
03.30.41 #       <qcjn> i don't understand..i don't see nowhere that we put the bootloader in sansa ? just chmod it to x in home ???
03.31.24 #       <Unhelpful> qcjn: sansapatcher is an application you run on the PC that *installs* a bootloader to the sansa, either one you've downloaded separately, or the one embedded in it.
03.31.37 #       <Llorean> qcjn: sansapatcher is not the bootloader. It's a program that installs it.
03.31.42 #       <qcjn> ok
03.31.49 #       <Llorean> qcjn: It would be good to read the manual
03.32.00 #       <qcjn> that s what i m doing :)
03.32.50 #       <ameyer> If I for some messed up reason wanted the source for 3.1, I'd check out svn://svn.rockbox.org/rockbox/branches/v3_1/ right?
03.33.08 #       <Llorean> qcjn: The manual doesn't tell you to put sansapatcher on the sansa. Why don't you just follow its instructions?
03.33.23 #       <Llorean> ameyer: Something like that, yes. Probably that.
03.35.19 #       <Llorean> ameyer: Any particular reason you want it?
03.36.20 #       <taylor_> Llorean: maybe it runs faster on his device...or some app compatibility issue? Otherwise.. I'd stick with the newer build too.
03.37.10 #       <Llorean> taylor_: I was asking him, because if he's having issues with current builds it would be good to know.
03.37.35 #       <ameyer> one step in an attempt to track down the cause of a recent bug
03.37.40 #       <taylor_> Yeah. Sort of what I meant :)
03.37.53 #       <Llorean> taylor_: Yeah. that's why I asked. And your answer didn't really add anything.
03.37.57 #       <ameyer> fs#10051
03.38.07 #       <taylor_> Rockbox does have a bug tracker, correct ?
03.38.17 #       <Llorean> ameyer: Why start with the release rather than just an SVN revision around that time?
03.38.32 #       <ameyer> *shrug*
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03.40.37 #       <flyback> what is the purpose of the battery on sansa m200 series
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03.40.47 #       <flyback> is that a rechargeable or lithium dispoable
03.40.59 #       <flyback> I know it's probably to do with drm value storage etc
03.41.03 #       <flyback> the micro coin cell
03.41.08 #       <flyback> not a power battery
03.41.14 #       <taylor_> ? rechargeable
03.41.30 #       <flyback> yeah they make lithium rechargeable coin cells
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03.42.35 #       <Llorean> flyback: I don't see what that battery has to do with Rockbox.
03.42.43 #       <flyback> ew
03.43.03 #       <flyback> uh
03.43.12 #       <flyback> so I can get the pos running again so I can eventually put rockbox on it?
03.43.14 #       <flyback> stupid canuck?
03.43.27 #       <Llorean> flyback: Rockbox doesn't run on the m200.
03.43.37 #       <flyback> there is a preliminary port
03.43.40 #       * ameyer didn't know Canada had annexed Texas
03.43.56 #       <flyback> ameyer i'm calling him the LOWEST form of life
03.44.31 #       <taylor_> What the heck?
03.44.48 #       <Llorean> flyback: I just asked what it had to do with Rockbox. Stay on-topic. You could've simply answered.
03.44.54 #       <Llorean> Please, stay on topic
03.45.09 #       <flyback> is it on topic you guys know more about the low level hw
03.45.27 #       <Llorean> flyback: I'd suggest reading the wiki page for the hardware.
03.45.38 #       <flyback> I have many times
03.45.47 #       <Llorean> That contains all our collected knowledge.
03.45.52 #       <Llorean> If it's not there, it's not likely someone knows.
03.46.08 #       <qcjn> building database...554 found (previous to return) <==must i wait because it ,s building it ?
03.46.37 #       <Llorean> flyback: You could also ask in the forum if anyone's determined its purpose yet. As I said, it's not a supported target. only a few people are at all familiar with the hardware.
03.46.52 #       <flyback> well it doesn't matter much anyways
03.46.57 #       <flyback> I slammed it on the ground today :)
03.47.04 #       <taylor_> ?
03.47.10 #       <flyback> it was half dead and dying
03.47.12 #       <Llorean> flyback: That's off-topic and irrelevant in here.
03.47.13 #       <flyback> mercy kill
03.47.14 #       <taylor_> then its pretty much useless :)
03.47.21 #       <flyback> taylor_,  unless I fix it
03.47.26 #       <flyback> I have a tendency to do these things :)
03.47.36 #       <taylor_> yep
03.47.36 Mode    "#rockbox +o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
03.47.47 #       <flyback> Llorean,  go fuck yourself
03.47.48 #       <flyback> seriously
03.47.50 #       <Llorean> I repeat, we don't need random stories.
03.47.55 #       <flyback> I am going to do before I care
03.47.55 #       <taylor_> WOAH!
03.47.56 #       <flyback> bye
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03.48.07 #       <flyback> i'm half dead
03.48.08 #       <flyback> so fuck you
03.48.12 #       <flyback> nature beat you
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03.48.40 #       <taylor_> Ok, that was interesting. Back on topic.... :)
03.48.43 Mode    "#rockbox -o Llorean " by ChanServ (ChanServ@services.)
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04.03.54 #       <taylor_> Alright, g2g. See everyone tomorrow!
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04.06.05 #       * ameyer wonders how something like fs#10051 goes unreported for (at least) almost 2 months
04.06.21 #       <Llorean> ameyer: Does it happen on your iPod?
04.06.27 #       <Llorean> Or are you the reporter
04.06.45 #       <rasher> I'm pretty sure this was reported.
04.06.56 #       <Llorean> rasher: it's been reported in the past.
04.07.06 #       <Llorean> Evidence seems to suggest it's some sort of hardware-dependent issue.
04.07.48 #       <ameyer> Llorean: happens on my iPod.  Broke somewhere between r19800 and r19900
04.08.14 #       <ameyer> I think
04.09.10 #       <Llorean> Still narrowing it down, then?
04.09.22 #       <ameyer> yeah
04.11.45 #       <Unhelpful> 100 revs is only ~7 rounds of binary search :)
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04.14.28 #       <ameyer> looking at the changelog, I'm guessing r19864 or r19865
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04.15.54 #       <Llorean> ameyer: Based on what exactly?
04.16.20 #       <Llorean> 19864 should be nonfunctional, and 865 is changes for another target.
04.17.14 #       <Unhelpful> or you could binsearch, and have an answer in seven or eight builds
04.17.21 #       <qcjn> i can't get to no music, so i stopped it and wen't to look to be sure that there is music in there. But there are weird files "i took my daughter's Sansa, wonder if it s not infected or what " http://imagebin.ca/view/PrpJdt.html
04.17.57 #       <Llorean> qcjn: Have you read the SansaFAQ in the wiki, not just the manual?
04.18.20 #       <qcjn> no, i ll go there
04.18.38 #       <Llorean> The MUSIC folder is usually hidden by the original firmware.
04.18.53 #       <Llorean> As to the odd files, the Sansa can't be infected so either the disk is corrupt or your computer is having issues.
04.19.51 #       <qcjn> ok, so what the music folder i see ?
04.20.35 #       <Llorean> I don't know what you mean.
04.21.09 #       <qcjn> i've linked an image
04.21.21 #       <qcjn> i see all files
04.21.32 #       <Llorean> I've seen the image.
04.21.36 #       <Llorean> Could you ask a more specific question?
04.22.09 #       <qcjn> i m trying...the database started, it doesn't seems to see no music
04.22.26 #       <Llorean> I thought you said *you* couldn't find the music.
04.22.28 #       <qcjn> so i replug the sansa to be sure that there is in it
04.22.31 #       <Llorean> As in, in the file browser.
04.22.56 #       <Llorean> Have you allowed the database to finish scanning, and then properly shut down and restarted the player?
04.23.01 #       <qcjn> and there is, as you can see on the image
04.23.34 #       <qcjn> it said that we can go back and start to listen to music, while it s finishing
04.25.09 #       <Llorean> Yes, if you access it via the file browser.
04.25.12 #       <qcjn> 4.2.2
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04.26.15 #       <Llorean> qcjn: As I said, you need to access it via the file browser if the database has not finished scanning yet.
04.26.49 #       <gletob> Does anyone here know anything about the Sansa C250 v2 (no AMS)?
04.27.00 #       <qcjn> in the file browser there is photo, record, video,...but no music
04.27.13 #       <Llorean> qcjn: As i said, the folder is by default hidden.
04.27.26 #       <Llorean> gletob: What do you mean "no AMS"?
04.27.36 #       <Llorean> The second version of the hardware is the AMS version.
04.28.19 #       <gletob> Llorean: I thought there had to be a chip that said AMS on it
04.28.28 #       <qcjn> so i can i acces music then, got to wait that the database is finished ??
04.28.37 #       <Llorean> qcjn: What?
04.28.44 #       <Llorean> You can access your music, you just have to browse to it.
04.28.48 #       <Llorean> In the file browser.
04.29.08 #       <qcjn> but there are no music there
04.29.19 #       <Llorean> It's hidden
04.29.21 #       <Llorean> You need to show all files.
04.29.26 #       <Llorean> This is described in the SansaFAQ.
04.29.32 #       <Llorean> And how to turn on showing all files is also in the manual.
04.29.32 #       <qcjn> ok, where
04.29.41 #       <qcjn> ok
04.29.59 #       <Llorean> qcjn: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/SansaFAQ#Where_are_my_music_files_and_the
04.31.34 #       <qcjn> ok
04.31.41 #       <gletob> Llorean: Are you sure I can't install?  The main page used to say no V2 now it says no AMS and I've got my C250 open and there are no chips with AMS on them.
04.31.41 #       <qcjn> thanks
04.32.06 #       <Llorean> gletob: The V2 and the AMS are the same thing.
04.32.16 #       <Llorean> gletob: We changed the name to clarify. You don't need to open it up to determine if it's AMS or not
04.32.20 #       <Llorean> What's the firmware version?
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04.32.51 #       <gletob> I have no idea (busted screen) other than it begins with 3.
04.33.44 #       <Llorean> Then it's a V2 sansa and is not yet supported.
04.34.35 #       <gletob> Any idea on how the support is coming?  Would I be able to use it without a screen?
04.35.38 #       <Llorean> there's a forum thread on it.
04.35.51 #       <Llorean> When it's reliable enough to actually use regularly, it should become supported and added to the list.
04.36.15 #       <gletob> You mean this one: http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=14064.30
04.36.19 #       <saratoga> better yet theres a wiki linked from the front page
04.36.33 #       <saratoga> the forum thread is not a great place to get information because its so long
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05.11.19 #       <Unhelpful> hrm, the scroller on H10 is explecitly vertical, but it's also the only "truly" directional button set, from what i can tell... should i be using it for the PF album list, or use the left/right even though they don't really look very much like they're meant for use as directional buttons?
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07.26.44 #       <pixelma> rasher: (not sure it's that important to warrant an answer in the ml) marquee and zezeyer both have a 160x128x1 in their name which means that they are included for all targets with a 160x128 display, starting with the M:Robe100 then the ones you listed (+ M5) and also the colour displays of the X5 and big H10
07.33.50 #       <ameyer> speaking of the theme site, are there plans to migrate stuff over from the wiki?
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07.38.47 #       <linuxstb> ameyer: We want the original authors to upload the themes to the theme site.  But after a few weeks/months, if there are some left in the wps gallery, we'll probably want to upload them ourselves.
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08.13.51 #       <wangxiang> Hi, I have sent my application of gsoc, what else should I do ? Thanks!
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08.16.35 #       <linuxstb> wangxiang: You should keep checking your application, and reply to any comments/questions that people post there.
08.18.15 #       <wangxiang> ok, thanks
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08.42.40 #       <bs66_1> is it safe to install 3.2 on an ipod video 5.5. i dont understand the talk about usb problems in 3.2. what's all that about?
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08.44.04 #       <ameyer> the usb problem isn't in 3.2.
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08.45.00 #       <ameyer> The USB stack on certain portalplayer targets has some bugs that need to be worked out, so the usb stack is disabled on those targets in 3.2.
08.47.18 #       <bs66_1> ok. sounds like its safe for me to install 3.2 on my device. thanks alot! rockbox rox.
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09.17.07 #       <wangxiang> hi Dave, I have seen your reply
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09.20.07 #       <wangxiang> it will take some time to anwser your questions, and I need some time to fully understand the framework of rockbox
09.27.47 #       <linuxstb> wangxiang: OK.  I think you have another week to finalise your application (until 3rd April).
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10.03.13 #       <DrMon[a]> Anybody have any idea how capable is new P3 Hardware is?
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10.05.58 #       <B4gder> not capable of running Rockbox atm at least
10.07.16 #       <DrMon[a]> Heh, I'd say that's a software issue more then a hardware issue
10.09.02 #       <B4gder> well, that's a question of definition
10.10.56 #       <DrMon[a]> Depends on what your definitin of "is" is
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10.11.45 #       <B4gder> no
10.12.17 #       <DrMon[a]> Heh - that was a Bill Clinton joke - nvm :)
10.20.42 #       <DrMon[a]> Heh, I see what you mean though. If the hardware is too tricky to write for then I guess you could also call that a hardware issue
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13.29.22 #       <funman> I wonder if I should mention rockbox when requesting AS3530 & AS3536 datasheets from AMS
13.30.09 #       <B4gder> funman: do that, and if you want to you can mention that I've been in contact with them before and they've responded nicely
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13.33.06 #       <funman> https://shop.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Mobile-Entertainment/(line_view)/0/ : could be as3530 as3531 or as3536
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13.37.20 #       <funman> http://pastebin.ca/1371572 < the message for AMS. do you have remarks ?
13.39.21 #       <LambdaCalculus37> funman: Looks good so far. I'll help correct some of the English in it.
13.39.55 #       <B4gder> http://pastebin.ca/1371572 my update
13.40.11 #       <B4gder> http://pastebin.ca/1371574 even
13.41.51 #       <LambdaCalculus37> http://pastebin.ca/1371575 My update.
13.43.36 #       <funman> http://pastebin.ca/1371580 my update :)
13.43.40 #       <LambdaCalculus37> B4gder: Maybe we should merge both of our changes into one?
13.43.46 #       <B4gder> yes I think so
13.44.12 #       <B4gder> I changed the wording somewhat since I've been in touch with them multiple times, and to phrase the agreement slightly different
13.44.41 #       <LambdaCalculus37> Good idea.
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13.51.56 #       <funman> http://www.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/content/view/full/14666 < as3525 datasheet isn't available anymore ?!
13.53.16 #       <B4gder> !
13.53.34 #       <markun> but we have a copy?
13.54.12 #       <funman> LambdaCalculus37:  B4gder http://pastebin.ca/1371588
13.54.22 #       <funman> markun: yes, the one they gave to B4gder some time ago
13.54.57 #       <funman> https://shop.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/content/download/16763/295720/file/AS3525_Datasheet_v1_13.pdf/1814 < it's here
13.54.58 #       <n1s> funman: how about this http://www.austriamicrosystems.com/eng/Products/Mobile-Entertainment/High-Performance-Microcontrollers/AS3525/AS3525_Datasheet_v1_13 ?
13.55.10 #       <n1s> ah, /me is too slow
13.55.32 #       <funman> :)
13.56.01 #       <B4gder> ah, it's an updated one
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14.04.29 #       <funman> I hit submit. Now I hope they will not ignore me !
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14.47.08 #       <ZyL0R> Hi
14.53.46 #       <linuxstb> hi
14.54.14 #       <n1s> ho?
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15.37.48 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: I'm the 'MIPS' guy
15.43.12 #       <LambdaCalculus37> Just to refresh my mind... the exploit we used to load custom code on the Gigabeast was a digital signature exploit, correct?
15.44.37 #       * LambdaCalculus37 wants to look for something similar in the Gigabeat T firmware
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15.46.00 #       <saratoga_chrome> its probably still there since the firmwares look so similar and were released at the same time, but without anyway to unbrick its pretty risky to try
15.47.15 #       <LambdaCalculus37> saratoga_chrome: Not unless we can get a couple of extra T's with some Rockbox fund money, so we can risk it if one bricks.
15.48.34 #       <n1s> LambdaCalculus37: yeah, it's some kind of way to circumvent the sig check
15.48.50 #       <LambdaCalculus37> n1s: Just like the beast?
15.49.22 #       <n1s> what we do on the beast i meant, i have no idea if the same thing can be done on other players
15.50.57 #       <LambdaCalculus37> I know Microsoft plugged up that method of circumventing the sig check on the Zune. Maybe Toshiba didn't fix it themselves for the T?
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15.53.28 #       <saratoga_chrome> we really need to fix the IRC script formating bug
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16.26.13 #       <thresh> !seen funman
16.26.18 #       <thresh> too bad. :(
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16.28.52 #>>     "seen" used by Zagor (n=bjorn@rockbox/developer/Zagor) [snoop prevented]
16.29.36 #       <thresh> bah, thank you
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16.52.48 #       <Nico_P> Bagder: what do you think of adding a news item for the themes site?
16.53.56 #       <rasher> DarkSpectrum: Sorry about the backslashes in your descriptions on the theme site, fixed now.
16.54.19 #       <rasher> pixelma: Ah okay. I still don't think it'd be the end of the world to drop them
16.55.15 #       <Nico_P> rasher: wouldn't it be more "user friendly" to display the target's name as title instead of the screen size? (e.g. "Themes for the Gigabeat S")
16.56.06 #       <rasher> Nico_P: I'm not sure why I didn't do that. Give me a few minutes
16.56.21 #       <gevaerts> target name*s* I expect
16.56.41 #       <Nico_P> gevaerts: the user selects on target
16.56.44 #       <rasher> gevaerts: doesn't have to be, the user has select the target
16.56.48 #       <Nico_P> s/on/one
16.57.01 #       <gevaerts> ah yes
16.57.17 #       <rasher> We need to figure out what to do about colour depth though
16.57.48 #       <rasher> Right now it's completely ignored, since afaik, greyscale targets can use colour themes and be lucky that it looks ok?
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16.59.11 #       <pyro_maniac1> kugel: ping
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17.03.41 #       <saratoga_chrome> Bagder:  ping
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17.09.29 #       <rasher> Nico_P: Done.
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17.18.13 #       <rasher> Any other committer who wants to be an admin on the theme site, pm me to get access
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17.20.38 #       <jaykay_> would it make sense to optimize the build-server-system, e.g. dont make a build when the commit only changed a comment or whitspace, only make builds for affected players, only make voice-files if english.lang changed...
17.21.29 #       <rasher> Would be stupendously complicated to get right, and why? The system works.
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17.23.11 #       <jaykay_> rasher: maybe the examples with comments or affected players are not worth the effort...
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17.24.04 #       <jaykay_> but i noted that the last daily build is r20528
17.24.12 #       <jaykay_> this change was for the theme-site
17.24.42 #       <jaykay_> and the voice-files should be easy too
17.24.51 #       <jaykay_> but ok, "never touch a running system"
17.25.07 #       <rasher> It doesn't actually gain us anything though
17.25.55 #       <rasher> jaykay_: Commits to the theme site don't trigger a build.
17.26.11 #       <BigBambi> jaykay_: It already doesn't do a build if e.g. only the manual is changed.  I'd imagine the same is for theme site.  These are easy to do, as they are in different directories in the source and it is easy to say only build if there is a change in certain directories
17.26.48 #       <BigBambi> jaykay_: To go more complex than that would add a *huge* amount of complexity to an already complex system for absolutley *minute* gain
17.27.17 #       <jaykay_> rasher: why the last daily build from r20528?
17.27.36 #       <BigBambi> jaykay_: Daily or current?
17.27.47 #       <jaykay_> daily
17.27.49 #       <rasher> jaykay_: The daily build gets built at midnight.
17.28.01 #       <BigBambi> jaykay_: daily is just built at the same time every day
17.28.14 #       <BigBambi> rasher: Isn't it about 6am GMT :)
17.28.24 #       <rasher> That's midnight too, somewhere.
17.28.38 #       <BigBambi> :)
17.28.44 #       <jaykay_> the daily build is really built? i thought the system would just take the latest available current build
17.28.59 #       <rasher> No.
17.29.30 #       <rasher> The daily build isn't built by the distributed system afaik.
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17.31.58 #       <jaykay> rasher: by what then?
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17.32.17 #       <rasher> By the main build server.
17.32.32 #       <jaykay> and does todays irc-log work for someone here? here it doesn't
17.32.39 #       <jaykay> ok, thanks
17.33.02 #       <rasher> jaykay: use the text-only version.
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17.33.47 #       <jaykay> that works, thanks
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18.56.34 #       <jaykay_> could someone look through http://pastebin.com/m2ccab354 and give it a meaningful name?
18.56.47 #       <jaykay_> it should be a bug report for fs, im failing to give it a name
18.58.23 #       <linuxstb> jaykay_: I don't really understand it...  How many lines are displayed on your screen (in general, with your chosen font) ?
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19.01.36 #       <jaykay> linuxstb: in the parent directory 11directories, from which the important one is the last
19.01.48 #       <jaykay> in the last directory, 23 directories
19.02.03 #       <jaykay> i scrolled down, went back to the parent one
19.02.21 #       <jaykay> and then only the last 5 items were shown
19.02.37 #       <jaykay> well, actually it were 11 directories and one file
19.03.03 #       <linuxstb> jaykay: No, I mean what is the maximum number of lines you can view on your LCD?
19.03.57 #       <jaykay> 16+the top one with the name of the directory... i use cabbiev2 with an e200
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19.05.30 #       <Amir_2> Hi there
19.05.58 #       <Amir_2> Is there any ear training software for the rockbox?
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19.06.31 #       <jaykay> Amir_2: no
19.06.39 #       <Amir_2> too bad
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19.13.47 #       <jaykay_> linuxstb: did you understand it now?
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19.15.54 #       <rasher> ZyL0R: Please turn that off.
19.15.54 #       <gevaerts> ZyL0R: please disable that
19.16.03 #       <ZyL0R> sorry
19.16.08 #       <ZyL0R> my bad
19.16.09 #       <ZyL0R> ;)
19.16.37 #       <ZyL0R> done
19.16.38 #       <ZyL0R> :P
19.17.33 #       <saratoga> don't use enter as punctation either
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19.23.01 #       <pixelma> rasher: colour depth is not easy - a colour theme can work on greyscale if it doesn't use custom colours in the viewport definitions (or no vp), it can even work on monochrome if it doesn't use viewports, WPS backdrop or album art. How well it graphics will look is another question...
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19.25.09 #       <pixelma> maybe you could add an explanation on the pages for e.g. 160x128 monochrome or greyscale with a hint that people can look on the other pages too and try themes but should expect themes not work that use one of those mentioned things?
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20.07.30 #       <linuxstb> Bagder: Are you able to fill in this page?  http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyRealNames  (it is linked from the upload form on the themes site, but could perhaps be used elsewhere, such as the wiki registration page).
20.08.14 #       <Bagder> I'll give it a shot later tonight
20.08.27 #       <BigBambi> rasher: Does the RSS feed update for the themes site get sent before the submitter has confirmed the e-mail?
20.08.36 #       <rasher> BigBambi: It shouldn't
20.08.51 #       <rasher> BigBambi: It uses the same query as the actual list
20.09.02 #       <BigBambi> rasher: er, don't worry - I'm a muppet
20.09.05 #       <linuxstb> Bagder: Thanks.  I started it, but then couldn't actually think of anything to write...
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21.01.11 #       <BdN3504> hey, i just received an e-mail that my port of the free-state wps for the gigabeat f was taken down because "the original was licensed under the CreativeCommons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License"
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21.02.57 #       <BdN3504>  Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported License is the license we have to choose, right? why do we have to allow commercial use of rockbox? this is all open source-freeware, we don't want to sell out do we?
21.03.49 #       <scorche|sh> it isnt about selling out...it is about the noncommercial license being less free
21.03.58 #       <BigBambi> We don't want to restrict who can use it
21.04.18 #       <JdGordon|> either way you restrict people
21.04.28 #       <rasher> BdN3504: The GPL allows selling, so we picked a theme license that has the same philosophy
21.05.02 #       <BigBambi> JdGordon|: Well OK, but you know what I meant :)
21.05.04 #       <rasher> JdGordon|: who is restricted by allowing commercial use?
21.05.41 #       <BdN3504> but what do corporations do for us? i mean most of the information they gave out was either unhelpful info, stuff we already knew or they wanted to charge us or they did not cooperate at all
21.06.04 #       <BigBambi> This isn't a revenge thing
21.06.20 #       <scorche|sh> noncommercial doesnt just limit corporations..
21.07.03 #       <BdN3504> hm so i have to contact the author of the original theme and ask him if it is ok to put his work under another license?
21.07.14 #       <BigBambi> yes
21.07.20 #       <BdN3504> or does he have to republish it under the new license?
21.07.24 #       <scorche|sh> yup...or make a similar version through all your own work
21.07.41 #       <BigBambi> And next time please don't try to licence a theme in a certain way when you can't
21.08.31 #       <BdN3504> i'm sorry, i did not think about the licensing issues, because i have already uploaded this theme to the wiki and nobody took it offline
21.08.59 #       <BigBambi> BdN3504: You specifically agreed to a specific licence when you uploaded it
21.09.25 #       <BdN3504> yes, i know i just missed out on the nc, please don't get mad
21.09.52 #       <BigBambi> I'm not mad at all, I'm just saying double check next time :)
21.10.31 #       <BdN3504> ps i just uploaded the h10 version, that's when i saw your e-mail, so you might want to take that one down too
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21.10.47 #       <taylor_> BdN3504: You made a common mistake, its not that bad though :) Just make sure you double check your work next time! ;)
21.10.49 #       <rasher> BdN3504: The theme has just been hidden for now, so if you get an ok from the original author, notify a themesite admin and it can be re-approved without having to uploda it again
21.10.58 #       <BigBambi> OK, cheers
21.11.14 #       <BigBambi> BdN3504: We are aware that licencing can be a bit tricky :)
21.13.04 #       <BXCracer> Hello. I wonder if it's safe to upgrade to *.32 firmware on my v1 clip ? Is it compatible with any rockbox release available? Won't it break any future compatibility ?
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21.13.26 #       <BigBambi> There is no rockbox release for the clip
21.14.05 #       <BXCracer> BigBambi: I'am talking about testing versions
21.14.23 #       <BigBambi> There are no testing versions
21.14.49 #       <BigBambi> Rockbox is being developed for the clip, and there is code in SVN, but it isn't suitable for non-developers
21.15.08 #       <rasher> BdN3504: You'll get another mail.
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21.15.54 #       <BXCracer> BigBambi : Well i understand that, but the question was will it break the compatibility with the existing conde in SVN, or any future releases
21.16.43 #       <BigBambi> BXCracer: In that case I very much doubt it, but am not sure
21.16.52 #       <gevaerts> BdN3504: noncommercial isn't just against "corporations", but also e.g. against people who install rockbox for a small fee. They wouldn't be allowed to install that theme
21.17.00 #       <BigBambi> BXCracer: Hang around and someone that knows will hopefully answer eventually
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21.17.19 #       <BXCracer> BigBambi: OK thanks.
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21.19.37 #       <rasher> BXCracer: checksum for 1.01.32 was added to mkamsboot and marked as verified to work
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21.20.13 #       <BXCracer> rasher: In other words it means that I am safe to update ?
21.20.21 #       <BdN3504> who is a theme site admin? could you provide an e-mail address or something or shall i just send it to http://www.rockbox.org/mail/
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21.21.21 #       <rasher> BdN3504: I am, for one
21.22.05 #       <BdN3504> ok
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21.22.37 #       <pixelma> BdN3504: looked for the wiki name page of the author?
21.23.25 #       <pixelma> (assuming you are talking about the author of the free state theme)
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21.26.43 #       <BdN3504> <pixelma> right
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21.27.08 #       <justin550> oooh irc
21.27.56 #       <justin550> how come the main stream players are not supported. :(
21.28.08 #       <taylor_> ?
21.28.15 #       <taylor_> which brand?
21.28.16 #       <BdN3504> what do you mean by main stream?
21.28.20 #       <gevaerts> justin550: because you haven't ported rockbox to them
21.28.22 #       <justin550> zune ipod touch, ipod classic.
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21.28.56 #       <justin550> i c
21.29.00 #       <taylor_> Rockbox isn't supported by those
21.29.01 #       <SliMM> hello
21.29.08 #       <BdN3504> the ipod classic hasn't been ported, because the firmware encryption isn't cracked yet
21.29.15 #       <taylor_> Yeah it is
21.29.21 #       <justin550> damn apple
21.29.22 #       <evilnick> taylor_: It is?
21.29.24 #       <taylor_> Its been cracked for a while now
21.29.28 #       <BdN3504> really?
21.29.32 #       <taylor_> evilnick: at least  the old ones
21.29.33 #       <evilnick> taylor_: It has?
21.29.37 #       <BdN3504> pics or it didn't happen
21.29.45 #       <justin550> i have the 6g classic
21.29.48 #       <taylor_> Linux has been ported
21.29.55 #       <taylor_> Ok, let me post the link
21.30.03 #       <SliMM> why does apple claim that ipod shuffle is "the first player that talks to you"?
21.30.08 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: The Classic is the 6G, not any others
21.30.08 #       <evilnick> taylor_: The 6th gen is the 1st iPod Classic
21.30.32 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: And as you may have noticed Rockbox runs on the older ipods
21.30.40 #       <taylor_> BigBambi: AH, I thought they were speaking of the itouch
21.30.46 #       <BigBambi> SliMM: Have to aks them that
21.31.08 #       <taylor_> SliMM: AFAIK it is?
21.31.17 #       <gevaerts> taylor_: please read what people say before replying...
21.31.25 #       <gevaerts> taylor_: and no, it isn't
21.31.27 #       <SliMM> BigBambi: I was just outraged, since I have had a talking iPod for more than three years now
21.31.33 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: Apart from all the Rockbox players
21.31.39 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: Rockbox has had a voice interface for years
21.31.48 #       <SliMM> BigBambi: that's my point
21.31.50 #       <BdN3504> on we move to the next target: the ipod touch might soon be supported, when rockbox is ready to be run as an application
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21.31.52 #       <BigBambi> SliMM: Yeah, I know :/
21.31.57 #       <SliMM> bloody bastards
21.32.05 #       <taylor_> Well, RockBox, yes, Im talking about OFW
21.32.09 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: is find_first_set_bit for MIPS going to return the correct value when the input is 0 (32)? I ready clz returns 32 when no bits are set and so 31-32 = -1
21.32.14 #       <justin550> but no plans for the classic?
21.32.25 #       <taylor_> justin550: nope, its encrypted
21.32.26 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: If you are going to talk in here, please make sure that you know what you are talking about first
21.32.30 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: I'll try it
21.32.36 #       <justin550> hmm.
21.32.46 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: So?  Why does that matter?  It isn't the first.  The software it is running is irrelevant
21.32.48 #       <pixelma> also, ports are not planned
21.32.50 #       <justin550> what about the zune?
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21.33.11 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: I tried my hand at a patch (trying to learn MIPS) but I have no MIPS target. :)
21.33.22 #       <BigBambi> justin550: Ports aren't planned, they are done by interested owners
21.33.24 #       <taylor_> BigBambi: Rockbox, yes. Official firmware, no. So technically Apple is right, but not really.
21.33.51 #       <BigBambi> jhMikeS: Stop it!  There is still beast stuff for you to do! :P
21.33.51 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: No, they aren't
21.33.55 #       <evilnick> justin550: The Zune is similar to the Gigabeat S, but they fixed the security hole that allowed Rockbox to run on that target. Unfortunately.
21.34.15 #       * BigBambi wonders why whenever he speaks to taylor_ it is akin to banging his head against the wall
21.34.15 #       <taylor_> I guess they mean, the first mp3 player that you can just pick off the shelf, and just talk to you without modifying.
21.34.24 #       <justin550> doh
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21.34.35 #       <jhMikeS> BigBambi: Nothings stopping there! Power management is what I'm doing now since obviously there's a problem.
21.34.35 #       <justin550> makes me dislike my classic
21.34.45 #       <justin550> id like a different ui on it
21.35.37 #       <BigBambi> jhMikeS: Excellent news :)
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21.35.53 #       <taylor_> justin550: they join linux4nano and help crack it ;)
21.35.56 #       <taylor_> *then
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21.36.29 #       <justin550> im a *lix guru, not a coder.
21.36.29 #       <BdN3504> speaking of new ports: i have a disassembled (physically) smtp 3660 device here and i am not able to connect it to my winxp machine in any other way than mtp mode. is there any hidden combination that makes an smtp device connect as msc?
21.36.46 #       <justin550> to me craqcking involves a hammer :)
21.37.07 #       <bluebrother> what is an smtp device? I only know about smtp in conjunction with email
21.37.07 #       <BigBambi> justin550: Let's stay on topic please :)
21.37.39 #       <BdN3504> oops typo i mean tmp
21.37.46 #       <BdN3504> stmp sigmatel
21.37.46 #       <taylor_> justin550: i know, I was jk. We haven't had much luck *yet*. I nice hardware guru would be nice to join the team. Anyways, back to topic.
21.37.57 #       <taylor_> *A nice
21.38.39 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: I don't know how many times people have said, but off topic is off topic, no matter how short.  Stay on topic, or say nothing
21.39.13 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: you're right, it returns -1
21.39.34 #       <justin550> is the topic set? this web client doesnt show it.
21.39.38 #       <bluebrother> ah :)
21.39.41 #       <taylor_> BigBambi: I'm trying to explain _why_ we haven't hacked it yet.
21.40.01 #       <BigBambi> justin550: Yup, Rockbox support and development only
21.40.02 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: I had this patch which also takes advantage of delay slots: http://jhmikes.cleansoap.org/mips-find-first-set-bit.diff
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21.40.27 #       <jhMikeS> I'm not sure its correct...just took a guess
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21.41.56 #       <BdN3504> shall i keep anything in mind, when i create a wiki page? i want to upload some pcb scans, maybe somebody would be interested in copperating with me to get a new port going...
21.42.13 #       <BdN3504> cooperating
21.42.27 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: now it returns 0x8040ACB8
21.42.36 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm that looks like a memory address
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21.45.17 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: It doesn't run the instruction in the delay slot if the branch is skipped?
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21.46.27 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: you mean the clz instruction after the beqz instruction?
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21.48.24 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm If a conditional branch likely is not taken, the instruction in the delay slot is nullified.
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21.49.31 #       <mcuelenaere> oh never mind, beqz isn't a likely instruction
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21.50.15 #       <casainho> hello :-)
21.50.24 #       <jhMikeS> The rather vague MIPS32 reference I  found said those "l" instructions are deprecated
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21.50.57 #       <casainho> I would like to make a show video, for promotion, of Lyre project, however I can't use the Cabie V2 theme, does anyone know why?
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21.51.35 #       <evilnick> Why can't you use it? Does it load?
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21.52.31 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: http://www.usrmodem.ru/files/adsl/mips.pdf is an older version of the one I use
21.53.18 #       <casainho> evilnick: no, on playing screen it do not loads... and I just build the firmawa
21.53.34 #       <casainho> rockboxed themcely
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21.55.42 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: thanks
21.57.04 #       <pixelma> casainho: you mean that the Rockboxed theme works nicely? Does iCatcher work?
21.57.31 #       <rasher> casainho: does your target define HAVE_ALBUM_ART?
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22.00.28 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: is something like this ( http://pastebin.com/d62757b18 ) what you wanted to achieve?
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22.04.20 #       <rasher> http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php?topic=21070.msg147385#msg147385 <-- If someone is really bored
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22.05.01 #       <casainho> hello again :-)
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22.05.42 #       <casainho> I am trying to make a promotional video for Lyre project, and it can't use the Cabie V2 theme on playing screen... I would like to use that theme. Can someone help me?
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22.06.20 #       <rasher> casainho: Which version of cabbie v2 are you using? Does your target define HAVE_ALBUM_ART?
22.06.31 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: now I'm confused. :) I thought the clz would be executed on t0==0 before the branch was taken and thus it would already have v0=32
22.06.39 #       <rasher> casainho: what happens if you try to load cabbiev2?
22.07.01 #       <casainho> rasher: I am using the last SVN version.
22.07.53 #       <casainho> rasher: please see the short video on this page to understand the problem: http://www.rockbox.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LyreProject
22.08.00 #       <rasher> casainho: cabbiev2 includes 15 wps files. Which are you using?
22.08.44 #       <jhMikeS> I guess the li can go where the nop is though :)
22.09.22 #       <casainho> rasher: well, I just select Cabie on Themes and happens that on playing screen. If I select the rockboxed theme all is ok.
22.09.39 #       <rasher> casainho: what size is your lcd?
22.09.45 #       <casainho> rasher: 128x128
22.10.27 #       <casainho> rasher: as you can see on that video, Cabie V2 seems to work correctly in menus but just not on playing screen
22.10.45 #       <rasher> casainho: which video are you talking about, and when in that video
22.11.00 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: I have this now, which seem to work: http://pastebin.com/d311129ac
22.11.07 #       <pixelma> casainho: maybe answer the HAVE_ALBUM_ART question?
22.11.23 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: I had the same problem on the Onda, HAVE_ALBUM_ART fixed it..
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22.12.28 #       <casainho> no, I don't have HAVE_ALBUM_ART defined
22.12.37 #       <rasher> Do that.
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22.13.04 #       * pixelma dislikes having to watch videos for a "bug report"
22.13.34 #       <casainho> ok, I will :-) -- thanks everyone :-)
22.13.56 #       <casainho> pixelma: eheh :-)
22.14.36 #       <pixelma> that was not a joke
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22.18.11 #       <casainho> pixelma: well, that video was already done and I am bad at explain, because of my bad english language..
22.18.15 #       <casainho> ok.
22.19.56 #       <bluebrother> trying to explain will usually help improving your english so why not take it as opportunity? ;-)
22.21.41 #       * jhMikeS more confused : 2.7- The branch delay means that the instruction immediately following a branch is always executed, regardless of the branch direction.
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22.22.46 #       <mcuelenaere> yeah, it isn't clear what's going on
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22.25.57 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm now /me is even more confused
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22.26.11 #       <mcuelenaere> http://pastebin.com/d42bd2022 works too
22.26.20 #       <Schnueff> that would be the usual delay slot behavior, wouldn't it?
22.27.39 #       <Schnueff> (i mean the part with "always executed"
22.27.40 #       <Schnueff> )
22.27.45 #       <jhMikeS> Schnueff: On SH it works that way consitently
22.28.51 #       <mcuelenaere> what is http://pastebin.com/d4647b7ad supposed to output?
22.29.18 #       <jaykay> second try: could someone look through http://pastebin.com/m2ccab354 and find a meaningful name for it? maybe also a category?
22.29.22 #       <mcuelenaere> the left part going from 0 to 1<<31 and the right part going from 0x20 -> 0?
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22.30.42 #       <jhMikeS> d42bd2022 works (there's no branch at all)? Isn't that just like the original but with the sub in the delay slot instead?
22.31.54 #       <mcuelenaere> yes, that's what wondering me
22.32.04 #       <casainho> rasher: mcuelenaere , I added "#define HAVE_ALBUM_ART" to config file but I got the same results as before...
22.32.18 #       <mcuelenaere> http://pastebin.com/d770189e3 seems to work too (the same except for the 1: part removed)
22.32.19 #       <jhMikeS> shouldn't it be for (i = 0; i <=32; i++) { ...1 << i... }
22.32.52 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: try in the simulator and look what errors it outputs
22.32.56 #       <mcuelenaere> or enable logf/DEBUGF/..
22.33.11 #       <Nico_P> Bagder: ping
22.33.20 #       <jhMikeS> the input to ffs is never 0 in your test if I read that correctly
22.33.21 #       <rasher> Or build checkwps for your target
22.33.46 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: the first line: printf("0x%08x %0x04x", 0, find_first_set_bit(0));
22.33.48 #       <jhMikeS> woops, nvm, missed the first line (hidden)
22.33.55 #       <Bagder> Nico_P: you called sir?
22.34.04 #       <mcuelenaere> except it should read 0x%04x :)
22.34.21 #       <Nico_P> Bagder: yes :) would you agree to svn update the webserver?
22.34.37 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: indeed :)
22.34.37 #       <mcuelenaere> and 1<<32 gives me 1 which is the same output as 1
22.34.43 #       <mcuelenaere> so I don't think it needs to be i<=32
22.34.45 #       <Bagder> Zagor: you mind doing that?
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22.35.01 #       <Zagor> ko
22.35.02 #       <Zagor> ok
22.35.18 #       <Zagor> done
22.35.23 #       <jhMikeS> 1 << 32 = 1?
22.37.07 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: I don't see the need to PM me?
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22.37.37 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: ok. can you please explain in more details what should I do?
22.37.42 #       <Nico_P> rasher: what is http://themes.rockbox.org/rss.php supposed to display? I got one theme then nothing
22.37.54 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: have you tried doing what I said before?
22.38.14 #       <EternalRains> I don't see anything on that feed.
22.38.20 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: simulator? I don't know how to do that... never used a simulator
22.38.21 #       <rasher> Nico_P: All themes. I'm not sure what's wrong. The source looks correct-ish
22.38.33 #       <rasher> If someone can spot the flaw, please say
22.38.59 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: you can choose it in tools/configure
22.39.17 #       <rasher> ah, got it (I think)
22.39.25 #       <Chesteta> hey, I was applying a patch and I noticed the output said "Hunk #1 succeeded at 8 with fuzz 1"... what does the "fuzz" mean? the patch was the latest sd-banks.diff, Fs#10053
22.39.40 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: ok, I will do it now
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22.41.43 #       <BigBambi> Chesteta: It means that the section that was patched was slightly offset from where the patch said it was, but it found it and patched it correctly anyway
22.41.56 #       <Chesteta> oh ok; good to know, thank you
22.42.36 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: sorry...to answer what it should output. the first line should output 32 and the loop 0, 1, 2, 3 ...31
22.42.51 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: does this look like normal output? http://pastebin.com/d34c54d22
22.44.08 #       <EternalRains> rasher: the only difference I can tell between the themes feed and another working feed is that the encoding is undefined, but I don't think that should be a problem.
22.44.28 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: no, 0x00000000 = 0020 is fine but 0x80000000 should be 001f and 0xffffffff should be 0000
22.44.35 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm and the for(i=0;i<32;i++) loop gives 32,31,30,29, etc
22.44.59 #       * mcuelenaere suspects the 31-t0 instruction
22.45.14 #       <rasher> EternalRains: I fixed it - it was missing escaping of & characters
22.45.32 #       <EternalRains> rasher: ok, it works now :)
22.47.11 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: I am getting errors, like this one: "uisdl.h:306:2: error: #error no UI defines" :-(
22.47.35 #       <mcuelenaere> that's because you need your target as a simulator
22.47.44 #       <mcuelenaere> s/need/need to add/
22.48.03 #       <casainho> on file "uisimulator/sdl/button.c:22:"
22.48.19 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: how do I add it?
22.49.02 #       * jhMikeS would expect clz(0x80000000) to return 0 and clz(0x00000001) to return 31 and so 31-clz(x) = bit index
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22.49.10 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: see http://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev&revision=20273 for an example
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22.52.44 #       <taylor_> TBOL3: hey, how is the project going?
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22.54.12 #       <TBOL3> The one I proposed yestorday?  Not too good.  I actually just go out of class, and am doing homework at the moment.
22.54.36 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm clz seems to need a nop instruction after it to assemble in binutils?
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22.55.07 #       <TBOL3> Basically, I have made a few proof of consepts (sorry theres no spell checker here), but I have yet to implament them.
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22.57.00 #       <taylor_> ok, cool
22.57.42 #       <TBOL3> taylor_:  I don't remembor, did you have a project you wanted to implament?
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22.58.45 #       <TBOL3> Oh, and I was thinking that I really should get some type of protype up this weekend, otherwise I don't think I will have even a chance of being accepted...  :)
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23.03.54 #       <taylor_> TBOL3: Hmmm... not sure, yet. And could I ask, again, as I forgot from last night, sorry, what exactly you plan to make your prototype based on?
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23.06.29 #       <TBOL3> taylor_:  The best way is honostly the wiki (unless you can't have the wiki on the home page for some reason).  I'ts light, and flexible, and can hold a lot of information in a simple form factor (if done correctly).
23.06.43 Nick    fxb__ is now known as fxb (n=felixbru@h1252615.stratoserver.net)
23.07.38 #       <taylor_> So the project will be based around the wiki? (just still a little confused) :(
23.07.59 #       <evilnick> Er, is this Rockbox related, guys?
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23.08.51 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: not sure if this version works correctly, but GCC seems to suggest doing it like this: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc-patches/2005-07/msg00884.html
23.08.54 #       <taylor_> evilnick: yes
23.09.11 #       <mcuelenaere> I think GEN_INT (GET_MODE_BITSIZE (<MODE>mode)) == 32 (or 31)
23.09.27 #       <taylor_> evilnick: if it wasn't a rockbox member would have let him know.
23.09.47 #       <BigBambi> taylor_: how is it Rockbox related?
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23.11.34 #       <TBOL3> evilnick:  yes, it is, yesterday, I was saying that their should be a simple new user's page, and basically, I was given a link, and told that you used to have one, but it was really complex.  That's what we're talking about.
23.11.49 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: d oyou know what values shoudl I choose for "UI_WIDTH"?
23.12.37 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Are you creating your prototype on your own webspace then, as I seem to remember people weren't happy with your general proposals at least
23.12.41 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: that depends on the image you're using
23.13.01 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: what image? :-)
23.13.14 #       <mcuelenaere> the background image for your simulator
23.13.24 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere, jhMikeS: why don't we use the builtin ffs function in gcc?
23.13.25 #       * mcuelenaere suggest casainho trying one of the other targets' simulator
23.13.26 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Yup.
23.13.33 #       <mcuelenaere> n1s: is there one?
23.13.35 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: my LCD is 128x128, can I reuse another image?
23.13.45 #       <mcuelenaere> no, because it depends on how the target looks
23.13.48 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere: yes http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-3.4.6/gcc/Other-Builtins.html#Other-Builtins
23.13.54 #       <mcuelenaere> casainho: it is an image of your target
23.14.10 #       <n1s> __builtin_ffs
23.14.12 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: You seemed to have mentioning thinking the front page needs to change. Be aware 95% of the information on the front page, at least, is not really things we'll be willing to get rid of.
23.14.27 #       <casainho> mcuelenaere: but, should I use one iamge from a target with same LCD size?
23.15.22 #       <jhMikeS> n1s: it came about for threading purposes so I don't know if it's compatible, it looks like that one in the pastebin would return -1 as well
23.15.36 #       <jhMikeS> ...for operands[1] = 0
23.15.39 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  No, I'm sorry, I wasn't proposing a radical change to the front page.  I was proposing putting a link to the rockbox utility on the front page.  I'm just creating a new user's page in the hope that it can be linked to from the side bar.
23.16.18 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Why isn't Rasher's proposed large link to RBUtil from the download page good enough?
23.16.32 #       <n1s> jhMikeS: ok, just curious
23.16.36 #       <taylor_> I think its actually a pretty good idea. Lets see how it goes. As long as most of the info on the front page stays untouched...
23.16.47 #       <taylor_> I don't see a problem
23.16.54 #       <mcuelenaere> n1s: (.text.main+0x288): undefined reference to `ffs'
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23.17.16 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere: what if you use __builtin_ffs() ?
23.17.24 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: yes, that's what I'm thinking too (hence I said I wasn't sure it was correct)
23.17.29 #       <mcuelenaere> n1s: that's what I used
23.18.24 #       <evilnick> TBOL3: Like a Quick Start Guide as opposed to the Fine Manual?
23.18.50 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Mainly because it's not just there, you have to go to it through a round about way, and because it's the recomended way to get the utility
23.18.58 #       <TBOL3> evilnick:  Yes, is that ok?
23.19.34 #       <domonoky> casainho: UI_WIDTH is the width of the image around the display of the simulator.
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23.19.58 #       <evilnick> TBOL3: If it's well-written and helps people to initially get to grips with Rockbox then I'd be in favour of it.
23.20.18 #       <BigBambi> My worries about a quick start page in addition to the manual is that we will have to be careful to keep both up to date. We already have problems with the wiki and manual getting out of sync
23.20.45 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: That sentence doesn't make much sense. People see "Download", click it, see "Automatic install", click it.
23.20.50 #       <Llorean> What's "not just there" about it?
23.20.58 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere: hmm
23.21.07 #       <Llorean> "Download" is actually alot clearer than "Rockbox Utility" in terms of helping people find what to do
23.21.22 #       <Llorean> If you don't know RBUtil exists, you don't have the frame of reference to know it's what you need
23.21.38 #       <mcuelenaere> n1s: I suppose GCC depends on something that should be implemented in libc?
23.22.56 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere: yeah, that's likely the cause, using the builtin will probably only help optimization in some special cases and not really be that usefull
23.23.17 #       <evilnick> I can see the value in having something that's more simply worded.
23.23.21 #       <TBOL3> Actually, they see releases, and then automatic install.  And then they see the equivelent of a what looks like a bug tracking page.  I think that's too many clicks and jumps.
23.23.33 #       <n1s> I assumed it would either inline the function or emit a support routine like it does for division etc
23.24.27 #       <TBOL3> BigBambi:  Oh, yes, I really didn't think of that.  Hmm.. then we might want to make a sistem that's really easy for devs to just plug stuff into.  Thank you very much.
23.24.47 #       <mcuelenaere> huh? binutils/GCC compiles jr ra\nli v0, 32 as jr ra\nnop and li v0, 32\njr ra\nnop as jr ra\nli v0, 32 ??
23.24.58 #       <casainho> I am getting this error while trying build simulator: /usr/bin/ld: /home/cas/Documentos/rockbox_player/rockbox/build_firmware/apps/bitmaps/native/rockboxlogo.128x40x16.o: Relocations in generic ELF (EM: 40)
23.24.59 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: I'm talking about Rasher's proposed page, not what's there now.
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23.25.27 #       <TBOL3> evilnick:  Ya, that's why I would really like to get a protype out before I continue to discuss it.
23.25.35 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Oops, sorry.
23.25.36 #       <evilnick> Maybe even just adding a graphic of RBUtil, otherwise a new visitor could ignore the fact that the #1 recommended way to install is RBUtil - all the graphics are distracting.
23.26.09 #       <rasher> evilnick: that was my thinking - http://rasher.dk/rockbox/HUGEBUTTON.png (obviously a different graphic would be needed :)
23.26.12 #       <evilnick> And we all know that people can't be expected to read words when there are pretty pictures on the same page(!)
23.26.12 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Yes, they still see either "releases" or "current build" but then they immediately see something suggesting they use RBUtil
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23.26.30 #       <Llorean> evilnick: We also discussed removing the table *entirely*
23.26.35 #       <evilnick> rasher: You are clearly way ahead of me!
23.26.37 #       <Llorean> Since it doesn't help in the way it was intended to help
23.26.47 #       <evilnick> Llorean: I'd agree
23.26.54 #       <Bagder> the table could be moved to a sub page "if you really insist"
23.27.06 #       <Llorean> Bagder: That's my thought
23.27.11 #       * mcuelenaere thinks he got FFS on MIPS right now
23.27.23 #       <evilnick> If you know enough to be able to install the bootloader on your own, then you already know where to get the build and you'd probably get the svn build anyway
23.27.33 #       <Llorean> Bagder: Put the automatic installer on the "Current Build" and the "Release" page, then have a link from them to "Download individual zip(s)" that leads to the table for each
23.27.46 #       <Bagder> yeps
23.28.04 #       <Bagder> with a huge button like in rasher's mockup
23.28.08 #       <Llorean> Yes
23.28.09 #       <Llorean> Exactly
23.28.38 #       <JdGordon|> can extras and themes be swapped on the right menu bar thing?
23.28.42 #       <Llorean> I think if we mention RBUtil on the front page (or rather, if we don't mention both Current Build and Release) people will still ask us "I see the installer, but where do I get the SVN version?" or similar
23.29.01 #       <rasher> Maybe one of the wps graphic people could come up with a nice button
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23.30.01 #       <TBOL3> rasher: Hmm... not exactly what I had in mind.  I was thinking of giving it it's own page, linked to from the home page.
23.30.13 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  Do people seriosly ask that!?!
23.30.27 #       <rasher> That's what Llorean and Bagder are suggesting, and I think it's a good idea
23.30.39 #       <rasher> Or rather, have rbutil take over the current pages and move the tables somewhere else
23.31.27 #       <TBOL3> I disagree.  The tables should stay there, they are a good way for power users to get rockbox.
23.31.30 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: I've been providing support for Rockbox for years now. If the text isn't incredibly clear about what to expect, people don't see it. Half the time even if it is, they don't see it.
23.32.30 #       <TBOL3> Wow.  I thought it was plenty explicit, but that was the text inside the app, the page the app is placed on, isn't really friendly to new users.
23.32.54 #       <Llorean> People usually don't have a problem once they've downloaded it.
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23.33.18 #       <Llorean> In fact, the problem is almost always people who decide  to try the manual installation instructions.
23.33.24 #       <BigBambi> TBOL3: The table should be moved.  You go to that page, see some writing and a picture of your player.  You click on your player.  This is true (but les do ) even with rasher's MASSIVE BUTTON
23.34.04 #       <Llorean> BigBambi: Actually, people read the text at least as often as looking at the player. That's why we get people who click on the 4G Graycale player, and then ask why it doesn't work on a Nano 4G... =/
23.34.18 #       <Llorean> They just don't read it well
23.34.25 #       <TBOL3> BigBambi:  Ok, that's true, but then in that case, we should move it to it's own page,  which has a simple link to it, from the releases page,  I don't think that's to many clicks for a power user.
23.34.29 #       <Llorean> If there's only one obvious installation link on the page, it will serve people much better.
23.34.39 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: We already said that, yes.
23.34.49 #       <BigBambi> Llorean: True, but if it is gone there is no option
23.34.53 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  hmm... actually, I didn't read the text on my first instal... :)
23.35.06 #       <BigBambi> TBOL3: Yes, that is what I was saying
23.35.42 #       <TBOL3> Ow gak, I guess that's what I get for attempting to do my homework while having a conversation with you.  :)
23.35.49 #       <Llorean> BigBambi: Exactly. That's basically my point - the table just provides new opportunities for confusion, rather than helping clear it up. It was necessary pre-RBUtil, now it should be moved someplace less visible.
23.36.12 #       <BigBambi> Llorean: Agreed :)
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23.36.46 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  I agree.
23.36.56 #       <TBOL3> But than again, I'm not a dev here.
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23.43.13 #       <n1s> mcuelenaere: sorry if this is s stupid question but looking at your latest change to the mips ffs something seems wrond, at least following the comments, it seems t0 = a0 & -10 but then clz is done on a0 and the result in t0 is not used?
23.43.24 #       <n1s> s/ s / a /
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23.43.49 #       <n1s> or i'm just misreading it
23.44.17 #       <mcuelenaere> hmm right that seems wrong :/
23.44.39 #       <mcuelenaere> damn, this ffs thing keeps following me :)
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23.44.59 #       <mcuelenaere> can anybody provide me with a thorough test case for ffs?
23.45.07 #       <n1s> wow, i can't type, s/-10/-a0/ obviously
23.45.13 #       <mcuelenaere> for the Rockbox FFS implementation*
23.45.23 #       * shotofadds is mighty confused trying to debug this > http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.systems.archos.rockbox.devel/4069
23.45.31 #       <amiconn> I wonder why you don't use the delay slots...
23.45.43 #       <mcuelenaere> amiconn: binutils
23.45.56 #       <shotofadds> it seems to take the codec more than 5s until LOW_DATA(4) is false
23.46.03 #       <amiconn> What do binutils have to do wuth that?
23.46.03 #       <mcuelenaere> <mcuelenaere> huh? binutils/GCC compiles jr ra\nli v0, 32 as jr ra\nnop and li v0, 32\njr ra\nnop as jr ra\nli v0, 32 ??
23.46.12 #       <mcuelenaere> binutils or GCC, I'm not sure who
23.46.22 #       <shotofadds> ie. decoding at <20% realtime, even though mp3 will run in test_coded at >600%
23.46.43 #       <TBOL3> Ok, really dumb question, can any of you tell me what FFS is, it seems like it's some type of code, but I can't get anything more specific).
23.46.57 #       * shotofadds needs a buffering expert
23.47.24 #       * Bagder removed the table from the download page
23.47.34 #       <amiconn> .S isn't processed by gcc afaik. Something is clearly wrong there if the assembler changes the order of instructions. I think the docs should explain what's going on, unless it's a bug (which I doubt)
23.47.46 #       <n1s> TBOL3: find first set (bit)
23.47.49 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: unsigned x = 0xffffffff; for (i = 0; i <=32; i++) { int bit = find_first_set_bit(x); output: x, bit; x <<= 1; } *or similar*
23.47.58 #       <Llorean> Bagder: We should probably make Current Build look very similar too
23.48.05 #       <Llorean> I guess by "we" I mean "you"...
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23.48.18 #       <Bagder> :-)
23.48.25 #       <n1s> TBOL3: "first" meaning least significant
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23.48.46 #       <bluefoxx> OK, So for the most part, compiling rockbox seems rather simple, nice and straitforward so far. My only question is how do i customize it before i compile it? As in, how can i add back in features like tapping <rec> from the WPS to quickly show the playlist, go back to the old style the virtual keyboard used or rearrange the menus, as well as customizing the bootsplash
23.49.09 #       <bluefoxx> Where do i change these things/
23.49.12 #       <bluefoxx> ? *
23.49.12 #       <Llorean> bluefoxx: Edit the source code. You'll need to know C.
23.49.28 #       <jhMikeS> mcuelenaere: bit should then go from 0..32 as x goes 0xffffffff, 0xfffffffe, 0xfffffffc ... 0x00000000
23.49.57 #       <bluefoxx> Llorean: any places that give a good tutorial for someone who knows nothing about C other than that its apparently hard?
23.50.17 #       <TBOL3> Hmm.. that would be an interesting idea (no, I'm not about to do it though), set up the source code so that someone can customize what features that they want to have.
23.50.19 #       <Llorean> bluefoxx: Google is full of tutorials. Learning C is mostly off-topic here anyway.
23.50.29 #       <n1s> bluefoxx: google knows of manu such tutorials
23.50.34 #       <n1s> *many
23.50.37 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Mostly you can remove features by removing defines as it is. Some need fixing though
23.50.38 #       <TBOL3> Yes, I know that it's partially in there, but hey that would be cool.
23.50.43 #       <bluefoxx> Its a ocean of them...
23.51.12 #       <TBOL3> n1s:  Ok thanks.
23.51.25 #       <mcuelenaere> jhMikeS: thanks, now I got it working
23.51.47 #       <bluefoxx> Google, i find, is a book of all the knowlage out there mixed up in a cellpool of retardism and sludge...
23.51.49 #       * shotofadds wonders if re-posting that 9-month old email on the -dev list would be frowned upon.. i'm kinda stuck for ideas now.
23.52.04 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Generally we aren't going to want to keep around features that aren't enabled by default. They'll just rot. There are a few exceptions to this, but not many. So it'll only be useful for easily removing functionality if ever used at all.
23.52.06 #       <bluefoxx> I could easily spend my entire day trying to find one decent tutorial on C...
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23.52.18 #       <n1s> bluefoxx: yes, i found it the easisest way for me was to read other people's code and change things around and look up constructs i came across that i didn't know
23.52.26 #       <Llorean> bluefoxx: And most of us learned C from books, so we don't know which ones are good. I already told you it's off-topic in here. Please respect that.
23.52.47 #       <bluefoxx> n1s: thats how i figured out how to edit the .wps files, before the syntax changed...
23.53.10 #       <taylor_> bluefoxx: http://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/c/lesson1.html
23.53.17 #       <bluefoxx> Llorean: sorry, if i had money for books i would buy them, but since i don't i'll shut up now.
23.53.18 #       <TBOL3> Llorean:  I never said practical, I just said that it would be cool.  Oh, and might I recomend thinking in C to get your feet wet in the language?
23.53.23 #       <bluefoxx> taylor_: thanks
23.53.34 #       <Llorean> taylor_: When people have said something's off-topic, that doesn't mean "ignore them."
23.54.34 #       <taylor_> Llorean: I didn't ignore you, bluefoxx asked for a good tutorial, and I gave it to him, now we will both shut up about 'C prgramming'. Its that easy
23.54.43 #       <mcuelenaere> amiconn: the problem was that I didn't .set noreorder
23.55.08 #       <TBOL3> Here is the link: http://mindview.net/CDs/ThinkingInC/beta3 , oh, and it's free.
23.55.26 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: The same goes for you.
23.55.32 #       <Llorean> C tutorials are not on-topic here.
23.56.11 #       <taylor_> I think we get the point.
23.56.15 #       <taylor_> Sorry
23.56.16 #       <Llorean> If you want to tell someone something that's off-topic, PMs do exist. PLEASE respect our channel guidelines.
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23.57.08 #       <TBOL3> I appologies (this is actually the first IRC channel I've ever subscribed to).  And I honostly didn't know PMs exist, but I shall use them from now on.
23.57.40 #       <Llorean> TBOL3: Even if they didn't, it's not an excuse to ignore channel guidelines. If something is said to be off-topic in here, please drop the subject in the future.