--- Log for 05.10.111 Server: leguin.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot Version: Dancer V4.16 Started: 1 day and 16 hours ago 00.00.28 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00.03.38 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;)) 00.07.13 # ah, the nano2g doesn't even support radio yet, because IAP does not work on that target yet 00.07.55 Join Thra11_ [0] (~thrall@42.5.113.87.dyn.plus.net) 00.08.16 Join T44 [0] (~Topy44@f049103045.adsl.alicedsl.de) 00.08.55 # bertrik: do serial work on nano2g? 00.09.31 # wodz, I made a patch for IAP over UART0 for the nano2g, but I have no idea if it actually works (probably doesn't) 00.10.15 # I remember someone working on serial output for the nano2g recently, was it Lalufu perhaps? 00.10.27 Quit Thra11 (Read error: Operation timed out) 00.11.07 # aha, looks like the "buttons locked" splash is actually handled by the button action system 00.11.10 # probably 00.11.58 Quit Topy44 (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 00.13.52 # polemon: ok if you want to compile nano2g sim with FM screen you need hack a bit firmware/config/ipodnano2g.h file 1) uncoment CONFIG_TUNER line 2) add SRC_CAP_FMRADIO to INPUT_SRC_CAPS 00.14.01 # just checked this 00.14.20 # does a 1st gen Nano sim show the radio screen? 00.14.47 # it should 00.15.31 # then that's enough for theme making - both have the same screen size and bit depth which is the only thing that counts 00.16.42 # I believe that's what polemon wanted as the question was about viewing FMSs 00.16.51 # I recall someone stated today that there is no other target with screen dimentions as nano2g 00.17.26 # I said there were no others like the Nanos 00.17.39 # ah, I misunderstood than 00.19.03 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) 00.22.48 # whats the max clock on the Fuze+? 00.23.17 # freddyb: whyd you close the glyphcache patch? 00.23.27 # your one which rejigs the load size 00.24.25 Quit bertrik (Quit: And That, My Liege, Is How We Know the Earth to Be Banana Shaped) 00.29.03 # * JdGordon does like this idea boaut The Fund buying him a sports car though 00.40.10 # (You mean allocate by glyphs.) I thought it was a good idea but i'm not going to bat for it. 00.40.40 Join krey_ [0] (~krey@stu171.sjc.ox.ac.uk) 00.41.01 # hello, I can't remount my ipod since I installed dropbox 00.41.51 # ^rockbox 00.43.30 # probably worth mentioning what ipod you have 00.49.51 # video (5g) 00.49.57 # the block device doesn't exist 00.56.20 Join Scromple [0] (~Simon@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au) 01.03.41 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@149.254.182.244) 01.04.48 # freddyb: i dont tihnk anyone else had any thoughts on it at all.. 01.04.59 # and actually tihnking about it i tinhk its a good idea 01.09.54 Join ReimuHakurei [0] (~reimu@adsl-75-16-233-161.dsl.kntpin.sbcglobal.net) 01.10.14 # If there's no resistance I might reopen it but part of the reason I did it was to not starve international users of glyphs and the only likely way to get this in is if reducing memory usage is the only possibility. 01.14.33 # 99% of users wont realise there is a difference 01.18.53 Quit Thra11_ (Quit: kthxbai) 01.27.10 Quit KiwiCam (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 01.28.34 # krey_: which computer OS? 01.28.48 # pixelma: linux 01.30.10 Quit robin0800 (Read error: Connection timed out) 01.30.49 # hmm, I just knew that some versions of MacOS had trouble with our USB HID mode so turning that off would have been a suggestion but I believe there's no such known problem under linux. Still worth a try maybe but other than that I need to pass 01.32.18 # you should always be able to use the Apple firmware for USB (manually started or so) but Rockbox USB should work on the Video 01.32.23 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@rouxbicon.rh.uchicago.edu) 01.34.16 # pixelma: even if I reboot into disk mode, nothing happens. is this normal? 01.35.42 Quit RansomTime (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 01.36.43 Join RansomTime [0] (~RT@wikia/vstf/Randomtime) 01.41.20 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@149.254.186.244) 01.43.10 Join bobby2hat [0] (bobby2hat@host109-148-188-88.range109-148.btcentralplus.com) 01.44.45 # hello all, why have I got a write error on a (v. old!) 3g ipod classic when installing the bootloader with utility or ipodpatcher when run as administrator, windows 7, in disk mode... 01.45.26 Quit AlexP (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01.46.24 # maybe the disk is dead 01.47.46 Quit krey_ (Remote host closed the connection) 01.49.08 # tried moving 200mb mp3 it worked, checked disk for errors... 01.49.14 # ok 01.49.54 # would anything restrict access? 01.52.51 Quit RansomTime (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 01.54.09 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 01.56.42 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 02.01.44 Join chelz [0] (~iridesenc@unaffiliated/chelz) 02.02.32 # is there an article/guide/etc on the differences/similarities between Rockbox and the iPod 5G / 5.5G / 6G native firmware? 02.05.09 Quit hilbert (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 02.05.48 # chelz: if you just mean an overview of rockbox features and the apple firmware features, try wikipedia 02.08.09 # saratoga: well i'm trying to decide if i should get an iPod 5G / 5.5G that's only 80GB that can dualboot or iPod 6G that's 160GB but can only run rockbox. so i'm curious what, if anything, rockbox lacks that might be worth only 80GB 02.08.43 Join RiotGear [0] (~RioTgEar@206.192.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) 02.09.38 # chelz: the 6G port isn't in particularly good shape at the moment, so thats something to consider 02.14.45 Quit bobby2hat () 02.20.01 Quit fatline (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 02.33.09 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Dammit...who highlighted me? 02.33.25 # <[Saint_AndChat]> My scrollback doesn't go that far. 02.34.21 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Bah...just dismissed the notification without reading it. 02.34.30 # [Saint_AndChat], so why not look in the logs for your nick ;) 02.35.00 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Because its painful on a phone :) 02.36.58 Quit soap (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02.37.35 # the logviewer is fine on the phone 02.37.37 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 02.37.56 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 02.42.32 Quit tjb0607 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 02.44.10 Quit ReimuHakurei (Remote host closed the connection) 02.45.01 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Well...that was boring :) 02.45.39 # <[Saint_AndChat]> alexbobp: weird your build hated my theme. 02.45.55 Join soap [0] (~soap@rockbox/staff/soap) 02.46.05 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You don't have resources on sdcard running f, do you? It hates that. 02.46.23 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It'll copy over the. wps 02.47.02 Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@eng418.wireless-resnet.upenn.edu) 02.50.51 Join milk [0] (~milk@94-193-93-226.zone7.bethere.co.uk) 02.52.14 Join tjb0607 [0] (~quassel@208-100-128-206.bendbroadband.com) 02.59.58 Join soap__ [0] (~soap@94.75.232.194) 03.00.39 Quit freddyb (Quit: Leaving) 03.00.40 Quit soap (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 03.00.52 Nick soap__ is now known as soap (~soap@94.75.232.194) 03.01.11 Quit soap (Changing host) 03.01.11 Join soap [0] (~soap@rockbox/staff/soap) 03.03.10 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 03.11.23 Quit ChickeNES (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 03.18.16 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@rouxbicon.rh.uchicago.edu) 03.26.02 Join ChickeNE_ [0] (~ChickeNES@rouxbicon.rh.uchicago.edu) 03.26.27 Quit ChickeNES (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03.26.43 Quit Keripo (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 03.26.56 Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@eng418.wireless-resnet.upenn.edu) 03.30.26 # which fonts get installed when installing minimal installation, or without the extra font pack 03.30.31 # ? 03.31.15 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Only whatever your cabbie port uses, and sysfont. 03.31.19 # only the one(s) needed by the default theme 03.32.21 # and which are those? 03.32.49 # I installed the font pack, now I have many, but I'd like to minimize the space .rockbox takes up 03.33.18 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Look at cabbiev2 cfg 03.33.25 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It'll tell you. 03.33.41 # ok, I'll check 03.33.44 # it actually may not :) 03.33.57 # polemon: whats the point? save 10mb or less? 03.34.02 # <[Saint_AndChat]> .....buh? 03.34.13 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It may not? 03.34.15 # btw, why not to ad some ani-aliased fonts? 03.34.39 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Feel free to submit some. 03.35.00 # hmm i could 03.35.01 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Ones with acceptable licenses, obviously. 03.35.13 # but they're propiretary 03.35.18 # though 03.35.27 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Then, no, we can't use them. 03.35.28 # gejavu fonts should be fine 03.35.36 # DejaVu* 03.36.17 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I supplied a font pack ages ago...its not a lack of fonts, its a lack of....effort. 03.37.08 # you mean bdf fonts? 03.37.21 # <[Saint_AndChat]> One sec, ill drop a new link here from my dropbox, huge aa font pack. 03.38.22 # <[Saint_AndChat]> http://db.tt/rEG2cAjL 03.38.39 Join Jak_o_Shadows [0] (~hayden@CPE-144-136-211-121.sa.bigpond.net.au) 03.38.55 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Lots of sizes, bold, regular, light, acceptable license. 03.38.58 # JdGordon: just so I know what font's I should use in my themes 03.39.19 # anyway, I'm looking at cabbiev2, but there's just one font in the .cfg 03.39.37 # <[Saint_AndChat]> polemon: how many did you expect? 03.39.46 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Cabbie only uses one font. 03.40.11 # <[Saint_AndChat]> But, that font differs between targets. 03.40.17 # yeah, but that wasn't what I was looking for 03.40.41 # what font's are always installed, no matter if it is minimal installation, or something else. 03.40.47 # which fonts are those? 03.41.02 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It differs between targets. 03.41.10 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You can't do it that way. 03.41.41 # Well, the theme I made, is just for the iPod nano 03.41.47 # <[Saint_AndChat]> The only way is to state that the user must download the font pack and use it in order to use your theme. 03.42.05 # <[Saint_AndChat]> That way your not limited to using a specific font. 03.42.18 # so there is not a single font, that is consistent on all installs? 03.42.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> No. 03.42.56 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Well, there is...but its 8px high, and ugly as hell :) 03.43.18 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Its only a fallback, though. 03.43.23 # there's this helv*.fnt fonts, they seem to be like a fallback or something 03.43.37 # helvR*.fnt, even 03.43.39 # even then, sysfont doesnt have many glyphs 03.43.44 # <[Saint_AndChat]> No, they're not. That's what cabbie uses. 03.43.52 # really? 03.43.57 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Yes. 03.44.03 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Really really. 03.44.31 # <[Saint_AndChat]> The size used, however, differs between target. 03.44.52 # <[Saint_AndChat]> There's no one font present on all targets other than sysfont. 03.45.41 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Use whatever font you want from the font pack, and state in the theme description that the font pack MUST be used. 03.46.02 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You can't account for all cases. Its not possible. 03.46.13 # well, then pretty much every theme needs the font pack... 03.46.31 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Yes. Correct. 03.47.52 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You can't include any font that's in the font pack in your theme, it'll wont be uploaded. I guess you discovered that. 03.48.44 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I did mention this some days ago... 03.54.10 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 03.56.34 Quit Keripo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03.59.44 Join Jak_o_Shadows1 [0] (~hayden@CPE-144-136-211-121.sa.bigpond.net.au) 04.02.29 Quit Jak_o_Shadows (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 04.03.11 Quit [7] (Disconnected by services) 04.03.20 Join TheSeven [0] (~TheSeven@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) 04.07.03 Quit FoH (Quit: ¡ooʇ ‘ǝןdoǝd ǝɹɐ sʇɐq) 04.13.14 # erm, I haven't discovered that, but I wouldn't do it anyway... 04.14.11 # ok, I'm gonna package the themes shortly, sadly, I can't test the .fms, so I can't include that one... 04.15.13 Quit Galois (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 04.15.16 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Ummmm...why can't you test it? 04.15.24 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I assure you you can. 04.15.32 # because I can't select the fms display in the UI 04.15.37 # UI simulator, that is 04.15.55 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Use the nano1g sim. 04.16.12 # ? 04.16.14 # oh 04.16.21 # ok, I'll try 04.16.37 # the nano1g always shows the radio? 04.16.51 # <[Saint_AndChat]> In the sim, yes. 04.17.02 # the sim shuold actually be changed to have a magic key to toggle fm-present 04.18.53 # yeah, that would be nice, but then again, I had to find out the hotkeys by trial and error 04.19.07 # there's help file, ot text file or somethnig 04.19.23 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You can just click on the ui buttons. 04.19.49 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Pretty simple... 04.20.23 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It works the same as the physical device does. 04.21.14 # we shuold actually have a IAP simulator program to talk to the sim(or real target even!) 04.21.43 # <[Saint_AndChat]> That'd be nice. 04.25.12 Quit GeekShadow (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 04.26.15 # ok, I've installed the Nano 1G UI sim and there's the FM radio! 04.26.22 # and the recording screen 04.26.49 # ok, it seems, I'm not finished with the theme afterall 04.27.18 Join GeekShadow [0] (~antoine@254.164.21.93.rev.sfr.net) 04.28.21 # for the recording screen, how do I do that? 04.28.38 # is there another file for it? 04.29.20 # no 04.29.35 # the recording screen cant really be skinned... 04.29.38 # it just uses the .wps? 04.29.40 # ah 04.29.47 # you can do it in the sbs if you're really adventurous though 04.29.51 Quit pixelma (Disconnected by services) 04.29.53 Join pixelma_ [0] (quassel@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.29.55 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (quassel@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.30.08 # that was on my todo list, and probably wont happen for quite a while now 04.30.18 # * JdGordon has no interest in recording 04.30.53 # yewell, there's other things that can't be skinned, seemingly 04.30.59 # VU level meters, for instance 04.31.16 # those that appear when the skin is not working, or when there is none at all.. 04.31.31 Join amiconn_ [0] (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 04.31.31 Quit amiconn (Disconnected by services) 04.31.37 # <[Saint_AndChat]> %?cs and the .sbs == a full recording screen skin. 04.31.38 # vu meters (called the peak meters) *can* be skinned 04.31.49 # no [Saint_AndChat] 04.31.50 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Beat me to it JdGordon :) 04.31.53 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 04.32.17 # yeah, but in the docs, I couldn't find the tags for it... 04.32.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> JdGordon: no? 04.32.39 # <[Saint_AndChat]> polemon: looking in the wrong place, probably. 04.32.46 # CustomWPS 04.32.51 # polemon: %pL and %pR will let you display a bar for the left and right channels 04.33.02 Quit fiesh (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 04.33.14 # [Saint_AndChat]: no, the rec screen does... err.. actually... 04.33.21 # <[Saint_AndChat]> polemon: search for "bar tags" 04.34.12 # yeah, the rec screen hardcodes all its info, the sbs wont work too well with it 04.34.45 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Yeah, I was a bit vague...you can skin around it :) 04.34.51 Quit ChickeNE_ (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 04.34.51 # <[Saint_AndChat]> And I've done so. 04.35.10 # Ah! OK, I found the peak meters, must have overlooked them 04.35.27 # <[Saint_AndChat]> polemon: you really should use the manual, also. 04.35.32 Join fiesh [0] (~fiesh@p4FCB7181.dip.t-dialin.net) 04.35.48 # well, all I could find, was on rockbox.org 04.35.48 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Only use customWPS for tags that aren't in the manual. 04.35.54 # I'm reading the Wiki, basically 04.36.08 # <[Saint_AndChat]> The manual CLEARLY lists the skin tags. 04.36.16 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Its even in the index. 04.36.25 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You didn't look very well :) 04.36.37 # be nice.... 04.36.43 # it's quite confusing... 04.36.49 # it certainly is 04.36.50 # I mean the Wiki and page layout 04.36.54 # the wiki is pretty shit 04.37.05 # looks like a DokuWiki a bity 04.37.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Yeah, that's why I recommended the manual. Its laid out a bit better. 04.37.39 # s/.$// 04.37.40 # <[Saint_AndChat]> There's tags misssing from it, though. 04.38.24 # the tags don't belong in the manual, they should be in a seperate document autogened every time skin_engine/ is touched 04.38.37 # and not in fucking TeX, something simpler 04.38.44 # <[Saint_AndChat]> There's less tags missing from the manual than there is tags missing from CUSTOMWPS 04.38.47 # you guys should do it the Motorola way... 04.39.11 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Everything Motorola does is wrong by default :) 04.39.28 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I know, I own a Defy :p 04.40.35 # haha snap 04.44.25 # Motorola has nice documentation policies 04.44.43 # you can get all documentation on paper for free 04.44.54 # you don't even have to pay for shipping 04.45.13 # a friend of mine ordered the full documentation of the M68k 04.45.23 # over 6000 pages in total 04.45.30 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Make a sizable donation, and we'll talk :) 04.46.19 # <[Saint_AndChat]> "The Fund" would go broke /pretty/ quickly with printing and shipping. 04.46.26 # you could start by making a nice LaTeX documents 04.46.37 # <[Saint_AndChat]> We have those. 04.46.40 # documentation is boring... 04.46.44 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Its called the manual. 04.46.45 # hence the lack of them 04.47.04 # well, I'm not a big fan of doing documentation work myself... 04.47.24 # <[Saint_AndChat]> And LaTex != "nice" 04.47.33 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Its horrible to work Anthony. 04.47.36 # companies usually have lower tier programmers or so called "technical writers" for those tasks 04.47.42 # [Saint_AndChat]: nope 04.47.59 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Oh....it is. 04.48.01 # the tech writer here isnt techy at all :) 04.48.04 # I like LaTeX, I just shunned PDFlatex a year ago, or so 04.48.13 # she struggles with the command line even :) 04.48.30 # omg, EVERY single technical writer I've known in the companies I' 04.48.39 # ve worked for, were female 04.48.46 # polemon: like I said, if you want to help here it would be hugely useful to nuke CustomWPS and the manual and start a new seperate document 04.49.00 # bad timing 04.49.07 # <[Saint_AndChat]> polemon: perhaps you just volunteered to maintain our manual :) 04.49.15 # I'll be working on my masters thesis coming two semesters... 04.49.25 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Since you like latex so much .... 04.49.29 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Hehe.. 04.49.44 # I do like it, and I have to use it even more in the upcomping months and years 04.49.56 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Poor boy. 04.50.15 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Another soul twisted by the horrors of latex :) 04.50.16 # I wasn't a big fan of LaTeX until I discovered XeLaTeX 04.50.44 # XeTeX is certainly easier to use and let's you produce nicer documents 04.52.00 # in what sense nicer? 04.52.08 # for instance, you have OTF support 04.52.24 # going very offtopic now 04.52.29 # you're not bound to those shitty Computer Modern fonts, etc, you can easily swap them 04.52.29 # I don't see how that makes it nicer ;) 04.52.41 # you're not bound to them in latex either 04.52.46 # well, I have no problem shutting up just now... 04.52.46 # \usepackage{txfonts} e.g. 04.52.49 # oh yes 04.52.52 # fiesh: poop 04.52.56 # stop the TeX talk... 04.53.05 # move to #rockbox-community 04.53.23 # <[Saint_AndChat]> But yeah, JdGordon is right. It'd be a huge benefit to nuke customWPS and the manual and have one port of call for all such docs. If you know latex, and Luke it, ans are good with it...I almost guarantee it'll still need fixing when your semesters of study are up :) 04.53.26 # couple days ago I asked about the Bauer stereophonic binaural DSP but didn't get any answer 04.53.44 # has anyone ever considered implementing it? I'm kind of tempted but alas have zero time right now, so it might take a long time until I get to it 04.53.54 # <[Saint_AndChat]> s/Luke/like/ 04.54.22 # Well, I could take a look at it, and maybe do it on the side, since writing LaTeX documents, doesn't require too much cognitive workout 04.54.35 # [Saint_AndChat]: I *did* even attempt to have the help doc and the tag table (for the parser) generated from the same source xml file remember.... but that didnt happen :/ 04.54.56 # fiesh: yes 04.55.17 # i.e sounds like at least *you* have contemplated implementing it :) 04.55.28 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Hehe.. 04.56.07 # <[Saint_AndChat]> JdGordon: yeah, I remember that. Our problem is having ...what, like 2 "doc gurus". 04.56.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I can only think of 2... 04.56.30 # JdGordon: ok, let me rephrase that to "has anybody except me ever..." ;) 04.56.41 # I was actually surprised it isn't implemented in rockbox yet 04.56.49 # would seem very natural to have a dsp for headsets 04.56.49 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Likely no. 04.57.06 # there are apparently 4 people online at the moment, so its hardly a sensible question... 04.57.22 # * JdGordon is being a bit of an ass :) 04.57.34 # you sure you cant do the same affect with the current dsp? 04.57.42 # well it could be they have been part of a discussion etc., so it's not just 4 people 04.57.44 Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@eng418.wireless-resnet.upenn.edu) 04.58.07 # pretty sure, http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/ 04.58.28 # <[Saint_AndChat]> fiesh: if there's nothing on flyspray, then it was *only* discussion, and therefore not relevant. :) 04.58.54 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Discussion, and implementation ans motivation are very different things. 04.58.56 # ok, thanks 04.59.59 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Things are often discussed, but that's no indication anyone intended doing anything about it. 05.00.52 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Seems a nice idea, but it should be possible already with custom configs and our existing settings. 05.01.34 # it should? 05.01.36 # hmm 05.01.44 # <[Saint_AndChat]> It should, yes. 05.02.04 # how? 05.02.18 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Just have an "in car" configuration, a "headset" configuration, etc. 05.02.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Run when needed. 05.02.38 # yes that's what I want, but how would I get the DSP? 05.03.00 # fiesh: is that much different then the crossfeed DSPs we support? 05.03.11 Join Rob2223 [0] (~Miranda@p4FFF1D89.dip.t-dialin.net) 05.04.29 # saratoga: to my understsanding, the bs2b is more sophisticated 05.04.43 # but I haven't done any direct listening comparison, I should do that, good idea 05.04.47 # what does it do differently? 05.06.37 # hmm good question, I never looked at its details I must admit, I was always more than happy with the bs2b ;) 05.07.00 Quit Rob2222 (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 05.07.10 # [Saint_AndChat]: it was AlexP, who is not me :P 05.07.38 # hmm maybe I'm wrong actually and it doesn't give anything extra, thanks saratoga, I'll try some direct comparisons 05.07.57 # <[Saint_AndChat]> "Its different! Different is better...can haz moar differents!" :) 05.08.05 # hehe 05.08.19 # <[Saint_AndChat]> alexbobp: yeah, sorry...Nick complete fail. 05.08.31 # no worries 05.08.31 # skimming that link its cites someone named "Meier" who is suspiciously similar in name to the "Meier crossfeed" on the patch tracker 05.09.04 # <[Saint_AndChat]> saratoga: I'd like that in svn ...I've been using it a long time. 05.09.08 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I like it. 05.09.26 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I'm not sure why it wasn't donutted. 05.09.37 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Lol, *committed 05.10.33 # bug bertrik, hes probably just been working on other stuff 05.14.06 Quit T44 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05.21.25 Join Topy44 [0] (~Topy44@f049103045.adsl.alicedsl.de) 05.28.23 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Remote host closed the connection) 05.32.32 Part chelz 05.40.18 # fiesh: i've honestly never noted this fatiguing effect of headphone listening with pure stereophonic sources. but, if something like bs2b is going to do what it should do to work like it ought, i would imagine it must perform an approximation of the hrtf. 05.42.14 # Unhelpful: I think the crossfeed filter really does a decent job, I gave it a couple of tries and can't complain at all, although I tested it vs. bs2b on my laptop, so the output device was not the same 05.42.18 # Unhelpful: but thanks 05.42.56 Quit Horscht (Quit: Verlassend) 05.43.45 # fiesh: well, a simple crossfeed probably does *enough*. if you want to simulate listening on speakers, though, there is a well-known method for converting "some audio" to "what this would sound like in each ear if coming from a specific point in space" 05.44.14 # which, if you want to really sound like two speakers, is what you would aim for 05.54.13 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 05.56.38 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 06.06.27 Quit niekie (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 06.06.45 Join niekie [0] (~niek@CAcert/Assurer/niekie) 06.12.49 Join Galois [0] (djao@efnet-math.org) 06.19.01 # New commit by 03fredwbauer (r30714): Do not font_unload() failed fonts when aborting a skin load 06.23.43 # r30714 build result: 0 errors, 7 warnings (fredwbauer committed) 06.27.53 Join fatline [0] (~fatline@pool-108-27-113-221.nycmny.east.verizon.net) 06.37.12 # <[Saint_AndChat]> *-community made me think....does, or could, rbutil collect stats on successful installs, and if possible drop a file to count updates as well? 06.37.30 # <[Saint_AndChat]> (So updates aren't counted as installs) 06.41.42 # <[Saint_AndChat]> That would be useful, no? 06.42.06 # <[Saint_AndChat]> So we have even a ballpark guess of the userbase? 06.42.22 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Sao/do/ 06.42.29 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Bah! 06.44.11 Quit fatline (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 06.44.57 # New commit by 03Blue_Dude (r30715): Clean up compressor setting code 06.47.04 Quit Keripo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06.53.22 # r30715 build result: 0 errors, 7 warnings (Blue_Dude committed) 06.54.12 Quit Zharf (Read error: No route to host) 06.58.37 Quit Scromple (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 06.59.43 Join Scromple [0] (~Simon@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au) 07.00.20 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Remote host closed the connection) 07.02.45 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 07.04.27 Quit Scromple (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07.09.35 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07.11.45 Join Scromple [0] (NFXg@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au) 07.22.06 Quit powell14ski (Quit: powell14ski) 07.35.14 Join jludwig_ [0] (~jludwig@adsl-99-17-206-233.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) 07.38.58 Quit jludwig (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 07.40.15 Quit milk (Quit: baaaiiii) 07.41.54 Join kadoban [0] (~kadoban@ip98-165-177-158.ph.ph.cox.net) 07.48.34 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 07.54.17 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 07.54.23 Join Keripo [0] (~Keripo@dhcp0751.kin.resnet.group.upenn.edu) 07.55.34 Join RansomTime [0] (~RT@wikia/vstf/Randomtime) 08.22.35 # uh 08.22.52 Quit Scromple (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 08.23.28 # looks like i'm having problems with D2 since new item in debug menu 08.23.30 Quit Keripo (Quit: Leaving.) 08.24.04 # to be stright: rockbox freezes while playing, then changing track and before playing track 08.24.49 # some mp3 files don't play at all, just wps screen with readen tags and calculated time 08.25.16 # though sometimes they play but with huge (~30sec) delay 08.25.42 # also there's ~5-10 sec delay then changing tracks 08.27.43 Join Scromple [0] (~Simon@115-64-195-104.static.tpgi.com.au) 08.28.21 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor) 08.34.02 # <[Saint_AndChat]> There's no active maintainer for the D2, and hasn't been for some time, its also not "supported". 08.34.14 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I'm not surprised at all to be honest. 08.34.28 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Nor should anyone be :) 08.35.21 # <[Saint_AndChat]> You can help by bisecting which commit introduced the issues you're seeing. 08.35.30 Join mudd1 [0] (~cmertes@ip-78-94-202-227.unitymediagroup.de) 08.35.42 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Since you apparently have this target. 08.38.05 Quit RansomTime (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 08.40.23 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Remote host closed the connection) 08.40.54 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 08.41.42 Join ender` [0] (~ender@foo.eternallybored.org) 08.46.53 # well i'll try to find from where it starts once again 08.47.38 # Zagor: we talked about this before 08.47.50 # I think we want a dynamic tick for all targets, not only RaaA 08.48.44 # dynamic as in pause/resume, or on-demand tick lengths? 08.49.14 # the latter would be nice 08.50.43 # the target independent part could call a timer_reschedule() function and fix up current_tick as appropriate 08.51.12 # (this way HZ needn't be dynamic) 08.51.23 Quit Scromple (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08.52.51 # you can relax the tick rate when no music is playing (could possibly even do it depending on the codec) and no recent ui interaction took place 08.53.28 # raaa is still special since we really go into "don't even exist" mode, which never happens on hardware targets 08.53.51 # but sure, I'd love having it everywhere 08.54.42 # btw, the tick rate isn't a problem on my phone (0% cpu usage)# 08.55.08 # which phone model is that? 08.55.24 # htc legend 08.55.32 # interesting 08.55.43 # I get pretty solid 2% cpu use 08.55.47 # on my nexus s 08.56.51 # btw, where did you get the march and mtune gcc flags from? they're rather strange :-) 08.57.24 # that was the ndk default when I did the port 08.57.35 # <[Saint_AndChat]> 1% while backgrounded here on moto Defy, 2% on galaxy 5 08.57.37 # i.e. what the standard build system of the ndk used 08.57.56 # ok 08.58.06 # I'm fine with tuning for armv6 even 09.02.09 # Zagor: I'm not sure I like the solution to control the tick from java. I think the native code should control the java code (as per target tree), not the other way around. plus, the foreground/background switch is initiated from native, going back to native seems backward to me 09.02.58 # btw, you can have underscores in native methods. the separator is _1 then (or something like this) 09.03.17 # e.g. Java_org_rockbox_RockboxService_tick_1resume() 09.03.38 # eventually we should get rid of the automatic linkage, and register methods explicitely 09.06.11 Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de) 09.06.59 Join simonlnu_ [0] (u2FJYR2uze@unaffiliated/simonrvn) 09.10.35 Quit simonlnu (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 09.10.36 Nick simonlnu_ is now known as simonlnu (u2FJYR2uze@unaffiliated/simonrvn) 09.15.45 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 09.24.59 Join God_Eater [0] (93722cc8@gateway/web/freenode/ip.147.114.44.200) 09.25.06 Quit God_Eater (Changing host) 09.25.06 Join God_Eater [0] (93722cc8@rockbox/staff/GodEater) 09.40.21 # kugel: yeah you're probably right about native vs java. I was in the mindset that "app being minimized" is a java thing. 09.40.47 Join KiwiCam [0] (~Kiwi_Cam@206.192.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) 09.44.13 # Zagor: yes, that separation isn't always easy. I try to solve this kind of thinks in an interrupt-like fashion and respond to it in native (app minimized is handled in lcd-android.c btw) 09.46.51 # I hope this is clear enough: I have a bitmap that's 4 pixels across and three down. The top row and bottom row are black. (It's for a Sansa Clip so there are only two colours as such). The centre row is four white pixels across. Or, is it better to have just one row of black pixels four across, and duplicate them to give the impression of the block I mentioned first? What uses less memory? I'll be using a lot of this block in a them 09.46.51 # e that seems to be taking forever :) 09.53.08 # <[Saint_AndChat]> Bitmap strips use less memory than individual bitmaps to comprise the same image. 09.53.22 # <[Saint_AndChat]> I hope that's what you were asking. 09.54.20 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 10.05.18 # So, it's better to have one long bitmap say 3 x 27 pixels, than 9 bitmaps, each 3 by 1 making 27, joined together to look the same as the long bitmap? 10.21.24 # Thanks. 10.26.36 Join LinusN [0] (~linus@giant.haxx.se) 10.31.51 # <[Saint_AndChat]> KiwiCam: sorry, I was busy for a bit. Yeah, it is better to do it with a bitmap strip than it would be to use individual images. Easier to/ better code too :) 10.40.43 # True. Thanks again. 10.40.50 Quit KiwiCam (Quit: Leaving) 10.52.46 Quit [Saint_AndChat] (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11.07.49 # has there been any more movement on the git move? 11.08.22 # not since the gerrit installation. 11.08.38 # is http://git.rockbox.org supposed to show anything? 11.08.50 # thats where gerrit is going to end up no? 11.08.59 # no it's at gerrit.rockbox.org 11.09.13 # ah, okey dokey 11.15.13 Quit God_Eater (Quit: Page closed) 11.16.59 # Buschel: esp ping! :) 11.27.58 Join KiwiCam [0] (~Kiwi_Cam@206.192.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) 11.38.21 Quit bluebrother (Disconnected by services) 11.38.22 Join bluebrother^ [0] (~dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother) 11.39.58 Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11.41.06 Join fs-bluebot [0] (~fs-bluebo@g224238217.adsl.alicedsl.de) 11.47.44 # Zagor: RE tick rate: What I think would work well: 3 states, a) idle tick rate 1Hz, b) music, tick rate 25Hz, c) user activity, 100Hz. on native targets c) would be defined as via backlight on, on RaaA whether an activity is open or not 11.49.23 # (targets without backlight are tricky in that scheme, it's not goign to be worse for them) 11.49.34 # why have tick on at all in idle? 11.50.03 # there's lots of code depending on the tick 11.50.21 Join MethoS- [0] (~clemens@134.102.106.250) 11.51.06 # most importantly the thread scheduler, and various timers (e.g. idle poweroff) 11.51.29 # thread scheduler doesn't need to be running in idle 11.51.35 # idle poweroff does though 11.52.18 # unless we rather solve that with a single-shot timer 11.52.44 # my worry is that if we design for 1Hz we're going to be more lazy than if we aim for true zero-tick idle. 11.52.53 # I feel turning it off entirely is a bit drastic 11.53.18 # anyone wanna test a patch to fix glyphcache? 11.53.54 # I can't test stuff at work, I'm afraid 11.54.07 # you need the tick to respond to outside events too, so that the button queue is checked 11.54.22 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 11.54.41 # outside events should start the tick rather 11.54.42 # (e.g. start playback via remote button/widget when the app is in the background) 11.55.07 # I'm playing with a new system to save a different .glyphcache file for each font to better cache glyphs, currently i save them to /.rockbox/.glyhpcache. shold I put it in .rockbox/fonts (they'll be hidden in rockbox anyway), or some other place/name? 11.55.07 # if those events are polled, 1Hz isn't going to cut it anyway 11.55.35 # * kugel doesn't want TIMER_AFTER/_BEFORE to be wrong too 11.56.48 # JdGordon: are you back? that would be great 11.56.58 # nope 11.57.01 # that's what I mean. if we have to do polling in idle, we're going to want to up it to 10 Hz or more and suddenly we don't have much of an idle state at all 11.57.56 # I don't want to suggest polliong in idle state is good, but measuring time should still work 11.58.27 # why? 11.58.49 # change the idle timer to a one-shot firing at shutdown time 11.59.01 # JdGordon: oh well, I was curious since you want our opinion 11.59.32 # Zagor: timers work via tick :) 11.59.53 # kugel: we welcome everyone who contributes. long-term commitment is necessary. 11.59.57 # is *not* necessary 12.00.07 # the tick timer doesn't 12.00.39 Join Jak_o_Shadows [0] (~hayden@CPE-144-136-211-121.sa.bigpond.net.au) 12.00.40 # yes, but that one drives all other timers 12.01.13 # the fix for that is to not have the tick drive all other timers 12.01.17 # uh, yes. and we are talking about how we want to change that to avoid wasting power running empty timer loops. 12.01.30 # you set a timer interrupt to go off when the next timer is due 12.01.35 # et voila, no tick 12.01.42 # exactly 12.01.52 # right, on RaaA 12.01.59 # it's not that simple for native targets 12.02.02 # yes it is 12.02.09 # no it isn't 12.02.15 # most targets have only 2 timers 12.02.51 # you only need one 12.03.00 # set to go off when the next timer is due. 12.03.12 # yes, but's it's not simple to do 12.03.21 # ..yes it is! 12.03.26 Quit Jak_o_Shadows1 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12.03.34 # Torne: patch here in 5min=? :) 12.03.37 # <- wrote tickless kernels before 12.03.45 # we would have that by now if it was that easy 12.04.14 # you just keep a list of pending timers and scedule the next one each time the timer goes off.... not hard at all 12.04.25 # it's sure doable, and it's not rocket-science, but it 12.04.31 # Yeah. Interrupt goes off, pop timer off priority heap, read next delta, set interrupt again 12.04.34 # it's harder to implement that what we have now 12.04.34 # then execute timer 12.04.36 # just dont queue up a million tick times at boot 12.04.50 # It is more complicated than having a tick, yes 12.04.56 # but it's still simple 12.06.16 # the tickless kernel is only part of it, the otehr code needs to be adapted. e.g. our responsiveness to user actions depends on the tick 12.06.27 # Would that imply new interfaces for the timeout* functions, too? 12.06.30 # and threading 12.07.01 # that would all be done transparently 12.07.04 # *easy* 12.07.13 # queue_wait() would fix that 12.07.23 # (or queue_send() or whatever does the timeout) 12.07.50 # * JdGordon naivly assumed thats how our ticks were already being done! 12.08.17 # you need to decide whether latency is important currently or not, and stuff 12.08.24 Join Stummi [0] (~Stummi@rockbox/developer/Stummi) 12.15.19 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12.28.23 Quit KiwiCam (Quit: Leaving) 12.38.07 Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) 12.42.03 Join Jerom [0] (~jerome@79.132.42.48) 12.49.11 # kugel: the latency does not change. we just do away with all the ticks that do nothing more than increment the timer variable. 12.49.54 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@iwl138.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) 12.51.24 # Torne: am I correct that gdb-stubs exploit undefined instruction or swi on arm for single stepping? 12.51.35 # no idea. 12.52.04 # i have never debugged on non-emulated hardware without using an ICE 12.52.16 # or with gdb, really :) 12.52.40 # we don't use swi in rockbox right? 12.52.47 # we don't, no 12.52.50 # but we also can't sensibly 12.52.58 # we run in svc mode all the time, so swi will corrupt state 12.53.03 # (specifically r14) 12.53.22 # we should probably run in sys mode instead :) 12.53.58 # there is also, yaknow, BKPT instruction :) 12.55.09 # isn't it for v5+ ? 12.55.18 # which? 12.55.23 # sys mode exists in V4+ 12.55.44 # bkpt 12.55.48 # Oh. Yeah. 12.55.59 # undef works just as well 12.56.13 # if you're only using a software monitor 12.56.22 # i have no idea what real code actually does, thoguh 12.59.59 # Would there be any side effects of running in sys mode? Change should be trivial (only crt0.S probably) 13.00.23 # wodz: Nope. If you never use SWI it makes absolutely no difference at all, other than anywhere you actually inspect/set the mode bits (e.g. stack setup) 13.00.32 # It just enables you to use swi later. 13.01.17 Join Jak_o_Shadows1 [0] (~hayden@CPE-144-136-211-121.sa.bigpond.net.au) 13.02.02 # wodz: you're trying to debug the font boot crash?. 13.02.16 # wodz: the other other option for debugging is, yaknow, actual debug hardware in cp14 13.02.33 # but not everything has that :) 13.02.42 # JdGordon: I don't have target affected 13.02.53 # damn 13.03.41 # wodz: Yes, I've done some work with the serial port on the ipod2g. 13.03.42 Quit Jak_o_Shadows (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 13.03.42 Quit soap (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 13.03.47 # anything in particular? 13.03.57 # make that mini2g 13.04.31 # Torne: I am still thinking about extend our crash capabilities - gdb-stub should be quite easy option 13.04.54 # Lalufu 13.04.59 # mini or nano? 13.05.05 # the mini 13.05.10 # mini has working serial AFAIK 13.05.31 # yes, it does. It even has two working serials, which is a bit of a problem 13.05.40 # I suspect all the other ipods are similar 13.06.01 # anyway Torne has my mini 13.07.22 Quit Jerom (Quit: Leaving.) 13.07.51 # SER0 is the serial port next to the headphone jack, SER1 is the serial port in the dock connector 13.09.55 # being able to use both (not at the same time, but either one or the other) is somewhere on my todo-list 13.13.30 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@adsl-89-217-75-41.adslplus.ch) 13.14.55 # is there any reason GPIOD_PIN(7) = (1<<7); wont work too early in the boot sequence? 13.15.15 # that turns the button light on, I;ve put that pretty much at the strat of init() and it isnt happening 13.15.33 # so, is there any memory issues which could cause the binary to just cause the loader to crash?> 13.15.54 # Zagor:the tickless system needs to react to changing latency demands, though 13.16.16 # JdGordon: You need to configure pin direction most probably 13.16.28 # kugel: of course. it's just a more efficient way to run a timer. 13.16.36 # sure 13.16.50 # it needs to be implemented :) 13.17.41 # wodz: that macro isnt enough? 13.19.14 # kugel: and, more importantly, thoroughly tested. that's why I thought adding a quick fix for raaa was a quicker solution. it's also much more important on raaa than hardware targets. 13.20.11 # \o/ progress 13.20.23 # the 3 states I proposed should be relatively simple to implement, but it's not truly tickless 13.20.43 # your quick fix breaks code that depends on the tick/TIMER_AFTER/TIME_BEFORE etc 13.20.59 # JdGordon: usually you need to setup pin direction first (in separate register associated with the port) and than you are free to change pin level 13.20.59 # what raaa code does that? 13.21.24 # we're idle. nothing happens or is going to happen. we can just as well just freeze time. 13.21.32 # * JdGordon got a visible data abort 13.21.37 # did you double check that assumption? 13.21.55 # can you think of a case? 13.22.07 # there is code that depends on this. I can't tell you all the places or if they're active in RaaA 13.22.09 # we don't do much mathematical code proofs here :) 13.22.32 # we shouldn't have misbehaving macros, still 13.23.21 # I don't see how that is relevant to my fix 13.23.32 # fix/hack 13.23.44 # stopping the tick makes e.g. TIME_AFTER wrong 13.23.56 # why? 13.24.01 # time has *stopped* 13.24.24 # time doesn't stop 13.24.36 # I just did 13.24.53 # we don't do wall-clock in rockbox, other than in the status bar. 13.25.37 # to be clear: I'm against this hack, because it's a) a hack which breaks sensible assumptions and b) it's android specific 13.26.13 # I disagree your assumptions are sensible 13.26.15 # I don't think we need this kind of code in our repo 13.26.58 # uh, what kind of statement is that??? 13.27.34 # the problem it tries to solve isn't bad enough to warrant such hacks IMO 13.28.07 # "the rockbox app drains battery" isn't bad enough to fix? 13.28.26 # you're wrong, TIME_BEFORE/AFTER isnt used anywhere tick time matters 13.28.30 # nobody so far reported stronger battery drain, in contrast the battery life is better since rockbox doesn't eat as much for decoding 13.28.54 # kugel: I reported it. and proved it. 13.29.14 # and whole problem is that we drain battery when the user thinks he has turned *off* the app. 13.29.20 # proved by looking at the 2% cpu usage? 13.29.34 # did you actually measure the battery life? 13.29.42 # what is wrong with you? 13.30.03 # the app is closed. we should not be running *at all*! 13.31.01 # then we should just exit entirely 13.31.21 # though, that's also not the best solution because of the large startup time 13.31.32 # exactly. we should just stop running. 13.39.24 # ok, so not having commit access does suck... can someone quickly commit a major fuckup fix? 13.39.49 # sure, just pastebin it 13.40.02 Join Thra11 [0] (~thrall@163.166.pn.adsl.brightview.com) 13.40.42 # http://pastebin.com/9VkP49is 13.41.13 # I'm not sure that will be hit but it for sure a bug :) 13.44.24 # New commit by 03zagor (r30716): Only alloc if necessary. Patch by Jonathan Gordon. 13.45.33 Quit hilbert (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 13.45.47 Quit mortalis (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13.46.15 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@adsl-89-217-75-41.adslplus.ch) 13.46.42 # not quite :) That stopped it crashing if someone gave a font_id which hadnt been allocated, or during searching a font id was unloaded and the font requested didnt have that glyph 13.47.23 # heh, almost :) 13.47.45 # so yeah, unlikely to be hit but good to check for anyway 13.48.04 # char *foo[10] would be equivilant to char foo[40] right? 13.48.16 # yes 13.48.22 # the * was there accidentaly... hmm.. 13.48.31 # size-wise, that is 13.48.43 # im getting a crash somewhere after show_splash, so getting somewhere at least 13.48.46 # not ery helpful though 13.50.15 # r30716 build result: 0 errors, 7 warnings (zagor committed) 13.50.30 # kugel, Zagor: I don't think a tickless design (or even variable tick) would work on native targets, especially not on the older ones 13.50.52 # amiconn: due to the polling needed? 13.51.06 # The tick is our only timekeeping method, and the SoCs don't have alternative methods of timekeeping like desktop CPUs 13.51.27 # tickless timer doesn't mean we lose track of time 13.51.36 # Hmm? 13.51.38 # only that we increment different amounts each "tick" 13.52.01 # Variable timer will also be difficult and prone to drift/ losing time 13.52.45 # actually there is a case to be made that variable timer is *more* accurate since we don't do as many 13.53.45 # but as I've said I think it's more a "nice to have" thing on hardware targets. we don't sit idle for long times on them, as opposed to raaa. 13.53.55 # Atm we're using the timers in repeat mode. This is inherently reliable and quite stable. Allowed interrupt latency is up to a little less than a tick interval 13.54.18 # If you want it variable, you need single shot, and then latencies add up 13.54.26 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 13.54.46 # why would you have more latency with single shot? 13.55.24 # because the time between the irq and the setup of the new timer interval is unknown 13.55.46 # You get the interrupt, enter the isr (possibly after some delay if either a higher prio interrupt is being serviced, or interrupts were disabled), then reprogram the timer 13.55.55 # in repeat mode the time spent in the handler doesn't add to the timer interval 13.55.55 # right, very true 13.56.17 # You have no means to track the time between the interrupt being triggered and actually being processed 13.57.12 # I dont think that drift is a problem 13.58.02 # That depends how often you reprogram the tick 13.58.18 # If you do it every cycle, it very much is 13.58.44 # If you're running in repeat mode and only change the tick frequency every now and then, it might be okay 13.58.56 # we can minimize the drift by always using reload, and compensate for how long the timer has run when reprogramming it. then we lose only a few timer clocks 13.59.03 # amiconn: that was my proposal 13.59.57 # but even in one-shot, a drift of a few nanoseconds once every few (worst case being ten) milliseconds doesnt sound problematic 13.59.58 # We're already doing something similar on coldfire when boosting/ unboosting. Sinec the timer is running on core clock, we have to reprogram the prescaler in order to keep the timer frequency constant 14.00.26 # But there we're using repeat mode, and we don't reset the timer itself 14.01.21 # LinusN: on newer targets the timer auto-reload even 14.01.33 # LinusN: That only works reliably if you can read the timer value in an atomic operation. Not sure whether this is possible on all SoCs 14.01.34 # IIUC 14.01.56 Join benedikt93 [0] (~benedikt9@unaffiliated/benedikt93) 14.03.39 # tickless on hw is a red herring. I only want to stop the idle cpu use on raaa. 14.05.13 # Idle poweroff? 14.06.15 # almost. but we only want to do it when the app is closed/minimised 14.06.49 # and it should be able to resume without having to reload/restart 14.06.53 # idlepoweroff works as epected 14.07.23 # Zagor: you think that's better than exiting entirely and restarting? 14.07.35 # what is? 14.07.41 # I think exiting entirely would be best combined with faster startup time 14.08.07 # no, we must be able to resume to where the app was closed. and fast. 14.08.16 # think phone call 14.08.39 # phone call works right nwo 14.08.51 # yes, but is using 2% cpu 14.10.06 # unloading the app from ram as soon as the user goes to the home screen or anohter app is just silly 14.10.30 # we should just stop running until the user brings us back (or android unloads us) 14.10.52 # why is that so strange to you? 14.11.04 # it's not 14.12.01 # but with really fast startup time (like 200ms) we can even unload from ram 14.12.17 # but we don't want to. there is no reason why we'd do that. 14.12.32 # why wouldn't we want to do that? 14.12.36 # freeing unused ram is a good thing 14.12.46 # if it comes without drawback 14.12.48 # because it is a lot of unnecessary work and wait? 14.13.23 # what wait? 14.13.28 # plus we don't save the state enough to come back exactly where we were in menus, database or file browser for instance 14.13.41 # you just said 200ms 14.14.09 # 200ms is effectively instant 14.14.30 # and completely unnecessary 14.14.37 # will you stop this nonsense? 14.14.44 # the screen transistion animation takes longer than this 14.15.29 Join matze` [0] (~pflaume@p5498AA1D.dip.t-dialin.net) 14.15.47 # will do 14.15.51 # still, it's 200ms that the cpu can spend doing better things 14.18.35 # on another note, I'm unhappy about the current trend of ignoring warnings introduced in commits. we want a clean green build table, people! 14.19.46 # disable that build client :) 14.20.21 # yeah, punish every build client that dares produce warnings. that'll tech em! ;) 14.20.25 Quit petur (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14.25.00 Quit factor (Quit: Leaving) 14.25.22 # was buflib ever properly tested on low mem targets? 14.25.38 Quit Jak_o_Shadows1 (Remote host closed the connection) 14.26.12 # well, I tested a bit on my clipv1 14.26.33 # anyway, buflib alone didn't increase memory usage 14.27.01 # i also tested on hwcodec 14.27.36 Join [Saint_AndChat] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 14.27.47 # ok, was allocing largeish blocks and having things moved around tested properly on low mem targets? 14.28.52 Nick [Saint_AndChat] is now known as [Saint_] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 14.28.58 # I think there's a problem in the shrink_callback if it actually runs oom. are you hitting this? 14.29.19 # but you'd need to alloc like 500k on lowmem to hit this 14.29.21 Nick [Saint_] is now known as [Saint__] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 14.29.28 # i dont know what I'm hitting 14.29.44 # for some reason im crahsing in viewportmnaager_init() during boot 14.30.18 # did you try a sim configured with very low memory? 14.31.58 # si works fine 14.36.44 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 14.37.29 Quit [Saint__] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 14.40.47 Join ScaV [0] (~ScaV@212.232.36.93) 14.42.46 # hi, where i can see RockBox daily build's changelog? 14.43.04 # ScaV: svn changelog is on the frontpage 14.44.01 # wodz: ah, sorry for stupid question.. 14.44.12 # np 14.45.01 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~LemonBoy@ppp-31-8.26-151.libero.it) 14.48.46 Join WalkGood [0] (~4@unaffiliated/walkgood) 14.52.01 # My iPod nano 2g hangs when I select an album from the picture flow. But if you open the album, which is now played, then everything is OK. 14.52.24 Join Llorean1 [0] (~DarkkOne@99-68-45-56.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) 14.54.38 Quit Llorean (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 14.58.00 Nick Llorean1 is now known as Llorean (~DarkkOne@99-68-45-56.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) 14.58.11 Quit Llorean (Changing host) 14.58.11 Join Llorean [0] (~DarkkOne@rockbox/user/Llorean) 15.03.18 # Zagor: sorry if I was harsh or something. it's just that I would like to see a solution which is beneficial for more targets than android 15.05.20 Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15.05.44 Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) 15.09.32 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) 15.13.05 # anyone done an ipod manual restore recently? 15.16.06 # JdGordon: Why is "recently" relevant? 15.16.57 # I guess it isnt, just figured they'd be more likely to remember the steps 15.17.25 # the wiki instructions dont seem to be working for me 15.29.01 # woohoo! took long enough, back in buisness 15.30.19 # So, was there something wrong with the steps? 15.33.22 Join God_Eater [0] (93722cc8@rockbox/staff/GodEater) 15.44.23 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5) 15.45.08 Join fatline [0] (~fatline@pool-108-27-113-221.nycmny.east.verizon.net) 15.52.06 Join [Saint_] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 15.54.30 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 15.56.29 Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15.56.55 Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) 16.01.02 Quit hilbert (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 16.08.07 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@89.217.203.0) 16.12.57 Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) 16.13.28 Quit fatline (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 16.24.59 Join krey_ [0] (~krey@stu171.sjc.ox.ac.uk) 16.26.16 Quit hilbert (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 16.26.54 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@89.217.203.0) 16.28.52 # hello, I've submitted a bug report (http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12313), and I read that chances of it getting any attention are greatly increased by irc presence, so here I am, anyone interested in helping? 16.32.05 Quit ScaV (Remote host closed the connection) 16.32.28 Quit [Saint_] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 16.32.37 Part LinusN 16.34.58 Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)) 16.37.25 Join [Saint_] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 16.38.38 Quit Topy44 (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 16.40.30 # krey_: When you say "the problem persists in disk mode" do you mean when booting into the dedicated disk mode? 16.41.04 Join othniel [0] (~6c4ecf31@www.haxx.se) 16.41.43 Join Topy44 [0] (~Topy44@f049103045.adsl.alicedsl.de) 16.42.19 # New commit by 03zagor (r30717): Changed #warning to a TODO comment. 16.43.56 Quit othniel (Client Quit) 16.44.29 Join othniel [0] (~6c4ecf31@www.haxx.se) 16.44.29 # Llorean: yes 16.45.56 Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) 16.45.58 Quit othniel (Client Quit) 16.46.55 Quit mikroflops (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 16.47.46 # r30717 build result: 0 errors, 6 warnings (zagor committed) 16.48.21 Part Zagor 16.50.28 Join mikroflops [0] (~yogurt@h-34-156.a238.priv.bahnhof.se) 16.51.50 # krey_: That's Apple code. If that's not working, it's not a Rockbox bug you're experiencing. 16.52.48 Join othniel [0] (~othniel@adsl-108-78-207-49.dsl.snantx.sbcglobal.net) 17.02.17 Quit [Saint_] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 17.02.35 Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 17.09.03 Join 31NAACFM5 [0] (~powell14s@c-174-51-194-6.hsd1.co.comcast.net) 17.10.13 # Llorean: but it worked before I installed rockbox. should I uninstall it and see if I can mount in disk-mode? 17.11.18 # Llorean: I think it might be connected to this issue: http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/10873 17.11.23 # krey_: You can do that, but disk mode really is something that's run outside of Rockbox. If it's not working, there's not something Rockbox can do about it. 17.11.52 # krey_: That report notes it *does* work in disk mode. 17.12.37 # Llorean: "the device does work as a HID" <-- I think this might be the problem 17.13.07 # Disk Mode doesn't involve any Rockbox code. Including the HID code, which isn't even loaded off the disk at that point. 17.21.15 # Llorean: I fixed the issue by reinstalling rockbox. thanks for you for helping 17.22.02 Join y4n [0] (y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx) 17.22.12 Join Rob2222 [0] (~Miranda@p5DE4BBEB.dip.t-dialin.net) 17.22.54 Part WalkGood 17.24.04 Quit Rob2223 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17.24.05 Join fatline [0] (~fatline@dyn-209-2-219-79.dyn.columbia.edu) 17.26.10 Quit Thra11 (Read error: Operation timed out) 17.27.00 Quit GeekShadow (Remote host closed the connection) 17.30.03 Join Thra11 [0] (~thrall@140.62.125.91.rb3.adsl.brightview.com) 17.38.37 Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC) 17.43.16 Quit [Saint] (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 17.44.11 Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 17.46.35 Nick [Saint] is now known as Guest10213 (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 17.54.04 Quit Guest10213 (Quit: AndChat - Android IRC Client - http://www.andchat.net/) 17.54.15 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) 17.54.32 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 17.55.02 Quit krey_ (Remote host closed the connection) 17.55.53 Quit petur (Quit: *plop*) 17.56.51 Quit tchan (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5) 17.57.05 Join swilde [0] (~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org) 17.57.10 # On the FeatureComparison wiki page will someone add "FM Recording codec/samplerate/kbps" in Other features section -- after "Radio Recording" (should be FM Radio Recording imho) My Stock e280v2 records FM in .WAV the codec is pcm_s16le/24000 stereo/768kbps according to ffmpeg. 353,894,400 bytes per hour. Whereas my e280v1 has rockbox and can record in MP3. Or you may want to break the change out into several lines: FM re 17.57.12 # cord file format, FM record codec, FM record samplerate, FM record kpbs, This would help people compute Maximum FM record time considering the DAP capacity/record velocity -- not battery life. Or your could put a line for max time also. An 8GB stock firmware e280v2 then gives 22.6 hours FM record time at 768 kbps. Not good. Rockbox FM record time at 128 kbps MP3 gives 135 hours. For lecture recording, I prefer the 8kHz s 17.57.14 # ampled adpcm_ima_wav codec stereo (64 kbps), but the Sansa e280 has better battery life than the Chinese S1mp3 that records in that format. FFmpeg can be used to convert recording into SPEEX or AMR or G.729. 17.57.16 # Also, who can I talk to about .m4b support in rockbox? Those containers have an AAC audio stream and PNG artwork that changes every few minutes. I can provide samples or a download link. Wouldn't think it would be much effort. 17.58.30 Join n1s [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/n1s) 18.01.35 Join GermanMushroom [0] (~c@s5146db6a.adsl.wanadoo.nl) 18.02.00 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@vit94-1-82-67-248-70.fbx.proxad.net) 18.02.00 Quit pamaury (Changing host) 18.02.00 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 18.02.04 # I don't have write access and I suggest a footnote on "FM Radio Recording" It should say only on Iriver H3x0, Sansa e200v1/v2, Sansa c200/m, etc. I found a FAQ with that info but it is way buried. 18.05.44 # Maybe MP3 Realtime Encoding and Wavpack Realtime Encoding should be moved down under FM Radio and Voice Recording? 18.08.22 Join mortalis [0] (~4d6c62b0@www.haxx.se) 18.08.24 # othniel: you can get access to change the wiki if you want 18.09.12 # ok but I dont want to get fussed at for making a lot of changes. 18.09.23 # I want to run them by somebody first. 18.09.45 # I'll register 18.10.13 # what do I do / where? 18.11.44 # othniel: click the deit link on a wiki page and cancel the login prompt and then fill out the reg form, come in here and promise not to spam and someone will give you write access 18.11.50 # s/deit/edit 18.12.17 # Filling out Wiki main Registration now. 18.14.32 # the feature comparison page has not been updated for most our targets btw 18.17.23 # much of the info in the first table seems very archos centric 18.17.43 # and a lot of it is outdated for even those 18.18.35 # haha, we have "Corrects reported bugs" checked as "Yes" for rockbox :) 18.19.24 # there's also duplication between the two tables 18.20.12 # IMO the first table should go away and if anything usefull is in it that's missing from the other table it should be added in there instead 18.20.12 Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP) 18.20.41 # we should probably remove that feature comparison until someone makes a new one 18.21.18 # I like the feature comparison 18.21.35 # It is for folks who are wanting to get into rockbox 18.21.49 # and learn what it is -- quickly 18.21.51 # yeah but its so old its basically useless :) 18.22.00 # I will fix it. 18.22.11 # and organize it 18.22.11 Quit GermanMushroom (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18.22.15 # This is a better page to improve, I think: http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/WhyRockbox 18.22.17 # saratoga: any comments on the patch i posted in FS#11856 18.22.18 # http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/11856 3Set of ogg vorbis files will not play (bugs, unconfirmed) 18.22.34 # n1s: i never figured out a good work around, so if yours works go for it 18.23.07 # it's a fairly ugly hack but seems to work fine 18.23.14 # othniel: should probably split it into an archos comparison page, and a comparison page for everything else 18.23.24 # and then don't mention specific models 18.23.47 # since aside from archos, most everything else is pretty similar 18.25.11 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@rouxbicon.rh.uchicago.edu) 18.26.49 # How long until I receive the email confirmation? 18.29.10 # I am looking for a place to detail FM recording. 18.29.25 # I will put some on 'WhyRockbox' 18.29.59 # but the other seemed as good as any place I could find. 18.30.04 # uh, the email ,ight not come there's been some trouble with that 18.30.20 # I am interested not in recording music, but lectures/seminars 18.30.43 # recording it in AMR, SPEEX or similar voice codecs and 18.30.50 # of course playback. 18.31.03 # not 320Kbps mp3 18.32.23 # The Buyers Guide is the only place that says what hardware you need to purchase to do FM recording with rockbox. 18.32.28 # does anyone remember if the wiki registration works even without the mail? 18.32.40 # I put my email in. 18.32.47 # oh 18.33.04 # yeah, but the registration confirmations never arrive 18.33.44 # othniel: try now 18.33.49 # to log in 18.34.19 Join domonoky [0] (~Domonoky@rockbox/developer/domonoky) 18.34.40 # dont know where 18.34.54 # othniel: click edit on any wiki page 18.35.07 # omg 18.37.09 # I'm in 18.37.20 Join Buschel [0] (~chatzilla@p54B67D55.dip.t-dialin.net) 18.37.25 Quit Thra11 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 18.37.25 # I'm good with HTML 18.45.30 Join Jerom [0] (~jerome@79.132.42.48) 18.49.30 Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18.49.55 Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) 18.50.00 Quit ej0rge (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 18.50.10 Join [Saint] [0] (~Saint]@101.98.129.152) 18.50.53 Join ej0rge [0] (~alhaz@207.135.137.71) 18.51.30 Join Thra11 [0] (~thrall@46.208.114.82) 18.52.23 Quit swilde (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 18.55.21 Join freddyb [0] (~freddybbb@216.8.239.112.etczone.com) 18.58.34 Join GermanMushroom [0] (~c@s5146db6a.adsl.wanadoo.nl) 18.59.51 Quit mortalis (Quit: CGI:IRC) 19.00.40 Join kadoban [0] (~kadoban@ip98-165-177-158.ph.ph.cox.net) 19.02.05 Quit n1s (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 19.04.23 # How bad is it to block all font relocations while reloading the skin data? It fixes some crashes for me related to switching themes... I put a patch on FS#12298. 19.04.23 # http://www.rockbox.org/tracker/task/12298 3no display / fatal error on Sansa Clip (bugs, new) 19.04.43 # It didn't fix the Clip problem, tho. 19.05.42 # freddyb: that means the move callback is still incorrect, no? 19.08.21 Join RansomTime [0] (~RT@wikia/vstf/Randomtime) 19.08.33 # I don't think so. I think it has more to do with some (struct font *) that's not forgotten outside of font.c but I haven't found it. I don't know much about viewports, scrolling text, etc. 19.09.30 # I see 19.09.48 # Or maybe some other memory pointer is not updated and a font is moved into its area. 19.10.10 # what's left using struct font*? wasn't most access just for the font height and that replaced by a wrapper function? 19.10.42 # I guess I shall commit the debug alloc patch 19.14.02 # I haven't really found much that uses *pf's but what i found I locked in the patch on the FS. If I knew the skin engine better I would try delaying the repaint until the allocations are done. 19.14.56 # freddyb: pretty sure it doesn't draw during allocations 19.15.09 # allocs are made in the parse-phase 19.15.39 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@ip117-49-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) 19.15.39 Quit bertrik (Changing host) 19.15.39 Join bertrik [0] (~bertrik@rockbox/developer/bertrik) 19.19.13 Quit ChickeNES (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 19.21.06 Quit [Saint] (Remote host closed the connection) 19.30.48 Join Horscht [0] (~Horscht@p57B575C0.dip.t-dialin.net) 19.30.49 Quit Horscht (Changing host) 19.30.49 Join Horscht [0] (~Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht) 19.31.16 Join fyrestorm [0] (~nnscript@cpe-24-90-84-81.nyc.res.rr.com) 19.34.37 Quit GermanMushroom (Quit: Ik ga weg) 19.37.14 # ok I'm having problems saving my changes. 19.37.24 # First set of changes worked fine 19.37.40 # I tried to save up a few and do them together. 19.38.03 # but preview could not render html links properly. 19.38.24 # I saved and tried to make more changes -- now it rejects my attempts. 19.38.42 # Links on the wiki don't work like normal html IIRC 19.39.04 # It is something like [[Text][http://link...]] IIRC 19.40.11 # Hm. I just noticed that rockbox does not seem to know the concept of a null pointer exception. That'll take some getting used to. 19.40.28 # Oh, other way around 19.40.39 # So I have to put [] around the whole thing and alternate text inside and link inside with extra sets of [] 19.40.50 # You do [[link][text]] 19.40.58 # Have a look at the source of another page 19.41.08 # But it isn't html 19.41.29 # Yeah this page is full of Sorry, I didn't mean not at all 19.42.08 # but have a look at http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/System/TextFormattingRules 19.43.54 # New commit by 03kugel (r30718): Revert r30599 "Check for the magic file "/.rockbox/skin_buffer_size.txt" [...]" ... 19.44.27 # /usr/bin/rcs -o%REVISION|N% %FILENAME|F% of .../Main/FeatureComparison.txt failed: 19.44.31 # Go back in your browser and save your changes locally. 19.46.41 # r30718 build result: 0 errors, 2 warnings (kugel committed) 19.47.26 # hm, my build client quite bumped in the ranking 19.49.10 # Attention: Error saving topic During save of Main.FeatureComparison an error was found by the version control system. Please notify your Wiki administrator. 19.49.18 # What do I do now? 19.50.25 # othniel: Try again, or wait until Zagor is around and ask him if he has any idea 19.54.29 Quit antil33t (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19.54.34 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 19.54.56 Join antil33t [0] (~antil33t@203-100-223-143.callplus.net.nz) 19.55.24 # When you say try again. Do I just hit the back button on the browser and press save changes. or start over and hit edit make the change and press save... 19.56.09 # I don't know 19.58.08 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@207.144.201.128) 19.58.42 # didnt JdGordon have a lcd_puts* overhaul patch somewhere? 20.01.27 Quit hilbert (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 20.02.54 Quit bluefoxx (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 20.05.09 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@89.217.203.0) 20.18.42 Quit freddyb (Quit: Leaving) 20.25.37 Join tchan [0] (~tchan@lunar-linux/developer/tchan) 20.27.56 Quit mudd1 (Quit: Ex-Chat) 20.28.25 Join thomasjfox [0] (~thomasjfo@rockbox/developer/thomasjfox) 20.29.05 Quit saratoga (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 20.32.21 # New commit by 03kugel (r30719): core_alloc: Provide a tiny test allocation, which can be freed for debug purposes. ... 20.32.45 # the above exposes a crash in the font code 20.34.51 # r30719 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (kugel committed) 20.38.07 # in an sdl-app 320x480 build at least 20.38.26 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@rouxbicon.rh.uchicago.edu) 20.43.20 Quit ChickeNES (Client Quit) 20.46.16 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@128.135.100.103) 20.54.54 # right. the font move callback is fine, but something else corrupts the cache 21.01.16 Quit Jerom (Quit: Leaving.) 21.06.26 Join Thra11_ [0] (~thrall@84.93.185.230) 21.09.35 Quit Thra11 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21.12.39 Quit ChickeNES (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 21.21.47 Quit soap_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21.23.21 Join GermanMushroom [0] (~c@s5146db6a.adsl.wanadoo.nl) 21.23.26 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 21.23.27 Join Zagor [242] (~bjst@rockbox/developer/Zagor) 21.24.31 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@149.254.60.34) 21.25.12 # Zagor I was told to talk to you about wiki updates that are not being accepted by rcs 21.25.46 # that sounds bad! 21.25.56 # what does it say? 21.26.14 # I make some cnanges and try to save. 21.26.43 # it works sometimes and sometimes it dont. Is it me or the system? 21.27.15 # I would like the exact error message, if possible 21.27.36 # othniel: /usr/bin/rcs -o%REVISION|N% %FILENAME|F% of .../Main/FeatureComparison.txt failed: 21.27.38 # othniel: 21.27.40 # othniel: Go back in your browser and save your changes locally. 21.27.55 # yikes 21.28.11 # And then it decides to work 21.28.16 # Zagor: that makes me yike just because it includes the word "rcs" :-) 21.28.18 # so I make some more changes a 21.28.24 # yeah 21.28.24 # ukleinek: hehe 21.28.35 # i thought it was svn 21.28.53 # and when I save no workee 21.34.53 # It just worked for me. 21.35.13 # What did you do Zagor? 21.35.26 # nothing 21.35.32 # thinking about upgrading :) 21.35.44 # Thanks -- next time I ask I want you to do the same thing... 21.36.09 # great. I'll keep thinking about it :) 21.36.21 # Its just intermittent 21.36.44 # I wonder if checkins have something locked. 21.36.50 # yeah. there's a number of odd issues with the wiki. maybe some are fixed in the later version. 21.36.52 # in the WIKI 21.37.18 # Like my changes in the Firmware Feature Comparison Page? 21.37.47 Quit Thra11_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21.39.57 Quit GermanMushroom (Quit: Ik ga weg) 21.45.14 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21.46.19 # othniel: Has it told you that you are suspicious yet? 21.46.35 # Oh yeah 21.46.51 # I dont think I am. 21.47.01 # No, it tends to tell everyone they are :) 21.47.15 # I thought it was funny.... 21.47.27 # Of course it is probably right in many cases, although for the wrong reasons 21.47.35 # Do YOU like my changes? 21.47.45 # Its a bot 21.47.52 # what do they know? 21.49.10 # I just keep trying out new changes in the preview until the commit takes. 21.52.52 Join Thra11_ [0] (~thrall@84.93.185.230) 21.54.37 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 21.57.18 Join ChickeNES [0] (~ChickeNES@128.135.100.102) 21.57.35 # don't we support m4b files? I thought that was just m4a flagged "resume enable"? 21.57.57 # Zagor: Some of them have chapters, we don't support the chapters. 21.58.20 # The m4b files I have contain artwork 21.58.45 # They are aac audio with png graphics which changes every 5 minutes 21.58.50 # or so 21.59.12 # Yes they are bookmarkable but when rockbox hits the png in the data stream 21.59.40 # it doesnt throw it away or display it -- it aborts playback and goes to the next track. 22.00.20 # Usually the artwork is early in the podcast/magazine 22.00.27 # so no listen 22.01.10 # Rockbox is rather picky with the AAC files it supports. They need to be optimized for streaming (which involves moving all the metadata to the front). It sounds like those aren't. 22.01.31 Quit Llorean (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22.01.40 # Ok so I still have a use for my Ipod classic. 22.02.29 Join Llorean [0] (~DarkkOne@99-68-45-56.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) 22.02.37 Quit Llorean (Changing host) 22.02.37 Join Llorean [0] (~DarkkOne@rockbox/user/Llorean) 22.02.52 # yeah my m4b have chapters to separate the articles in the magazine. 22.02.54 Quit Horscht (Quit: Verlassend) 22.03.15 Quit hilbert (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 22.05.02 # wohoo, ftp.gnu.org added the symlink 22.05.49 # now rockboxdev.sh works again 22.06.01 # Good news! 22.06.12 Join Horscht [0] (~Horscht@xbmc/user/horscht) 22.06.51 # I guess you were commenting on my flagging of no .m4b support in the FeatureComparison -- changed to "No chapter support" 22.07.03 Quit y4n (Quit: Today is the perfect day for a perfect day.) 22.08.28 # yes 22.08.48 # no PNG support either Right? 22.09.32 Join kadoban [0] (~kadoban@ip98-165-177-158.ph.ph.cox.net) 22.10.05 # no support for anything in the middle of the files 22.11.04 # Rockbox only supports BMP and JPEG album art, and only JPEG as embedded art. 22.11.13 # That's covered in the manual. 22.11.57 # Would the mp4player handle it? 22.12.15 # I don't even know what you mean by "the mp4player" 22.12.29 # Its a plugin for some targets 22.13.27 # See rockbox extras 22.14.10 # I don't see anything called "mp4player" on the extras page. 22.14.10 Quit kadoban (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 22.14.26 # Do you mean mpeg player? 22.14.32 # yep 22.14.38 # That's completely unrelated to mp4. 22.14.48 # It's a video player that plays mpeg 1 and mpeg 2 video. 22.15.02 # It really helps if you use the proper names of things. 22.15.43 # Yes that is one of my pet peeves also, But an m4b is just like a mpeg movie. 22.15.57 # Except it is mostly audio with pictures 22.16.09 # not moving pictures either. 22.16.37 # there are many different types of "mpeg movies 22.16.38 # An m4b is an AAC stream in an MP4 container. 22.16.49 Quit thomasjfox (Remote host closed the connection) 22.17.07 # That's a different type of audio, a different type of container, and no video whatsoever compared to MPEG1/MPEG2 movies. 22.17.20 # The only similarity is that both are part of the MPEG umbrella. 22.17.28 # ok but from where I sit they are similar. 22.17.56 # Yet rockbox supports one and not the other 22.18.14 Quit user890104 (Read error: Operation timed out) 22.18.21 # MP3 is more similar to MP4 than MPEG1 video files are. 22.18.28 Join user890104 [0] (~Venci@static.225.178.40.188.clients.your-server.de) 22.19.00 Join RedWork [0] (~dmaker@205.204.35.2) 22.19.11 # The .m4b files I was asking about have an AAC audio stream and PNG images every 3 to 5 minutes. 22.19.15 # Rockbox plays AAC audio in MP4 containers just fine as long as the metadata is optimized for streaming. 22.19.25 # It would be nice to listen to them 22.19.33 # .m4b files are just AAC in MP4, but the ones you're describing have metadata that gets in the way 22.19.45 # Better to actually show the images as they are encountered in the stream. 22.19.48 # Run it through an app like MP4box that fixes the metadata and they ought to play 22.20.48 # I know how to use ffmpeg command line, but I'd like to see the images as they are encountered. 22.20.54 # Then fix it. 22.20.56 # It's open source. 22.21.15 # I'd love to. 22.21.18 # It's more work than you seem to think it is, and there's very little interest in actually *doing* the work from the people, like you, who want it done. 22.21.18 # afternoon folks 22.21.24 # I'm trying to get up to speed. 22.21.44 # I'm attempting to load RB on a Toshiba GigaBeat S, following the instructions here: http://download.rockbox.org/daily/manual/rockbox-gigabeats/rockbox-buildch2.html#x4-110002.2.2 22.21.58 Join LinusN [0] (~linus@giant.haxx.se) 22.22.08 # othniel: Part of the trouble is is that while there is a work around, not many of the devs are going to put the time into something they don't use 22.22.24 # I get as far as beastloader saying it's complete and rebooting, but it comes up in toshiba recovery mode, not BR mass storage 22.22.33 # beastpatcher? 22.22.35 # othniel: First, someone would need to add support for PNG album art in general. 22.22.38 # I've tried hard rebooting with the battery switch 22.22.45 # othniel: Then they'd need to fix the MP4 parser to deal with mid-file metadata 22.22.49 # Right. I'm getting a Sansa Fuze+ this week 22.22.52 # alexp, yes, beastpatcher.exe 22.22.53 # othniel: Then they'd probably also have to fix it to deal with exceedingly long files. 22.22.59 # Llorean: image viewer supports png IIRC, so at least we have some code 22.23.05 # But not in core 22.23.08 # AlexP: Yes. 22.23.10 # I've got e280v1 (3) and 2 e280v2 22.23.30 # RedWork: Are you trying to use the single or dual boot bootloader? 22.23.43 # An Ipod Classic 80GB 22.23.47 # single, I've no use for the original firmware 22.23.54 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 22.24.09 # RedWork: Try dual 22.24.21 # alexp, alright, I'll give it a try 22.24.23 # RedWork: The Toshiba bootloader can be very randomly picky 22.24.33 # RedWork: And it seems to have fewer problems with dual 22.24.49 # Yeah, a lot of people seem to have better luck with dual boot than single boot, with certain versions of the Toshiba firmware. 22.24.59 # RedWork: For some people single is fine, others have problems. For all those that have had problems with single, dual has worked 22.25.00 # alexP, i've gotten that impression (picky), but didn't know dual was less so 22.25.13 # thanks for the help, I'll give it a try 22.25.20 # fingers crossed :) 22.26.04 # yeah 22.30.15 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@genld-218-248.t-mobile.co.uk) 22.33.55 # alright, the link for MESV12US.zip is 404, so nk.bin is looking to be difficult to get 22.34.51 Quit Stummi (Quit: Bye!) 22.40.19 # AlexP you still there? I've reorganized the Feature Comparison page to present information more clearly. Any feedback? 22.40.27 # one mo 22.41.42 Quit benedikt93 (Quit: Bye ;)) 22.42.22 Join Jerom [0] (~jerome@79.132.42.48) 22.42.27 # othniel: looks fine to me 22.42.52 Quit ChickeNES (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 22.42.54 # I think the biggest issue there is the difficulty of comparing RB to the vast number of different OFs 22.43.03 # Lot of missing tags on footnote refs 22.43.18 # It might be even worth dropping the comparison part and just expanding/merging with WhyRockbox 22.43.18 Join GeekShadow [0] (~antoine@254.164.21.93.rev.sfr.net) 22.43.45 # Yes but this page is just a general info for newer users to get them interested in Rockbox. 22.43.59 # That's the intent of the WhyRockbox page. 22.44.16 # Exactly 22.44.29 # WhyRockbox is the one we link from the front page 22.44.43 # Quite a lot of it is duplicated between the two too 22.44.54 # othniel: Thanks for working on this by the way 22.44.57 # The wiki is a mess 22.45.34 # Hey I'm an unemployed software developer that uses Rockbox. I should have helped a long time ago. 22.46.08 # well late is better than never :) 22.47.18 # I will continue to help. But I'll probably help with the Fuze+ port when I get mine. 22.49.01 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@89.217.203.0) 22.50.21 Quit robin0800 (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22.53.50 Join n1s [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/n1s) 22.57.26 # A question on 10.1 in the manual. What are the kbps for PCM wave, AIFF, wavpack and mp3 the last being a function of sampling rate? 22.58.44 # I'm not sure what you mean 22.58.51 # othniel: I don't follow 22.59.24 # PCM and AIFF have a bitrate determined by bit depth and sample rate. On most players I guess that'll be 1411kbps. 22.59.25 # when you type in ffmpeg -i file it tells you what the kbps for the file 22.59.36 # wavpack's bitrate is entirely dependent on the content being recorded, since it's lossless compression. 22.59.46 # and wav and aiff are fixed 22.59.51 # mp3 you can chose 22.59.52 # also tells you the codec container stereo or not sampling rate etc 22.59.56 # MP3's bitrate is up to the user. 23.00.09 # Wav is not fixed 23.00.10 # you are recording here 23.00.20 # othniel: WAV is fixed based on sample rate and bit depth. 23.00.27 # You set the bitrate you want the mp3 to record at 23.00.30 # For each combination thereof, there is only one bitrate a wave file will be. 23.00.31 # I have one recorder which does 768kbps 23.00.38 # and another that does 64kbps 23.00.44 # othniel: It is, you can't chose wav bitrate 23.00.56 # Again nope it depends on the codec 23.00.58 # It is uncompressed 23.01.07 # wav is the "codec" 23.01.11 # Well, PCM is 23.01.37 # wav is the container inside is a code for which codec was used 23.01.38 # But with PCM wav files, there literally is only one bitrate per sample rate / bit depth / channels combination 23.01.48 # yeah 23.01.59 # A 44.1 khz, 16-bit, stereo PCM wav file will always be 1411kbps 23.02.07 # If you halve the sample rate, it'll halve the kbps. 23.02.08 # Etc 23.02.22 # Because it's uncompressed it's literally samples * bits per sample * channels 23.02.33 # there are some weird compressed bitstreams in some wav files though 23.02.51 # Perhaps we should say PCM WAV or something 23.02.52 # othniel: if you just say wav file everyone will assume you mean it's a pcm file 23.02.58 # 44100 * 16 * 2 = 1411200 or 1411.2kbps 23.03.22 # recode a wav file using the adpcm_ima_wav using ffmpeg and you will see that it is not true 23.03.35 # see, adpcm != pcm 23.03.55 # adpcm is different to pcm 23.03.58 # othniel: Rockbox doesn't do adpcm. 23.04.00 # I used to think that before I bought a Chinese MP3 player that stores very efficient wav recordings 23.04.02 # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADPCM 23.04.16 # so if you are talking about different ecodings, speaking of wavfiles is entirely unhelpful 23.04.16 # It isn't PCM, which is what everybody means when they say wav 23.04.28 # othniel: The manual explicitly says PCM wave. Other formats that can be in the WAV container are irrelevant 23.04.30 # They aren't supported. 23.04.47 # There's of course also the fact that some chinese mp3 files encode as mp3 but use .wav as the file extension... 23.04.47 # but it is wav and is supported by WMP 23.04.51 # I'm learning. 23.04.54 # oh, we already specify :) 23.04.58 # i think we play some of those weird wavs actually but don't record them 23.05.03 # othniel: What does WMP have to do with questions about Rockbox? 23.05.05 # othniel: but not PCM WAV 23.05.18 # othniel: You asked about the bitrate for Rockbox. I answered that it's a fixed function of sample rate, bit depth, and channels 23.05.24 # Ok im beat down. I learn fast. 23.06.10 # heh :) 23.06.39 # AIFF is uncompressed as well, and follows the same rules as PCM WAV in respect to Rockbox. 23.06.45 # Because wavpack is a lossless format, its bitrate is variable, and can't be predicted in advance. 23.06.54 # And MP3 as said, is selectable. 23.07.51 # I thought the Sansa e280v2 was bad! 23.08.02 # how so? 23.08.41 # You are saying that if I record in rockbox using WAV I will generate 1411k bps over a megabit per second? 23.08.59 # yes 23.09.01 # well 23.09.14 # You're generating that no matter what you record in. The other formats either compress it, or throw some of it away and compress it. 23.09.16 # depending on sample rate etc 23.09.16 # That is twice as large as the e280v2 OF record. 23.09.28 # Its not selectable 23.09.29 # I think the e200 is limited to 22kHz 23.09.38 # So it will be 768 kbps 23.09.38 # The e200v1 is. I don't know about the v2 23.09.42 # right 23.09.43 # But they're also mono, so that'd halve it again. 23.09.49 # yes 23.09.54 # Unless it stupidly records to stereo from a mono input. 23.10.01 # It might :) 23.10.10 # According to manual 10.2 23.10.10 # You could be recording from FM 23.10.56 # The file produced by OF is stereo. 23.11.12 # That's what I'm talking about. 23.11.37 Join saratoga [0] (98034408@gateway/web/freenode/ip.152.3.68.8) 23.11.58 # So if it is stereo, limited to 22 kHz, and 16 bit it'll be half 1441 kbps 23.12.05 # uncompressed audio is large 23.12.22 # This is why if you want to really keep everything, wavpack is a great idea 23.12.24 # othniel: I don't see what you're referring to in the e200v2 manual section 10.2 23.12.41 # rockbox manual 10.2 23.12.46 # for e200v2 23.12.48 # Literally the entirety of that section of the Rockbox manual is "This sets the bitrate when using the MPEG Layer 3 format. And has no settings for the other formats" 23.12.48 # *1411 23.13.15 # so wav has no settings for sample rate 23.13.28 # No setting for bitrate. 23.13.36 # Bitrate is not sample rate. 23.13.40 # Only mono/stereo 23.13.51 # "Sample Rate" would be section 10.3 23.14.00 # Frequency = frequency of samples, or sample rate. 23.14.08 # 10.5 is channels. 23.14.12 # I see no mention of the OF anywhere anyway. 23.14.13 # should probably be a comma rather then a period between those clauses 23.14.17 # Frequency you can set depending on what the hardware can do 23.14.26 # saratoga: yes, not great English 23.14.37 # I'll change it 23.14.41 # AlexP: According to the e200v2 manual we support 96khz down through 8khz. 23.14.44 # A pretty respectable range 23.14.50 # yeah, pretty good 23.14.54 # othniel: aside from grammar, that seems quite clear to me, do you actually have some question about what its explaining? 23.15.00 # Llorean: It must be the v1 that is limited 23.15.17 # So when I read it I assumed that wav had no settings for frequency. 23.15.23 # AlexP: Yeah, the V1 is definitely limited. 23.15.27 # "Note: The 11.025 kHz setting is not available when using MPEG Layer 3 format." -< niether is anything above 48k 23.15.40 # saratoga: General limits of MP3 I assume? 23.15.47 # yeah 23.15.57 # although i think mp3 can do 11k too, but maybe our encoder can't 23.15.58 # othniel: Why would something about bitrate choices lead you to assumptions about frequency choices? 23.16.15 # othniel: The section on frequency doesn't mention any limitations in regard to PCM Wave. 23.16.37 Part LinusN 23.16.48 # perhaps 10.2 should be renamed "10.2 Encoder Settings (MP3 only)" 23.16.49 Quit ender` (Quit: "I'm the head wizard now. I've only got to give an order and a thousand wizards will ... uh ... disobey, come to think of it, or say 'What?', or start to argue. But they have to take notice." -- Archchancellor (Terry Pratchett: Lords and Ladies)) 23.16.49 # ok if I'm wrong I'm glad. 23.17.19 # saratoga: At least for now, that may be wise. 23.17.39 # saratoga: Or perhaps since the only encoder-related setting is currently "Bitrate" just rename it to "Bitrate (MP3 only)" 23.17.54 # yeah makes sense 23.17.59 # Since some people think of frequency, channels, etc as encoder settings (even though they're really source settings) and that seems to have caused confusion here. 23.18.30 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@vit94-1-82-67-248-70.fbx.proxad.net) 23.18.30 Quit pamaury (Changing host) 23.18.30 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 23.18.38 # another idea might be to make that setting only appear in the menu when the encoder is set to mp3 23.18.47 Part Zagor 23.18.49 # trying it now it actually still exists for wav, but you can't set it, which is a bit weird 23.18.57 # bertrik: I finished the two battery benches 23.19.16 # saratoga: What does it look like if you have one of the other formats selected? 23.19.39 # its listed but if you click it you get a splash saying "no settings" 23.19.43 # OK 23.19.48 # saratoga: It might be nice if WAV could replace it with expected output bitrate based on the other options, but yeah, probably just hiding it for everything but MP3 might be nice 23.20.05 # If I change the manual does someone want to change the menu? 23.20.19 # I like "Bitrate (MP3 only)" myself 23.20.32 # anyone familiar with the menu code? i can never figure out if my changes will break something 23.20.44 # Are you thinking to make Format 1st, Frequency 2nd and Encoder 3rd on the menu? 23.21.18 # Or should Source come 1st? 23.22.33 # AlexP, that did it, thanks. 23.22.40 # RedWork: cool :) 23.22.49 # You managed to find nk.bin somewhere? 23.23.05 # a buddy of mine had it stashed somewhere 23.23.10 # cool 23.23.20 # actually had several older versions 23.23.21 # It is a shame we can't distribute it, but there you go 23.23.27 # 8k Hz sample rate * 16 bit samples * stereo gives 256k bps wav recordings? 23.23.27 # *nod* 23.23.58 # Should be, yes. 23.24.08 # thanks again, I'm out of here 23.24.12 Quit RedWork (Quit: Leaving) 23.25.37 # I can live with that. Interesting discussion. Did not know that ADPCM was not supported in rockbox. It would cut the size from 256k bps to 64k bps 23.25.57 # Can do that conversion with ffmpeg 23.26.00 # adpcm is not really that useful in recent times 23.26.10 # Then to SPEEX 23.26.16 # if you want lossy mp3 is a lot better 23.26.19 # saratoga: To change the menu name, it'd just be the lang files, no? 23.26.20 # Or straight to speex 23.26.41 # pamaury, and what is the result of the battery benches? 23.26.43 # if you want lossy use mp3, if you want lossless use wavpack 23.26.48 # AlexP: oh i was thinking of making the menu not appear if it wasn't needed 23.26.57 # wav and aiff don't have a lot of uses really 23.27.01 # saratoga: ah right :) 23.27.13 # Well renaming would be a good start I think 23.27.25 # Well I'm recording lectures so low sampling WAV is fine for me. 23.27.33 # why not use mp3 then? 23.27.36 # It'll be smaller 23.27.39 # Yeah, using wave or AIFF is just a waste of space unless you simply do not have a tool that can deal with wavpack. 23.27.43 # bertrik: 14:52:39 with svn VS 14:27:43 with the #if 1 23.27.52 # What is the battery life of mp3 recording vs Wav recording? 23.28.05 # so half an hour of difference :-/ 23.28.12 # probably depends on if you have flash or a hard disk 23.28.22 # on e280v1 or e280v2 23.28.58 # My recording are about 3.5 hours long each 23.29.29 # I don't think anyone's done any real testing on the encoder efficiencies. 23.29.32 # so bitrate is important to me to not fill up DAR 23.29.57 # Maybe I can test and post on the WIKI. 23.30.18 # New commit by 03alex (r30720): Manual: Small English improvement 23.30.38 # I just removed the second sentence, it was superfluous 23.32.38 # r30720 build result: 0 errors, 1 warnings (alex committed) 23.32.53 # Is the online manual for e280v2 updated AlexP? 23.33.12 # othniel: It will be when it is rebuilt in a few hours 23.33.27 # It's done once at day at about 06:00 IIRC 23.33.30 # (CET) 23.33.33 # I don't know if r30717 was a good idea since the warning was to have to know you had to implement it 23.33.34 # You were speaking of editing section 10.2? 23.33.42 # *was nice 23.33.47 # I did, but only very slightly 23.39.26 Quit n1s (Remote host closed the connection) 23.40.48 Join robin0800 [0] (~robin0800@149.254.218.239) 23.46.11 # Why is the Ipod Classic mentioned on the HardDriveReplacement wiki page? 23.46.27 # Is it a supported rocbox platform ? 23.46.50 Quit pamaury (Remote host closed the connection) 23.47.20 # othniel: It's a port in development 23.47.42 # Like the Sansa Fuze+? 23.47.57 # More or less 23.48.03 # You'll see them both in the same area on the front page. 23.50.26 # Do you mean dev.cgi or some other Front Page? 23.50.53 Quit hilbert (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 23.51.09 Join hilbert [0] (~hilbert@89.217.203.0) 23.54.40 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 23.56.29 Join soap [0] (~soap@cpe-76-181-78-156.columbus.res.rr.com) 23.56.30 Quit soap (Changing host) 23.56.30 Join soap [0] (~soap@rockbox/staff/soap) 23.56.45 # * gevaerts never even considered that anyone could think of dev.cgi as the front page... 23.58.34 Quit domonoky (Read error: Connection reset by peer)