--- Log for 24.06.113  Server: leguin.freenode.net  Channel: #rockbox
--- Nick: logbot  Version: Dancer V4.16  Started: 14 days and 14 hours ago

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03.38.42 #       * [Saint] doesn't know what is cuter
03.39.04 #       <[Saint]> That someone thought he used a sim for his work, or that he did it on Windows.
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11.24.00 #       <kugel> [Saint]: the cabbiev2 in git are largely _not_ your work
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11.24.46 #       <[Saint]> Where the fuck did that come from?
11.25.04 #       <[Saint]> And, a large percentage of it indeed is, I think you'll find.
11.25.18 #       <kugel> such as?
11.25.33 #       <[Saint]> every single cabbie that uses viewports?
11.26.16 #       <kugel> It wasn't clear what cabbiev2 versions lebellium was refereing to. he mentions ones made by you but these are not in git master
11.26.53 #       <[Saint]> ...so, you thought you'd be a prick about it.
11.26.57 #       <[Saint]> Right. Gotcha.
11.28.00 #       <kugel> the RaaA ones are made by me, based on onda cabbie (made by mculenaere) and the image pack on the wiki
11.28.17 #       <[Saint]> Was that in dispute?
11.28.26 #       <[Saint]> Sorry your pride was hurt....somehow.
11.29.33 #       <kugel> nothing to do with my pride, I just want to make sure you don't take credit for stuff you didn't do
11.29.54 #       <[Saint]> Though funny you bring up git cabbie, as apart from RaaA, that code has been refactored by myself...so even if I was to say that it was largely my work, I wouldn't be wrong about it.
11.30.21 #       <[Saint]> Basically this is "kugel jumped to assumptions", you may wanna not do that.
11.32.03 #       <[Saint]> When lebellium talks about "my work", and I also talk about "my work", you can't jump up and down about it because you're confused about what the work in question is.
11.32.09 #       <[Saint]> You can at least ask first.
11.33.36 #       <kugel> I explicitely talked about the ones in git
11.34.09 #       <[Saint]> Yes, but you made it seem as though I was taking credit for them. When I hadn't done anything of the sort (although I could).
11.34.16 #       <kugel> regardless of which lebellium actually refered to
11.34.40 #       * pamaury points to rockbox-community
11.34.58 #       <kugel> pamaury: this is rockbox related
11.35.00 #       <[Saint]> maybe #jumpingtoconclusions would be better
11.35.43 #       <pamaury> for history we already have git and copyright
11.39.48 #       <[Saint]> kugel: If you can point me to where I took credit for something you believe I wasn't entitled to, be my guest, please. If you were mistaken, an apology might be nice.
11.40.08 #       <[Saint]> I don't expect one, but you did offend me, but I believe that is obvious.
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11.42.22 #       <kugel> for me, and probably for other readers as well, it was not clear which cabbiev2 lebellium refered to, because there seems to be fragmentation suprisingly . and in case he meant the git ones I just wanted to make sure the credits don't go to the wrong persons
11.42.48 #       <kugel> would have helped if you named them differently for the time they're not in git
11.43.24 #       <[Saint]> What would've helped is if <some_people> didn't directly stand in the way of them being committed, but, hey.
11.43.36 #       <JdGordon> this topic doesnt feel very rockbox related tbh...
11.43.36 #       <kugel> oh, and I, by default, assume git cabbiev2 because that's the official version
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11.44.22 #       <[Saint]> Long story short, the people that needed to know what they were talking about did. And apparently you didn't. Nor did you need to. Nor does it justify the response given.
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11.44.58 #       <[Saint]> I could list a multitude of things you couldn't lay credit to...but, I don't...becuase...why would you do that if it isn't in question?
11.45.02 #       <kugel> [Saint]: who's standing in the way? you have never brought them up for inclusion; in fact it appears they're not finished from what you're saying
11.45.41 #       <kugel> s/you're saying/you were saying/
11.45.48 #       <[Saint]> You directly fought the direction I was heading in. I gave up.
11.46.51 #       <kugel> huh? I always encouraged you to bring them on the ML and/or gerrit for review and for others to collaborate
11.47.21 #       <[Saint]> while saying "I'll fight it if you continue in this direction"
11.47.27 #       <[Saint]> Not terribly encouraging.
11.47.51 #       <kugel> I never said that, please give me a real quote
11.48.41 #       <[Saint]> ...I guess I may have misread something and jumped to conclusions then. Must be something in the water.
11.50.01 #       <lebellium> I love waking up and reading such logs... calm down guys. I'm used to see [Saint] talking about cabbiev2 rework very often here + after I read that http://forums.rockbox.org/index.php/topic,29461.0.html I thought [Saint] was responsible for RaaA cabbiev2 themes. That's why I said his cabbiev2. My apologies for the other people working on it  
11.50.35 #       <[Saint]> No, I lay no claim to the versions in git.
11.50.41 #       <[Saint]> Mine reside in my github.
11.51.42 #       <[Saint]> lebellium: https://github.com/saint-lascivious/rockbox-cabbie_v2 if you wanted to have a look.
11.51.58 #       <[Saint]> It takes a rather different approach in a number of areas.
11.52.33 #       <lebellium> for a non-dev like me git vs github doesn't make any sense. There is cabbiev2 and cabbiev2. Actually the cabbiev2 included in official builds and rasher builds for RaaA
11.53.08 #       <kugel> [Saint]: Thinking about it, I think the only time when I said something that could be taken as me fighting was when announced that your cabbiev2 will remove the list item padding
11.53.57 #       <[Saint]> kugel: you had some issues with me using "non-obvious" touch controls, but between us we couldn't find an acceptable solution.
11.54.28 #       <[Saint]> I think the main issues were me using the volume icon as a button, and the album art (if present) as a button also.
11.54.54 #       <kugel> I think not, because the git cabbie use both as buttons too
11.56.29 #       <[Saint]> I'll scrape through my logs and see if I can find what the issue(s) were, but I can't promise to put too much effort into it, I've kinda put it behind me. 
11.56.38 #       <kugel> if you don't intend to upstream your work soon (or ever) I would like to ask you to rename them (it can always be named back when they land in git) to avoid further confusion
11.56.47 #       <[Saint]> I'm concentrating on the non-touch color cabbies for now.
11.58.00 #       <[Saint]> Mine do follow a different naming scheme. People just truncate it.
11.58.06 #       <lebellium> actually you're preparing cabbiev3?
11.58.27 #       <[Saint]> I sincerely doubt I'll call it cabbie. It has very few similarities.
11.58.42 #       <kugel> [Saint]: in your github it's clearly cabbiev2
11.58.52 #       <[Saint]> kugel: no, its not.
11.58.57 #       <[Saint]> its clearly rockbox-cabbie_v2
11.59.21 #       <[Saint]> ah, fuck it.
11.59.21 #       <kugel> i see cabbiev2.cfg, .wps, .sbs
11.59.32 #       <[Saint]> Yes, yes you're right.
12.00.17 #       <kugel> rockxo-cabbie_v2 is just the branch name, but it's also so similar that it can be taken as cabbiev2
12.00.32 #       <[Saint]> I may as well just take that repo down. I would be very surprised if that made it in before I tear down cabbie completely.
12.01.09 #       <lebellium> so in the end, who adapted cabbiev2 to the different RaaA targets and which is included in rasher's builds?
12.01.25 #       <kugel> that would be me
12.01.26 #       <[Saint]> lebellium: rasher's builds are pure git.
12.02.00 #       <[Saint]> and kugel maintain{ed|s} the git RaaA cabbieV2s.
12.02.45 #       <lebellium> ok thanks
12.03.01 #       <[Saint]> Though I am quietly working behind the scenes to change this.
12.03.36 #       <[Saint]> Not out of spite or malice, nor betterment, but because I believe it is sorely needed.
12.03.41 #       <kugel> [Saint]: it would be better for all if you wored in the open :/
12.03.56 #       <kugel> worked*
12.04.11 #       <[Saint]> "better for everyone else" I'll accept, but for now at least, not better for me.
12.04.13 #       <lebellium> so the goal is to replace cabbiev2 by a very different theme still called cabbiev2? :D
12.04.24 #       <[Saint]> No.
12.04.53 #       <[Saint]> Assuming it gets that far, I suppose I might hold a naming competition on the forums.
12.05.10 #       <[Saint]> I have no idea what to call it, but, it isn't a cabbie variant.
12.05.15 #       <lebellium> but the rule is "only one official themes in builds", right?
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12.05.35 #       <[Saint]> I don't think its a /rule/.
12.05.52 #       <kugel> I don't think we're going to accept a new default them that's not ported to all targets
12.06.02 #       <[Saint]> That was done purely to save space and avoid needlessly shipping files that never changed.
12.06.20 #       <[Saint]> kugel: I am aware of that.
12.06.46 #       <lebellium> So if my theme was ported to all targets, I could apply for the new default? I'm not that far :D
12.07.08 #       <[Saint]> You could, yes.
12.07.24 #       <kugel> sure, but there's no guarantee that it will be accepted
12.07.41 #       <[Saint]> A difficult road would lay ahead, but you certainly could propose it.
12.07.42 #       <lebellium> I was just joking
12.08.03 #       <kugel> porting a theme to all targets is a huge amount of work, propbably to much for a single individual, so I again encourage everyone to work collaboratively
12.08.56 #       <[Saint]> I don't intend on doing all the work myself, in fact, I'm relying on not doing so. Regardless, it isn't at a stage where I feel it is ready to see the light of day just yet.
12.09.05 #       <[Saint]> There's still a few things I need to work out.
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12.09.30 #       <[Saint]> I am sure we all have things sitting in non-public repos.
12.09.35 #       <[Saint]> I can't be the only one.
12.10.23 #       <lebellium> like the huge stuff of pamaury, the 100 latest builds? :D
12.10.47 #       <[Saint]> That's a reasonable example, yes.
12.11.06 #       <wodz> [Saint]: true if you count local dev repos with proof-of-concept scratch area. BUT people talking A LOT about such work tend to publish it as well.
12.12.07 #       <[Saint]> Well, apart from a few months ago, and now, I don't think I have ever mentioned in here that I was working on a theme intended for inclusion that wasn't cabbie.
12.12.26 #       <[Saint]> and, a few months ago, I only tipped that I was "poking at a secret project".
12.14.02 #       <[Saint]> The work you're probably thinking of is largely abandoned, pending an actual clear direction for RaaA.
12.14.17 #       <wodz> But we do speak about cabbie, don't we?
12.14.48 #       <[Saint]> I am unsure what it is you're trying to say, wodz.
12.16.11 #       <kugel> it's unfortunate that you have abandoned it, I'm sure the git ones are less than optimal
12.16.42 #       <kugel> but yea, we have no clear direction for cabbie or RaaA in general
12.16.52 #       <wodz> [Saint]: I am trying to say that you make a lot of buzz about cabbie rework which does not lead to proposal on gerrit.
12.17.09 #       <kugel> I guess most people have given up the idea that RaaA is even a good idea
12.17.33 #       <[Saint]> kugel: yes, I was trying to find a way to word that without offending anyone, but, you summed it up nicely.
12.17.42 #       <[Saint]> My work is only as abandoned as RaaA is.
12.18.01 #       <gevaerts> [Saint]: non-public is fine, but it doesn't exist as far as the rest of the world is concerned
12.18.07 #       <[Saint]> And RaaA needs to have a clear direction about how the skin engine will be handled before I pick it back up again.
12.18.14 #       <gevaerts> So as long as it doesn't exist, I don't see the point in discussing it
12.18.35 #       <[Saint]> gevaerts: ...and I'm not, that's the thing...but, people seem to think I am, or have been.
12.18.45 #       <[Saint]> I haven't mentioned reworking cabbie in an age.
12.19.26 #       <kugel> if the future is "UI using native widgets" then I don't think the skin engine will survive that switch (or at least not in it's current form)
12.19.46 #       <[Saint]> Its only today that people became aware that I've been working behind the backs of a few pople, so I can't see how I'm "generating buzz" about it.
12.19.47 #       <kugel> but nobody is working on it so I doubt the skin engine is going to go away anytime soon
12.19.58 #       <[Saint]> If that's the case, I apologize, but, I don't see it.
12.20.26 #       <kugel> [Saint]: he meant buzz about your cabbiev2 rework
12.20.40 #       <[Saint]> which stopped about a year ago :)
12.21.05 #       <kugel> before that you generated buzz and you never formally took the project down
12.21.50 #       <[Saint]> I hadn't taken it down as there's still a slight glimmer of hope for it.
12.22.10 #       <[Saint]> I also didn't put it on gerrit, as at the time I was told it wasn't the best place for it.
12.22.25 #       <[Saint]> Since it was a rolling WIP, and not an active submission.
12.22.52 #       <kugel> we don't seem to have a general agreement on what's proper for gerrit
12.23.12 #       <[Saint]> My understanding is that its for complete submissions.
12.23.20 #       <[Saint]> At least, that's what I recall being told.
12.24.05 #       <kugel> my understanding is that it's for something you want to have reviewed, WIP or complete (or otherwise...)
12.24.42 #       <kugel> (a WIP which you want to receive reviews for==RFC)
12.25.09 #       <kugel> but some argue it can be used to place arbitrary code dumps on :)
12.26.15 #       <[Saint]> I recall there also being some debate on, if I were to put it on gerrit, *how* I should so so, be it as a complete project, or individual themes.
12.27.15 #       <[Saint]> But since it was constantly evolving, I decided against it completely. It doesn't seem to be of much consequence now, though.
12.27.55 #       <[Saint]> Once I have the templates ready, and at least one functional theme for each target type, it will go up for review. That is a promise.
12.28.21 #       <[Saint]> by target type I mean: Touch, Monochrome, Greyscale, Color, etc.
12.33.00 #       * kugel will wait for it :)
12.33.36 #       <kugel> but please, if you don't intend to upstream your cabbiev2 work anytime soon, rename it
12.35.01 #       <[Saint]> If you have more time than I do presently, you might want to look at stealing the viewport control code from it.
12.35.21 #       <[Saint]> If I get the time in the next few days, I can have a look, but I'm not sure if I will.
12.35.55 #       <[Saint]> IIRC, the version in git still has that nasty issue with blocking timeouts.
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12.37.33 #       <pamaury> lebellium: actually my work was public, but you need to know where to look ;)
12.40.56 #       <lebellium> pamaury: being a non-dev doesn't help finding hidden dev stuff :D
12.47.26 #       <lebellium> pamaury: BTW, I'm still interested by FMS soft lock on Clip Zip :)
12.51.24 #       <pamaury> yeah, i'll find time to do this ;)
12.52.58 #       <[Saint]> Oh...I thought that had been committed already.
12.53.11 #       <lebellium> yes
12.53.21 #       <lebellium> but there is a keymapping issue on some targets
12.53.29 #       <lebellium> including Clip Zip or YP-R0
12.54.15 #       <lebellium> but pamaury's commit is here indeed http://git.rockbox.org/?p=rockbox.git;a=commit;h=3f4eeb8
12.56.20 #       <[Saint]> why is the gerrit task not closed then?
12.56.25 #       <[Saint]> Hum.
12.57.03 #       <wodz> pamaury: Have you recovered rk27xx dap?
12.57.19 #       <[Saint]> Oh, derp...I was looking in the merged tasks.
12.57.20 #       <[Saint]> derp.
12.57.57 #       <pamaury> wodz: not yet, i've had no time for rockbox recently, appart from merging stuff. Can you poke me again tonight ? Otherwise I will forget again ...
12.58.52 #       <pamaury> lebellium: there is not "issue", it's just that many targets define a soft lock only in the WPS, so my commit doesn't yield automatically a FMS lock, the keymap needs to be changed. For the Clip Zip that's probably a one liner, someone simply needs to test it
12.59.04 #       <wodz> pamaury: I am not quite sure I'll have time tonight :/
12.59.27 #       <pamaury> ok, i'll add it to my todo list this time, no excuse to forget
13.00.05 #       <wodz> pamaury: Thats annoying I can't bugg you about rk27xx usb just because your dap is bricked :P
13.00.50 #       <lebellium> pamaury: you have a Clip Zip now, you can test it! :P More seriously, if you don't have time, I can test it of course.
13.01.49 #       <[Saint]> lebellium: you could even make the necessary changes youself.
13.01.59 #       <[Saint]> the keymaps are fairly self-explanatory.
13.02.13 #       <lebellium> [Saint]: I'm not a dev. I can't do anything :D
13.02.20 #       <pamaury> ah, by chance I have the zip in my bag, let me test it
13.02.21 #       <[Saint]> ..you have a development environment, yes?
13.02.41 #       <[Saint]> lebellium: you underestimate yourself.
13.03.01 #       <[Saint]> No one was a programmer, before they were a programmer ;)
13.03.23 #       <lebellium> ... because of you, yes I now have a dev environment :P but to compile my own custom builds with patches, not to modify the sources files myself heh!
13.07.20 #       <lebellium> TBH, yes I could maybe do it myself, I also tried to make the YP-R0 UIsim in the past so I can modify files. But I have no commit access, I will never have since I hate his real-name policy so it's kinda useless. It's better if a real dev does it and commits the change. He will do it better and faster than me :)
13.12.26 #       <[Saint]> ...does the Zip just use keymap-clip.c, I assume so.
13.12.46 #       <pamaury> yes, i'm trying with a modified keymap right now
13.13.18 #       <[Saint]> I must be blind, as I can't immediately see why it isn't working.
13.13.32 #       <[Saint]> I'm guessing there's a conflict I'm missing. I'm a bit tired.
13.13.51 #       <pamaury> ACTION_STD_KEYLOCK is in the wps context but not the fms
13.14.07 #       <[Saint]> ahhhhhhhh. thankyou. I am blind.
13.14.47 #       <pamaury> i'll commit to gerrit so that others can test it too
13.15.12 #       <lebellium> it will  apply for both Clip+ and Clip Zip?
13.15.21 #       <[Saint]> Yes.
13.16.05 #       <lebellium> okay, I'll have a look today or tomorrow. Using my amazing dev environnement to compile a build with the patch \o/
13.17.08 #       <pamaury> Pushing unrelated changes before...
13.17.28 #       <fs-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision d938ae6, 217 builds, 19 clients.
13.17.37 #       <[Saint]> congrats on your "43-in-a-row" the other day ;)
13.17.43 #       <[Saint]> That was impressive.
13.18.30 #       <[Saint]> It would've been just under 100, but gevaerts snuck a couple in the middle (not sneaking, really, just sounded better).
13.18.59 #       <pamaury> hehe ^^ I waited too long to commit that
13.19.18 #       <pamaury> lebellium: http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/#/c/491/
13.19.44 #       <lebellium> pamaury: thanks. I'll let you know
13.24.38 #       <fs-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Build round completed after 430 seconds.
13.24.39 #       <fs-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision d938ae6 result: All green
13.34.14 #       * Zagor finally filled in the DevCon2013 page. Sorry for my slowness...
13.34.28 #       <Zagor> looks like a small event this year
13.38.21 #       <kugel> hm, before wodz and you, jul 12-14 looked like decent weekend. now no weekend looks decent anymore
13.39.05 #       <gevaerts> Maybe we need to extend the table a month or so
13.42.27 #       <Zagor> yes, I think so
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13.50.30 #       <kugel> yea
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14.24.22 #       <lebellium> pamaury: I just tried on Clip Zip. It works but the "buttons locked" and "buttons unlocked" messages remain on screen. They don't disappear. I have to leave now, I'll try on Clip+ when I'm back but I assume I'll have the same issue :)
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14.30.18 #       <kugel> lebellium: that's a separate (and known) issue
14.34.02 #       <wodz> kugel: Could you review g#190? I am leaning towards pushing this.
14.34.04 #       <fs-bluebot> 3Gerrit review #190 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/190 : 3Move load_firmware() to separate file to share it between bootloaders and rolo(). by Marcin Bukat (changes/90/190/6)
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14.37.41 #       <lebellium_gs2> kugel: I remembered I had this issue long time ago when I started making themes. I guess I found a workaround since I no longer have this issue in WPS with any of my themes. But why the issue with FMS now? I code WPS and FMS the same way
14.57.57 #       <wodz> kugel: any particular reason you don't like loader_strerr.c as separate file?
14.58.08 #       <kugel> it's so small
14.58.40 #       <kugel> isn't rb-loader.c compiled always? could use the same file
15.02.01 #       <wodz> It can be putted there but is this really beneficial? 
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15.15.49 #       <tertu> An iPod requires the OF to be running to sync with iTunes, correct? (if so that partially negates my reason to get one)
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15.22.47 #       <tertu> really, why is the classic marked unusable? it can't boot the OF but from the checklist it looks like there are not really any other issues 
15.23.25 #       <tertu> oh, the wiki page explains why.
15.24.35 #       <fs-bluebot> Build Server message: 3New build round started. Revision 46ea8bf, 217 builds, 19 clients.
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15.30.47 #       <fs-bluebot> Build Server message: 3Revision 46ea8bf result: All green
15.38.05 #       <Zagor> I added four more weekends to DevCon2013
15.39.20 #       <Zagor> it's getting really ugly to edit :-)
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16.29.33 #       <ktulx> hey guys. is there any changelog for the daily builds?
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16.31.07 #       <Zagor> ktulx: it's the commit log on the front page
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20.16.41 #       <dgquintas> would anything prevent from writing a plugin in C++? I guess that as long as the GCC cross-compiler supports C++ everything would be fine, correct?
20.19.53 #       <kugel> dgquintas: our crosscompiler dont support c++
20.24.27 #       <AlexP> kugel: I can't do the 12th-14th of July anymore, people were too slow so it got booked :)
20.25.23 #       <gevaerts> petur: have you seen the extra four weeks we added to the devcon table?
20.27.05 #       <dgquintas> kugel: true, but it's always possible to compile the cross-compiling GCC with C++ support. In principle once the cross-compiler has generated the binaries for the architecture (eg, arm, etc) it shouldn't make a difference
20.27.25 #       <gevaerts> Well, there's the fact that C++ needs more runtime support
20.27.34 #       <gevaerts> So you'll have to provide some of that too
20.28.04 #       <dgquintas> that's what I was concerned about
20.28.35 #       <kugel> yea, libstdc++ needs libc, which we don't have as such as a formal library
20.29.19 #       <dgquintas> got it, thanks!
20.29.28 #       <kugel> but you could probrary restrict yourself to a very basic subset that it could work
20.29.29 #       <gevaerts> Also, C++ code tends to be more demanding on the memory allocator
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20.50.42 #       <bluebrother^> looking at the wiki I think we should drop at least june / july from the DevCon dates list
20.51.16 #       <bluebrother^> perhaps even dropping the whole table and retrying starting with september :)
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21.32.48 #       <pamaury> indeed, no week-end seems suitable before early september
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21.35.34 #       <kugel> I would like sept better too because that's after my master thesis
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21.59.25 #       <dunpeal> Is there a way to create a Playlist for an entire directory tree, named after its root parent?
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22.01.38 #       <dunpeal> Or in general, just create a Playlist named after a particular directory?
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22.22.55 #       <bluebrother^> dunpeal: why does the playlist need to be named after something? It's a file, you can pick any filename you like.
22.23.33 #       <bluebrother^> and for playlist from a tree: enable "insert recursively", then insert the folder to the dynamic playlist, then save it.
22.41.04 #       <dunpeal> bluebrother^: I just don't like having to type 10-character names using the arcade-style keyboard.
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23.41.34 #       <[Saint]> that's....strange.
23.41.47 #       <[Saint]> RbUtil on 13.04 doesn't seem to get an icon.
23.43.22 #       <[Saint]> ...also, I assume there is one, so can someone refresh my memory as to why bootloaders can't be retrieved from the build table?
23.44.32 #       <gevaerts> Because they're not uploaded?
23.44.52 #       <gevaerts> More importantly, because untested bootloaders can be dangerous
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23.45.31 #       <[Saint]> Hum. Fair point.
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23.47.11 #       <[Saint]> There's only a relatively small subset of devices where that could cause a /really/, or permanently, bad day though, no?
23.47.15 #       <[Saint]> (just curious)