--- Log for 05.06.114 Server: leguin.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot Version: Dancer V4.16 Started: 23 days and 20 hours ago 00.10.54 Quit go2m (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00.11.25 Join go2m [0] (~goomba@cpe-72-177-176-215.satx.res.rr.com) 00.12.10 # i guess most of the firmware could be code for whatever weird DSP core it uses (not mips I think?) 00.14.01 Quit bzed (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00.14.14 Join bzed [0] (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) 00.15.08 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 00.18.54 Quit ender` (Quit: Documentation is like sex: when it's good, it's very good, and when it's bad it's still better than nothing.) 00.23.57 Quit dfkt_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00.32.25 Quit tertu (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00.32.51 Join tertu [0] (~tertu@143.44.70.199) 00.35.05 Join dfkt [0] (OxO29A@unaffiliated/dfkt) 00.44.22 Quit RiD (Quit: A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow.) 00.48.51 Quit TheSeven (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 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(~xerion@5419F5F4.cm-5-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) 02.28.11 Quit Xerion (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02.28.16 Join Xerion_ [0] (~xerion@5419F5F4.cm-5-2d.dynamic.ziggo.nl) 02.42.23 Join Saijin_Naib [0] (~Saijin_Na@cpe-24-93-31-78.rochester.res.rr.com) 02.43.27 Part Saijin_Naib 03.00.01 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection) 03.07.31 Quit babylonlurker (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 03.11.48 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@c-68-43-2-35.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) 03.11.48 Quit jhMikeS (Changing host) 03.11.48 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS) 03.12.15 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.) 03.14.20 Join babylonlurker [0] (~quassel@veda.xs4all.nl) 04.15.14 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 04.31.47 Quit pixelma (Disconnected by services) 04.31.48 Join pixelma_ [0] (quassel@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.31.50 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (quassel@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.32.10 Quit amiconn (Disconnected by services) 04.32.10 Join amiconn_ [0] (quassel@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 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(~jethead71@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS) 14.47.50 Quit michaelni (Quit: Leaving) 14.49.44 Join ter2 [0] (~tertu@143.44.70.199) 14.49.44 Quit tertu (Disconnected by services) 14.51.27 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14.57.52 Join model [0] (~model@cscluster.minotstateu.edu) 15.00.20 Join amayer [0] (~amayer@mail.weberadvertising.com) 15.01.06 Quit mortalis (Remote host closed the connection) 15.02.23 Join mortalis [0] (~kvirc@213.33.220.118) 15.04.20 Quit mortalis (Remote host closed the connection) 15.05.01 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15.05.45 Join mortalis [0] (~kvirc@213.33.220.118) 15.05.50 Join pauldgroot [0] (~pauldgroo@5ED47C81.cm-7-5b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) 15.16.30 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 15.21.58 Quit yosafbridge (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 15.25.56 Join yosafbridge [0] (~yosafbrid@192.241.198.49) 15.33.59 Quit model (Quit: Leaving) 15.34.15 Join model [0] (~model@cscluster.minotstateu.edu) 15.39.15 Join sakax [0] (~sakax@unaffiliated/sakax) 15.44.23 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) 15.47.16 Join ygrek [0] (~user@108.59.6.97) 15.48.19 Join michaelni [0] (~michael@chello084114129144.4.15.vie.surfer.at) 15.50.07 Quit mortalis (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15.51.52 Join StarBrilliant [0] (~proxy@unaffiliated/starbrilliant) 15.52.35 Part StarBrilliant 16.15.27 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 16.16.14 Quit model (Quit: Leaving) 16.58.16 Quit Strife89 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17.01.59 # is there no way do display the total time that Rockbox has been running since the last full recharge, without starting the battbench plugin every time I turn on the device? 17.04.54 Join Tohatsu [0] (~tohatsu@5.141.21.103) 17.11.46 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17.12.53 Quit ender` (Quit: 00 little bugs in the code, 100 bugs in the code, fix one bug, compile it again, 102 little bugs in the code, 102 little bugs in the code... -- Coder's Ditty) 17.14.08 Quit Zagor (Quit: Clint excited) 17.14.19 Join model [0] (~model@cscluster.minotstateu.edu) 17.20.03 Quit Scall (Remote host closed the connection) 17.20.51 Quit ygrek (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17.22.00 Join Scall [0] (~chat@unaffiliated/scall) 17.23.22 Quit pauldgroot (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17.32.04 Join kuldeepdhaka [0] (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka) 17.32.46 Quit petur (Quit: Page closed) 17.39.25 Join ender` [0] (krneki@foo.eternallybored.org) 17.42.45 Quit Tohatsu (Remote host closed the connection) 17.46.04 Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP) 17.57.15 Quit sakax (Quit: Leaving) 17.57.34 Join sakax [0] (~sakax@unaffiliated/sakax) 18.15.28 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 18.15.59 Nick DormantBrain is now known as SuperBrainAK (~andy@74.112.200.73) 18.25.12 Join Saijin_Naib [0] (~Saijin_Na@cpe-24-93-31-78.rochester.res.rr.com) 18.29.53 Part Saijin_Naib 18.30.21 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18.39.57 Join kuldeepdhaka [0] (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka) 18.42.55 Join dhrasmus [0] (~dhrasmus@173-23-87-9.client.mchsi.com) 18.45.52 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18.57.32 Join bertrik [0] (~quassel@ip117-49-211-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) 18.57.32 Quit bertrik (Changing host) 18.57.32 Join bertrik [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) 18.58.07 Join RiD [0] (Ghost@bl22-227-20.dsl.telepac.pt) 18.58.29 # is it possible to estimate the subjective loudness difference that the compressor plugin parameters will cause? 18.58.34 # on the fly 19.00.06 # that would depend on the music. I guess no. 19.00.17 # snap. 19.00.26 # or maybe if you consider replay gain values 19.00.34 # that's the idea 19.01.01 # I was thinking of having the DAP (Rockbox) apply Dynamic Range Compression instead of positive Replaygain values that would make the song clip 19.01.18 # instead of using a negative preamp value and instead of lowering the gain according to peak 19.01.22 # which breaks replaygain 19.01.46 # the amount of DRC applied would bring the song to the replaygain loudness target 19.02.25 # negative RG value: just apply that 19.02.34 # positive RG value that won't clip according to peak: just apply that 19.02.53 # positive RG value that WILL clip according to peak: apply the appropriate amount of compression 19.03.10 # is clipping that much of a problem with default replay gain settings? 19.03.17 # more than you'd think 19.03.21 # https://outpost.fr/tmp/s3h.txt 19.03.32 # this is my collection, sorted by gain 19.03.42 Join y4n [0] (~y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx) 19.03.52 # the preamp value is that which needs to be applied to avoid clipping, according to peak 19.04.06 # and it's not just some oddball classic music recordings 19.04.15 # there's Supertramp and Vangelis in there 19.04.24 # and Kate Bush (80s recording), etc 19.05.03 # and it can be a problem if your cans aren't sensitive enough (and or if your device's output is too weak, etc) 19.06.30 # applying a reasonable amount of DRC for the few albums that need it, would neatly solve the maximum loudness problem 19.06.59 # while keeping Replaygain's purpose intact 19.06.59 # only few recordings should have positive replay gain values, though 19.07.13 # what about gevaerts who listens mostly to classical music? 19.07.34 # he'd need to reduce the pre-amp gain 19.07.35 # I bet he has a ton of recordings with positive gains that will clip 19.07.40 # yes 19.07.53 # which is shown in that list I linked to 19.08.02 # see the preamp value: nearly -5 dB 19.08.07 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 19.08.18 # and that reduces the device's maximum loudness by as much 19.08.55 # DAPs are designed for modern, brickwalled music 19.09.11 # and portable, sensitive headphones 19.09.37 # if your gear and tastes stray off the beaten path, you might run into problems 19.09.53 # how on earth can icky thump have a positve gain? 19.09.59 # vinyl rip 19.10.05 # ah 19.10.28 # I guess replay gain doesn't work well on vinyl rips 19.10.33 # I have a few "audiophile" rips in there, not vinyl but MFSL recordings and such 19.10.45 # they certainly can look more dynamic than they are 19.10.55 # though in this case I bet it's dynamic as fuck 19.10.57 # and also stereo downmixes of 5.1 content 19.11.29 # but most albums you see with large positive gains are straight up CD rips 19.13.39 # most of my non brickwalled cds are around −3dB 19.14.40 # even my copy of Aqualung has a negative replay gain value and that one's really low in volume and loudness 19.15.21 # what's your point :P 19.15.37 # I didn't invent the values in that list 19.15.50 # looking hard for music that will cause problems :D 19.16.09 # some people will listen mostly to -12dB pop music, and some people will listen mostly to +3 dB classical music 19.17.07 # damn it, the only classical album I have is rated −1.99dB 19.17.20 # gevaerts: yelp! 19.17.44 # :D 19.19.27 # can't we just have rockbox analyze all replay gain tags to find out the highest safe setting? 19.20.10 # that's not the point 19.20.13 # my script does that 19.20.16 # it generated that list 19.20.25 # that's one useful script 19.20.25 # but it doesn't solve the maximum loudness issue 19.20.37 # https://outpost.fr/stuff/preamp.sh 19.20.39 # go nuts 19.20.46 # works on FLAC and Ogg Vorbis 19.21.05 # you should make that a plugin 19.21.47 # well 19.21.59 # turns out a "hard limiter" would do pretty much just that. 19.22.12 # or so I've been told just now 19.22.12 # you could always just turn on the compressor and set it to limit only the loudest peaks 19.23.29 # how? 19.23.37 # I have zero understanding of its parameters 19.24.06 # and I doubt many Rockbox users have any either 19.24.42 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection) 19.24.59 # if I can make this work and just write a forum post about it, I'll consider myself happy 19.25.04 # you wouldn't want the threshold very low 19.25.33 # the threshold is the amplitude at which the compressor starts doing its magic? 19.25.40 # exactly 19.25.49 # well DERP 19.26.07 # hmmm 19.26.08 # wait 19.26.17 Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP) 19.26.19 # the tricky thing is: you'll need to bring up the makeup gain 19.26.24 # what does it act on: the signal BEFORE applying RG gain, or AFTER? 19.26.46 # is it at the very end of the signal processing chain? 19.26.47 Join lebellium [0] (~chatzilla@89-93-178-161.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr) 19.26.48 # good question 19.27.03 # it would have to be after to make this work 19.27.10 # well yeah 19.27.33 # actually it only makes any sense if it's at the end of the chain 19.27.38 # still: setting the makeup gain will be tricky because it can introduce more clipping 19.27.45 # otherwise, the other DSP functions would fuck it up 19.27.58 # what makeup gain? 19.28.04 # lots of mascara? 19.28.23 # makes the signal sexier? :D 19.29.09 # makeup gain is there to make the compressed (=softer) signal louder again 19.29.29 # why? 19.29.33 # I mean, what for? 19.30.01 # if you reduce the peaks, you have headroom to bring the rest up in level 19.30.30 # I have trouble figuring out the implications of this 19.30.43 # doesn't that completely fuck up Replaygain? 19.31.10 # where's saratoga when you need him 19.31.17 # good point. it probably does 19.31.22 # that guy basically knows EVERYTHING 19.31.31 # freak of nature 19.32.14 # oh, makeup gain only has an automatical setting 19.32.29 # yeah 19.32.32 # off / automatic 19.32.52 # which is french for: "fuck knows what it's doing: it's pure MAGIC" 19.34.10 # I'm also confused by the threshold setting 19.34.15 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 19.34.27 # for the purpose I've been talking about, wouldn't "off" be the appropriate setting? 19.34.32 # er 19.34.39 # does "off" mean "0 dBFS"? 19.35.01 # no 19.35.06 # derp 19.35.14 # "off" means "no DRC" 19.35.46 # wait 19.36.05 # if I'm understanding this correctly, the compressor plugin is designed to make quiet content louder 19.36.12 # it's not designed to reduce peaks 19.36.20 # that's what a compressor does 19.36.42 # in order to make things louder, you need to bringt the peaks down 19.36.53 # yeah but it doesn't look like it will prevent clipping 19.36.57 # watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91qs3fux5HY 19.38.03 # I mean 19.38.21 # yeah, you'd have to bring the peaks down before replay gain is applied 19.38.38 # how do I relate the Threshold setting to the amount by which content will clip? 19.39.25 # and how do I make it NOT act on content that will NOT clip? 19.41.06 Join kuldeepdhaka [0] (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka) 19.42.20 # no, wait. you wouldn't. I was getting confused 19.46.31 # a compression meter would be really useful to check what it does 19.47.01 Join RiDD [0] (RiD@bl22-227-20.dsl.telepac.pt) 19.47.01 Quit RiDD (Client Quit) 19.47.30 # do you know who wrote it? 19.47.35 # the compressor 19.47.41 # no idea. 19.47.52 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Max SendQ exceeded) 19.48.08 # let me read the manual again 19.49.21 Join kuldeepdhaka [0] (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka) 19.49.44 # hmmm 19.50.41 # if I'm reading this right, makup gain should be set to "auto", and "threshold" to the lowest preamp gain that my script calculated (-4.76 dB, rounded down to -6 dB) 19.50.49 # someone please confirm 19.51.36 # hmmm 19.51.47 # I guess I could record it and check for clipping manually 19.52.18 # I think the compressor plugin is pre-replay gain 19.52.20 # I still need to know when the compressor DSP is applied though 19.52.41 # ugh 19.52.47 # I guess that would still work? 19.52.50 # wait no 19.52.53 # that can't be 19.53.17 # if it's pre-replaygain, and "makeup" is set to "auto", which makes it as loud as possible (0 dBFS), a positive gain would make it clip 19.53.23 # that would be… faulty 19.53.34 # I set it to −9dB and it fucks up green day's american idiot (-10.69dB) noticeably 19.55.06 # I guess I could make a simple test with a 0 dBFS sine way 19.55.07 # wave 19.55.16 # tomorrow though 19.55.23 # * copper writes it down 19.57.32 # a positive gain won't make it clip in the case you describe as long as you set replay gain pre-amplification accordingly 19.57.49 # I _don't_ want to do that! 19.57.53 # that's the point 19.58.03 # uh 19.58.04 # wait 19.58.12 # hmmm 19.58.13 # you do 19.58.31 # you want to reduce the peaks of your softest material 19.58.34 # that's an interesting thought 19.58.39 # and bring everything else back up in level 19.59.10 # OK 19.59.19 # I'll test all that tomorrow 19.59.43 # well, thanks for your input 20.00.03 # I'm pretty sure the compressor is currently pre-replay gain 20.00.08 # why? 20.00.24 # I have replay gain on 20.00.35 # right 20.00.44 # that's fucked up though 20.00.45 # playing a song with a replay gain rating of −10.69 dB 20.01.05 # setting the threshold to −9 and basically all other settings to stun 20.01.14 # a replaygained signal should be considered a "source" signal 20.01.31 # i.e. cue all other DSPs AFTER it 20.02.07 Quit dhrasmus (Quit: Leaving) 20.02.19 # it's clearly doing something at these settings, so it must be pre-replay gain 20.02.41 # I should be able to determine this with my measurements 20.03.24 # It's clearly audible 20.04.40 # "Iggy and The Stooges/Raw Power [1973]" → -16.29 dB replaygain :D 20.04.49 # remastered by Iggy Pop himself :D 20.05.03 # ouch. clearly mr. pop is no mastering engineer 20.05.14 # he's clearly half deaf 20.05.25 # clipping sounds like high frequency sounds 20.05.36 # he probably can't hear shit beyond 8 kHz 20.05.44 # :D 20.06.00 # so, in HIS opinion: NO CLIPPING 20.06.04 # sounds… RAW 20.06.14 # (like Raw Power) 20.06.19 # brickwall limiting sometimes sounds better when you clip the signal first 20.06.42 # i think that's the all time winner of brickwalling 20.07.12 # no-one else dared doing worse 20.07.34 # right. californication is only −12 20.07.40 # I should add statistics to my script 20.07.43 # and that clips badly 20.07.49 # yeah 20.08.01 # american idiot is loud as fuck. that's why I picked it for testing 20.08.04 # -12 dB is pretty much the "standard" for "worst offenders" 20.08.29 # anything beyond that, and you got yourself an international athlete 20.08.45 # interestingly the red hot chili peppers don't sound much like the red hot chili peppers when the audio is not smashed beyond recognition :D 20.09.06 # only Death Magnetic from Metallica is between -12 and -16 20.09.08 # (-13) 20.09.21 # and Death Magnetic is a pretty notorious offender 20.09.43 # (in my collection, anyway) 20.10.07 # I can't imagine limiting a 1973 recording that badly. don't think that would work. you have to mix for loudness to make things really loud at the mastering stage 20.10.21 # when you consider a target demographic that listens mostly to that kind of content, it's easy to design a DAP that will make you go deaf 20.10.58 # the EU isn't exactly helpful limiting the output of players, though 20.11.22 # indeed 20.11.35 # my smartphone is 10 dB quieter than a Clip+ 20.11.49 # 14 dB quieter than my Rockboxed iPod Classic 20.11.58 # ouch. that's low 20.12.10 # said Classic being 6 db quieter (or more) with the OF 20.12.44 # my smartphone gets maxed out pretty easily 20.12.46 # I can comfortably go to −10db with my headphones on a clip zip with replay gain on. 20.13.00 # well 20.13.11 # depending on the music of course 20.13.21 # my super sensitive IEMs work OK with my smartphone with RG on and a -5 dB preamp 20.13.24 # at MAX VOLUME 20.13.36 # :-/ 20.13.53 # my smartphone's output is otherwise fine 20.14.03 # http://outpost.fr/rmaa/Sony_Xperia_Z1.htm 20.15.30 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 20.16.06 # 17:20:27 UTC that's one useful script 20.16.27 # I wrote it after Saint asked what the ideal preamp gain would be 20.16.32 # :D 20.16.56 # I figured I only needed to compute the difference between RG gain and peak 20.17.25 # right. that thing should be a plugin on every player. 20.17.32 # indeed 20.17.39 # like, I don't know… foobar2000 20.17.43 # <_< 20.17.56 # anything that uses replaygain 20.23.39 Quit kuldeepdhaka (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 20.45.03 Nick SuperBrainAK is now known as DormantBrain (~andy@74.112.200.73) 20.54.34 Quit jhMikeS (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 22.14.23 Join us`0gb [0] (~0gb.us@c-71-237-219-28.hsd1.or.comcast.net) 22.15.33 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 22.17.22 Quit y4n (Quit: Do you like hurting other people?) 22.26.24 # copper: system > running time 22.26.31 # its reset when you plugin a charger IIRC 22.26.57 # fun fact: it was broken for something like 4 years without anyone noticing, but i fixed it a while back 22.49.15 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 23.00.02 Quit ZincAlloy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23.00.04 Join ZincAlloy1 [0] (~Adium@pD9EE9C91.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) 23.04.54 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving) 23.06.53 Quit n1s (Quit: Ex-Chat) 23.06.56 Join Saijin_Naib [0] (~Saijin_Na@cpe-24-93-31-78.rochester.res.rr.com) 23.11.40 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@c-68-43-2-35.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) 23.11.40 Quit jhMikeS (Changing host) 23.11.40 Join jhMikeS [0] (~jethead71@rockbox/developer/jhMikeS) 23.12.26 Quit bzed (Quit: leaving) 23.13.14 Join bzed [0] (~bzed@devel.recluse.de) 23.18.12 Join kugel [0] (~kugel@91-64-117-207-dynip.superkabel.de) 23.18.12 Quit kugel (Changing host) 23.18.12 Join kugel [0] (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) 23.22.13 Part Saijin_Naib 23.25.25 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-98-80-216-254.mcn.bellsouth.net) 23.42.04 Nick DormantBrain is now known as SuperBrainAK (~andy@74.112.200.73) 23.45.54 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 30.0/20140529161749]) 23.48.35 Quit kugel (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)