--- Log for 12.11.114 Server: asimov.freenode.net Channel: #rockbox --- Nick: logbot- Version: Dancer V4.16 Started: 10 days and 10 hours ago 00.00.10 # <[Franklin]> [Saint] hates plugins! and kittens! 00.00.10 # <[Saint]> Thankfully there's no plugins in core yet that have any ridiculous requirements. 00.00.18 # <[Saint]> ...yet. 00.00.23 # <[Saint]> But, you're working on it. 00.00.23 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: yet... xworld? 00.00.26 # <[Franklin]> lol 00.00.48 Quit ender` (Quit: Patriotism is, fundamentally, a conviction that a particular country is the best in the world because you were born in it... -- George Bernard Shaw) 00.01.03 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: how about doom? 00.01.30 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: xworld actually doesn't need that much processing power 00.01.40 # <[Franklin]> it needs a ton of memory, true. 00.01.46 # <[Saint]> We've had this discussion. The iPod Video is several orders of magnitude more powerful than the hardware DooM was intended to run on. 00.02.04 # * [Franklin] wants to se it run xworld 00.02.04 # <[Saint]> xworld needs a bit of resources due to all the behind-the-scenes fuckery for the port transition. 00.02.12 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: indeed 00.02.17 # <[Franklin]> that's exactly it 00.02.33 # <[Saint]> The actual game itself is hilariously simple. 00.02.40 # <[Franklin]> for example, the video could be optimized to write the real colors to a framebuffer 00.02.42 # <[Saint]> Bastardizing it onto other things...notsomuch. 00.02.56 # <[Franklin]> instead of using a palette and needing 3 framebuffers to draw one screen 00.03.05 # <[Franklin]> one for the internal buf 00.03.10 # <[Franklin]> one for the system buffer 00.03.15 # <[Franklin]> and one for the temporary rotation buffer 00.03.42 # <[Franklin]> it could write directly to the system buffer, saving 32K 00.03.56 # <[Franklin]> but it complicates things a lot 00.06.14 # <[Franklin]> so for now, the game will use ~1MB of memory :) 00.06.23 # <[Franklin]> a bit more, actually 00.06.39 # <[Franklin]> but the audiobuf is *huge*, and since we're already using it, why not use all of it? :) 00.06.54 # <[Saint]> *on some targets* 00.07.12 # * [Franklin] doesn't ever want to see this running on an archos 00.07.14 Join arp0177 [0] (~arp0177@CPE-124-187-24-68.lns10.cha.bigpond.net.au) 00.07.47 # <[Saint]> and, wildly using resources just because you can goes against embedded programming so much its not even funny. 00.08.12 # <[Saint]> in core, we're fighting for every single cycle. 00.08.18 # <[Franklin]> is this core? 00.08.21 # <[Franklin]> :P 00.08.51 # <[Saint]> That doesn't mean things should be wildly inefficient just because the developer is lazy. ;p 00.08.55 # <[Franklin]> indeed, the game is in dire need of optimization 00.09.01 # <[Franklin]> but first, it needs to *work* 00.09.05 # <[Franklin]> then I can optimize 00.09.11 # * gevaerts thinks we should remove many game plugins 00.09.14 # <[Franklin]> it barely works currently 00.09.24 # hoping someone can give some advice w/3.13 on 4th Gen. Can't/won't seem to mount on Mint 17. Any suggestions? 00.09.44 # Not all, things that are playable while you listen to audio are fine 00.10.03 # <[Franklin]> yay! so 2048 will stay :D 00.10.35 # <[Franklin]> but another world will definitely go 00.10.40 Quit Makinit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 00.11.20 # <[Saint]> gevaerts: I've been thinking that myself 00.11.34 # <[Saint]> its audio player software after all... 00.11.43 # IMO mos plugins should go to a seperate extras repo anyways 00.11.47 # most* 00.11.52 # arp0177: ipod 4g I assume? 00.11.59 Join Makinit [0] (makinit@makinit.nl) 00.12.18 # yep. Just a vanilla install too btw. 00.12.27 # now to figure out how to tell if its a 6g 00.12.37 # Does dmesg give any hints? 00.12.51 # [Saint]: I didn't realize it worked on all ipods (more or less) now. 00.12.52 # <[Saint]> zirra-afk: is the front metal? 00.12.55 # That makes me very happy. 00.13.03 # <[Saint]> zirra-afk: its not a 'now' thing. 00.13.03 # [Saint]: Yes. I think. 00.13.07 # It looks like aluminum. 00.13.11 # Yeah, that makes me super happy. 00.13.12 # <[Saint]> its been this way for many, many, many years. 00.13.16 # Really? 00.13.20 # Damn.. I must have read a lonnnnng time ago. 00.13.20 # <[Saint]> Really really. 00.13.33 # hid-generic 0003:05AC:1203.0006: input,hidraw3: USB HID v1.10 Keyboard [Rockbox.org Rockbox media player] on usb-0000:00:1d.7-1/input1 00.13.33 # - is all. 00.13.35 # I thought it was only like 2 years ago that I read that battery life was horrible because it was basically ipod4linux with rockbox. 00.13.41 # But I have a really bad sense of time. 00.13.49 # Trying to go find a cable now so I can rockbox-ify it. 00.14.05 # <[Saint]> Battery life has never been /that/ terrible. 00.14.17 # arp0177: what does the screen show? 00.14.45 # USB Keypad Mode: Multimedia 00.15.07 Quit lebellium (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 34.0/20141106201515]) 00.15.29 # Can you put a bit more from dmesg on a pastebin? I'd like to see everything started from where it detects a USB device plugin 00.15.38 # Huh. I never rockboxed my new ipod because I thought it was really bad. 00.15.44 # sure brb. 00.15.47 # Oh well. Live and learn I guess. But happy day for now. 00.16.14 # <[Saint]> zirra-afk: you'll need this: http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE 00.16.33 # <[Saint]> Rockbox proper doesn't support bootloader installation for this device at all. 00.17.18 # Boo. I'll have to do it when I get home since I'm on a mac. 00.17.41 # <[Saint]> Ohhh, shit. 00.17.51 # <[Saint]> You don't use a Mac regularly, do you? 00.18.00 # Just for work. 00.18.05 # Not for copying music from. 00.18.33 # I just don't have a PC at work. I have one at home though. 00.18.40 # <[Saint]> Ah. Good. The standard build won't mount on a Mac because they're stupid and only want to treat it as an iPod and not removable mass stoage. 00.18.46 # lol 00.18.49 # Good to know. 00.18.53 # <[Saint]> They see the VID/PID and decide its an iPod and how to treat it. 00.19.02 # Ahhh. That doesn't surprise me. 00.19.06 # <[Saint]> Makes sense, but, bad for our use case. 00.19.12 # Right. 00.21.42 # arp0177: it does find the disk as /dev/sdb 00.22.08 # "mount /dev/sdb2 /mnt" should work 00.22.36 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00.24.08 # Gavaerts - Eureka! 00.24.37 # but must be as root to put files on/take off. 00.25.42 # any ideas as to why I need to mount via term? 00.25.48 # No 00.26.06 # I have *no* idea how automounters work, I don't use them 00.26.45 # thanks heaps anyway. (automount = i'm lazy w/somethings) 00.29.13 Join chrisb [0] (~chrisb@li482-205.members.linode.com) 00.29.39 # leaving 00.29.51 Quit arp0177 (Quit: Leaving) 00.40.30 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: I actually do agree 00.40.41 # <[Franklin]> not everyone wants doom or another world 00.40.49 # <[Franklin]> or pacbox, etc. 00.41.11 Quit ZincAlloy (Quit: Leaving.) 00.41.53 # <[Saint]> Which is why none of the resources are included and said plugins by themselves are tiny. 00.42.12 # <[Saint]> Moving them off to a separate repo solves nothing, and adds complexity that isn't wanted or needed. 00.42.17 # <[Franklin]> really? and not legal reasons? 00.42.35 # * [Franklin] imagines a rockbox package manager 00.42.41 # lol 00.42.44 # <[Saint]> There's absolutely nothing stopping us from shipping the FreeDooM files. 00.42.59 # <[Saint]> Apart from the fact they're huge and largely irrelevant. 00.43.12 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: I was referring to pacbox 00.43.24 # <[Saint]> ...which is why you mentioned DooM...right. 00.43.34 # <[Saint]> Easy train of thought to follow there genius. ;) 00.43.36 # <[Franklin]> and pacbox :P 00.43.56 # <[Franklin]> Easy train of thought to follow there genius. ;) 00.44.39 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@adsl-98-80-212-67.mcn.bellsouth.net) 00.45.08 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: but it'd be nice to have a "repo" of plugins that won't get in the main distribution 00.45.12 # <[Franklin]> (for various reasons) 00.45.29 # <[Franklin]> i.e. in development 00.45.38 # <[Saint]> That's what gerrit is... 00.45.42 # <[Franklin]> or not GPL-compliant (but open-source) 00.45.48 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: no, like pre-built bins 00.46.05 # <[Franklin]> wikipedia, for instance 00.46.16 # <[Saint]> what good would that be? Plugins are versioned. We'd need to build on every run. 00.46.18 # <[Saint]> Fuck that. 00.46.32 # * [Franklin] starts to think 00.46.35 # <[Franklin]> aha yes 00.46.36 # <[Saint]> And the things that aren't GPL compliant can go fuck themselves. 00.48.27 # * foolsh generally feels that way about non open source things anyways 00.48.50 # <[Franklin]> like wikipedia 00.49.00 # but the plugin's are a simple distraction, most are not useful 00.49.00 # <[Saint]> What happened with the wikipedia viewer was unfortunate, but, entirely avoidable. 00.49.07 # <[Saint]> So, I have little sympathy for it. 00.49.33 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: ahem? 00.49.40 # <[Saint]> If you try to GPL without clear authorship...you're gonna have a bad time. 00.50.25 # * [Franklin] thinks that GPL actually gives people less freedom than no license 00.50.37 # <[Franklin]> sure, it "guarantees freedom" 00.50.43 # <[Franklin]> but freedom for whom? 00.51.11 # <[Saint]> I...wow. 00.51.12 # obviously any license gives people less freedom than no license >_> 00.51.51 # unless it was magical in some way 00.51.51 # <[Franklin]> I mean, it just complicate things, and in some cases, restricts freedoms 00.52.00 # <[Franklin]> like wikipedia 00.52.07 # <[Saint]> Newsflash: Forrests are made of trees - more news on this spooky occurrence at 6pm 00.52.18 # <[Franklin]> forrests? 00.52.28 # basically the gpl is intended to give people more freedom than a corporate proprietary license, and also successfully compete with products made under such a license 00.52.49 # <[Franklin]> true 00.52.52 # while protecting them from liability 00.52.59 # <[Franklin]> but then it fails miserably in some cases 00.53.03 # <[Franklin]> i.e. wikipedia! 00.53.19 # <[Saint]> It only failed there because some asshole decided to not know what he was doing or not care. 00.53.23 # <[Saint]> Its not a failing of the license. 00.53.27 # <[Saint]> Its someone being an idiot. 00.53.47 # yeah the gpl, though strict, is pretty manageable by people who pay attention 00.53.54 # * [Franklin] does that often 00.53.54 # <[Saint]> ^ this 01.07.22 Join Rondom [0] (~rondom@2a01:488:66:1000:2ea3:4892:0:1) 01.08.01 # Thanks for the info guys. I'll likely have more questions tonight, but we'll see. :) 01.08.07 # Really afk for real now. 01.10.49 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 01.23.54 Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 01.24.04 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 01.25.58 Quit perky (Quit: Page closed) 01.34.46 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: I take it that you are opposed to XWorld getting commited? 01.35.28 # <[Saint]> I'm no more opposed to it than any of the other irrelevant plugins. 01.36.01 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: why? 01.36.11 # <[Franklin]> they don't slow down the player 01.36.16 # <[Franklin]> except when they're run 01.36.29 # <[Franklin]> and plus, the actual bin is pretty small 01.36.36 # <[Franklin]> as you said, its the data that's big 01.36.45 # <[Saint]> Its still irrelevant to those that don't use it. 01.36.50 # <[Saint]> Which is going to be almost everyone. 01.37.03 # <[Franklin]> then why have plugins at all? 01.37.13 # <[Saint]> At the end of the day, for most people, its a wholly unwanted and unneeded binsize hit. 01.37.24 # <[Franklin]> tiny 01.37.28 # <[Franklin]> a tiny one 01.37.55 # * [Saint] points out that /most/ plugins actually have a use case. Its just the ones you work on that seem to be entirely surplus to requirement. 01.38.07 # <[Saint]> Were it up to me, all the games and demos could go die in a fire. 01.38.11 # <[Franklin]> lol 01.38.24 # <[Franklin]> 2048 is useless? 01.39.56 # <[Saint]> Largely, yes. 01.40.03 # <[Saint]> A decade ago, I'd disagree. 01.40.06 # <[Saint]> Not today. 01.40.11 # <[Franklin]> why? 01.40.32 # <[Saint]> This is a time when pretty much everyone is carrying around a device that is vastly more capable and infinitely better suited to gaming. 01.40.43 # <[Saint]> WHen Rockbox was born, this was not the case. 01.40.50 # <[Franklin]> well, we already have a nice platform 01.40.54 # <[Franklin]> why not make the most of it? 01.41.03 # <[Franklin]> it seems like an awful waste otherwise 01.41.32 # <[Saint]> Because it doesn't make any sense to kludge this shit into an audio player when there's better options that pretty much everyone in the developed world has access to. 01.41.51 # <[Franklin]> it's a nice feature to have 01.41.59 # <[Franklin]> then why put games on *phones*?! 01.42.19 # <[Franklin]> phones are used to call people!!! 01.42.23 # <[Saint]> ...because that's a device where such things actually make sense? 01.42.26 # <[Franklin]> why kludge *games* onto *phones*!? 01.42.40 # <[Franklin]> see, you need to be more open to new ideas :) 01.42.47 # <[Saint]> You seem to forget that first and formost, Rockbox is an _audio player_. 01.42.54 # * foolsh is not a hater, if runs code it's a computer to him 01.43.05 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: and it's a great one 01.43.07 # <[Saint]> And a large majority of people couldn;t care less about plugins 01.43.10 # <[Franklin]> so why not make it do other stuff? 01.43.21 # <[Saint]> see above 01.43.26 # becuase you can 01.43.33 # <[Saint]> That's not a valid reason. 01.43.37 # <[Franklin]> it is 01.43.37 # <[Saint]> I suspect you know that. 01.43.46 # <[Franklin]> 100% valid 01.43.48 # <[Saint]> It most certainly is not. 01.43.57 # <[Franklin]> why put games on computers? 01.44.02 # <[Saint]> Just because it can do something doesn't mean its a good idea or that it should do it. 01.44.06 # <[Franklin]> computers should be used for business! 01.44.07 # <[Franklin]> not games! 01.44.14 # <[Franklin]> why have games at all?! 01.44.30 # <[Saint]> I am so close to muting you its not funny. 01.44.41 # * [Franklin] is trying to make a point 01.45.44 # <[Saint]> A stupid one. 01.45.45 # Games are for fun. If the game is hard to play because it's crammed onto a tiny screen on a processor that's barely powerful enough to play it, what fun is the game? 01.45.57 # <[Saint]> You want to open the doors up to anything and everything just because you can. 01.46.01 # <[Saint]> And its fucking stupid. 01.46.07 # <[Saint]> Its an audio player. 01.46.26 # <[Franklin]> well, for great big devices with great big screens that can run games perfectly well 01.46.36 # <[Franklin]> games are *wonderful* 01.46.44 # <[Saint]> We don't support any of those... 01.46.49 # <[Franklin]> ipod classic 01.46.53 # <[Franklin]> nice color lcd 01.46.57 # <[Saint]> 240x320 is "great big"? 01.47.01 # <[Saint]> hahaha...ok. 01.47.03 # <[Franklin]> lol big enough 01.47.14 # <[Franklin]> VGA was only 200x320 01.47.38 # <[Saint]> That's nice, but, we're well past that. 01.48.06 # <[Saint]> As I said, almost everyone has a device in their pockets that is infinitely better suited for these tasks. Has networking, etc. etc. etc. 01.48.46 # <[Franklin]> what happens when that dies? 01.48.47 # <[Saint]> If this was a decade ago, my position would be very different. 01.48.52 # <[Saint]> But, its not. 01.50.00 # I disagree some what with [Saint] if a device can do something and do it well enough to be usable, then whats the harm 01.50.06 # <[Franklin]> exactly 01.50.09 # <[Saint]> Why does someone want to play on their tiny DAP screen when they can fire up scamVM or a native port on their smartphone, readily available from ? 01.50.16 # <[Franklin]> scamVM lol 01.50.22 # <[Saint]> *scum 01.50.22 # I still like having the ability to make phone calls on my phone, but the battery dies too quickly when the same device is used to play games. That said, I just can't see playing a game on something as tiny as my Clip Zip. 01.50.27 # <[Franklin]> scumm 01.50.41 # <[Franklin]> but what if its not a tiny device? 01.51.06 # <[Saint]> foolsh: I think that's all very well and good only if it doesn't shit on the party for those who don't care about it. 01.51.14 # <[Saint]> WHich, in this case, is the majority I feel. 01.51.30 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: I'd disagree 01.51.42 # <[Saint]> Well, we've established that fact. 01.51.44 # <[Franklin]> plenty of people use rockbox just for the games 01.51.52 # * [Franklin] 01.51.57 # deaf people 01.51.58 # <[Saint]> Prove it. 01.52.07 # <[Franklin]> some use it for games and music 01.52.09 # * foolsh couldn't help himself and feels bad now 01.52.33 # <[Franklin]> it's nice to be able to visualize music with a starfield 01.52.45 # <[Franklin]> or just play 2048 01.53.16 # the gameboy titles I could have as a child cause I was poor 01.53.16 # <[Saint]> errr...since when has starfield been a visualizer? 01.53.22 # couldn't 01.53.35 # <[Saint]> that's another "infinitely better suited for a smartphone" case. 01.53.53 # I disagree 01.53.54 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: it is 01.54.21 # for me at least 01.54.26 # <[Franklin]> now I gotta prove it... 01.54.28 # <[Franklin]> ok 01.54.34 # so whats the harm 01.54.42 # <[Franklin]> line 231 01.54.46 # <[Franklin]> starfield.c:231 01.54.51 Quit shamus (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01.55.04 Join shamus [0] (~shmaus@ip-206-192-193-180.marylandheights.ip.cablemo.net) 01.55.10 # <[Franklin]> it calculates the peaks and makes the stars pulse to the music 01.56.58 # <[Saint]> I dislike saying it, but, you should probably look at forking if you're going to want to continually try and add plugins that the majority are going to see as being largely irrelevant. 01.57.13 # <[Saint]> Then this discussion won't need to play out weekly. 01.57.30 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: I'd like to avoid that 01.57.38 # <[Saint]> Because you'll keep hitting people like me that don't see the point of adding functionality just because you can. 01.57.49 # <[Franklin]> no one wants to fork 01.58.13 # <[Franklin]> at least not yet... :( 01.58.20 # <[Franklin]> :D 01.58.46 # <[Saint]> GNU LibreBox 01.59.09 # <[Franklin]> ? 01.59.45 # <[Franklin]> that's a rockbox fork? 01.59.54 # <[Saint]> No. 02.00.09 # <[Franklin]> so why spam the channel with it? 02.00.37 # <[Saint]> Spam the channel? Cute. 02.00.58 # * foolsh supposes the tight integration of plugins with the core is more problematic than anything else 02.00.59 # <[Saint]> Its all very well to feel like you're losing an argument, but, being an asshole about it isn;t a solution. 02.01.18 # It doesn't have to be such a point of contention 02.01.28 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: like what? 02.01.54 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: well, we disagree 02.01.57 # <[Saint]> foolsh: indeed - some plugins have gone awry 02.02.01 # <[Franklin]> I like plugins, you don't 02.02.08 # <[Saint]> very tightly coupled to the core. 02.02.09 # there must be a happy place 02.02.19 # <[Franklin]> not much more to say, is there? 02.02.42 Quit zoktar (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02.02.55 # <[Saint]> You can like them all you want, its when you try pushing them into the core we'll have real difficulties. 02.03.09 # * [Franklin] never has 02.03.14 # <[Franklin]> and never will, it's too ugly! 02.03.15 # <[Saint]> While they're sitting on gerrit being harmless, I couldn;t care less. 02.03.32 # <[Saint]> Once there's a merge request, I'll care more. 02.03.37 # * [Franklin] is confuzzled 02.03.49 # <[Franklin]> what are we talking about here? 02.04.02 # Couldn't some things be implemented in lua and then just downloaded into Rockbox by those who want them? 02.04.12 # <[Franklin]> the-kyle: simple stuff, yes 02.04.19 # <[Saint]> simple stuff, sure. 02.04.22 Join zoktar [0] (~zoktar@unaffiliated/zoktar) 02.04.48 # <[Franklin]> those with a complexity level of about 2048 02.04.50 # <[Franklin]> no more 02.05.01 # <[Franklin]> except does lua support bitmaps? 02.05.27 # Yeah, I guess it wouldn't work so well for games and such, but that becomes problematic as Rockbox would get larger and larger because of all the integrated games. 02.05.58 # <[Franklin]> the-kyle: some are quite useless... rockblox1d 02.06.36 # * [Franklin] has a name for a possible fork: GameBox 02.07.01 # <[Franklin]> it's rockbox without the "useless" music junk :P 02.07.06 # <[Franklin]> lol 02.07.40 # It would be nice if some plugs were pulled into rockbox core as utilities/applications, such as mpegplayer and a few others, and all the demos and games dropped into they're own subproject some how 02.07.59 # rockbox would be pure 02.07.59 # <[Franklin]> mpegplayer really should be integrated into core 02.08.14 # as plugins could exist as they plese 02.08.19 # <[Franklin]> same with other "integrated" plugins 02.08.19 # please* 02.08.20 # <[Franklin]> credits 02.08.40 # <[Franklin]> but then again, the modularity is good to an extent 02.09.31 # * [Franklin] would like to see mpegplayer integrated into the core though 02.10.02 # why are the plugins versioned the way they are? it seems they could go by major versions 02.10.15 Quit sakax (Remote host closed the connection) 02.10.17 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: I think its by plugin API versions 02.10.21 # ah no the memory layout 02.10.23 # <[Franklin]> let me see 02.10.51 # <[Franklin]> yeah its by api versions 02.11.04 # <[Franklin]> and target ids, of course 02.11.18 # <[Franklin]> plugin.c:882 02.14.42 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: we must share some common ground 02.15.17 # <[Saint]> I highly doubt it. My main menu doesn't even contain a plugins entry. 02.16.13 # <[Franklin]> yes, you told me that 02.16.46 # * [Franklin] wonders how [Saint] became an Expert 02.17.16 # <[Saint]> ~6 years of dedication to a community 02.17.22 # <[Saint]> that's how. 02.17.34 # * [Franklin] thanks [Saint] for his dedication 02.17.50 # <[Franklin]> really truly 02.18.52 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: you're at 1337 posts! 02.23.04 # <[Franklin]> anyway, good night 02.23.06 Quit [Franklin] (Remote host closed the connection) 02.29.36 Join byteframe_ [0] (~byteframe@unaffiliated/byteframe) 02.31.09 Quit byteframe (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02.40.26 Quit fs-bluebot (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 02.41.02 Quit bluebrother^ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 02.42.58 Join bluebrother [0] (~dom@rockbox/developer/bluebrother) 02.47.25 Join fs-bluebot [0] (~fs-bluebo@g224236151.adsl.alicedsl.de) 02.56.45 # franklin needs to do a hardware port, then he'll appreciate/understand why (the way it is currently) we don't want a shit ton of plugins to port for every target, and perhaps that needs explained to him like he's five 02.57.48 # * foolsh nominates franklin to be maintainer of /extra-plugins/ 02.57.54 Join cmhobbs [0] (~cmhobbs@fsf/member/cmhobbs) 02.58.03 # ;) 02.58.50 # <[Saint]> The general embedded development philosophy seems largely lost 02.59.32 # actually the extra-plugins idea makes more sense the more I think about it 03.00.02 Quit AlexP (Remote host closed the connection) 03.00.13 # leave it to joe public to figure it out 03.03.41 # hmm yes the more I think about it, a separate /extra-plugins/ could be the happy place between keeping rockbox core pure and letting the children play 03.05.05 # rockbox devs wouldn't need to maintain it, leave that up to franklin ;) 03.24.06 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 04.12.24 Nick zirra-afk is now known as godzirra (~slooker@codeforvegas.org) 04.13.00 # Hey guys. 04.13.25 # So I'm trying to boot my ipod classic into the mode it needs to be in to install EmCore, but instead of DFU, it booted to UMSboot, but i t doesn't show as a drive in windows. 04.14.09 Quit foolsh (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 04.14.25 # Same with what I think is DFU mode. It makes the noise like I've got it plugged in 04.15.30 # <[Saint]> I think you're confused. 04.15.44 # <[Saint]> If you got to UMSboot, the time you needed to be in DFU mode is no over. 04.15.50 # Oh. 04.15.51 # Huh. 04.16.00 # <[Saint]> But, in saying that, this isn't the right place to handle this. 04.16.07 # Yeah, probably not. 04.16.17 # <[Saint]> emCORE/Freemyipod and Rockbox are entirely separate entities. 04.16.44 # yeah. I know. :/ Just trying to figure out what to do and i'm excited about getting rockbox back on an ipod. 04.18.23 # <[Saint]> While you're still here, I will say, though, that the Windows installation process is nightmarish and if you have access to a Linux distribution, I'd use it. 04.18.54 # <[Saint]> There's so many ways for the WIndows installation variants to go wrong its not even funny. 04.19.01 # <[Saint]> Its a miracle it works for anyone. 04.19.20 # Oh. okay. 04.19.24 # I have a linux laptop right here. 04.32.59 # Do you know if there's an EmCore channel? 04.33.54 Join JdGordon_ [0] (~jonno@ppp118-209-177-89.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net) 04.34.35 # <[Saint]> godzirra: what installatio instructions are you following? 04.34.54 # <[Saint]> The official documentation should have made you aware of such a channel's existence. 04.35.13 # <[Saint]> http://www.freemyipod.org/wiki/EmCORE_Installation 04.35.14 # Nope, it's a link of the main page, but I just found it. 04.35.17 Quit JdGordon (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 04.41.16 Quit amiconn (Disconnected by services) 04.41.16 Quit pixelma (Disconnected by services) 04.41.17 Join pixelma_ [0] (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.41.17 Join amiconn_ [0] (amiconn@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 04.41.19 Nick pixelma_ is now known as pixelma (pixelma@rockbox/staff/pixelma) 04.41.22 Nick amiconn_ is now known as amiconn (amiconn@rockbox/developer/amiconn) 04.41.51 Join foolsh [0] (~foolsh@c-24-11-243-148.hsd1.in.comcast.net) 05.02.38 Quit mc2739 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05.03.27 Join mc2739 [0] (~mc2739@rockbox/developer/mc2739) 05.13.10 # [Saint]: Got everything up and running. Thanks very much. 05.24.08 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 05.35.20 Quit cmhobbs (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05.48.23 Quit chrisb (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05.52.17 Quit TheSeven (Disconnected by services) 05.52.29 Join [7] [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/TheSeven) 05.55.23 Quit krnlyng (Quit: huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii) 05.55.42 Join krnlyng [0] (~liar@83.175.90.24) 06.47.46 # [Saint], well it wasn't "to" hard g#1036 06.47.49 # 3Gerrit review #1036 at http://gerrit.rockbox.org/r/1036 : 3Plugins-extra: Add support for separate extra plugins repository by Benjamin Brown 06.48.09 # I haven't tested it yet 06.49.44 # <[Saint]> I'm not entirely sure what problem that fixes. 06.49.57 # <[Saint]> If someone is building themselves anyway, this is already trivial. 06.50.03 # <[Saint]> What am I missing? 06.50.14 # off loads the plugin porting to the plugin writers 06.50.45 # keeps rockbox from accumulating cruft 06.51.04 # makes it easy in a way 06.51.07 # <[Saint]> But its only useful to those who are building themselves. 06.51.33 # so 06.51.39 # :) 06.52.14 # <[Saint]> So, its not a problem (or, shouldn't be) for any of those people. 06.52.31 # no more "when is X going to get plugins" 06.53.08 # <[Saint]> ...is that a problem we have? 06.53.11 # <[Saint]> I was unaware. 06.53.26 # you're being cynical 06.53.49 # <[Saint]> Not deliberately. I genuinely don't see what issue this fixes. 06.53.59 # <[Saint]> It seems to address an issue that doesn't actually exist. 06.54.13 # I'm thinking ahead 06.54.23 # i solves franklin 06.54.42 # oboy I'm tired 06.55.54 # franklin will never stop writing plugins 06.56.20 # he didnt even have any music on his ipod 06.56.32 # he will never stop 06.59.14 Quit prof_wolfff (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 07.01.48 Join dfkt_ [0] (dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) 07.01.57 Quit dfkt (Disconnected by services) 07.02.13 Nick dfkt_ is now known as dfkt (dfkt@unaffiliated/dfkt) 07.17.20 # [Saint]: yes I see your point of view, but if this can evolve to something that rbutil takes care of, like it does themes, then it starts to get useful 07.18.12 # and not just for those who can build 07.18.25 # <[Saint]> It would need to touch the build system then, and we'd need to keep a cache of plugins that would quickly grow vast. 07.18.31 # <[Saint]> (due to plugins being versioned) 07.19.05 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@ppp118-209-180-157.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net) 07.20.36 Quit JdGordon_ (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 07.21.46 # why are they versioned so strictly? 07.22.07 # seems like there's some room to wiggle there 07.22.28 # memory layout is it? 07.23.07 # <[Saint]> I honestly don't know. 07.23.58 Quit JdGordon (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 07.24.05 Join JdGordon [0] (~jonno@ppp118-209-221-248.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net) 07.24.09 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 07.41.06 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@m180.dkm.cz) 07.41.15 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@89-75-106-114.dynamic.chello.pl) 07.42.44 # Strict versioning is the consequence of how we call core functions from plugins. If rb struct changes pointer dereference will be all wrong. 08.08.30 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) 08.35.13 DEBUG Lost contact with server (snapshot: dancer.c line 124) 08.35.13 *** Cleanup 08.35.13 *** Cleanup 08.35.13 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 08.35.13 *** Exit 08.35.15 *** Started Dancer V4.16 08.35.15 DEBUG gethostbyname(2) failed for irc.freenode.net (Success) (snapshot: netstuff.c line 99) 08.35.15 DEBUG gethostbyname(2) failed for irc.freenode.net (Success) (snapshot: netstuff.c line 99) 08.35.15 *** Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667 08.35.15 *** Logfile for #rockbox started 08.37.43 *** Cleanup 08.37.43 *** Cleanup 08.37.43 *** No seen item changed, no save performed. 08.37.43 *** Exit 08.37.48 *** Started Dancer V4.16 08.37.48 *** Connected to irc.freenode.net on port 6667 08.37.48 *** Logfile for #rockbox started 08.39.17 Mode "logbot- :+i" by logbot- 08.39.22 *** Server message 501: 'logbot- :Unknown MODE flag' 08.39.23 Join logbot- [0] 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Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@bsod.rz.tu-clausthal.de) 09.23.53 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 09.52.29 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@wced-19-217-32-147.feld.cvut.cz) 10.19.25 Join wodz [0] (~wodz@iwl138.internetdsl.tpnet.pl) 10.37.50 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 10.37.56 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@sphinx.lix.polytechnique.fr) 10.37.56 Quit pamaury (Changing host) 10.37.56 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 10.45.41 # It's much deeper than the rb struct 10.46.40 # That one is handled with the plugin API versioning we have. What's *not* handled is data structs changing 10.46.47 # And that's a tricky one to fix 10.49.35 Quit scorche` (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10.49.48 # gevaerts: which data structures you have in a mind? 10.51.21 # wodz: I seem to vaguely remember problems with struct screen 10.51.34 # Or viewport 10.52.00 # don't we access this through wrapper provided in core? 10.52.16 Join scorche [0] (~scorche@rockbox/administrator/scorche) 10.52.17 # Not really 10.52.26 # Well, definitely not in all cases 10.52.29 # ah, that explains the problem 10.54.07 # Things like "struct viewport" are accessed directly from both plugins and core 10.55.11 Join bertrik [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) 10.55.25 # And it's not at all trivial to know when changing some of those things in core will affect the plugin api 10.55.51 # sure, I was under impression that we wrap such things 10.57.02 # I'm not actually sure if the extra overhead of wrapping wouldn't be too much 10.57.43 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 11.02.09 # I am not saying we should do that 11.03.00 # I realise that, I'm just wondering :) 11.03.22 # And to be honest, I haven't really seen the need yet 11.03.57 # <[Saint]> right. largely a non-problem. 11.15.12 Join lebellium [0] (~chatzilla@80.215.199.57) 11.15.23 # When we talk about plugins - current state of all-or-nothing is pain in the butt when doing new port 11.16.06 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@wced-19-217-32-147.feld.cvut.cz) 11.35.13 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 11.47.05 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@wced-19-217-32-147.feld.cvut.cz) 12.23.47 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 12.34.45 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 12.37.54 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 12.42.34 Join ZincAlloy [0] (~Adium@pD9EEB51A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) 12.51.14 Quit foolsh (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 12.56.38 Join foolsh [0] (~foolsh@c-24-11-243-148.hsd1.in.comcast.net) 12.58.58 Join mortalis [0] (~kvirc@212.44.150.238) 13.02.01 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~lemonboy@unaffiliated/thelemonman) 13.06.28 Join pamaury_ [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 13.12.43 Quit Galois (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 13.12.59 Join Galois [0] (~djao@efnet.math.uwaterloo.ca) 13.14.30 Join sakax [0] (~sakax@unaffiliated/sakax) 13.17.17 Quit Galois (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14.02.01 Quit lebellium (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14.05.44 Join lebellium [0] (~chatzilla@i16-les01-ntr-212-194-176-149.sfr.lns.abo.bbox.fr) 14.09.30 Quit Strife89 (Quit: Leaving) 14.18.34 Quit prof_wolfff (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14.22.05 Quit pamaury_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14.31.48 Join prof_wolfff [0] (~prof_wolf@82.158.1.206.dyn.user.ono.com) 14.37.57 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 15.10.24 Quit wodz (Quit: Leaving) 15.16.33 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@wced-144-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz) 15.43.49 Join edhelas [0] (~edhelas@193.172.124.224) 15.54.36 Quit sakax (Remote host closed the connection) 16.00.24 Join amayer [0] (~amayer@mail.weberadvertising.com) 16.05.42 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16.14.10 Join polemon__ [0] (~polemon@g231140190.adsl.alicedsl.de) 16.16.53 Quit polemon_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16.17.11 Quit kugel (Quit: leaving) 16.18.14 Quit pamaury (Remote host closed the connection) 16.20.56 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@wced-144-219-32-147.feld.cvut.cz) 16.21.27 Quit TheLemonMan (Remote host closed the connection) 16.24.05 Join kugel_ [0] (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) 16.24.33 Join JdGordon_ [0] (~jonno@ppp118-209-132-123.lns20.mel8.internode.on.net) 16.27.11 Quit JdGordon (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16.38.01 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 16.42.15 Join fishshop [0] (57702faa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.112.47.170) 16.42.23 Quit fishshop (Client Quit) 16.43.40 Join fishshop [0] (57702faa@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.112.47.170) 16.43.49 # Patched xworld on my Fuze+ runs really well. how do i get the sound to work? and is wolfenstien ready yet? 16.43.53 Quit fishshop (Client Quit) 16.47.16 Quit Bluefoxicy (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 16.48.25 Join Bluefoxicy [0] (~Bluefoxic@c-76-21-157-203.hsd1.md.comcast.net) 17.07.05 Quit krabador (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 17.27.37 Quit petur (Quit: Page closed) 17.32.21 Quit mc2739 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17.33.17 Quit xorly (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 17.34.12 Join mc2739 [0] (~mc2739@rockbox/developer/mc2739) 17.41.07 Quit edhelas (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 17.46.11 Join AlexP [0] (~alex@rockbox/staff/AlexP) 18.22.40 # why would people want to play games on a Fuze+ or an iPod Classic? 18.22.46 # I don't get it 18.23.38 # because it's fun to play on a device which wasn't meant for that when developed 18.24.40 # Doom on the Clip is the best experience ever 18.24.43 # more than once? for more than 5 minutes? 18.25.25 # 5 minutes sounds good. It's the "wow" effect 18.26.42 # once the wow effect is over, you'd better play on a gaming device 18.36.13 # I admit, I have played the gameboy title "dragon warrior" to completion on the fuze+, working on dragon warrior II currently 18.37.05 # but mostly, it's just there when I have nothing else to do 18.38.02 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 18.44.43 Quit einhirn (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18.49.30 Quit mortalis (Remote host closed the connection) 18.50.40 Quit krnlyng (Quit: huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii) 18.58.21 Join einhirn [0] (~Miranda@pD952CC4F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) 19.05.09 Join TheLemonMan [0] (~lemonboy@unaffiliated/thelemonman) 19.06.09 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 19.14.35 Quit einhirn (Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org) 19.15.47 Join y4n [0] (~y4n@unaffiliated/y4ndexx) 19.34.26 Join xorly [0] (~xorly@m180.dkm.cz) 19.43.11 Join Galois [0] (djao@efnet.math.uwaterloo.ca) 19.50.40 Join rela [0] (~x@pdpc/supporter/active/rela) 20.38.05 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 20.40.28 Quit krabador (Quit: Sto andando via) 20.41.59 Join krabador [0] (~krabador@unaffiliated/krabador) 20.56.54 Nick kugel_ is now known as kugel (~kugel@rockbox/developer/kugel) 20.57.26 Join pamaury [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/pamaury) 21.18.57 # <[Saint]> There's only a VERY small subset of games that even make any sense to play on 21.19.04 # <[Saint]> Primarily turn based RPGs. 21.19.27 # <[Saint]> Things that don't require responsive, timely, or intricate button combinations. 21.19.38 # <[Saint]> (or, more than one button press simultaneously) 21.29.07 # yeah totally, there's just those so much useless, or should I say unpopular plugins that have to ported every single time I was trying to minimize them, I was just kicking around the idea last night, since you and franky were in such a mood of contention yesterday 21.30.57 # I've actually played the jewels-like game on a rockbox device 21.31.28 # actually, I do like that one 21.32.13 Quit y4n (Quit: HOLY SHIT! WE'RE ALL JUST LIVING ON A GINORMOUS FUCKING SPINNING ROCK FLOATING THROUGH SPACE CIRCLING A BIG FUCKING BALL OF FIRE!!!) 21.34.10 Join petur [0] (~petur@rockbox/developer/petur) 21.36.26 # But If any contention was taking place before the games and demos actually made it into the rockbox tree, the "why do X on a DAP, it's a DAP" would be an argument with some weight 21.41.00 # because X runs on $other_DAP too! 21.55.31 Quit pamaury (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22.01.31 Quit bertrik (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 22.01.44 Join bertrik [0] (~quassel@rockbox/developer/bertrik) 22.04.56 Quit rela (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22.30.04 Join YellowBoy [0] (57402454@gateway/web/freenode/ip.87.64.36.84) 22.30.16 # hello 22.30.33 # any devs in here? 22.31.46 # <[Saint]> Just ask your question. 22.31.52 # <[Saint]> If someone can help, they will. 22.35.16 # <[Saint]> YellowBoy: ...did you actually have a question? 22.37.36 # in Soviet Russia, the question has _you_! 22.38.10 *** Saving seen data "./dancer.seen" 22.39.37 # Sorry, was idle. I'd like to know what are your criteria to work on a precise device. I'm asking this because I've got a Lenco Xemio-955 and although the firmware is alright, Rockbox seems to... rock. 22.40.40 # I'll understand if the answer is "no, won't work on it", it's just a request I guess. 22.40.41 # <[Saint]> We don't do device requests. Each and every device port occurs because a developer owns that particular device and wanted it to happen. 22.40.54 # <[Saint]> Basically, the best candidate for this is you. 22.40.55 # iPod Nano ripoff 22.41.30 # Yeah, I see. I guess I'm gonna have to work it out myself. 22.41.39 # Thanks though. 22.41.44 # <[Saint]> YellowBoy: this ought to clue you in: 22.41.45 # <[Saint]> http://www.rockbox.org/wiki/NewPort 22.42.03 # <[Saint]> If it seems like a steep curve, its because...it is. 22.42.31 Join edhelas [0] (~edhelas@77-173-104-232.ip.telfort.nl) 22.42.50 # >You will need skills in electronics and embedded programming in C and assembler 22.42.55 # holy shit 22.43.07 # what'd you expect? 22.43.21 # Sorry for asking though I just noticed the bold text down there. 22.43.48 # Yeah, I guess something like that... 22.44.55 # <[Saint]> For a competent developer, with experience in bare metal embedded programming, a new port is multiple hundreds of hours work. 22.45.34 # <[Saint]> And that's if you're lucky enough to have datasheets for the components. 22.45.41 # heavy metal programming 22.45.47 # And all of that because companies won't allow you to choose what you want to run with your machine. 22.45.51 # wtf 22.45.53 # <[Saint]> If you don't, you can add a hundred hours or so of reverse engineering on top of that, 22.47.05 # <[Saint]> For someone who was literally just starting fresh and had to learn C and assembly as they go, its no exaggeration to state that its easily >1000 man hours work. 22.47.43 # Although of course nobody has actually kept track carefully :) 22.48.18 # <[Saint]> Nuts to that. I suspect if anyone did so they'd end up slashing their wrists. ;) 22.48.49 # <[Saint]> But, there's a lot of questions to answer about the device before one even gets to that stage. 22.49.03 # <[Saint]> If you don't actually have a way in...you're pretty much fucked. 22.49.09 # It has to be said though that things vary. If a device is very similar to another already supported one, it gets a lot easier 22.49.26 # <[Saint]> Right. That's true. 22.49.54 # <[Saint]> First thing would be to assess what hardware you're working with. 22.49.55 Quit edhelas (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22.50.16 # <[Saint]> Then establish the relationship between the device and its firmware upgrade process (if such a thing even exists) 22.50.34 # <[Saint]> Then see if the image is signed or in any way verified... 22.50.52 # <[Saint]> NewPort page has it covered. It seems like a lot of stuff. Because, it is. 22.52.33 # They say they have firmware updates but I see no such thing on the net... Although they must have a update protocol because the system partition is visible to me but I can't mount it. 22.56.22 # <[Saint]> Gah. 22.56.32 # <[Saint]> Pretty much impossible to find any hardware info on the thing. 22.57.07 # <[Saint]> Not really a concern unless you're actually interested in going forward. 22.58.47 # The worst is that I'm probably gonna have to do all from scratch, there seems to be only one touch screen player supported... 22.59.34 # Yeah well, I don't think it'll be worth the effort. Thanks anyways. 23.00.20 # I'll eventually look it up some more on my own but I don't think that I'll get somewhere... 23.00.48 # <[Saint]> If you do want a Rockbox supported device, I highly recomment the iPod Video or iPod Classic 23.01.07 # <[Saint]> The latter is foolishly expensive now because it got decomissioned and now everyone wants one. 23.01.24 # <[Saint]> The former is...difficult...to find, but, still in the realms of possibility. 23.02.08 # <[Saint]> There's also they el'cheapo Sansa Happy Meal devices (Clip, Clip+, Clip Zip, etc.) 23.02.39 Join edhelas [0] (~edhelas@77-173-104-232.ip.telfort.nl) 23.02.53 # go with a fuze variant if you want a better screen size 23.03.40 # <[Saint]> The Fuzes are getting harder to find now too. 23.03.47 # <[Saint]> In good condition, at least. 23.06.11 # Thanks, should have took a look here before buying my device. I got pretty interested by the Sansa ones. Although the screen is small, I heard it has some amazing features and I liked the mixtape and ALiEn themes. 23.07.00 # <[Saint]> The only issue I have with them is that they feel cheap. 23.07.04 # <[Saint]> Disposable. 23.07.16 # <[Saint]> They don't _feel_ like a well made, built to last device. 23.07.18 Join stripwax [0] (~Miranda@rockbox/developer/stripwax) 23.07.20 # <[Saint]> (because they aren't) 23.08.04 # <[Saint]> They have thin plasticy cases that creak under slight pressure, and...don't even get me started on those clips, they're so fragile they break if you look at them the wrong way. 23.09.12 # What you'd recommend then? iPod's are quite expensive even now... 23.11.26 # <[Saint]> I prefer the iPods because of their build quality. 23.11.58 # <[Saint]> HiFiman have excellent build quality as well. 23.12.14 # I want to change my firmware because it's ugly and contains spelling errors... I have not fully tested it yet but I suspect that it'll have bugs. 23.12.18 # <[Saint]> As well as iBasso, but the latter two are _very_ expensive devices. 23.13.12 # <[Saint]> The iPod Video 5/5.5G isn't /that/ expensive, considering. 23.13.12 # The Apple firmware is not ugly and glitchy. iOS is, however. 23.13.31 # <[Saint]> Impossible to buy new, but, they're fairly available in the secondhand market. 23.13.46 # <[Saint]> The Apple firmware has its quirks too. 23.13.57 # <[Saint]> If it didn't, Rockbox wouldn't exist for it. 23.14.31 # <[Saint]> Rockbox pretty much exists because of manufacturers making such a hilariously broken operating system that it renders perfectly good hardware basically unusable. 23.15.10 # I believe you, but I can't buy new ones of those and I bought a new player because my iPod Touch left me recently. 23.15.13 # <[Saint]> That's been the case for almost every device port. Thogh, some of them the original firmware really wasn't /that/ bad and it was more of a "because I can" thing. 23.15.46 # Old ones tend to last less for obvious reasons. 23.16.29 # <[Saint]> If you're lucky, you could claim the device to be defective or state that it doesn't meet expectations and return it to the place of purchase. 23.16.39 # <[Saint]> (I get the impression this was purchased recently?) 23.16.51 # Yes. 23.17.05 # But they'll check if it's true. 23.17.51 # And they don't accept returns once out of the box 23.18.02 # <[Saint]> ...wow. 23.18.05 # Ridiculous, I know. 23.18.19 # <[Saint]> That's, uhhhh, quite different to the way things work here. Wow. 23.18.42 # They don't want to lose their precious money. 23.18.45 # <[Saint]> Suck. 23.22.29 Join Strife89 [0] (~Strife89@2602:306:bce1:8c20:176:e808:79bf:7439) 23.23.00 # Yep. Still, the firmware doesn't totally suck: it has nice features like Flash compatibility (even offline, I really didn't expect that one) and it reads FLAC (that was a must for me but the retarded vendors had no idea if there even WAS a single player compatible with that format in their shop) 23.23.31 # It could be better though. It could have Doom ;) 23.23.39 # <[Saint]> FLAC on such a low capacity device is an...interesting choice. 23.24.33 # I don't know how it'll turn out but I don't want to convert my whole library to mp3, you see. 23.24.40 # <[Saint]> I'd be willing to bet that it couldn't recreate the stream accurately enough for it to make any realistic difference, or even a perceptible one (in double blind testing) 23.24.59 # <[Saint]> LAME has come a looooooooong way. 23.26.09 # <[Saint]> Most people can't discern a difference between FLAC and mp3 320 with a modern LAME implementation these days. 23.26.51 # <[Saint]> Those who can can usually only do so with specific reference tracks they've trained themselves to hear specific encoding artefacts in. 23.27.07 Quit amayer (Quit: Leaving) 23.30.30 Join franklin [0] (~franklin@cpe-071-071-039-006.triad.res.rr.com) 23.30.30 Nick franklin is now known as [Franklin] (~franklin@cpe-071-071-039-006.triad.res.rr.com) 23.33.20 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: I'm having mixed feelings about having a "repo" for plugins 23.33.45 # * [Franklin] thinks it unnecessary complexity 23.34.24 # <[Saint]> The fact that it would need to be tied to the build system makes it so, yes. 23.34.34 # <[Saint]> Well, many facts make it so. 23.36.06 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: any other ways this could be implemented? 23.36.16 # <[Franklin]> perhaps tying "extra" plugins to the "fullinstall" option? 23.36.40 # <[Saint]> If its only for those building for themselves anyway, its largely useless. 23.37.13 # <[Saint]> It'd only be marginally useful (IMO) if it had rbutil and build system integration. 23.37.21 # <[Franklin]> anyway, even the most extravagant plugins are *tiny* 23.37.26 # <[Franklin]> xworld for ipod classic is 52K 23.37.54 # <[Franklin]> doom is only ~390K 23.38.47 # <[Franklin]> in fact the "clock" plugin is actually the biggest plugin there is! 23.38.57 # <[Franklin]> 472K for classic 23.39.53 # <[Franklin]> foolsh: you're going to have to clearly define what an "extra" plugin is 23.41.38 # <[Franklin]> it makes no sense to do it by memory usage 23.41.50 # <[Franklin]> because if people don't run the plugin, it won't matter 23.41.58 # <[Franklin]> so then it'd be by binary size, right? 23.42.03 # <[Saint]> That's a fallacy. 23.42.15 # <[Franklin]> how so? 23.42.40 # <[Saint]> That if people don't run the plugin, it won't matter. 23.42.45 # <[Saint]> Its demonstrably untrue. 23.42.51 # <[Saint]> But, we've had this discussion. 23.45.38 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: so you're saying that memory usage would be the deciding factor? 23.45.43 # <[Franklin]> that makes no sense 23.46.03 # <[Saint]> Are you just inventing things now? 23.46.09 # <[Saint]> Where the fuck did I say that? 23.46.32 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: I assumed that since bin size wasn't, memory usage was 23.46.38 # <[Franklin]> how else can it be decided? 23.47.36 Quit YellowBoy (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 23.49.26 # <[Franklin]> would you go as far as to disable all plugins entirely? 23.50.43 # <[Saint]> Not the viewers or encoders. They serve a useful purpose. 23.50.56 # <[Saint]> But, if I had my way, the games and demos would be out on their ass, yes. 23.51.01 Join ZincAlloy1 [0] (~Adium@pD9EEB51A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) 23.52.12 Quit Strife89 (Quit: Leaving) 23.52.52 # <[Franklin]> [Saint]: well then... :) 23.54.01 # <[Franklin]> I can't say I agree with that :) 23.54.03 Join ZincAlloy2 [0] (~Adium@pD9EE94E6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) 23.54.26 Quit ZincAlloy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23.55.41 Quit krabador (Quit: Sto andando via) 23.55.52 Quit ZincAlloy1 (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23.58.11 Quit TheLemonMan (Quit: leaving)